Dangers of drinking cows milk, whey and casein

danlen

Was just having a read through some stuff by Phil Richards and came across this article:

http://www.philrichardsperformance.co.uk/problem-with-milk-whey-casein.html

Seems pretty severe. Are his points valid or is this article biased in order to get people to buy his 'green protein powder' promoted throughout the page?

What are people's general opinions on dairy produce and potential alternatives?

tHE vAGGABOND

I have heard many times that no one apart from soon to be mums and very young kids should be drinking full fat milk. [and them in moderation]

I could not tell you the last time I drank "real" milk.

I jump between slimline, super milk and soya for shakes and coffee

Adelie

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I have heard many times that no one apart from soon to be mums and very young kids should be drinking full fat milk. [and them in moderation]

I could not tell you the last time I drank "real" milk.

I jump between slimline, super milk and soya for shakes and coffee

But the fat is where the good parts of milk i.e. the fat-soluble vitamins are! If you drink slimline you get less nutrients and even slightly more of the potentially harmful stuff, lactose and casein... If you're going to give up any milk I'd give up skimmed. There are a lot of debates about whether milk is good or not but I certainly don't think the fat is the problem.

El_Dangeroso

Oh lordy, that website is very good at scaremongering isn't it?

Colin T. Campbell's casein-fed rats again, Chris Masterjohn addressed this study and there's more than meets the eye:

In the very paper (2) that Campbell cites as "a revelation to die for," showing that a high-protein diet turns the cancer switch to the "on" position, the low-protein diet proved lethal to the animals. The investigators gave rats a small dose of aflatoxin every day for six months and fed them either a 5 percent casein or 20 percent casein diet. The experiment carried on for two years, in fact, but they stopped adminstering aflatoxin at six months for the simple reason that half the animals on the low-protein diet had died. They had typical symptoms of aflatoxin toxicity including liver necrosis (cell death), proliferation of bile duct tissue, and fatty liver.

All the animals receiving 20 percent casein, on the other hand, were still alive at that point. For the remainder of the two years, the rats receiving 20 percent casein continued to live longer, but many of them developed liver cancer or pre-cancerous changes, while none of the rats fed 5 percent casein developed liver cancer.

So there's an easy way to prevent cancer, make sure you die before you get it.

Regarding the diabetes, it is true that many T1 diabetics exhibit antibodies to casein, but that makes sense when you remember that diabetes is an auto-immune condition and allergies are often expression of auto-immune dysfunction. The two go hand in hand. That's like saying that just because Christmas shopping and cold weather often occur together that Christmas shopping causes cold weather, which is a ridiculous notion but you wouldn't believe the amount of intelligent people make this mistake when it confirms a personal bias (myself included!).

I'm not saying that dairy doesn't cause issues for some, possibly a lot of people, it does. But if your a healthy person that has no leaky gut or auto-immune issues, then dairy can be a good source of nutrition, especially K2 if you don't eat organ meats. The best way to have it is raw and organic but failing that organic will do.

CathyMoran

Needless scaremongering and they are obviously trying to sell a product. I drink full fat milk, always have (am pregnant at the moment). I need the extra calories as I am an oeosphageal cancer survivor, I also hate the taste of low fat milk. I will eat low fat yogurt though.

Bottle_of_Smoke

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I have heard many times that no one apart from soon to be mums and very young kids should be drinking full fat milk. [and them in moderation]

I could not tell you the last time I drank "real" milk.

I jump between slimline, super milk and soya for shakes and coffee

Heard soya milk can reduce testosterone - not something you'd want to be doing if you're trying to build muscle

El_Dangeroso

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Heard soya milk can reduce testosterone - not something you'd want to be doing if you're trying to build muscle

It can do but I don't think that's been conclusively shown for everyone, it does have protease inhibitors that prevents the absorption of protein along with a number of gut irritants.

ciagr297

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I'm not saying that dairy doesn't cause issues for some, possibly a lot of people, it does. But if your a healthy person that has no leaky gut or auto-immune issues, then dairy can be a good source of nutrition, especially K2 if you don't eat organ meats.

