POC's Red Card.++ Mod Warning. Read OP++

thehighground

BoarHunter wrote: »

Cudmore was not out of controle for nothing someone had to activate him. POC and DOC knew who to target as Cudmore is famous for being weak and even though he advised the line man that didn't allow POC to punch the guy on the ground.

I can talk to you abou this on IM if you want as this has nothing to do here and i'm sorry i have brought that up.

I think you should have a look at this again. Cudmore lays into Marcus Horan who has just tackled him before POC (or DOC) went anywhere near him.

PS - Cudmore is known for having an extremely poor disciplinary record - not being 'weak'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp5W_cwNnPo

thehighground

Lawstudent1 wrote: »

As someone who competes in combative sport I'd like to chime in here with my experience to correct a few people. Some posters are accusing Thomas of diving because (A) It wasn't an elbow it was forearm and (B) It only connected with the mouth i.e jaw area.

Just FYI, A forearm will generate a lot more force than an elbow and a forearm with that kind of momentum behind it connecting with the chin area will cause the legs to buckle. If anything Thomas would have been acting up had he fallen to the floor with an elbow to any other area of the face!

If you connect a strong blow on the area O'Connell hit then you're likely to at the very least cause someone to fall to the floor. If you were to factor in the fact that O'Connell is 18.5 stone and had a complete full swing of the forearm then I'd almost gaurantee the victim's legs would buckle. Whilst its true that the other player is almost as big as O'Connell the fact remains that when somone the size of O'Connell connects with that momentum and in the jaw area its going to bring someone to the floor. I was actually surpised Thomas wasn't KO'd from it if anything.

Too many armchair warriors on this forum giving completely wrong opinions in an area they obviously know nothing about.

My opinion : Straight Red, malice intended as he knew Thomas was behind him and after the whistle to make things worse. If it was a French or English player you'd be screaming for his head.

What are your views on this incident? (Julian White on Mal O'Kelly 2008 HCup).

White got a yellow card in the match and a 5 week suspension from the ERC!

"Mr. White admitted he was guilty of foul play in that he had punched Malcolm O'Kelly.

After considering the evidence available, the independent Disciplinary Committee determined that the offence was of mid-range in the level of seriousness. Having taken into account any mitigating and aggravating factors the Committee suspended the player for a period of five (5) weeks backdated from the week commencing Monday, 21 January, 2008, and running up to and including Sunday, 24 February, 2008."

Go to about 1.40 secs for a close-up of what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdNObgWW3jY

BoardsMember

thehighground wrote: »

What are your views on this incident? (Julian White on Mal O'Kelly 2008 HCup).

White got a yellow card in the match and a 5 week suspension from the ERC!

"Mr. White admitted he was guilty of foul play in that he had punched Malcolm O'Kelly.

After considering the evidence available, the independent Disciplinary Committee determined that the offence was of mid-range in the level of seriousness. Having taken into account any mitigating and aggravating factors the Committee suspended the player for a period of five (5) weeks backdated from the week commencing Monday, 21 January, 2008, and running up to and including Sunday, 24 February, 2008."

Go to about 1.40 secs for a close-up of what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdNObgWW3jY

All things being equal, and if you use that as the yardstick, POC should not get a ban. White went to town on him in the maul, and then had another good dig afterwards too.

All that shows is that White was let away far too kindly.

We shouldn't be trying to increase the level of thuggery required to earn a ban. We should be trying to enforce the basic rules and regulations with regards to violence as sternly as possible, and extrapolate bans such as the above incident to way over the "minimum" sanctions.

thehighground

Deleted User wrote: »

All that shows is that White was let away far too kindly.

We shouldn't be trying to increase the level of thuggery required to earn a ban. We should be trying to enforce the basic rules and regulations with regards to violence as sternly as possible, and extrapolate bans such as the above incident to way over the "minimum" sanctions.

It also suggests that Berdos has it in for POC. White gets a yellow for that attack on Mal and POC gets a red card!

Its up to the Disciplinary Committee (who is made up of experts) to set the standard first of all and then implement it consistently.

dermy

Precedence is everything, in this and in courts of law.

