How is the price of a pint calculated?

Worztron

Hi.

How is the price of a pint calculated?

How much is the tax and what % of the pint price goes to the pub, brewery, etc.?

Surely the high cost cannot be justified. Since shops can sell 6 cans for as low as €5, while a pint in a pub costs at least €4 in most places. :eek:

BeerNut

Worztron wrote: »

Surely the high cost cannot be justified.

If you've ever bought a pint then you've proved that it can. The market price of anything is what people will pay for it.

Degag

It's pretty much split pretty evenly between the Publican, the Brewery and the Government. The Publican's net profit per unit would be much smaller once all costs are attributed though.

Worztron

Degag wrote: »

It's pretty much split pretty evenly between the Publican, the Brewery and the Government. The Publican's net profit per unit would be much smaller once all costs are attributed though.

The price is still way too steep though. The price of a pint in most other countries is far cheaper.

Opinicus

Degag wrote: »

It's pretty much split pretty evenly between the Publican, the Brewery and the Government. The Publican's net profit per unit would be much smaller once all costs are attributed though.

The taxman takes more like half of the price between vat and duty. The brewery and publican take a quarter each out of which they both have to pay their costs.

BeerNut

Opinicus wrote: »

The taxman takes more like half of the price between vat and duty.

Can we see your working out on that?

The highest rate of duty on beer is €15.71 per unit ABV per hectolitre.

So, a hectolitre of beer at 4.2% ABV will incur duty of €65.98. A pint, therefore, incurs 37c. VAT is due on that, so we're up to 45c. There's VAT due on the rest of the pint, of course, but that's proportional to its retail price and won't push it near to the half way mark.

Have I got my maths wrong here, Opinicus? Where did you get "more like half" from?

the beer revolu

Worztron wrote: »

The price of a pint in most other countries is far cheaper.

Not really, in my experience.
I often find that pints in pubs costs similar to here in places where pretty much everything else is considerably cheaper.

Opinicus

Maybe I shouldn't believe everything that my publican tells me. Maybe he was talking on average. What would the duty on spirits at 40% ABV be?

BeerNut

Opinicus wrote: »

Maybe he was talking on average.

No, I'm fairly sure he was lying to you. Or exaggerating for effect. Or really believes the guff the publicans' lobby comes out with. Either way, it's best not to quote something a publican tells you as fact. Same rule for taxi drivers

Opinicus wrote: »

What would the duty on spirits at 40% ABV be?

The rate for spirits is €31.13 per litre of alcohol, so €12.45 for a litre at 40% ABV, so 44c on a 35ml measure, plus VAT.

Geuze

Here are the excise rates:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

Spirits = 31.13 per litre of alcohol in the spirits


Beer

Exceeding 0.5% volume but not exceeding 1.2% volume = 0.00
Exceeding 1.2% volume but not exceeding 2.8% volume = 7.85 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer
Exceeding 2.8% volume = 15.71 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer

Wine

Still and sparkling, not exceeding 5.5% volume = 87.39 per hectolitre
Still, exceeding 5.5% volume but not exceeding 15% volume = 262.24 per hectolitre
Still, exceeding 15% volume = 380.52 per hectolitre
Sparkling, exceeding 5.5% volume = 524.48 per hectolitre

Other Fermented Beverages:

(1) Cider and Perry

Still and sparkling, not exceeding 2.8% volume = 32.93 per hectolitre
Still and sparkling, exceeding 2.8% volume but not exceeding 6% volume = 65.86 per hectolitre
Still and sparkling, exceeding 6.0% volume but not exceeding 8.5% volume = 152.28 per hectolitre
Still, exceeding 8.5% volume = 216.00 per hectolitre
Sparkling, exceeding 8.5% volume = 432.01 per hectolitre

Geuze

Standard 4.2% beer has 37.5 cent excise duty.

4.3% = 38 cent.

I'll run through some scenarios:


Pint of Guinness = 3.60 (rural town)

VAT = 62.5 cent
Duty = 37.5 cent

Tax = 1 euro exactly or 27.7% of the retail price.

