Sticky Post for discussion - Fitness and Conditioning

g'em

Following on from the Feedback Thread we had last month I requested some submissions for potential new Sticky posts. Below is one of the submissions from eroo on Fitness and Conditioning. As promised I'm opening it up for discussion to the floor. But be warned, there will be zero tolerance of muppetry, abuse, flaming, trolling or idiocy here. I'll delete anything that needs nuking. If you don't agree with something that's ok, but debate it, don't just argue for the sake of it.

And of course, thank you to eroo for taking the time to write this!

The basics of fitness and conditioning for sports

For any sport, conditioning is a key part of preparing for competition. There are 3 main phases regarding conditioning: pre season, in season and off season.

Pre season is essentially where you lay the foundations. In season is where you maintain the gains made in pre season. Off season is the opportunity to recover and lessen the training load.

Pre Season
For most teams, pre season lasts roughly 8 weeks(12 is preferable) so while it is a tough phase in the playing year it does pay off. Being physically prepared for the season will help prevent injuries and lessen fatigue build up, as well as improve confidence! Here we will look at training the following areas; Aerobic , Anaerobic, Speed, Strength, Agility and Flexibility.

Aerobic: Firstly, every player should engage in some form of general aerobic conditioning 3 times a week for 30 minutes or more i.e. running, cycling, swimming. This builds a base of fitness from which to progress. After 2-3 weeks, anaerobic conditioning can begin so replace 1 of the aerobic sessions with anaerobic(below).

Anaerobic: Sprints will be your friend (a mean one) here. Multi sprint stamina is important for field sports as you will sprint many times in a match at mostly short distances. The number of reps and sets here should be quite high. The sprints do not have to be 100% each time, but the rest periods quite short. An example of a multi sprint session would be:
3 sets of 8x30m with a 15 second rest between each sprint, and 2 minutes rest between sets.

Speed: Training for speed requires short distance sprints at full pace, with longer recovery between reps and sets. Recovery is essential for development of speed as fatigue restricts quality speed training!! An example would be:
4 x 25m sprints with 3 minute rest between each sprint.

Agility: To work on agility, emphasise change of direction in your speed drills with zig zags and criss crosses etc
You can work on both stamina(aerobic + anaerobic) and speed in the one training session, but ALWAYS train speed at the beginning of the session and stamina at the end.

Strength: For most players this area is neglected. We will assume you have limited or no experience with free weights here. As a result, circuits are a great way of learning technique whilst conditioning the muscles involved in sport. Exercises such as the squat, lunge, shoulder press, bench press, back extension and leg raises are just a few that beginners can utilise before moving onto more difficult lifts, and some day the Olympic lifts. I will not devise a circuit here as the options are limitless if you look online. Just remember the focus is on general strength training of the muscles involved in most sports. Rep ranges should be 8-12 for this. You should aim for 2-3 circuits a week. As you progress in your experience over time, you can then move on to max strength, hypertrophy and power training with weights. But for now, focus on that solid foundation.
If you are at a sufficient level of strength training, check out the other lifting threads rather than repeating that info here!

Flexibility: This is an area always overlooked by players. This can be dealt with by stretching before(dynamic) and after(static) training or competitions. Dynamic stretching involves lightly stretching muscles, holding each stretch for 5-10 secs. Static stretching involves holding each stretch for 15-20 secs. The latter is best for developing flexibility, and can be done on rest days too.

All of this combined can make for a busy training week!! To show you how to place it all together, here is an example of a typical pre season training week:

Mon: Circuits

Tues: Speed/Agility + Anaerobic

Wed: Aerobic

Thurs: Rest

Fri: Circuits

Sat: Speed/Agility + Aerobic

Sun: Rest


In Season
As previously stated, this phase of the year is all about maintenance while the focus is on competition.

Aerobic: With matches each week and training sessions comprising of anaerobic and speed work, aerobic conditioning lessens. No more than 1 run/swim/cycle a week is necessary, unless you’re aerobic conditioning is poor.

Anaerobic: You should, like aerobic, be at a sufficient level of anaerobic fitness. However, 1-2 short sessions a week of multi sprint training will be necessary. The number of sets should be reduced compared to pre season.. remember, you are playing matches for 70/80/90 minutes depending on your sport.

Speed: Ideally, you should be doing speed training at the start of your team training sessions or before your aerobic or anaerobic conditioning. The process is the same as pre season.. low reps and sets with longer recovery. Aim for 1 speed session a week.

Agility: Same as Pre Season, but limit to once a week.

Strength: Whereas in pre season you were completing 2-3 sessions a week, for maintenance during in season you should complete 1 circuits/lifting session a week.. remember.. MAINTENANCE.

Flexibility: Remains same as pre season, and will be same for Off Season.

Note: During this phase of training you will also be competing so the goal is maintaining your fitness and strength levels. It is important to avoid overtraining here.

A typical week:

Mon: Rest

Tues: Speed + Anaerobic

Wed: Circuits

Thurs: Aerobic

Fri: Rest

Sat: Match/Rest

Sun: Match/Rest

Off Season

This phase of training is essentially a recovery phase. It may last 4-8 weeks depending on your team/coaches preference. Training loads are reduced here significantly to allow the body to recover from the competitive year.

Aerobic: Aim for 2 sessions a week to maintain that aerobic base

Anaerobic: Aim for 1 combined speed/agility/anaerobic session a week

Speed: See above

Agility: See above

Strength: Aim for 1-2 circuits/lifting sessions a week

Flexibility: Remains same as pre and in season

A typical off season week:

M: Aerobic

T: Circuits

W: Speed/Agility/Anaerobic

T: Rest

F: Circuits

S: Aerobic

S: Rest


As an aside, I have left out training for Power simply because this is the basics for beginners. You MUST have a high level of strength before undertaking power training with weights etc.