For the above White incident and for the Cudmore incident- Whatever about how it started or who started it, PoC delivered multiple direct and forceful punches to the face of Cudmore while Cudmore was in a headlock. Every one of which was worse than this hit. What was the deliberation? a yellow card for Poc and no ban.

and keep it in perspective- it was not an 'elbow smash'. It was a forearm, even wrist, smack on the jaw/neck. It was delivered above chest height, backwards, in about an 80 degree arc with no follow through and a limp elbow. He wasn't even properly looking at where the guy was.

I'm not saying he tickled him, I'm just saying this was probably a fraction of what PoC could deliver if he felt like it. And Thomas made the most out of it, possibly knowing that he could take out a key player for not just one but two major fixtures between the two sides. Which, if true, is far more disgusting if you ask me.

Also Berdos is a poor ref, just ask Brendan Venter (if he'll answer...) or even Joe Schmidt for their reactions to the same game he reffed.

Shelflife

A couple of things here, some posters are clinging to the hope that berdos has it in for poc, that it was a wrist to the upperchest area, that he wasnt looking where he hit, that he was provoked etc etc.

The appeals committe will review the available footage and will see poc swing and make contact with an opponent, they will see that it was a deliberate striking action and that it was dangerous.

fwiw when i saw it first i thought it was a yellow and that the red was over kill, when i saw the replays on here and saw that he cocked his arm and swung with intent and made a good connection i changed my mind.

did thomas milk it? not sure maybe he stayed down longer then he had to, but the fact of the matter is , he got a right clatter and wasnt expecting it, berdos had made up his mind at that stage , he was carded for the action not the result of the action.

5 weeks i think, maybe less for no previous.

thehighground

Shelflife wrote: »

A couple of things here, some posters are clinging to the hope that berdos has it in for poc, that it was a wrist to the upperchest area, that he wasnt looking where he hit, that he was provoked etc etc.

The appeals committe will review the available footage and will see poc swing and make contact with an opponent, they will see that it was a deliberate striking action and that it was dangerous.

fwiw when i saw it first i thought it was a yellow and that the red was over kill, when i saw the replays on here and saw that he cocked his arm and swung with intent and made a good connection i changed my mind.

did thomas milk it? not sure maybe he stayed down longer then he had to, but the fact of the matter is , he got a right clatter and wasnt expecting it, berdos had made up his mind at that stage , he was carded for the action not the result of the action.

5 weeks i think, maybe less for no previous.

What good is a hope that Berdos has it in for POC? POC has already got a red card & has been cited!

Just compare the two incidents (Berdos was the ref. in both). In one, 19 stone prop Julian White lay into 18 stone Mal O'Kelly (who seemed to be able to withstand SEVERAL punches to his face without collapsing into a heap on the ground) got a yellow card and a five week ban. The fact that Mal was pulling at White was taken into consideration.

POC swings his arm because he is being held and gets Thomas in the mouth. He is red carded.

Do you really think that POC/Thomas was as serious as White/Mal and both deserved 5 weeks.

By the way, Cudmore got 5 weeks for hitting a defenseless player on the ground and continuing to fight with POC (and he is a serial offender). Cudmore's offense was considred to be "mid-range in the level of seriousness."

Shelflife

Its not about comparing white and poc, fwiw white is a thug and a year would be too short for him.

What good is a hope that Berdos has it in for POC? POC has already got a red card & has been cited!

im not saying that , some posters seem to be using it as an excuse or in hope of leniency.

the appaels commiitte will simply look at the footage and then decide what punishment fits that crime, they wont be looking at suspensions from previous years and using that to compare with.

im not saying he deserves 5 weeks , 2 would be adequate imo , but i think he may get 5.

thehighground

Shelflife wrote: »

Its not about comparing white and poc, fwiw white is a thug and a year would be too short for him.

