RTE Two transmitting in HD resolution

Kristopherus

For the life of me I cannot understand why Rte didnt leave rte2 as both SD & HD. The vast majority of recipients of DTT will not have HD television sets.

watty

Beceause that would WASTE the space of a channel!

ALL Saorview compatible setbox will downsample to SCART for old TV

ALL TVs that have built in tuner able to receive Saorview are HD.

ALL recipients of Irish DTT can receive HD, even if they don't have an HDTV.

watty

Deleted User wrote: »

is that a standardised 'saorview' box or just compatible?

It's officially certified.

A "Freeview HD" or "Freeview+ HD" box or TV is "compatible" but not certified.

Don't confuse "Freeview HD" and "Freeview" quite different!

A "Freeview" box usually does not work at all.
A "Freeview" TV, even if "HD Ready" or "Full HD" may not work. In fact it may not receive HD anywhere. It could be just a video monitor for HD. You need to be expert at reading specifications to know.

However a Saorview box or TV will not work with "Freeview HD" in UK unless it has a DVB-T2 tuner, otherwise it only receives "Freeview".
http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

The Cush

glineli wrote: »

Stupid question but how can you tell that it's only upscaled?

glineli wrote: »

Thanks watty. I was asking was there anyway to know either through the epg, maybe the info button on the tv or some other way If it's hd. The info button just says 1080i and hd

byte wrote: »

I'd hope that when RTÉ 2 is airing HD content, it'll add "HD" to the DOG, so as people can tell if what they're watching is HD or just upscaled. Obviously, the better picture should help, but a graphic or better still, listed on the Info would do the trick.

That's the plan, this from RTÉ

It is planned that the service will carry a new logo/bug ‘RTÉ 2 HD’ and also a short animation will be played, probably a lower third super, on handover to the live event.
...
In all cases the transmission schedule/running order will contain specific data to indicate the true HD events.

The Cush

Kristopherus wrote: »

For the life of me I cannot understand why Rte didnt leave rte2 as both SD & HD. The vast majority of recipients of DTT will not have HD television sets.

This from RTÉ (also no available capacity on Mux 1 once the RTÉjr/RTÉ Plus channel launches)

Technical Requirements for Households

Households wishing to access RTÉ Two HD Select, RTÉ News Now, RTÉjr, RTÉ Plus and RTÉ Aertel Digital will require a DTT receiver, either a Set Top Box (STB) or integrated Digital TV (iDTV) that is compliant with, or equal to, the Irish / SAORVIEW minimum receiver specification, (published in 2008), and an UHF receiver aerial. This is the same equipment as is required by any person wishing to access any terrestrial free-to-air services post ASO in October 2012.

To avoid the requirement to simulcast services (i.e. in HD and SD) and to optimise bandwith usage as services migrate to HD, the Irish / SAORVIEW minimum receiver specification for Set Top Boxes (STBs) requires that the STB is capable of outputting all television services, whether they are broadcast in HD or SD, via a SCART connector.

Using an approved STB:

• HD and / or SD services carried on DTT will be viewable on any HD-ready TV (SAORVIEW approved or not) via a HDMI lead connected between the TV and a STB. HD services will appear as HD and SD as SD.
• HD and / or SD services carried on DTT will be viewable on legacy TV set with a SCART socket, via a SCART lead connected between the TV set and a STB.
• HD and / or SD services carried on DTT will be viewable on legacy TV sets, without a SCART socket, via a SCART to RF Modulator/Adaptor and SCART lead connected between the TV and a STB.
• SAORVIEW approved iDTVs will display HD as HD and SD as SD.

7.i. RTÉ Two HD Select

• The delivery of high quality pictures and sound to large screens in High Definition is the future of television in the home. This has been made possible by the introduction of digital systems and advances in display technologies. HD Ready TV sets are widely available and High Definition television will fully overtake existing standard definition services over time. This transition has been most prevalent in genres such as sport and film where the significantly enhanced picture and sound quality allow for a richer and much improved user experience.

• ‘Up-converting’
High Definition television is a new production and delivery standard. The technical detail of how signals are captured, stored and retransmitted is completely new and all elements of the broadcast chain must be able to handle this new standard. Under these proposals, when RTÉ Two HD Select begins HD transmissions it will also upconvert standard definition content. The SD up-converter allows SD content to be carried in the new HD standard but obviously is not delivered in true HD quality. However high quality SD images when up-converted to HD with the best available technologies will be reproduced very well using HD systems in the home. This is because is HD systems allow an increased volume of data to be delivered. High quality SD pictures delivered via HD systems to the home will look better to the viewer than if delivered via traditional SD services.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

A "Freeview" TV, even if "HD Ready" or "Full HD" doesn't work. In fact it will never receive HD anywhere. It's just a video monitor for HD.

Not 100% correct.

