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Scientology , chiropractor connection

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    #62
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    I went to my first Chiropractor in 1992 and was she had 5 years training in the States and a further 2 years in Germany (Which may have been a specialism) it may have taken 5 years to gain initial qualification, but she had spent 7 years in total training. At the time she would have been one of the few Chiropractors in Ireland, before the gravy train arrived.
    I went the usually treatment paths which offered nothing and a Chiropractor I went to as a last resort sorted me out. It is what it is, no more, no less. So are you telling me what to believe now? Should I only believe what you believe then? Do you think I grasped the nice figure of 7 years training from my head?



    You can also buy your way into Medical School in Ireland as an overseas graduate. Do you know the amount of incompetents staffing surgical teams/medical teams out there? Do you know the difficulty I have had trying to instil standard hygiene practice with some of these twits in a clinical setting? Do you know the amount of bullsh1t artist that are going around wearing white coats? Don't get me started on people with bullsh1t qualifications.
    Wow you're an angry person

    Quick question -- do you agree that chiropractors that treat ailments other than back injuries are charlatans?


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    #63
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    I dunno.

    I think some people have an innate healing ability regardless of the work they do, rather than the method or training they have.

    Having said that, I reckon a lot of it comes down to the actual person being able to receive and accept the healing from the right person at the right time, rather than it being strictly scientific all of the time.


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    #64
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Darlughda wrote: »
    I dunno.

    I think some people have an innate healing ability regardless of the work they do, rather than the method or training they have.

    Why do you think that?
    Darlughda wrote: »
    Having said that, I reckon a lot of it comes down to the actual person being able to receive and accept the healing from the right person at the right time, rather than it being strictly scientific all of the time.

    Well it sounds like the 'healer' can't lose then. If the person isn't healed, then it just wasn't the right person or time! How are you supposed to tell when it's actually the healer that made the difference, as opposed to just the body's own healing abilities, placebo effect, etc.?

    But most importantly -- are there any cases of a healer 'healing' an amputated limb? Why do they only seem to heal ailments that have a habit of spontaneously remitting anyway?


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    #65
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    Dave! wrote: »
    Why do you think that?



    Well it sounds like the 'healer' can't lose then. If the person isn't healed, then it just wasn't the right person or time! How are you supposed to tell when it's actually the healer that made the difference, as opposed to just the body's own healing abilities, placebo effect, etc.?

    But most importantly -- are there any cases of a healer 'healing' an amputated limb? Why do they only seem to heal ailments that have a habit of spontaneously remitting anyway?

    Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of self professed healers and 'methods' of healing that are supposed to be amazing.

    What I mean is, I have come across people in my life whose very presence seems to have an unquantifiable effect on other people.
    Literally, in a healing capacity.
    The two people I am thinking of one is an interior designer, and the other a care worker. So neither are trying to peddle some kind of alternative medicine, yet I have seen with my own eyes how their very presence, attention and focus, on others (perhaps unknown to them) has had startling results in easing ailments and more specifically dissolving emotional problems like angst, anger and intense frustration.


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    #66
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I'm not arguing that homeopathy has puts forward claims that are most likely false especially since there is no mechanism for action however the "Belfast Study" did show an effect ref Inflammation Research, vol 53, p 181.
    In addition the success rates of some proper pharmaceuticals are no much higher than placebo anyway.
    In addition the standard of publishing of medical research is not what it should be.
    http://www.badscience.net/2009/10/and-now-nerd-news/

    Also to an outsider there appears to be a level of protection/sticking together among MD's in ireland that is very strong.
    An example of this is the fact that both Prof Corbally and Dr Paran are free to practice after making what must be the most amateur mistake or grossely negligent action possible, I can not see how both people involved are fit to practice.
    (I know one person who studied MRI and another therapeutic radiologist and they could not believe that this occurred with the amount of procedures in place to prevent exactly this event)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0904/1224278219154.html


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    #67
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Dave! wrote: »
    Wow you're an angry person


    Huh?....Angry?.....How?...We’ll have to rename this thread the ‘assumption’ thread. Asking people to read your post properly does not in anyway constitute anger. Will you please read all my posts properly. Having to repeat yourself is certainly tiring there's no doubt. But anger inducing, how?


    Dave! wrote: »
    Quick question -- do you agree that chiropractors that treat ailments other than back injuries are charlatans?