Pint of Guinness = 3.90 (larger town / city)

VAT = 67.7 cent + duty of 37.5 = tax of 105 cent

Tax = 1.05 or 27% of the retail price


Pint of lager = 4.20

VAT = 73c + duty 38c = tax of 1.11

Tax = 1.11 or 26.4% of the retail price.


Pint = 5.00 (mad Dublin price)

VAT = 87c + duty 38c = 1.25

Tax = 1.25 or 25% of the retail price.

Geuze

Opinicus wrote: »

The taxman takes more like half of the price between vat and duty. The brewery and publican take a quarter each out of which they both have to pay their costs.

I show above that tax is 25% to 28% of the retail price.

Geuze

Recently, the catering firm at the Aviva stadium threatened to buy Guinness stout from the UK, as Guinness charge less over there.

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/diageo-cuts-drink-prices-for-aviva-bars-51099.html


"Irish publicans pay €131.66 for a 50-litre keg of Guinness. The ex-duty price of the same keg to the on-trade in Britain is half that, at £54.15 (€66). Even after payment of Irish duty, the cost of importing Guinness to Ireland would be only €99.33 per keg, a saving of 33 per cent."

The 131.66 per 50L keg includes excise duty of 32.99, so the brewer gets 98.67 euro for 50L.

Assuming 88 pints per keg, the brewer gets 1.12 per pint.

Geuze

Keg bought from Diageo in the UK (although brewed here!!) = 66 euro + 33 duty = 99 euro.

Keg bought from Diageo IRL = nearly 134 euro.

Guinness charge more here, as they are very dominant.

Geuze

Another breakdown:


131.66 per keg = 1.50 per pint

About 1.12/1.13 to the brewer, about 37/38c in duty.

Pub adds another 1.50, that's a 100% mark-up

3.00 + VAT = 3.63 approx.

Brewer = 1.12 or 31%
Tax = 1.00 or 27.5%
Pub = 1.50 or 42%

noby

Geuze wrote: »

Another breakdown:


131.66 per keg = 1.50 per pint

About 1.12/1.13 to the brewer, about 37/38c in duty.

Pub adds another 1.50, that's a 100% mark-up

3.00 + VAT = 3.63 approx.

Brewer = 1.12 or 31%
Tax = 1.00 or 27.5%
Pub = 1.50 or 42%

Using these figures, there is also vat due on the keg i.e. 21% of 131.66, or 32cent per pint. This will come off the publican's mark up, so more like:

Brewer = 1.12 or 31%
Tax = 1.32 or 36%
Pub = 1.18 or 33%

My maths mightn't be spot on, bt you can see that it's within the equal split ballpark that Degag mentioned.

Opinicus

Geuze wrote: »

Another breakdown:


131.66 per keg = 1.50 per pint

Does the distributer add more to this?
I remember hearing a price quoted more like €170 a keg before.

maximoose

the beer revolu wrote: »

Not really, in my experience.
I often find that pints in pubs costs similar to here in places where pretty much everything else is considerably cheaper.

Really?! I'd say that Paris is the ONLY place that I have been where pint prices were similar or more than in Ireland. Everywhere else has been considerably cheaper.

irish_goat

Opinicus wrote: »

Does the distributer add more to this?
I remember hearing a price quoted more like €170 a keg before.

€174 for a keg of Guinness up in Donegal.
€186 for a keg of Bud.

BeerNut

maximoose wrote: »

Really?! I'd say that Paris is the ONLY place that I have been where pint prices were similar or more than in Ireland. Everywhere else has been considerably cheaper.

Norway, Denmark, Italy and several places in London I've paid higher-than-Irish prices for beer.

kc66

BeerNut wrote: »

Norway, Denmark, Italy and several places in London I've paid higher-than-Irish prices for beer.

I was on a pub crawl in London last week and I would say it is cheaper than Dublin. Averaged around £3.50 per pint of lager, thats less than €4.20. It was a more expensive part of the city I was in (or so I was told).

BeerNut

kc66 wrote: »

I would say it is cheaper than Dublin.

I would too. You can get a pint for £1.20 some places. But in others they'll take £4 or £5 off you for a half pint of very very good beer. Hard to find that in Dublin.