Between myself and my siblings we have 5 freeview certified TVs (with MPEG-4 decoders) all happily receiving the 7 DTT channels (incl RTÉ 2 HD) and 10 radio channels (also 1 freeview MPEG-2 TV/monitor used for the analogue channels/freesat in a bedroom) .

Before anyone considers purchasing a freeview certified TV they must do the research and ensure that the TV has an MPEG-4 decoder. (A freeview-HD and/or Saorview certified receiver eliminates the research and will receive the Irish DTT channels)

watty

I'm talking in a general sense. If someone goes into Tesco and sees a box with "Freeview" on it they are best to assume it doesn't work.

Before anyone considers purchasing a freeview certified TV they must do the research and ensure that the TV has an MPEG-4 decoder. (A freeview-HD and/or Saorview certified receiver eliminates the research and will receive the Irish DTT channels)

If they are able to do this, they don't need to be told and if they are not able to do this they are better assuming Freeview TVs may not work?

I have edited the original post to leave Weasel Room.

A "Freeview" TV, even if "HD Ready" or "Full HD" may not work. In fact it may not receive HD anywhere. It could be just a video monitor for HD. You need to be expert at reading specifications to know.

I know of course that there are actually Freeview models with MPEG4 and HD. Most people as evidenced by the posts here are not able to do the research and are fooled by things like "MPEG4" video playback from USB stick or DVD R data on set box or TV that is just Xvid/DivX etc and not H.264 / AVC or AAC+/HE-AAC etc on tuner.

If someone ALREADY has a "Freeview" TV then they can easily see if it works. But anyone is mad to go out and buy a "Freeview" TV, even with MPEG4 HD as they are now essentially obsolete in UK as they went for T2. The last time I bought a CRT, a 32" Widescreen was €800. There are plenty of sub €500 and even sub €400 TVs unambigiously Irish TV compatible.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Most people as evidenced by the posts here are not able to do the research and are fooled by things like "MPEG4" video playback ...

I'd consider anyone posting a question here as doing research, if you can't interpret the spec ask someone who can. We've all answered questions for over the last two years based on our experencies receiving the engineering tests with non T2 equipment.

BTW what TV/STBs did/do you use to watch the engineering tests/trial launch? Freeview/TNT-HD certified?

Mayo Exile

watty wrote: »

It's officially certified.

A "Freeview HD" or "Freeview+ HD" box or TV is "compatible" but not certified.

Don't confuse "Freeview HD" and "Freeview" quite different!

A "Freeview" box usually does not work at all.
A "Freeview" TV, even if "HD Ready" or "Full HD" may not work. In fact it may not receive HD anywhere. It could be just a video monitor for HD. You need to be expert at reading specifications to know.

However a Saorview box or TV will not work with "Freeview HD" in UK unless it has a DVB-T2 tuner, otherwise it only receives "Freeview".
http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

Watty, do you know of any Saorview certified STB's with a recording facility similar to a UK Freeview+ HD box due for the Irish market in the future?

watty

The Cush wrote: »

I'd consider anyone posting a question here as doing research, if you can't interpret the spec ask someone who can. We've all answered questions for over the last two years based on our experencies receiving the engineering tests with non T2 equipment.

BTW what TV/STBs did/do you use to watch the engineering tests/trial launch? Freeview/TNT-HD certified?

Two you can't even buy

I also tested the Neotion CAM ( I got it, TV set and Setbox all supplied) and quickly confirmed with Neotion it would never do HD, that it was poorer quality and ran too hot.

I was also using all this to test my own DVB-T and DVB-C MPEG4 licensed transmissions (not on UHF) from pre-encoded MPEG2-TS files driving PCI DVB modulator cards (about €1,200 and €2,100 versions).


No idea who will have a "certified" recording / PVR first.

watty

I had
Two Custom Real Multimendia Realbox PVR with dual tuners. (lovely HW, but rubbish SW and too big). Supplied direct.
One Lyngbox with DTT + Sat tuners. Nice looking SW and box, but tended to crash.
Technisat DTT box
Phillips HDTV
various PC cards

Brilliant Motorola combo DVB + VOD/IPTV + portal + Browser + PVR HD box. For DVB-C. There was a DVB-T version too. It's ISPs only. Not available retail. USB Qwerty keyboad and mouse of PC worked on Browser. It also would play external USB media of most types. By that stage I had abandoned DVB-T as too tricky for my Band and firmly adoped DVB-c.

The offline encoding using "best" VBR for SD 544 x 576 MPEG AVC H.264 proved that average 1.5Mbps VBR with 6Mbps peaks was comparable to off air Sky channels. Production "real time" encoding for an entire Mux would have worked out at about €10K a channel. Distribution via 3 x virtual transponders on satellite carrying the exact TS for the terrestrial DVB-c transmission sites.

Gypsy Media "Digiguide" to provide all EPG in XML (very cheaply) for encoding.
The project was abandoned as cost analysis showed that it could not compete either with "free" of Freesat + Irish DTT, nor compete with Sky or UPC.