As with all training, know your limits! Don't start off lifting heavy or running long distances or doing too many sprints. You know best what you can and can't handle so pace yourself; and preferably make contact with a Strength and Conditioning coach.

Barry.Oglesby

I said I'd reply constructively to intelligent posts, so here we go.

Firstly eroo thanks for your time in writing this. I'm going to take issue with some of the points you've raised.

Aerobic: Firstly, every player should engage in some form of general aerobic conditioning 3 times a week for 30 minutes or more i.e. running, cycling, swimming. This builds a base of fitness from which to progress. After 2-3 weeks, anaerobic conditioning can begin so replace 1 of the aerobic sessions with anaerobic(below).

The "aerobic base" thing is a common misconception. They definitely don't need to be doing it 3 times per week and I would argue that game play drills and short matches are a far better method of ensuring a good aerobic base than jogging. Give a 30 year old player 30minutes of high impact running 3 times per week and see what you get after 4 weeks.

Anaerobic: Sprints will be your friend (a mean one) here. Multi sprint stamina is important for field sports as you will sprint many times in a match at mostly short distances. The number of reps and sets here should be quite high. The sprints do not have to be 100% each time, but the rest periods quite short. An example of a multi sprint session would be:
3 sets of 8x30m with a 15 second rest between each sprint, and 2 minutes rest between sets.

More or less agree here. What's the thinking behind your rest period.

Speed: Training for speed requires short distance sprints at full pace, with longer recovery between reps and sets. Recovery is essential for development of speed as fatigue restricts quality speed training!! An example would be:
4 x 25m sprints with 3 minute rest between each sprint.

Disagree. what most people call speed isn't speed at all but acceleration. That's better built in the weight room.

Strength: For most players this area is neglected. We will assume you have limited or no experience with free weights here. As a result, circuits are a great way of learning technique whilst conditioning the muscles involved in sport.

Fundamentally disagree. Circuits are an aggregator. Your weaker guys get a bit stronger. Your middle guys stay about the same and your stronger guys get weaker. Using your assumption that weight training hasn't yet been used then why not just get them in the weight room? Circuits are good for kids, and even at 14/15 a lot of kids need extra loading.

As you progress in your experience over time, you can then move on to max strength, hypertrophy and power training with weights. But for now, focus on that solid foundation.

Why can someone not hypertrophy or do max strength at an earlier stage?

As for "Flexibility" haven't you been reading the boards. Flexibility is old hat. If you want to be a trainer of champions you need to plagiarise people's mobility work asap or you run the risk of being behind the times!

Other than that I think your volume/intensity model is too low in season, particularly if you're using circuits. I think I know which course you've done! I recognise you're trying to condense this into one post which is always difficult. In my opinion, the canvas is too broad to condense this topic into one post and to do so would just be to dumb it down.

Perhaps a better approach would be to have a brief overview ind then some links to higher quality information for further reading?

d-gal

Much too broad a topic to cover properly. Very difficult to condense into one post.

Quick bullet points would be good

* Mobility and flexibility work is key all year round, an absolute must
* Most sports require just as much shoulder mobility work as hip mobility work so do not neglect them
* Aerobic work outside your team training is not your main focus. Your basic team training of match situations should cover your aerobic and build this sufficiently. In the off season maintain your aerobic fitness with 2-3 30min cardio sessions (beach runs being ideal for example)
* Ensure a good strength foundation in the weightsroom
* Circuits are not a solution for an athlete
* Reduce weight sessions during the season (2sessions roughly)
* Maintenance of your strength during the season is key so most of your weight sessions should focus on this
* In the weightsroom if you can cover the bigger lifts (squats, deadlifts etc.) you won't go far wrong
* Majority of your gains should come in the off season

I'm sure there is plenty more points I can go into but covering these should be enough to ensure a decent progression for most beginners

Hanley

d-gal wrote: »

* Aerobic work outside your team training is not your main focus. Your basic team training of match situations should cover your aerobic and build this sufficiently. In the off season maintain your aerobic fitness with 2-3 30min cardio sessions (beach runs being ideal for example)

Is this really neccessary? Everything I've read about HIIT says max anaerobic levels are reached in about 4-6 weeks, so what's the point in hitting recovery in the off season which could be better spend on strength/muscle building?

Open to correction here.

* Maintenance of your strength during the season is key so most of your weight sessions should focus on this

Just to add to this, intensity's more important than volume in that regard from everything I've read. Especially in season. If I'm wrong, someone tell me!!

d-gal

Hanley wrote: »

Is this really neccessary? Everything I've read about HIIT says max anaerobic levels are reached in about 4-6 weeks, so what's the point in hitting recovery in the off season which could be better spend on strength/muscle building?

Open to correction here.

Closer to the end of off season maybe getting the cardio more regularly. I would completely agree strength and muscle building (or whatever improvement needed) should be the focus.

Hanley wrote: »

Just to add to this, intensity's more important than volume in that regard from everything I've read. Especially in season. If I'm wrong, someone tell me!!

Agreed, very little point in season to do a set and rest for 5-6 minutes and then another

eroo

With regards to the aerobic base, it IS necessary. I aimed this at the beginner to field sports. The problem with starting solely with conditioned games is that it is very hard to monitor intensity. An example being tip rugby for Union teams. It is a great way of improving fitness, but most players up the intensity immediately. This is one of the main contributors to ankle/knee damage in players. The 3 aerobic conditioning sessions weren't solely running but also swimming and cycling which are low impact. Having a good aerobic 'base' has been proven to contribute to better anaerobic performance.