Interesting - do you have any links for scientific articles linking leaky gut to dairy issues?
Any specific forms of leaky gut syndrome? There are quite a few that I remember

El_Dangeroso

ciagr297 wrote: »

Interesting - do you have any links for scientific articles linking leaky gut to dairy issues?
Any specific forms of leaky gut syndrome? There are quite a few that I remember

Is there? I don't know to be perfectly honest. All I know if the one where they test it by dosing with mannitol and lactulose and seeing how much makes it into the urine, a PEG test.

Casein has the ability to open up tight junctions in the gut for sure, but only if the full peptide makes it to the gut intact. This will even happen in cows and the milk is meant for them! But in a healthy body that doesn't happen because pepsin gets there first and breaks down the peptide even a little bit which deactivates the tight junction opening ability.

The connection between leaky gut and dairy seems largely centered around whether the pepsin enzyme is doing it's thing, if it is then it's all good, if not, you have an issue with dairy and it needs to be avoided, at least until everything is back working as it should be.

Gluten on the other hand is just bad news for pretty much everyone, unless you are one of the lucky 17% of people who's gut isn't damaged by it of course.

teacosy

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Is there? I don't know to be perfectly honest. All I know if the one where they test it by dosing with mannitol and lactulose and seeing how much makes it into the urine, a PEG test.

Casein has the ability to open up tight junctions in the gut for sure, but only if the full peptide makes it to the gut intact. This will even happen in cows and the milk is meant for them! But in a healthy body that doesn't happen because pepsin gets there first and breaks down the peptide even a little bit which deactivates the tight junction opening ability.

The connection between leaky gut and dairy seems largely centered around whether the pepsin enzyme is doing it's thing, if it is then it's all good, if not, you have an issue with dairy and it needs to be avoided, at least until everything is back working as it should be.

Gluten on the other hand is just bad news for pretty much everyone, unless you are one of the lucky 17% of people who's gut isn't damaged by it of course.

Reference?

El_Dangeroso

teacosy wrote: »

Reference?

Here you go:

http://gut.bmj.com/content/56/6/889.extract

You'll need the full text to get the whole story, it really is an excellent paper.

WildBoots

danlen wrote: »

Was just having a read through some stuff by Phil Richards and came across this article:

http://www.philrichardsperformance.co.uk/problem-with-milk-whey-casein.html

Seems pretty severe. Are his points valid or is this article biased in order to get people to buy his 'green protein powder' promoted throughout the page?

What are people's general opinions on dairy produce and potential alternatives?

I think raw milk is the best, and although it doesn't suit everyone, it's a lot better than some of the alternatives out there. A lot of the milk substitutes, especially soy milk, are highly processed and borderline toxic to the body. If you really don't want to drink normal milk, you can make your own almond milk or hemp milk by blending almonds/hemp seeds in water (I like the hemp milk but the almond milk is an acquired taste).

I get my milk from a farmer down the road, he lets me take as much as I want for free and I give him fruit and veg from my garden when it's available . I don't think it suits everyone though, if you know your body at aall you should be able to figure this out for yourself, no tests or doctors needed.

This site has some good info:

http://www.westonaprice.org/

teacosy

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Here you go:

http://gut.bmj.com/content/56/6/889.extract

You'll need the full text to get the whole story, it really is an excellent paper.

But that's just a pilot study with a sample of 3 non coeliacs?

El_Dangeroso

teacosy wrote: »

But that's just a pilot study with a sample of 3 non coeliacs?

That's why you need to read the whole thing. The full text says 'at least 3', they actually used 6 non-coeliacs:

All patients with and without CD on GFD
who were challenged with the gliadin solution
produced IL15 when compared with the basal
culture (fig 1A). Moreover, the IL15-mediated
response in patients without CD was also
triggered by the toxic 19-mer gliadin peptide
(three of six) and, especially, by the 33-mer
gliadin peptide (five of six). I

So around 83% of people that have zero outwardly identifiable gluten sensitivity have an immune reaction to wheat gluten that is identifiable by an incredibly sensitive assay, only one person did not have this reaction. Yes the study would be much more powerful if there were 50 people in the study but this research has a rich context of other studies showing the adverse effect that modern high-yield semi-dwarf wheat has on health.