    If you brought your dog to a vet and he wanted to do give you an eye test, you would be alarmed wouldn’t you? You’d ask yourself how is he qualified to do so? It’s a ‘cop on’ issue really. I haven't been to a Chiropractor in many, many years thankfully because my back was sorted. But as far as I'm concerned a properly trained Chiropractor will specialise in the care of your back(spine) only. So I absolutely agree with you there and I’ve all ready hinted at this in my earlier posts, see below.


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    ....Since then, a lot of cowboys have popped up from the woodwork, motivated by money but that's to be expected.


    Note use of the term ‘Cowboys’ – self explanatory really. You say charlatans, I say cowboys , same difference really.

    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    ..At the time she would have been one of the few Chiropractors in Ireland, before the gravy train arrived.


    You see there again, I’m referring here to cowboys who hopped onto the Chiropractic ‘gravy train’. These would be the people who give good practitioners a bad name. These cowboys exist in all walks of life and are not exclusive to the subject matter concerned here. So once again I issue my now apparently futile cry, please read my posts properly if it’s not too much to ask.


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    #68
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    MingulayJohnny wrote: »
    By that logic then, there is no possibility of any effects whatsoever and therefore there's no point in trying it out since it does nothing. A treatment cannot be said to either cure you or do nothing. If it can cure you, then it can also potentially damage you. That's the complexity of biochemistry for you.

    I'm not trained in any scientific discipline but I don't understand why something which has the potential to cure should also have the potential to cause damage. I wouldn't simply believe that homeopathy works just on blind faith. I tried it for myself and it worked and it wasn't just subtle changes it was a vast improvement. Would you be willing to accept that maybe at some stage in the future science will verify that homeopathy does in fact work?.

    Did it ever occur to you that your chiropractor may have lightly hypnotised you and used suggestion to make you believe this?'Impossible' you will say, but it can be done quite easily.Many of these quack-scam treatments are merely the prelude to a hypnosis scam.

    I have attended a chiropractor and he did permanent damage to my back.Before we had chiropractors we had 'bone setters', who basically forced things back into place.Temporary relief with permanent damage.That is all chiros are.

    How many of them have medical degrees?Mine certainly didn't.Yet he claimed he could cure and prevent infectious disease through back-cracking.To bad he won't donate his services to the local AIDS clinic.

    How many qualified MDs with a reputable practise have suddenly turned to chiro?None that I know of.If chiro is for real, then all the orthopedic surgeons and consultants in the world are idiots.They are denying the truth of chiro's greatness.Maybe their licenses should be revoked.We could abolish conventional medicine altogether, and let chiro sort everything out.

    Who would you call if you had a pulmonary embolism?A chiropractor or an ambulance?Or how about if you had to choose either chiro or western medicine, for the rest of your life?


    Homeopathy is founded on scientific ignorance and the users desire to believe in it.Read up on Avogadro and you will see the proof that it is nonsense.Unless you can disprove Avogadro's claims, you are talking out your arse.


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    #69
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »


    Huh?....Angry?.....How?...We’ll have to rename this thread the ‘assumption’ thread. Asking people to read your post properly does not in anyway constitute anger. Will you please read all my posts properly. Having to repeat yourself is certainly tiring there's no doubt. But anger inducing, how?




    If you brought your dog to a vet and he wanted to do give you an eye test, you would be alarmed wouldn’t you? You’d ask yourself how is he qualified to do so? It’s a ‘cop on’ issue really. I haven't been to a Chiropractor in many, many years thankfully because my back was sorted. But as far as I'm concerned a properly trained Chiropractor will specialise in the care of your back(spine) only. So I absolutely agree with you there and I’ve all ready hinted at this in my earlier posts, see below.
    Then you're arguing apples and oranges since that's not the common usage meaning of chiropractor and its certainly not how any chiropractor that I've come across has advertised itself.
    Is love to know the name of the guy you used since he seems very much the exception.


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    #70
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    I went to my first Chiropractor in 1992 and was she had 5 years training in the States and a further 2 years in Germany (Which may have been a specialism) it may have taken 5 years to gain initial qualification, but she had spent 7 years in total training..


    Where in the USA did she train for 5 years?There is nowhere that offered or offers a 5 year course in Chiropractic here.She was obviously lying.

    Can you find out the name of this school she attended?And what about in Germany?It means nothing,just telling us she studied for 5 years in the US.