The rest period of 15 seconds gives the ATP-CP system just enough time to recover in trained players. Could be increased to 30 seconds for untrained.

Speed is not built in the weights room. The weights room can assist speed development but technique is essential. That is why I added that they contact a Strength and Conditioning coach to learn correct technique for sprinting i.e. different gaits, correct push off for acceleration.

Circuits are not generated towards strength, hypertrophy or power training. They are designed to improve technique in lifting here. The different stages of the Oly lifts could be included for example. They also contribute to anaerobic fitness, slightly, but as I said technique first.

With regards to jumping into hypertrophy/max strength.. any coach worth their salt imo would be reluctant to put untrained athletes into a weights room to undertake lifts and ROM's that are new to them without having first conditioned the muscles, joints etc involved first. In rugby, hypertrophy training is epidemic at amatuer levels. I've seen too many underage players failing to even get parallel in squatting while training for mass. Form and technique, as well as posture, is sacrificed for body mass. This leads to further problems in their development down the line i.e. imbalances, weaknesses, tightness etc

Mobility.. another amazing buzzword! And what course I've done is irrelevant.

Overall I would like people to note, this is a basics of fitness and conditioning for beginners thread.. all the stickies are geared towards beginners, not seasoned athletes/fitness enthusiasts.

eroo

d-gal wrote: »

Closer to the end of off season maybe getting the cardio more regularly. I would completely agree strength and muscle building (or whatever improvement needed) should be the focus.





Agreed, very little point in season to do a set and rest for 5-6 minutes and then another

Muscle building wont always necessarily improve a players performance. It may hinder it.

For players who have been training for years, in season strength maintenance should have Oly and compound lifts with rest times of 4-6 mins between sets. During this rest time, rotator cuff work could be done with resistance bands for example.

But again, this post is geared towards players new to fitness and conditioning not seasoned athletes!

itsallaboutheL

eroo wrote: »

Muscle building wont always necessarily improve a players performance. It may hinder it.

For players who have been training for years, in season strength maintenance should have Oly and compound lifts with rest times of 4-6 mins between sets. During this rest time, rotator cuff work could be done with resistance bands for example.

But again, this post is geared towards players new to fitness and conditioning not seasoned athletes!

is doing rotator cuff work between rests in compound lifts not a bit silly?

are you not basically putting extra stress on tiny stabilising muscles and tendons?

d-gal

eroo wrote: »

Circuits are not generated towards strength, hypertrophy or power training. They are designed to improve technique in lifting here. The different stages of the Oly lifts could be included for example. They also contribute to anaerobic fitness, slightly, but as I said technique first.

I would understand circuits as hopping from one station to the next, 30-60seconds per exercise..this is where you learn technique?? Are you serious! Usually people lose their techniques while huffing and puffing at high intensity. Have you ever seen an Olympic lifter work on his technique by doing circuits?
Also do you seriously give Oly lifts to a beginner? I rarely see S&C coaches teaching these as they waste so much time and seem pretty pointless if they have no strength foundation

eroo wrote: »

With regards to jumping into hypertrophy/max strength.. any coach worth their salt imo would be reluctant to put untrained athletes into a weights room to undertake lifts and ROM's that are new to them without having first conditioned the muscles, joints etc involved first. In rugby, hypertrophy training is epidemic at amatuer levels. I've seen too many underage players failing to even get parallel in squatting while training for mass. Form and technique, as well as posture, is sacrificed for body mass. This leads to further problems in their development down the line i.e. imbalances, weaknesses, tightness etc

Ah seriously come on like! I'm going to put this easy terms. You know a program called 'starting strength'?!
Imbalances/tightness/weaknesses are done with a balanced program and that's what your warm up is focused on. If a kid can't go parallel then he just has to do more mobility work...not to do circuits

d-gal

eroo wrote: »

Muscle building wont always necessarily improve a players performance. It may hinder it.

Most likely never in a beginners case

eroo wrote: »

For players who have been training for years, in season strength maintenance should have Oly and compound lifts with rest times of 4-6 mins between sets. During this rest time, rotator cuff work could be done with resistance bands for example.

Wrong. That's what your warm up is for generally. If your rotator cuffs are giving you trouble for then you rehab it, rehab usually isn't usually done during max strength sets

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

is doing rotator cuff work between rests in compound lifts not a bit silly?

are you not basically putting extra stress on tiny stabilising muscles and tendons?

Yes it is, again never seen it prescribed

eroo

d-gal wrote: »

I would understand circuits as hopping from one station to the next, 30-60seconds per exercise..this is where you learn technique?? Are you serious! Usually people lose their techniques while huffing and puffing at high intensity. Have you ever seen an Olympic lifter work on his technique by doing circuits?
Also do you seriously give Oly lifts to a beginner? I rarely see S&C coaches teaching these as they waste so much time and seem pretty pointless if they have no strength foundation


Ah seriously come on like! I'm going to put this easy terms. You know a program called 'starting strength'?!
Imbalances/tightness/weaknesses are done with a balanced program and that's what your warm up is focused on. If a kid can't go parallel then he just has to do more mobility work...not to do circuits

Yes circuits can be used to learn technique, but as with any form of training fatigue effects form. If you re read my post, I say Oly lifts can be introduced after a solid foundation has been laid. Also, teaching the movements of the lifts with broom handles or training equipment(expensive) could be introduced into circuits. But as I said, solid foundation.

If you put your faith in 'Starting Strength' to enable players to have a solid functional competency then your approach is naive.

Your 'ah seriously like' attitude.. get rid of it and do yourself a favour. I don't appreciate condescending posts. Constructive criticism the likes of which Barry and others here have used I take more seriously.

eroo

Some of you are missing the point. Max strength will not be prescribed to a beginner nor will hypertrophy etc. Please just refer to the post itself which is intended to give a very basic overview of fitness and conditioning for sports for a beginner!