What good is a hope that Berdos has it in for POC? POC has already got a red card & has been cited!

im not saying that , some posters seem to be using it as an excuse or in hope of leniency.

the appaels commiitte will simply look at the footage and then decide what punishment fits that crime, they wont be looking at suspensions from previous years and using that to compare with.

im not saying he deserves 5 weeks , 2 would be adequate imo , but i think he may get 5.

I would hope they work off precedents set. And previous record does have a bearing. For instance, Cudmore got an extra week because he had previous.

Worth reading some of their decisons here. Its very much like a court of law.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/disciplinary_news.php

suppafly

thehighground wrote: »

What are your views on this incident? (Julian White on Mal O'Kelly 2008 HCup).

White got a yellow card in the match and a 5 week suspension from the ERC!

"Mr. White admitted he was guilty of foul play in that he had punched Malcolm O'Kelly.

After considering the evidence available, the independent Disciplinary Committee determined that the offence was of mid-range in the level of seriousness. Having taken into account any mitigating and aggravating factors the Committee suspended the player for a period of five (5) weeks backdated from the week commencing Monday, 21 January, 2008, and running up to and including Sunday, 24 February, 2008."

Go to about 1.40 secs for a close-up of what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdNObgWW3jY

Shows exactly that O'Connel should have only gotten a yellow. White lashing into big mal. Dunno who he was wasn't sent off.


PS: thats me in the crowd shot shaking my head in disgust at the decision just after paul walks off the pitch

stevoslice

Up close footage of POC vs Thomas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyqwTFBH-3A

but seriously, definitely at least a yellow, at most red and a weeks ban.

buck65

2 weeks is the minimum here and most would be happy with that. Forget the Berdos has it in for him crap and all the other excuses - it is becoming embarassing at this stage. This is an open and shut case.

castie

If its run like a court of law then he should be "charged" with an elbow to the face ( this is what he was accused of in the game ).

However I doubt that will happen and they will realise Berdos's mistake and "charge" him with something else.

Paulw

castie wrote: »

If its run like a court of law then he should be "charged" with an elbow to the face ( this is what he was accused of in the game ).

However I doubt that will happen and they will realise Berdos's mistake and "charge" him with something else.

He has already been "charged" with "Striking an opponent with a hand, arm or fist", Law 10.4 (a).

That is what he will be judged on.

Berdos will not be the one who makes the decision, and will not be the one who decides on the penalty.

Berdos will give his side, so will POC.

After all the evidence is reviewed (testimony, video, photographs, etc), the citing commission will make their judgement known.

Webbs

dermy wrote: »

Precedence is everything, in this and in courts of law.

For the above White incident and for the Cudmore incident- Whatever about how it started or who started it, PoC delivered multiple direct and forceful punches to the face of Cudmore while Cudmore was in a headlock. Every one of which was worse than this hit. What was the deliberation? a yellow card for Poc and no ban.

and keep it in perspective- it was not an 'elbow smash'. It was a forearm, even wrist, smack on the jaw/neck. It was delivered above chest height, backwards, in about an 80 degree arc with no follow through and a limp elbow. He wasn't even properly looking at where the guy was.

I'm not saying he tickled him, I'm just saying this was probably a fraction of what PoC could deliver if he felt like it. And Thomas made the most out of it, possibly knowing that he could take out a key player for not just one but two major fixtures between the two sides. Which, if true, is far more disgusting if you ask me.

Also Berdos is a poor ref, just ask Brendan Venter (if he'll answer...) or even Joe Schmidt for their reactions to the same game he reffed.

Oh come on, POC swung back hard and is looking at Thomas when the forearm hits him. Look at the way Thomas goes down he almost crumples to the floor, it certainly isnt 'making the most of it'. If anyone gets thumped like that when not expecting it you will go down like a sack of spuds.

Do you genuinely think in that split second he was thinking ' I know if I go down on the floor I will get this player sent off' if you do then you can thank your stars you've never taking a smack in the mouth!

I'm all for debating whether this is an incident that deserves a 2week ban or a 10 week ban but don't question another players integrity for getting a smack in the head when all he did was tug a jersey that happens a hundred times in a game.
Berdos while I agree he had an awful game (but for reasons you would not like) went and consulted his linesman and was left with no alternative in this case.