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    #71
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Nevore wrote: »
    ....that's not the common usage meaning of chiropractor and its certainly not how any chiropractor that I've come across has advertised itself.


    What does a ‘common usage meaning' mean? Do you mean - a 'meaning of' or a definition of? I never gave a definition of anything; I'll refer you to what I said....


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    ..But as far as I'm concerned a properly trained Chiropractor will specialise in the care of your back(spine) only.


    I did not give a definition of the term 'Chripractor', isn't that clear from the above?


    Nevore wrote: »
    ....love to know the name of the guy you used since he seems very much the exception.


    Again read the post, I made no reference to a man, I mentioned a ‘she’ - to mean a woman. I really can’t speculate on whether the woman who treated me was the exception to the rule or not. Nor will I attempt to, all I said from the very start was she sorted me out when conventional treatment (see my second post for definition of same) failed me. If you want her details please send me a PM. I don’t want to breach forum rules here by publishing her details. I will say is she is now based in her country of origin and has been since 1998.


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    #72
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »


    What does a ‘common usage meaning' mean? Do you mean - a 'meaning of' or a definition of? I never gave a definition of anything; I'll refer you to what I said....




    I did not give a definition of the term 'Chripractor', isn't that clear from the above?




    Again read the post, I made no reference to a man, I mentioned a ‘she’ - to mean a woman. I really can’t speculate on whether the woman who treated me was the exception to the rule or not. Nor will I attempt to, all I said from the very start was she sorted me out when conventional treatment (see my second post for definition of same) failed me. If you want her details please send me a PM. I don’t want to breach forum rules here by publishing her details. I will say is she is now based in her country of origin and has been since 1998.

    Unfortunately, the meaning of words is important. You are saying one thing and meaning another apparently. I suggest you go read up on what chiropractise means and you might then understand the vociferousness of opposition.


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    #73
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Where in the USA did she train for 5 years?

    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Can you find out the name of this school she attended? And what about in Germany?


    I went to a Chiropractor in 1993, I made 6 visits and you expect me to remember the professional institutions she studied at in Germany and the USA. Now if I had of known back then, that I would need to impart this information over 17 years later. I might have written it down for your review. So that was a terrible lack of foresight on my behalf, I really, really should have known, what was I thinking.......are you for real??.....are you serious???


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    There is nowhere that offered or offers a 5 year course in Chiropractic here. She was obviously lying.

    What are you on about training courses in Ireland for? You correctly stated earlier that she trained in the USA and Germany, so what has Ireland got to do with her training? How was she lying? She never said she trained in Ireland.

    But hey let’s play pretend here for a minute, just say the documents I looked at 17 and three quarter years ago were all fake. I’ll pretend she was a fake and wasn’t even qualified. That it was all an elaborate ruse, well do you know what? Fairplay to her because she sorted out my back problems where everyone else failed!

    Send me a PM if you wish, I will give you her name, details and the country she moved to. I’m sure you will be able to launch a full investigation and find out exactly if she was lying to me or not. Me, well I can’t say a bad word about her and I won’t be pressing charges.


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    #74
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Nevore wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the meaning of words is important.


    Thankfully you must have read some of my posts, because I been referring to misinterpretation in nearly all my posts. 'Meaning' is fortunate, it's only unfortunate when people don't get the meaning.



    Nevore wrote: »
    You are saying one thing and meaning another apparently.


    That is a truly, truly, amazing statement, to come out with that. Read all my posts and you will see my repeated consistency in all of them. Or copy and paste and read them all in one go. If anything I'll probably resemble a broken record in them.



    Nevore wrote: »
    I suggest you go read up on what chiropractise means.


    I've no need to look up a definition and yet again you don’t seem to be grasping what I've said earlier. I never gave a definition, I said..."as far as I'm concerned" - that's an opinion, not a clinical definition.


    Nevore wrote: »
    .the vociferousness of opposition.


    The context of the above statement is mind boggling, so you’re essentially saying there is an outcry against my own personal experience. How is that possible? Have I somehow lost sovereignty of my own personal experience? Is it not mine?

    Let’s put thing in perspective here, I went to a Chiropractor over 17 years ago in desperation – as a last resort. After 6 treatments this woman sorted my back out totally. I was able to get back playing Rugby and back into the gym after nearly 2 years on the sidelines. I have never looked back since.