Very basic it is as hundreds of posts could be written about this subject. We are talking basics for the beginner here, and what they need. Not a seasoned athlete.

Barry.Oglesby

With regards to the aerobic base, it IS necessary. I aimed this at the beginner to field sports. The problem with starting solely with conditioned games is that it is very hard to monitor intensity. An example being tip rugby for Union teams. It is a great way of improving fitness, but most players up the intensity immediately. This is one of the main contributors to ankle/knee damage in players.

I wasn't talking about conditioned games. I was talking about general ball work and skills drills. Have a player do 30mins of that rather than have him out running laps. Where are you getting the data re: knee/ankle injuries?

Speed is not built in the weights room. The weights room can assist speed development but technique is essential. That is why I added that they contact a Strength and Conditioning coach to learn correct technique for sprinting i.e. different gaits, correct push off for acceleration.

Speed is not technical. You're saying give them 25m sprints for speed development, you didn't say work on push offs etc. I would say your technique for push offs lasts oh about .025s and for the other 24.7metres of the sprint I doubt they're using technique. Speed and rate of force is developed in the weight room.

Circuits are not generated towards strength, hypertrophy or power training. They are designed to improve technique in lifting here. The different stages of the Oly lifts could be included for example. They also contribute to anaerobic fitness, slightly, but as I said technique first.

So essentially what you're saying is that it's better to have a group of guys doing circuits in a room than to coach them how to squat, bench, deadlift row etc. one to one. Correct me if I'm wrong. From looking at what you said I think you also mean that its important to strength train pre-season with circuit training but now circuits don't build strength, power or hypertrophy. They're just some sort of movement session.

With regards to jumping into hypertrophy/max strength.. any coach worth their salt imo would be reluctant to put untrained athletes into a weights room to undertake lifts and ROM's that are new to them without having first conditioned the muscles, joints etc involved first.

And how do you condition the muscles and joints? Personally, I'd have them doing the ROMs involved with progressively heavier loads... sorry that's just smartarsery.

In rugby, hypertrophy training is epidemic at amatuer levels. I've seen too many underage players failing to even get parallel in squatting while training for mass. Form and technique, as well as posture, is sacrificed for body mass. This leads to further problems in their development down the line i.e. imbalances, weaknesses, tightness etc.

Yes you're right it does. But people being coached badly by others isn't my problem. Just because their coaching was ****e or non-existent doesn't mean we all have to dumb down. We should aim higher than that, and I for one refuse to talk down to people.

Mobility.. another amazing buzzword! And what course I've done is irrelevant.

Mobility is awesome. Some day, when it reaches it's logical conclusion, we'll all be able to put our legs behind out heads and kiss our own arses. I was making the course comment because I'm 90% sure I've been through the same one and what you typed comes almost right out of the manual. I meant no offence, I've just found through practical experience that application of that knowledge is another thing. Good course though.

Overall I would like people to note, this is a basics of fitness and conditioning for beginners thread.. all the stickies are geared towards beginners, not seasoned athletes/fitness enthusiasts.

Listen I know and I recognise that but I think you're trying to condense too difficult of a subject. People will **** it up because they'll take the bits they want and leave the rest.

d-gal wrote:

Quick bullet points would be good

Name me one complex piece of information that has been successfully passed on through bullet points.

That reminds me, I asked that one day to someone and they said "The ten commandments" without a trace of irony.

d-gal

eroo wrote: »

Yes circuits can be used to learn technique, but as with any form of training fatigue effects form. If you re read my post, I say Oly lifts can be introduced after a solid foundation has been laid. Also, teaching the movements of the lifts with broom handles or training equipment(expensive) could be introduced into circuits. But as I said, solid foundation.

I have never seen a S&C (I know probably 50+) use circuits to teach techniques. I have never seen a coach or course recommend it. It's pointless and no way effective

eroo wrote: »

If you put your faith in 'Starting Strength' to enable players to have a solid functional competency then you are naive.

I used SS as an example as so many people understand it and it's a lot better than 'circuits'. Basic 3x5, 5x5 work has been around for years and gives a lot more solid foundation than circuits

eroo wrote: »

Your 'ah seriously like' attitude.. get rid of it and do yourself a favour. I don't appreciate condescending posts. Constructive criticism the likes of which Barry and others here have used I take more seriously.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings but seems like when Barry and others have already pointed out circuits are wasted in a program it gets annoying when a person still gives out wrong advice and stands by it

Barry.Oglesby

d-gal wrote: »

Wrong. That's what your warm up is for generally. If your rotator cuffs are giving you trouble for then you rehab it, rehab usually isn't usually done during max strength sets

Think he was talking prevention rather than cure.

Yes it is, again never seen it prescribed

I have.

d-gal

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Name me one complex piece of information that has been successfully passed on through bullet points.

That reminds me, I asked that one day to someone and they said "The ten commandments" without a trace of irony.

Damn my one comeback

I mentioned bullet points as it would be good for quick info as most beginners won't read a 4 or 5 page article and take it all in. Maybe posts after the points giving more depth to it? Or a video with demos would do well

Barry.Oglesby

d-gal wrote: »

Sorry if I hurt your feelings but seems like when Barry and others have already pointed out circuits are wasted in a program it gets annoying when a person still gives out wrong advice and stands by it

I wasn't saying they're wrong per se. I can think of some instances where I'd use circuits with kids for example. I also wouldn't use my name as some kind of "Barry has spoken!" tag as we're debating and I'm not the definitive authority on the subject. I'm discussing, I think eroo is wrong on some points, right on others.