Frank Bullitt

He is really pushing his supplement in that article, not quite sure what to think of it.

BengaLover

I have always believed that milk is for baby cows and not suitable for humans.
Unfortunately soy/rice/oat milks are quite expensive.

Torakx

What exactly does everyone think we need milk for? I had figured there should be enough calcium in the veg we eat.It is a good source of protein and fat i suppose but that can be gotten in other ways.

El_Dangeroso

Torakx wrote: »

What exactly does everyone think we need milk for? I had figured there should be enough calcium in the veg we eat.It is a good source of protein and fat i suppose but that can be gotten in other ways.

It can for sure. The main thing would be K2 MK-4 unless you eat a lot of organ meats. There's also CLA and tonnes of other goodies like vitamin A, vitamin E, carotenes and some omega-3. I wouldn't rely on dairy as my sole source of calcium, that's what bone broth is for!

No food is mandatory, that's why humans can live all over the world and eat foods native to the region, we're incredibly adaptable as a species, part of this ability to adapt was discovering cow's milk was incredibly nutrient rich and that cheese and cream are delicious.

teacosy

BengaLover wrote: »

I have always believed that milk is for baby cows and not suitable for humans.
Unfortunately soy/rice/oat milks are quite expensive.

The "humans are the only species to drink another's milk" argument has always amused me. Firstly, it's quite tricky to milk a cow/other mammal, so most animals who might otherwise lap up another's milk couldn't possibly. Secondly, given the opportunity, many animals would drink another milk - for example i've seen foxes lap up the frothy dribbles left on the grass after a calf has had his fill from mammy cow.

spiralbound

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

That's why you need to read the whole thing. The full text says 'at least 3', they actually used 6 non-coeliacs:



So around 83% of people that have zero outwardly identifiable gluten sensitivity have an immune reaction to wheat gluten that is identifiable by an incredibly sensitive assay, only one person did not have this reaction. Yes the study would be much more powerful if there were 50 people in the study but this research has a rich context of other studies showing the adverse effect that modern high-yield semi-dwarf wheat has on health.

That paper is quite confusing - they say they used 'at least three patients with CD' and three without, but according to the footnote at the base of Table 1 says the final diagnosis was non-coeliac in all cases.

Anyway, their six patients all had symptoms of gastric distress, ranging from diarrhoea to colic, and they were diagnosed with a range of illnesses. So they preselected subjects that might have a gluten issue. And only used 6.

It's quite a stretch to say from these results that only 17% of people can tolerate gluten.

El_Dangeroso

spiralbound wrote: »

That paper is quite confusing - they say they used 'at least three patients with CD' and three without, but according to the footnote at the base of Table 1 says the final diagnosis was non-coeliac in all cases.

Anyway, their six patients all had symptoms of gastric distress, ranging from diarrhoea to colic, and they were diagnosed with a range of illnesses. So they preselected subjects that might have a gluten issue. And only used 6.

It's quite a stretch to say from these results that only 17% of people can tolerate gluten.

You're right that paper is confusing, can you quote where it said they all had symptoms of gastric distress? If I missed that then I'll totally take that into consideration. Even so, what percentage of the population do you reckon is entirely without digestive issues of any kind (heartburn, diarrhoea, constipation, indigestion, IBS, collitis, gall stones, ulcers)?

Modern wheat increases the proportion of small LDL and increases visceral fat (wheat belly). This is obvious as the opposite is what happens when someone eliminates wheat from their diet.

Wheat also exacerbates pretty much any auto-immune disease you can care to mention as well as bearing a strong association with various mental disorders. It acts on the opiate receptors on the brain and encourages hyperphagia or overeating.

Wheat also reduces the half-life of vitamin D, something that Irish people are already deficient in.