Prenderb

Don't forget that the publican is running a business. S/He has all of the costs that are involved in running a business, including

Light and heat;
Paying staff (including prsi contributions, maybe training etc);
Premises costs (e.g. planning fees, smoking shelters, maintenance);
Annual licencing costs (solicitors fees etc);
Paying for serving gas;
Security services;

And also has to make a profit to make it worthwhile.

So all of that goes into the mix aswell, and as somebody else said, the pint is only as expensive as the punter is willing to pay for it, all the above (and competition) in consideration.

SteeveeDee

BeerNut wrote: »

Norway, Denmark, Italy and several places in London I've paid higher-than-Irish prices for beer.

You can add Finland,Sweden,Singapore and Japan to that list also.Last year I paid just over €15 for 2 not so good at all Finnish lagers in Helsinki.I will probably remember it for the rest of my life because I knocked one of the bs****trds over while putting the change into my pocket!:eek:


Indeed,I lived in London for years and could never get used to the varying degrees of pint prices.Lived in the east and worked in town.Sometimes a pint was cheaper in town than in the east and vice versa more of the time but prices also go up a lot throughout the years.The local I frequented in 2006 had London Pride on tap for £2.40,I was there a few weeks back and its a whopping £3.70!This is almost solely due to what the clientele are willing to pay and when the clientele changes so often do the prices..;)

Geuze

noby wrote: »

Using these figures, there is also vat due on the keg i.e. 21% of 131.66, or 32cent per pint. This will come off the publican's mark up, so more like:

Brewer = 1.12 or 31%
Tax = 1.32 or 36%
Pub = 1.18 or 33%

My maths mightn't be spot on, bt you can see that it's within the equal split ballpark that Degag mentioned.

Just to clarify again:

Price of 50L keg of Guinness, according to the SBP article is 131.66. This includes duty of 32.99. Of course, this is an ex-VAT price.

So the pint arrives to the pub costing 1.50 ex-VAT. This is made up of 37.5 cent in duty and 112.5 cent to the brewer.

Say the pub adds 2.00 euro gross margin, that makes 3.50.

Then add 21% VAT to the 3.50, that means 73.5 cent VAT = final price of 4.235 euro.

(Note that of course the pub will pay 21% to the brewer, but this is netted against the VAT they receive from the customer)

Let's round it off to 4.25 (Dublin price)

Of the 4.25, the breakdown is as follows:

Brewer = 1.125 or 26.5%
Tax = 37.5 + 73.5 =1.11 or 26%
Pub = 2.00 approx or 47% approx.

Geuze

irish_goat wrote: »

€174 for a keg of Guinness up in Donegal.
€186 for a keg of Bud.

I suspect these costs include 21% VAT.

The SBP article suggests a cost of 131.66 ex-VAT.

noby

Geuze wrote: »

Just to clarify again:...

Can you tell I'm not an accountant?

BeerNut

So for the micros, then, the maths are the same up to this point, but then the brewery claims back 19c from the Revenue. Does the Revenue then get to keep the VAT that had been paid on the reclaimed duty?

rubadub

Geuze wrote: »

I'll run through some scenarios:


Pint of Guinness = 3.60 (rural town)

VAT = 62.5 cent
Duty = 37.5 cent

Tax = 1 euro exactly or 27.7% of the retail price.
.

And the cheapest I know is €2 pints of paulaner (5.5%) in Diceys
VAT 35cent
Duty 49cent
Tax = 84cent

So I reckon they are selling below cost.

BeerNut wrote: »

Norway, Denmark, Italy

I got a pint in Norway for about €9.50, in a normal looking section in the airport. A Italian came to our work and was shocked the drink was so cheap here.

Bigcheeze

BeerNut wrote: »

So for the micros, then, the maths are the same up to this point, but then the brewery claims back 19c from the Revenue. Does the Revenue then get to keep the VAT that had been paid on the reclaimed duty?