PhatPiggins

Webbs wrote: »

Oh come on, POC swung back hard and is looking at Thomas when the forearm hits him. Look at the way Thomas goes down he almost crumples to the floor, it certainly isnt 'making the most of it'. If anyone gets thumped like that when not expecting it you will go down like a sack of spuds.

Do you genuinely think in that split second he was thinking ' I know if I go down on the floor I will get this player sent off' if you do then you can thank your stars you've never taking a smack in the mouth!

I'm all for debating whether this is an incident that deserves a 2week ban or a 10 week ban but don't question another players integrity for getting a smack in the head when all he did was tug a jersey that happens a hundred times in a game.
Berdos while I agree he had an awful game (but for reasons you would not like) went and consulted his linesman and was left with no alternative in this case.

Watch more sport, you'd be suprised how many players can make this decision in such a short time frame.

tommy57

He knew what he was at I'm a fan of paul o connell but i'm not backing him on this one. he struck the player pure and simple ,he went straight down no acting. if this was any Irish player we'd all be in uproar.just because its Paul o connell peoples views are diffrent.

irishbucsfan

:pac:

Some of the stuff being said in here is ridiculous! You can see the force of the blow in the way it impacts on Thomas, his head in knocked back by it.

It wasn't an elbow, as the ref said, but it was still pretty vicious. I certainly wouldn't back myself keeping my consciousness after taking a blow like that.

The ERC are very harsh with their bans, but I can't see POC ending up with anything more than 3 weeks

The_Kew_Tour

If it was Welsh lad who did it to POC people would be saying how dirty they are.

Riskymove

I was at the game and clearly saw the incident

POC lamped him completely...there is no question of that...and no chance that it was a 'dive'......maybe he then milked it and made more of it, I dont know, but certainly he was knocked down by it

However, its also clear that POC did not elbow him which is what the ref said and motioned he was giving him a red card for. if what POC actually did is also a red card offence then there is no argument, if it is not, then there is a question that being given the red card was harsh.

I expect a couple of weeks ban

calvin_zola

premierstone wrote: »

Yeah your dead right POC is so unprofessional :rolleyes: cop yourself on lad, your were on here all last week spouting how Ospreys were definitely going to beat Munster, you called that fairly right too

I know I'm dead right, all you have to do is look at the video evidence and I feel justified in my statement. Think he should stick to the Milk ads to be honest now lads, bout all hes gonna be good for after that injury

buck65

A red card regardless of what part of the arm is the law. Berdos saying elbow will have little significance on the outcome. It will be judged as it appeared on TV I think.

calvin_zola

Deleted User wrote: »

Ridiculous thing to say about a guy who's spent so long on the sidelines. Obviously let the blood go to his head. It happens. he'll do his time.

No not ridiculous, quite true as it happens

d'Oracle

calvin_zola wrote: »

No not ridiculous, quite true as it happens

Hilarious.

Show a shred of proof.
Its not true, its complete speculation.

calvin_zola

calvin_zola wrote: »

No not ridiculous, quite true as it happens

Your original quote is

ity POC just couldn't play the game instead of demonstrating his level of or lack of professionalism yesterday

yup, still ridiculous.

premierstone

calvin_zola wrote: »

I know I'm dead right, all you have to do is look at the video evidence and I feel justified in my statement. Think he should stick to the Milk ads to be honest now lads, bout all hes gonna be good for after that injury

So you still stand by your claim that POC is unprofessional on the back of this one rash out of character act??

And your attempt at humor there has failed miserably, why do you think that a company such as that choose POC to front there campaign is it cos he's unprofessional or because he is an iconic figure within Irish sport??

OldRio

Originally Posted by calvin_zola
I know I'm dead right, all you have to do is look at the video evidence and I feel justified in my statement. Think he should stick to the Milk ads to be honest now lads, bout all hes gonna be good for after that injury

Very silly or a look at me type of post.:rolleyes:

toomevara

Handbags away and down a notch please folks, thanks.

Monty Burnz

*lowers handbag*