Will all the above happen to everyone? Nope, but will every cigarette smoker get a disease of the lung? Nope, still means there's nothing good about cigarettes. Wheat is deeply creepy, we don't have the well designed trials to prove it yet but there's enough indirect evidence for me to heartily recommend it's avoidance, considering that it's quite nutritionally poor in the first place.

teacosy

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

You're right that paper is confusing, can you quote where it said they all had symptoms of gastric distress? If I missed that then I'll totally take that into consideration. Even so, what percentage of the population do you reckon is entirely without digestive issues of any kind (heartburn, diarrhoea, constipation, indigestion, IBS, collitis, gall stones, ulcers)?

Modern wheat increases the proportion of small LDL and increases visceral fat (wheat belly). This is obvious as the opposite is what happens when someone eliminates wheat from their diet.

Wheat also exacerbates pretty much any auto-immune disease you can care to mention as well as bearing a strong association with various mental disorders. It acts on the opiate receptors on the brain and encourages hyperphagia or overeating.

Wheat also reduces the half-life of vitamin D, something that Irish people are already deficient in.

Will all the above happen to everyone? Nope, but will every cigarette smoker get a disease of the lung? Nope, still means there's nothing good about cigarettes. Wheat is deeply creepy, we don't have the well designed trials to prove it yet but there's enough indirect evidence for me to heartily recommend it's avoidance, considering that it's quite nutritionally poor in the first place.

Eh? that's a new one for me - do you have a (satisfactory) reference?

El_Dangeroso

teacosy wrote: »

Eh? that's a new one for me - do you have a (satisfactory) reference?

Reduced plasma half-life of radio-labelled 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 in subjects receiving a high-fibre diet.

(The fibre in question was wheat bran, it reduced vitamin D in the body 43% faster compared to control.)

'Satisfactory' enough for ya?:p

teacosy

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Reduced plasma half-life of radio-labelled 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 in subjects receiving a high-fibre diet.

(The fibre in question was wheat bran, it reduced vitamin D in the body 43% faster compared to control.)

'Satisfactory' enough for ya?:p

sorry, think you forgot the link???;)

spiralbound

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

You're right that paper is confusing, can you quote where it said they all had symptoms of gastric distress? If I missed that then I'll totally take that into consideration. Even so, what percentage of the population do you reckon is entirely without digestive issues of any kind (heartburn, diarrhoea, constipation, indigestion, IBS, collitis, gall stones, ulcers)?

Modern wheat increases the proportion of small LDL and increases visceral fat (wheat belly). This is obvious as the opposite is what happens when someone eliminates wheat from their diet.

Wheat also exacerbates pretty much any auto-immune disease you can care to mention as well as bearing a strong association with various mental disorders. It acts on the opiate receptors on the brain and encourages hyperphagia or overeating.

Wheat also reduces the half-life of vitamin D, something that Irish people are already deficient in.

Will all the above happen to everyone? Nope, but will every cigarette smoker get a disease of the lung? Nope, still means there's nothing good about cigarettes. Wheat is deeply creepy, we don't have the well designed trials to prove it yet but there's enough indirect evidence for me to heartily recommend it's avoidance, considering that it's quite nutritionally poor in the first place.

Table 1 in the paper (I've copied and pasted it here but I don't know how to format it correctly).

Table 1 Gliadin-challenged patients without coeliac disease
Patient
no Duodenal mucosa
Age
(years) Symptoms Diagnosis
1 Normal 51 Unfiliated ferropenia Undiagnosed (non-coeliac)
2 Normal 63 Pyrosis Hiatus hernia, GORD
3 Chronic
inflammation
46 Colic abdominal pain Chronic gastritis
4 Chronic
inflammation
54 Epigastric pain Chronic gastritis
5 Normal 16 Diarrhoea Protracted diarrhoea
6 Normal 71 Dyspepsia Polyps in stomach, Helicobacter
GORD, gastroesophageal reflux disease.
The final diagnosis of the patients was non-coeliac in all the cases. Those with chronic inflammation had
normal villi as well as no intraepithelial lymphocytosis. All the patients were biopsy cultured in basal
medium and challenged with both the 19- and the 33-mer gliadin peptides. Patients 1–3 were also
challenged with gliadin.