    I had up to that point spent a fortune on Physiotherapy, Orthopaedic consultations and so on. My G.P. treated me like I was a cripple, that my active life was over. Thankfully I thought for myself eventually and an old gym buddy sent me in the right direction.

    So there you go, I had a great experience, maybe I was luck, I don’t know. You see I never said “Oh all Chiropractors are wonderful, aren’t they great?”. I even mentioned the ‘cowboys’ that are out there. I have not denigrated any other profession or alternative medicine. I have not warned people away from treatments that did not work for me. I have merely and consistently spoke about my own experience.


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    #75
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Darlughda wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of self professed healers and 'methods' of healing that are supposed to be amazing.

    What I mean is, I have come across people in my life whose very presence seems to have an unquantifiable effect on other people.
    Literally, in a healing capacity.
    The two people I am thinking of one is an interior designer, and the other a care worker. So neither are trying to peddle some kind of alternative medicine, yet I have seen with my own eyes how their very presence, attention and focus, on others (perhaps unknown to them) has had startling results in easing ailments and more specifically dissolving emotional problems like angst, anger and intense frustration.

    People are happier around nice people shocker....... has to be some sort of magic.


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    #76
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Darlughda wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of self professed healers and 'methods' of healing that are supposed to be amazing.

    What I mean is, I have come across people in my life whose very presence seems to have an unquantifiable effect on other people.
    Literally, in a healing capacity.
    The two people I am thinking of one is an interior designer, and the other a care worker. So neither are trying to peddle some kind of alternative medicine, yet I have seen with my own eyes how their very presence, attention and focus, on others (perhaps unknown to them) has had startling results in easing ailments and more specifically dissolving emotional problems like angst, anger and intense frustration.
    Yes that sounds very unquantifiable and vague and wishy-washy. Their personality is soothing or something, and it rubs off on other people that they are around. Nothing strange about that. When you say their presences 'eases ailments', I presume you don't mean ailments such as amputated limbs.

    Nothing magical going on here tbh.


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    #77
    Millicent
    Registered Users Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    pickarooney wrote: »
    What's the difference between a chiropractor and an osteopath? I googled them but was too lazy to read entire pages of possibly incorrect information so I'd prefer a few lines of more than likely erroneous answers.

    That's the crappest punchline I've ever heard. :pac:


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    #78
    AntiMatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 447 ✭✭AntiMatter


    Nevermind_ wrote: »
    Not exactly the new england journal of medicine now is it?
    Paper never refused ink, and anyone can say anything they like in a book without it having to be scientifically appraised.
    However a published academic paper in a journal is reviewed by peers and experts before a journal will agree to publish it.
    This is the one of the experiments discussed in the book. It was initiated by Madeleine Ennis, of Belfast, a homepathic sceptic, thinking it would be more grist to her mill...

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/376419/5-Prof-Enniss-Experiment-An-Experimental-Proof

    It should be noted, however, a repeat of the experiment for the Horizon BBC programme failed to reproduce the results, with Ennis later claiming the proper protocols hadn't been followed.
    I suggest to counterbalance the authors view you read a few reviews of his book such as

    http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2009/01/13_things_that_dont_make_sense.php

    He's hardly a proponent of homeopathy. The title of the chapter, ''Homeopathy. It's patently absurd, so why won't it go away?'', would be a clue as to his feelings on the subject.


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    #79
    r3nu4l
    Registered Users Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    It's generally refers to a standard treatment/diagnostic/care pathway that it instigated by your initial visit to a G.P. for example = G.P. + Physiotherapist + Orthopaedic referral ect. This route failed me, is that clearer now?
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Christ Jesus not again! It you read my first post you'll see this....



    In my second post I spelt out clearly what the term ‘all’ referred to.
    So if you had read my second post you would have read this.....



    I have underlined and put my answer in bold, you obviously didn’t see in the first time around. Otherwise you wouldn’t have asked me a question I already answered.
    Also the poster who’s cause you are so nobly championing, didn’t actually ask me a question. He cast an aspersion, there a big difference. Read the grammar and tone of the post and you might see it.


    Christ Jesus, not again!! If you read your first post you'll see that you used the words FOR EXAMPLE. This does NOT mean that you actually did try a physio and that's why I asked. If you read the tone and content of your own post and then mine you'll see why I asked...

    If you want a battle of high horses, semantics and pedantry I'll give ya one :D


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