Barry.Oglesby

d-gal wrote: »

Damn my one comeback

I mentioned bullet points as it would be good for quick info as most beginners won't read a 4 or 5 page article and take it all in. Maybe posts after the points giving more depth to it? Or a video with demos would do well

well this is my point. If they can't be bothered reading 4 pages then they're probably not serious about training anyway.

d-gal

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Think he was talking prevention rather than cure.

Isn't that what a warm up is for? If a warm up is done properly then there is no need for it during sets

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I have.

Again why not use it in a warm up instead? Your minutes in between strength sessions are all about recovery, not adding extras, no matter how small it is.

d-gal

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I wasn't saying they're wrong per se. I can think of some instances where I'd use circuits with kids for example. I also wouldn't use my name as some kind of "Barry has spoken!" tag as we're debating and I'm not the definitive authority on the subject. I'm discussing, I think eroo is wrong on some points, right on others.

Maybe very minority instances but usually with kids they have a short attention span and getting them one on one learning technique is a lot more beneficial

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

well this is my point. If they can't be bothered reading 4 pages then they're probably not serious about training anyway.

True but I suppose if boards can get even some points across then it is better than nothing. Bullet points for lazy people and then optional full blown article for the more interested

Barry.Oglesby

d-gal wrote: »

Isn't that what a warm up is for? If a warm up is done properly then there is no need for it during sets

A warm up is for... warming up. There's lots of stuff that can be done between sets that can be useful. I sleeper stretch, wall stretch and lat stretch between presses every time I do them for example.

Again why not use it in a warm up instead? Your minutes in between strength sessions are all about recovery, not adding extras, no matter how small it is.

Does a few little exercises really take that much out of you? Should there be a lazeeboy directly beside the bench to minimise your walk to where you're going to rest? You're going to hate this but... it depends. Not every set is going to be your last.

eroo

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I wasn't talking about conditioned games. I was talking about general ball work and skills drills. Have a player do 30mins of that rather than have him out running laps. Where are you getting the data re: knee/ankle injuries?
I can't find the study for the life of me!! It was more geared towards tip being used in warm ups but it is valid to conditioned games. I misunderstood you re ball work. That would be a good idea. But with 1-2 training sessions a week would that be enough for aerobic development in your opinion?

Speed is not technical. You're saying give them 25m sprints for speed development, you didn't say work on push offs etc. I would say your technique for push offs lasts oh about .025s and for the other 24.7metres of the sprint I doubt they're using technique. Speed and rate of force is developed in the weight room.
True I didn't mention push off technique, but I disagree with regards to technique for full flight as foot placement and hip obility etc effects it. I'm beginning to agree with you about this topic being too vast to cover!

So essentially what you're saying is that it's better to have a group of guys doing circuits in a room than to coach them how to squat, bench, deadlift row etc. one to one. Correct me if I'm wrong. From looking at what you said I think you also mean that its important to strength train pre-season with circuit training but now circuits don't build strength, power or hypertrophy. They're just some sort of movement session.
But the guy who reads the post/sticky probably wont have anyone to coach him properly one to one. For the circuits, they would contribute to overall conditioning while also possibly being the first form of strength training the beginner has. As I said in the post, if this is not the case they should look to programme's out there or preferably a coach.

And how do you condition the muscles and joints? Personally, I'd have them doing the ROMs involved with progressively heavier loads... sorry that's just smartarsery.
Agreed but progressive overload can likewise be achieved through circuits i.e. anatomical adaptation
Yes you're right it does. But people being coached badly by others isn't my problem. Just because their coaching was ****e or non-existent doesn't mean we all have to dumb down. We should aim higher than that, and I for one refuse to talk down to people.
Could not agree more.

Mobility is awesome. Some day, when it reaches it's logical conclusion, we'll all be able to put our legs behind out heads and kiss our own arses. I was making the course comment because I'm 90% sure I've been through the same one and what you typed comes almost right out of the manual. I meant no offence, I've just found through practical experience that application of that knowledge is another thing. Good course though.
No bother at all.
Listen I know and I recognise that but I think you're trying to condense too difficult of a subject. People will **** it up because they'll take the bits they want and leave the rest.
I'm starting to think the same. People are looking at strength and conditioning for seasoned athletes and comparing it to beginner levels.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I have stated nowhere that I'm an expert on this subject. Far from it. I'm a Strength and Conditioning coach taking my baby steps really, and just wanted to throw out my views via the post.

Barry.Oglesby

d-gal wrote:

Maybe very minority instances but usually with kids they have a short attention span and getting them one on one learning technique is a lot more beneficial

Okay. Take your next group of 30 kids and get them one on one see how long it takes. Yes there are methods of coaching properly in large groups but I'm saying that the categorical "NO" to eroo was incorrect.

True but I suppose if boards can get even some points across then it is better than nothing. Bullet points for lazy people and then optional full blown article for the more interested

Sod the lazy. Isn't this a fitness forum? If someone can't be arsed reading good info then they either need to pay a coach or just make it up by themselves.

eroo

d-gal wrote: »

Again why not use it in a warm up instead? Your minutes in between strength sessions are all about recovery, not adding extras, no matter how small it is.

Rotator cuff training is never going to be heavy lifting. Light resistance bands being used in between sets will not hinder recovery as the stress is very minor on the main working muscles.

d-gal

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

A warm up is for... warming up. There's lots of stuff that can be done between sets that can be useful. I sleeper stretch, wall stretch and lat stretch between presses every time I do them for example.
Does a few little exercises really take that much out of you? Should there be a lazeeboy directly beside the bench to minimise your walk to where you're going to rest? You're going to hate this but... it depends. Not every set is going to be your last.