The VAT is only ever a cost to the end customer. In business to business transactions between pubs and breweries the VAT is charged, paid or reclaimed so there is no net VAT cost to the business.

bog master

noby wrote: »

Using these figures, there is also vat due on the keg i.e. 21% of 131.66, or 32cent per pint. This will come off the publican's mark up, so more like:

Brewer = 1.12 or 31%
Tax = 1.32 or 36%
Pub = 1.18 or 33%

My maths mightn't be spot on, bt you can see that it's within the equal split ballpark that Degag mentioned.

Just a small correction.

Sell Pint: 3.60
less VAT -.62
less purchase from Diageo -1.46
PROFIT for Publican 1.52

BeerNut

Bigcheeze wrote: »

The VAT is only ever a cost to the end customer.

Sure. But it's calculated based on the price the customer pays. And the price the customer pays is partly determined by the amount of duty payable on the beer. It looks to me like the VAT is calculated on the gross duty (ie before the rebate), rather than the net.

Shouldn't Revenue be adding 21% to the duty rebate cheques?

Edited to answer my own question: if they'd intended to set up a VAT rebate scheme, they'd most likely have set up a VAT rebate scheme.

Geuze

bog master wrote: »

Just a small correction.

Sell Pint: 3.60
less VAT -.62
less purchase from Diageo -1.46
PROFIT for Publican 1.52

I am no friend of the publicans, but please note that out of this 1.50 per pint gross margin have to be paid a lot of expenses and overheads.

Waste costs
Wages
Energy costs

Etc., etc.

Geuze

Prices I have paid during the last year:

Pub just off Trafalgar square, London = 1.99 stg per pint

Camden, London: 3.60stg for Boon geuze (very good value, I thought)


Brussels city centre

From 2.00 for 25cl = 4.50 per pint

To 2.80 for 25cl = 6.36 per pint

Leuven

As low as 1.50 for 25cl, with free "upgrade" to 33cl = 2.58 per pint

But more usually 1.80 for 25cl, or 4.10 per pint

bog master

Geuze wrote: »

I am no friend of the publicans, but please note that out of this 1.50 per pint gross margin have to be paid a lot of expenses and overheads.

Waste costs
Wages
Energy costs

Etc., etc.

I know only to well and you will find in the past, I have posted and corrected many misconceptions about the pub trade. Am quite happy with prices, service, and cleanliness of my local.

BeerNut

Geuze wrote: »

Brussels city centre

From 2.00 for 25cl = 4.50 per pint

To 2.80 for 25cl = 6.36 per pint

Leuven

As low as 1.50 for 25cl, with free "upgrade" to 33cl = 2.58 per pint

But more usually 1.80 for 25cl, or 4.10 per pint

In fairness, per-pint prices don't really make sense with Belgian beer, unless you're drinking lager. A 33cl glass of Leffe in Dublin, for instance, is going to be the far side of a fiver; likewise a bottle of Duvel, Chimay or the like.

Rabies

bog master wrote: »

I know only to well and you will find in the past, I have posted and corrected many misconceptions about the pub trade. Am quite happy with prices, service, and cleanliness of my local.

exactly.

I live and work in NZ for past few years.
Normal price for a pint, bottle of beer, glass of house wine (150ml) or spirt (30ml) is $8

According to xe.com the exchange rate is 8.00 NZD = 4.45625 EUR

Granted, we don't charge for any mixer here, but our hourly normal staff rate is cheaper than back home, and the average working NZer earns less than and an average working Irish person.

BeerNut

Rabies wrote: »

Granted, we don't charge for any mixer here

If one wants to jump up and down about the prices in Irish pubs, soft drinks should be Target No. 1 and leave the pints aside.

Does anyone reckon the prices charged for soft drinks and mixers is fair? Does anyone have a breakdown of the figures like the above?

Geuze

Some Barcelona prices in 2010

Voll Damm in Jai Ca = 2.10 for 20cl / 25cl??? = 4.77 per pint

Estrella = 1.90 for 20/25cl?? = 4.32 per pint


Another pub, bottles of Estrella
20cl bottle = 1.30
33cl bottle = 1.90 (very good value)

Duvel 3.80, Orval = 410, Karmeliet 395

Geuze

BeerNut wrote: »

If one wants to jump up and down about the prices in Irish pubs, soft drinks should be Target No. 1 and leave the pints aside.