El_Dangeroso

spiralbound wrote: »

Table 1 in the paper (I've copied and pasted it here but I don't know how to format it correctly).

Table 1 Gliadin-challenged patients without coeliac disease
Patient
no Duodenal mucosa
Age
(years) Symptoms Diagnosis
1 Normal 51 Unfiliated ferropenia Undiagnosed (non-coeliac)
2 Normal 63 Pyrosis Hiatus hernia, GORD
3 Chronic
inflammation
46 Colic abdominal pain Chronic gastritis
4 Chronic
inflammation
54 Epigastric pain Chronic gastritis
5 Normal 16 Diarrhoea Protracted diarrhoea
6 Normal 71 Dyspepsia Polyps in stomach, Helicobacter
GORD, gastroesophageal reflux disease.
The final diagnosis of the patients was non-coeliac in all the cases. Those with chronic inflammation had
normal villi as well as no intraepithelial lymphocytosis. All the patients were biopsy cultured in basal
medium and challenged with both the 19- and the 33-mer gliadin peptides. Patients 1–3 were also
challenged with gliadin.

Dang tables, nice catch. I still think it's a ground-breaking paper. No-one thought that the gut was damaged by gluten in non-coeliacs before. This one is similar too:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/apl/sgas/2006/00000041/00000004/art00007;jsessionid=1acnoimmvf8go.alexandra

In that there were samples included from non-coeliacs with suspected gluten intolerance. This to me means that gluten intolerance is very serious even if it isn't overt coeliac disease.

Teacosy, google is your friend;) (almost typed gluten is your friend by accident there, freudian slip!)

paky

i always found the idea of drinking cows milk quite ridiculous. ive been vegan almost a year now and giving up dairy was 20 times harder than giving up meat. i had severe withdrawal symptoms, headace, mental fog and lightheadedness for 2 weeks or so. very hard indeed. drinking milk once in a while may not do you harm in the long run but its so prevalent in everyday foods that i suspect it contributes to many diseases including cancer and it is probably one of the most overlooked causes of it.

i dont drink soya by the way or eat it

El_Dangeroso

paky wrote: »

i always found the idea of drinking cows milk quite ridiculous. ive been vegan almost a year now and giving up dairy was 20 times harder than giving up meat. i had severe withdrawal symptoms, headace, mental fog and lightheadedness for 2 weeks or so. very hard indeed. drinking milk once in a while may not do you harm in the long run but its so prevalent in everyday foods that i suspect it contributes to many diseases including cancer and it is probably one of the most overlooked causes of it.

i dont drink soya by the way or eat it

It clearly doesn't agree with you if you had that severe a withdrawal, sounds nasty.

Trust me, the milk-cancer connection has been studied so much, there is a LOT of funding for vegan diet studies. The best they could come up with was the casein fed rats, which have been debunked above. The evidence is so weak as to be non-existent.

paky

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

It clearly doesn't agree with you if you had that severe a withdrawal, sounds nasty.

Trust me, the milk-cancer connection has been studied so much, there is a LOT of funding for vegan diet studies. The best they could come up with was the casein fed rats, which have been debunked above. The evidence is so weak as to be non-existent.

so you believe that cows milk has no effect on the human body?

--Kaiser--

paky wrote: »

so you believe that cows milk has no effect on the human body?

That sentence is so vague as to be entirely pointless.

Here's some of the negative health effects of soy

http://www.holisticwellnessblog.com/nutrition/no-joy-in-soy-why-soy-is-bad-for-you/

http://www.skrewtips.com/2008/02/08/oh-soy-bad-how-we-are-mislead-about-the-benefits-of-soy/

El_Dangeroso

paky wrote: »

so you believe that cows milk has no effect on the human body?

What do you mean by 'effect'? Everything we eat affects us somehow, that's the nature of metabolism. If you mean that cows milk suits everyone? Then I would say, no, probably not. But is it a nutritious net-benefit for those who can consume it with no ill effect? Most likely, yes, from what we can tell from the current science.

Fun fact: the most commonly consumed milk in the world is camel's milk. I'd love to try some!

paky

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

That sentence is so vague as to be entirely pointless.