Ok fair enough but I don't think you would see it specifically prescribed. A lot of the time when I see people stretching out after a set it is usually because they have not warmed up properly.
But the main reason I replied was I'd love a lazeeboy to lounge in between sets

itsallaboutheL

eroo wrote: »

Rotator cuff training is never going to be heavy lifting. Light resistance bands being used in between sets will not hinder recovery as the stress is very minor on the main working muscles.

Heavy is relative.

What have the main working muscles got to do with fatigued rotator cuffs?

I know **** all, but i'm never going to agree to doing actual direct rotator cuff work between sets of a compound lift.

(premising that with i know **** all makes this entire post make no sense. like all my other posts. excellent.:))

d-gal

eroo wrote: »

Rotator cuff training is never going to be heavy lifting. Light resistance bands being used in between sets will not hinder recovery as the stress is very minor on the main working muscles.

Again why do it or why mention it in the first place when your trying to get your point across for beginners?

Barry.Oglesby

eroo wrote: »

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I have stated nowhere that I'm an expert on this subject. Far from it. I'm a Strength and Conditioning coach taking my baby steps really, and just wanted to throw out my views via the post.

Fair play to you for nailing a flag to the mast anyway.

I can't find the study for the life of me!! It was more geared towards tip being used in warm ups but it is valid to conditioned games. I misunderstood you re ball work. That would be a good idea. But with 1-2 training sessions a week would that be enough for aerobic development in your opinion?

It just sounds to me like people going over on their ankles and knacking their knees cos they haven't warmed up. I doubt it would happen if they did that after a 15 minute warm up. I've banged my neck up pretty badly "light" sparring for warm ups when the guy doesn't understand light.
Re: the aerobic base. I suppose it depends on the team! By and large most teams in Ireland would arrive with an aerobic base as that's been the training. But from a standing start, as in completely untrained? I don't know. I'll put it to Will in work tomorrow. I think general conditioning work would be more beneficial than low intensity running or swimming.

True I didn't mention push off technique, but I disagree with regards to technique for full flight as foot placement and hip obility etc effects it.

I think you're still describing "technical" running work rather than speed development.

For the circuits, they would contribute to overall conditioning while also possibly being the first form of strength training the beginner has.

I can think of worse things than circuits for a novice, and I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're fundamentally wrong about novices definitively needing circuit training before strength work.

People are looking at strength and conditioning for seasoned athletes and comparing it to beginner levels

I'm not. You also have to remember that there are a lot of people out there who'd consider themselves seasoned that would be novices in the weight room!

Barry.Oglesby

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Heavy is relative.

What have the main working muscles got to do with fatigued rotator cuffs?

I know **** all, but i'm never going to agree to doing actual direct rotator cuff work between sets of a compound lift.

(premising that with i know **** all makes this entire post make no sense. like all my other posts. excellent.:))

I'm going to piece together this code and say you're against direct rotator cuff work between sets.

Okay.

Define direct rotator cuff work. I know I'm being a pain in the hole here but maybe this will help everyone along:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVoPG9HtYF8

Now that we've established through song that everything is connected through the medium of song then we can possibly agree that there's a lot of exercises that we could do that won't fatigue you enough to make your shoulders fall apart when you go pressing.

Barry.Oglesby

I'll come back to this tomorrow. I'm enjoying the debate but I trained pretty hard tonight and I've yet to shower. If I stay in the kitchen any longer it'll need fumigating

Chet Zar

Nice post there eroo...but speaking as a dude learning all the time with a good knowledge of the fundamentals I have a few points I've been bouncing around:

-I know it's already been mentioned but 3x aerobic sessions I would have thought are superfluous given the average say GAA team has a good aerobic base to begin with. They get 'fit' just doing their sport from one end of the year to another.

-Don't get the reference to circuits... Surely the best way to introduce weight training to a total beginner is to take time 1:1 to instruct the movements correctly.

-On rehab/prehab work between sets - don't get that either - surely the point of work sets is to focus on getting the most out of the lifts themselves. You can do rotator cuff work and such anytime, right? Or is there an advantage to doing it in between work sets? What I'm asking really is why do supplementary work between sets when it can be done at other times, when you're not saving all your gas for just getting through your RX'd reps? That one's for you Barry

mushykeogh

Chet Zar wrote: »

-On rehab/prehab work between sets - don't get that either - surely the point of work sets is to focus on getting the most out of the lifts themselves. You can do rotator cuff work and such anytime, right? Or is there an advantage to doing it in between work sets? What I'm asking really is why do supplementary work between sets when it can be done at other times, when you're not saving all your gas for just getting through your RX'd reps? That one's for you Barry

How fatigued are you going to be after doing some prehab/rehab stuff in between sets? Not very, most supplementary work wont have any impact on your power production.

In fact, those dudes your trying to rehab are probably well activated and will prob perform better on your main lift.
If youve got 4 or 5 mins between sets, why not do a bit of non fatiguing prehaby stuff?

eroo

As regards to why do rotator cuff between sets? Great way to do rotator cuff work while also staving off boredom!

I too will be back to this later on.. 2 early shifts and I'm wrecked!

eroo

d-gal wrote: »

Again why do it or why mention it in the first place when your trying to get your point across for beginners?

Because max strength sets and rest was brought up by someone else and I mentioned rotator cuff work. I did not intend to veer away from beginners training.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

It just sounds to me like people going over on their ankles and knacking their knees cos they haven't warmed up. I doubt it would happen if they did that after a 15 minute warm up. I've banged my neck up pretty badly "light" sparring for warm ups when the guy doesn't understand light.

Re: the aerobic base. I suppose it depends on the team! By and large most teams in Ireland would arrive with an aerobic base as that's been the training. But from a standing start, as in completely untrained? I don't know. I'll put it to Will in work tomorrow. I think general conditioning work would be more beneficial than low intensity running or swimming.