Does anyone reckon the prices charged for soft drinks and mixers is fair?

Agreed.

Also 33cl bottles are bad value compared to supermarket prices.

Rabies

BeerNut wrote: »

If one wants to jump up and down about the prices in Irish pubs, soft drinks should be Target No. 1 and leave the pints aside.

Does anyone reckon the prices charged for soft drinks and mixers is fair? Does anyone have a breakdown of the figures like the above?

I do agree that Irish pubs should not charge for a standard mixer. Should be free. Doesn't cost too much. Do away with the bloody glass bottles and introduce post mix. Or charge an extra few cent if using bottles. It will weed out the people you don'r want in the bar over time.

Bigcheeze

BeerNut wrote: »

Shouldn't Revenue be adding 21% to the duty rebate cheques?

If Revenue rebated VAT to the brewery, all the brewery would do is repay that same VAT to the Revenue in their next VAT return, making the whole VAT process more complicated with no net gain. Lower duty makes the microbreweries' products more competitive, a VAT rebate would just involve more book keeping.

BaZmO*

Geuze wrote: »

Also 33cl bottles are bad value compared to supermarket prices.

That’s a weird one due to the obvious transparency between what the average Joe can get a bottle for in the supermarket/off license and what’s charged in a bar. The problem is that if the bars reduced the price of bottles so much well then nobody would drink pints.

Actually, on the price of bottles in Bars. Do the bars get the beer just as cheap as you could get them yourself? say €1 a bottle. If so, that’d make a phenomenal markup for them if they did, which I assume they do.

irish_goat

BaZmO* wrote: »

Actually, on the price of bottles in Bars. Do the bars get the beer just as cheap as you could get them yourself? say €1 a bottle. If so, that’d make a phenomenal markup for them if they did, which I assume they do.

Pub I work in gets bottles of beer(heineken, bud etc) for about 85c each as far as I remember.

BaZmO*

irish_goat wrote: »

Pub I work in gets bottles of beer(heineken, bud etc) for about 85c each as far as I remember.

That's some markup!

Apart from the VAT, which is paid by the customer, the rest is profit then? Or is there some other duty?


edit

Quick calculation..... (excuse any mistake)

Cost 0.85

Sale Price 4.50

Profit 3.65

less 21% VAT 0.63

= 3.02 net profit

rubadub

BeerNut wrote: »

Does anyone reckon the prices charged for soft drinks and mixers is fair? Does anyone have a breakdown of the figures like the above?

I have not done it like exactly like the previous posts, but have highlighted strange pricing policies before. Its a pet hate of mine the way people equate all "drinks" to being the same, and being blind to the different pricing policies.

€5.20 for a bottle (of heineken), this was around 8pm in a normal pub (the goat), i.e. no niteclub, or late nite pub prices.

€5.20 works out at €8.95 per pint, YES almost nine euro for a pint of run of the mill beer, almost twice the price of a pint of guinness. Last time I got them in tesco they were 83cent a bottle, so over 6 times the price.

A pint of guinness in my local is €4.20, 4.2% 568ml. So that is 23.856ml of pure alcohol. €176 per litre of pure alcohol.

A 200ml coke is €2.80, a vodka €3.85 37.5% 35.5ml, €6.65 in total. So 13.3125ml of pure alcohol. €499.50 per litre of pure alcohol.

2.84 times the price.

rubadub wrote: »

say 568ml in the glass to the brim is 113.6ml of miwadi per pint. They come in 1L bottles so 8.8 dashes per bottle. 1L in tesco is €1.79 so say 20cent per dash. So charging you 5 times the price, or a 80cent surcharge/profit.

This sounds like a very good deal to me, many bottles of beer can be got for under a euro these days yet they are €4.50-5.50 in most pubs I go to, so roughly 5 times the price too, but a hell of a lot more profit per drink. Coffee costs about 15-25cent per cup to make and is usually €2-3 in pubs. A pint of coke in my local costs €8.40.

rubadub wrote: »

I usually get 2L of coke €1.50, it would be €28 for 2L in my local!