Here's some of the negative health effects of soy

http://www.holisticwellnessblog.com/nutrition/no-joy-in-soy-why-soy-is-bad-for-you/

http://www.skrewtips.com/2008/02/08/oh-soy-bad-how-we-are-mislead-about-the-benefits-of-soy/

lol what has soy to do with this? you should look at my previous posts.

WildBoots

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Fun fact: the most commonly consumed milk in the world is camel's milk. I'd love to try some!

Don't drink too much or it might give ya the hump....:P

Sapsorrow

I've gotten to the stage where I just don't worry about the dairy thing any more, it tastes so damn good I'm happy to take my chances and enjoy things like double cream, butter and good cheese every day now. That any working on a cheese stall doesn't leave me with much will power to avoid the stuff at the end of the day You only live once and there's no point fussing about every little thing you put in your mouth. I tried the vegan thing for a few years and I missed cheese and butter so desperately, I'm much happier now I can take a drop of cream in my coffee. Better off to worry about the gluten, lectins, anti-nutrients, sugar and vegetable oils you may be consuming. Things that have are very very likely to have negative impact on your long term health. I think if you're outside the EU then it's important to make sure you're getting organic dairy though. There's a lot to be said for the health benefits of live yoghurt too, whatever one may think about milk or cheese.

paky

<snip>

Banned - Mr Magnolia

scarymoon1

someone mentioned here about drinking raw milk - I used to drink unpasteurized mail when I was younger and then I developed type 1 diabetes when I was 22. Its claimed one of the causes of type 1 diabates is raw dairy products ( i read it somewhere - dont know how true it is ) so I wouldnt advise to drink raw milk.

El_Dangeroso

scarymoon1 wrote: »

someone mentioned here about drinking raw milk - I used to drink unpasteurized mail when I was younger and then I developed type 1 diabetes when I was 22. Its claimed one of the causes of type 1 diabates is raw dairy products ( i read it somewhere - dont know how true it is ) so I wouldnt advise to drink raw milk.

Although raw milk is NOT suitable for vunerable people like the immuno-compromised or pregnant women, AND you have to be sure the source is pristine and fresh, it's very unlikely raw milk can cause type 1 diabetes. If that was the case we would see really high prevalence of it amongst cultures that drink raw milk (like the Masai) and we actually see a lower prevalence.

danlen

It seems like there is very little conclusive evidence for the consumption of dairy either way. So we know it has a good protein and fat profile and it contains important vitamins and minerals. And we also know that some people cannot tolerate it.

So is it safe to say that at the moment we just don't know whether consuming dairy is a good or a bad choice from a health perspective?

metamorphosis

Why does this forum make things soooo complicated

*if you can consume dairy without any side effects/gastro intestinal etc then there's no reason not to have it if you want it

*if you have issues with dairy then maybe that is a sign not to have it

Renn

I agree ULstudent, but that said, I'd no known issues with grains but I've still given them up.

Btw, a drop of double cream to me = 100ml. 3 times a day. I love it.

--Kaiser--

scarymoon1 wrote: »

someone mentioned here about drinking raw milk - I used to drink unpasteurized mail when I was younger and then I developed type 1 diabetes when I was 22. Its claimed one of the causes of type 1 diabates is raw dairy products ( i read it somewhere - dont know how true it is ) so I wouldnt advise to drink raw milk.

Where is it claimed? I've never heard this before so I'm going to out on a limb and say it's balderdash (28 years of drinking raw milk, and counting)

El_Dangeroso

On the topic of type 1 diabetes and milk, just came across the following:

http://healthcareupdates.com/2010/12/22/type-1-diabetes-mellitus-and-possible-causes-of-it/

So cow's milk could possibly be a factor in developing diabetes (though nothing is mentioned about raw or otherwise), if it is given to infants instead of breastmilk or if infants are weaned too soon, though it is harder to differentiate whether the lack of breastmilk is actually the main contributing factor.

It has to be said that there is some evidence that dairy fat appears to be protective against type II diabetes.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dairy-fat-and-diabetes.html