I think you're still describing "technical" running work rather than speed development.

I can think of worse things than circuits for a novice, and I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're fundamentally wrong about novices definitively needing circuit training before strength work.

I'm not. You also have to remember that there are a lot of people out there who'd consider themselves seasoned that would be novices in the weight room!

Re: aerobic base I'm starting to agree with you as most players do already have a sufficient level of aerobic conditioning through team training sessions. But then what about the likes of GAA where collective training is banned in Nov/Dec effectively decimating pre season team training?

I am getting technical, perhaps too much so! Obviously heavy lifting will improve acceleration but as I said I'm against putting beginners into it.

For strength training, I maybe should have made the point that I don't believe circuits are the only way for a beginner to train.. but I believe the most appropriate before progressing. Can I ask you what is your opinion on anatomical adaptation? I for one cannot see why 1-2 years is advised! I'd appreciate your imput there.

Thanks for the replies Barry, just the way this forum is meant to be!

cc87

eroo wrote: »

Re: aerobic base I'm starting to agree with you as most players do already have a sufficient level of aerobic conditioning through team training sessions. But then what about the likes of GAA where collective training is banned in Nov/Dec effectively decimating pre season team training?

Just a bit off-topic but......
Few if any teams abide by this rule. I know of a number of intercounty and club teams already weeks into pre-season training. Many teams have also had players on individual programs since sept/oct. Fair enough the programs or the training may or may not be any good but there still training away.

Chet Zar

cc87 wrote: »

Just a bit off-topic but......
Few if any teams abide by this rule. I know of a number of intercounty and club teams already weeks into pre-season training. Many teams have also had players on individual programs since sept/oct. Fair enough the programs or the training may or may not be any good but there still training away.

Would agree with that re continuation of training, mate of mine's GAA team are playing basketball this month under an S&C coach.

nice_guy80

Why do circuit training then??

eroo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Why do circuit training then??

Because it is a simple way of introducing a beginner to weight training while also improving fitness. It also means loads will not be very heavy, which I feel is important for a beginner as it will help teaching of technique and reduce risk of overtraining and injury. Then progress away from circuits when a period of anatomical adaptation has been completed.

I'm not saying other lifting programmes wont work. They will. It was just my take on training that players new to weight training(including bodyweight stuff) would enjoy circuits as well as learning new exercises, ROM's while also improving fitness.

Also, if the players are restricted for training time, circuits can be completed on the pitch. You could train strength in the team training session.

I am not saying it has to be circuits and I never have. It's just what I would do with a beginner.

nice_guy80

eroo wrote: »

Because it is a simple way of introducing a beginner to weight training while also improving fitness. It also means loads will not be very heavy, which I feel is important for a beginner as it will help teaching of technique and reduce risk of overtraining and injury. Then progress away from circuits when a period of anatomical adaptation has been completed.

I'm not saying other lifting programmes wont work. They will. It was just my take on training that players new to weight training(including bodyweight stuff) would enjoy circuits as well as learning new exercises, ROM's while also improving fitness.

Also, if the players are restricted for training time, circuits can be completed on the pitch. You could train strength in the team training session.

I am not saying it has to be circuits and I never have. It's just what I would do with a beginner.

What are the benefits of circuit training for an experienced sportsperson?

eroo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What are the benefits of circuit training for an experienced sportsperson?

For an experienced sports person they could be a way of easing back into training after injury or it could be used for variety or unloading during off season. I would expect an experienced sports person to have a greater training background and as such have the compound lifts and preferably Olympic lifts in their programme.

nice_guy80

eroo wrote: »

For an experienced sports person they could be a way of easing back into training after injury or it could be used for variety or unloading during off season. I would expect an experienced sports person to have a greater training background and as such have the compound lifts and preferably Olympic lifts in their programme.

ok. then who uses circuit training?
would somebody like a pro tennis player or top level squash player be using circuit training? as it kind of mirrors the activity playing the sport - intense activity followed by a rest phase and incorporating aerobic and anearobic exercises.

or is it just a general full body conditioning tool?

I'd like to know as a lot of teams and gyms seem to be doing it/offering it and I wonder as to its benefits?

eroo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

ok. then who uses circuit training?
would somebody like a pro tennis player or top level squash player be using circuit training? as it kind of mirrors the activity playing the sport - intense activity followed by a rest phase and incorporating aerobic and anearobic exercises.

or is it just a general full body conditioning tool?

I'd like to know as a lot of teams and gyms seem to be doing it/offering it and I wonder as to its benefits?

Well imo it all depends on the training experience of the individual athletes. If general full body conditioning is needed then circuits are quite good for it.

Being honest, I'm not 100% on the demands of tennis/squash(these and a few other non field sports I'm looking into!) but I know some of the top level athletes do use circuits, but whether it is for off season etc I'm not sure.

Even though I advocate the use of circuits for beginners, it is also overused by gym's as an easy way of creating programme's geared towards fat loss. It all depends on your or a teams needs really.

Inspector Coptoor

I use circuit training with underage rugby players.
But its not all bodyweight and its done in the weights room.

When you have 12-20 guys in the weights room for a session, it makes sense to structure it in a circuit type system.

An example of the current "circuit" would be
Back squat - 5 reps
Power Clean - 3 reps
Front Squat - 5 reps
Push Press - 5 reps
DB Row - 10 reps per side
GHR - 10 reps
Chins - 10 reps
The lads would be working in groups of 2-3 and moving from station to station and would try to get through 3 circuits in ~ 45 mins.

It's not perfect but it gets the job done.