I remember being in a pub and wondering why they sold pub crisps, a mate actually thought they had to by law, I was then talking about the bottles of coke and he also thought they had to sell 200ml bottles by law too! or had some legal contract with the vitners or something. A few pubs sell cans, and I have seen some pubs sell 2L bottles of coke to families with kids, or pour from a 2L bottle and charge a reasonable price.

SteeveeDee

My local bar at home in Mayo charges 40c for mixer from a standard 2ltr bottle whatever it may be,granted there's not much of a choice but there you go.
Its an old family run bar,they never really had any small bottled soft drinks as far as I can remember.Basically they just do pints and spirits,mostly whiskey.A pint of Beamish is €2.80 Guinness/Smithwicks €3.00 a glass of powers is €2.85 and Connemara €3.00.This is all i drink there so don't know about any other beers.I'd be happy to pay some more given there were some better beers.Also two other plus' are the free tea and no extra charge for a hot whiskey,always amazes me what some folks charge for a bit of hot water and what not in a pub.
I must ask the barman/owner how his money is split.This is a rural bar by the by.

I must also add that it is one of them pub/shops of old,which maybe why they don't charge for the "bits and pieces" but I honestly think that it just never crossed there mind to do so.

knipex

BaZmO* wrote: »

That's some markup!

Apart from the VAT, which is paid by the customer, the rest is profit then? Or is there some other duty?


edit

Quick calculation..... (excuse any mistake)

Cost 0.85

Sale Price 4.50

Profit 3.65

less 21% VAT 0.63

= 3.02 net profit

Not net profit its Gross margin.

From that the publican has to pay rent, rates, wages, insurance, upkeep and maintenance, heating, glasses, tables chairs etc.

You add up gross margin take away overhead and then your left with net profit.

I know one small company where it costs 40K a month just to open his doors. he has to make a gross margin of 40k a month just to break even.

Prenderb

BaZmO* wrote: »

That's some markup!

Apart from the VAT, which is paid by the customer, the rest is profit then? Or is there some other duty?


edit

Quick calculation..... (excuse any mistake)

Cost 0.85

Sale Price 4.50

Profit 3.65

less 21% VAT 0.63

= 3.02 net profit

It's Gross profit, and all of the publican's costs have to come out of that. Though it still sounds nice!

bog master

irish_goat wrote: »

Pub I work in gets bottles of beer(heineken, bud etc) for about 85c each as far as I remember.

Steady on here lads! Lets talk bottles of Bud here 33 cl. From the cash n carry, which by the way is the only way a publican can buy bottles, cans, and spirits, the Net price ex of VAT is €27.75 for 24 bottles=€1.15, with a deposit charged on bottles, which must be collected and then put into the crate. A small bit of extra labour, but it all adds up. Yes, perhaps the mark up is high, but traditionally the pubs have always charged the least for pints, especially Guinness, and had higher margins on bottled beer, which is a recent phenonmenon. And the same could be said for soft drinks. But the popular bottled beers tend to be availabe in pints, which is better value.

Mixer wise, my local, if you are a regular, you are not charged for Seven-Up, ie for a vodka and seven. If you want Coke or Ginger etc., then you pay for the mixer.

It may be time to change, it may not be right, but thats the way it is now.

BTW, I am not a publican, i do bookkeeping for a few pubs, hence my insight. And again, my experience is with a rural type or lets say, non city or large town pub.

SteeveeDee

knipex wrote: »

Not net profit its Gross margin.

From that the publican has to pay rent, rates, wages, insurance, upkeep and maintenance, heating, glasses, tables chairs etc.

You add up gross margin take away overhead and then your left with net profit.

I know one small company where it costs 40K a month just to open his doors. he has to make a gross margin of 40k a month just to break even.

True,but not all pubs have this to deal with.Many rural pubs have no rent or wages to pay outright or have to replenish furniture regularly or have to hire security etc. They also don't suffer from the destruction of toilets that many city bars tend to,I'd imagine that alone is a fairly pricey problem.

I don't think i would go into the pub trade if its cost me 40k a month to operate, but thats just me.