On the topic of anatomical adaptation, I think its being put out there as wannabe buzz phrase.
This whole idea about only using bodyweight for two years is a bit mad imo.
it can be done but it doesnt need to be.

Also, if you do stick with bodyweight exercises, and the athletes become anatomically adapted and are doing say, 3 sets of 15-20 push ups, BW squats, lunges etc and getting bigger and stronger from doing it, you really have to wonder how as they werent doing hypertrophy, or were they?

Barry.Oglesby

eroo wrote: »

Well imo it all depends on the training experience of the individual athletes. If general full body conditioning is needed then circuits are quite good for it.

Full body conditioning as opposed to what? Partial body conditioning? This sounds very shakey. Please clarify.

Being honest, I'm not 100% on the demands of tennis/squash(these and a few other non field sports I'm looking into!) but I know some of the top level athletes do use circuits, but whether it is for off season etc I'm not sure.

I don't know of any that use circuits for strength and if they are then I think they need to take one of our business cards.

Even though I advocate the use of circuits for beginners, it is also overused by gym's as an easy way of creating programme's geared towards fat loss. It all depends on your or a teams needs really.

I would think that a circuit would be a good way of getting people to do some form of structured exercise, and would be better than most training available in gyms to increase activity in sedentary people.

nice_guy80

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Full body conditioning as opposed to what? Partial body conditioning? This sounds very shakey. Please clarify.

I don't know of any that use circuits for strength and if they are then I think they need to take one of our business cards.
I would think that a circuit would be a good way of getting people to do some form of structured exercise, and would be better than most training available in gyms to increase activity in sedentary people.

nobody has answered my question.

why use circuits?
Or when to use them?

Barry.Oglesby

nice_guy80 wrote: »

nobody has answered my question.

why use circuits?
Or when to use them?

Why'd you quote me? I'm not advocating them.

eroo

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Full body conditioning as opposed to what? Partial body conditioning? This sounds very shakey. Please clarify.

I don't know of any that use circuits for strength and if they are then I think they need to take one of our business cards.
I would think that a circuit would be a good way of getting people to do some form of structured exercise, and would be better than most training available in gyms to increase activity in sedentary people.

Full body conditioing is just a phrase niceguy80 used, which I presume referred to general conditioning i.e. all forms of training

I didn't say they used it for strength.

Agreed.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

nobody has answered my question.

why use circuits?
Or when to use them?

Re read my posts.

rebel girl 15

d-gal wrote: »

Maybe very minority instances but usually with kids they have a short attention span and getting them one on one learning technique is a lot more beneficial

But when you have 20 or 30 kids to deal with, getting one on one time with them is impossible in any setting! I used some bodyweight circuits with kids last year, demo each technique using 2/3 key points every week - as the weeks went on, their technique got better. I observed, and if a lot were doing it wrong, I'd stop the whole thing, one or two I'd show them individually. But if I had tried to go one on one with all of the them, I'd have spent all my time on one thing.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The "aerobic base" thing is a common misconception. They definitely don't need to be doing it 3 times per week and I would argue that game play drills and short matches are a far better method of ensuring a good aerobic base than jogging. Give a 30 year old player 30minutes of high impact running 3 times per week and see what you get after 4 weeks.

As well, it is way more enjoyable for the kids and adults taking part, from my own experience - thats something I'm planning on doing for preseason with my gang, high intensity short drills and games rather than them running laps of the pitch. Especially in GAA which is my background, the more time than a player has with a football or hurley in their hand, the better it is, which goes back to the game play drills and short matches Barry suggested.

d-gal

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

But when you have 20 or 30 kids to deal with, getting one on one time with them is impossible in any setting! I used some bodyweight circuits with kids last year, demo each technique using 2/3 key points every week - as the weeks went on, their technique got better. I observed, and if a lot were doing it wrong, I'd stop the whole thing, one or two I'd show them individually. But if I had tried to go one on one with all of the them, I'd have spent all my time on one thing.



As well, it is way more enjoyable for the kids and adults taking part, from my own experience - thats something I'm planning on doing for preseason with my gang, high intensity short drills and games rather than them running laps of the pitch. Especially in GAA which is my background, the more time than a player has with a football or hurley in their hand, the better it is, which goes back to the game play drills and short matches Barry suggested.

Ideally you will have more than one or two sessions with them and gives you a chance to do 1 on 1 stuff or at worst small group stuff. Again this is a bit knit-picky on the subject and in different situations
At the end of it all you will never see a top quality coach using circuits in an ideal situation. You won't see him/her use baby weights and 'ease' them in. Circuits is not ideal and bottom of the barrel stuff, I would see it as about effective as running laps for the whole season. Strength is the foundation of majority sports and that is what you will be focusing on.

Even a simple example might suffice.
A beginner rugby player walks into informed performance and wants to train their for the season. Do you think he is going to be put into circuits for the season?

eroo

d-gal wrote: »

At the end of it all you will never see a top quality coach using circuits in an ideal situation. You won't see him/her use baby weights and 'ease' them in. Circuits is not ideal and bottom of the barrel stuff, I would see it as about effective as running laps for the whole season. Strength is the foundation of majority sports and that is what you will be focusing on.

Excuse me? Who do you think you are slandering my coaching qualities based on a single post for beginners.. on the internet? How dare you.

I'll stick with my methods and I have explained myself several times. I would not put a player with a training age of 0 straight into heavy lifting. Circuits is one of many options. There is no set way to train a team. It differs.

Strength is the foundation of majority of sports? Ha ha! Skill I would've thought, but I wont judge your competencies, or incompetencies based on your posts.

metamorphosis

Lets try to keep the conversation going forward in a mannerly fashion.

There's potential for good debate here but lets not get de railed too much and throw this thread way off topic.