So that's why I was adamant and still am, that a 3rd Pay TV service, either Terrestrial (as per BCI concept of Pay DTT muxes from single platform operator) or "Real Digital TV"'s Satellite payTV on 28E are doomed to failure.

Make no mistake. "Real Digital TV" is NOT a FTV system or alternate to Freesat. It's an attempt to compete with Sky. With less content, poorer quality and equally proprietary set-box.

snaps

Just waiting for sky to cash in on this, taking RTE2 SD off and making it RTE 2 HD only, so only available with an HD sub:D

watty

Actually..
I had a different thought.

In Italy some channels taken off Satellite, so Sky released a USB DTT tuner to plug into Sky box.

If HD is too long coming to Sky, or there is no space for it (Sky HAVE to simulcast HD and SD RTE if they do HD), they could issue a USB DTT stick for Sky HD boxes.

They can do that for maybe €10 once off cost a customer!

Sponge Bob

snaps wrote: »

Just waiting for sky to cash in on this, taking RTE2 SD off and making it RTE 2 HD only, so only available with an HD sub:D

Nahh , RTE will more likely give them RTE2 as it was upscaled and HD encoded and then downscaled AGAIN to SD before they uplink it to Astra2

I suspect RTE2 HD will never be broadcast on Astra2

snaps

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I suspect RTE2 HD will never be broadcast on Astra2

Lets hope not, i was very critical of the Irish DTT setup, but i have to admit, im very pleased the way its turned out. Glad as well i wasnt selling customers basic Mpeg 4 receivers, like the picnic. Really glad i held out.

Combo boxes will be very popular option now. Ive 3 around the house and now i have UK FTA and Irish DTT HD in those 3 rooms.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

Actually..
I had a different thought.

In Italy some channels taken off Satellite, so Sky released a USB DTT tuner to plug into Sky box.

If HD is too long coming to Sky, or there is no space for it (Sky HAVE to simulcast HD and SD RTE if they do HD), they could issue a USB DTT stick for Sky HD boxes.

They can do that for maybe €10 once off cost a customer!

You couldn't have a word with Humax and get them to do that for the Foxsat products?

Machinehead

Will be interesting to see if tonight's movie on RTÉ Two, Kingdom of Heaven will go out as HD or upscaled.

watty

upscaled.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

You couldn't have a word with Humax and get them to do that for the Foxsat products?

And the commercial motivation would be?
Sky did it because it was a PayTV war with another Company.

Sponge Bob

snaps wrote: »

Combo boxes will be very popular option now. Ive 3 around the house and now i have UK FTA and Irish DTT HD in those 3 rooms.

A combi HD ( 1 x T2 and 1 x S2 tuner at around €99 ( ex delivery) and with Diseq functionality but no recording capacity would clean up. Scart and HDMi output.

I reckon we could see one by this time next year.

Manc-Red

Bought a Walker Saorview box today in Powercity & does exactly what its says on the tin...

Anyway.. RTE Two in HD, obviously upscaling the signal atm but never the less is a very good picture & a very welcome addition to the my services installed in my home.

Native HD will be very exciting when it comes - But it must come.

The Cush

snaps wrote: »

Just waiting for sky to cash in on this, taking RTE2 SD off and making it RTE 2 HD only, so only available with an HD sub:D

This is RTÉ's position

Subject to the approval of the Minister, RTÉ proposes to launch these on a short technical and market testing basis on its new digital terrestrial television and satellite platform in Q2 2011 and to make them available on other platforms such as pay TV platforms including satellite, cable and IPTV thereafter in accordance with the “must carry” and “must offer” provisions of section 77 of the Broadcasting Act 2009.

If Sky decide to carry RTÉ 2 HD they must also carry the SD version for those without a HD receiver and no additional charge can be imposed for the HD service (Broadcasting Act sec.77).

Stinicker

Kingdom of Heaven looking good in High-Def, it is probably upscaled but looks like 720p to be me anyway!

Machinehead

Stinicker wrote: »

Kingdom of Heaven looking good in High-Def, it is probably upscaled but looks like 720p to be me anyway!

Not a patch on BBC's 1080i FTA HD though.

Stinicker

Machinehead wrote: »

Not a patch on BBC's 1080i FTA HD though.

OF course but still much better than normal crappovision, especially on the 50" screen.

Machinehead

Stinicker wrote: »

OF course but still much better than normal crappovision, especially on the 50" screen.

Just looking at "Con Air" on BBC HD on a Panny 42", waiting in anticipation for RTÉ Two "HD" to match up!

fat-tony

Folks, it's all upscaled SD material - broadcast at 1080i
There is no true HD material being broadcast on RTE2 - they don't (officially) have the required VTR equipment in the playout system to broadcast taped material in HD. They had a tender document out some months ago for the installation of a HD playout system for RTE2, to be installed in the first half of 2011.
The likely first true HD broadcast on RTE2 would be a live sporting event, rather than a taped HD programme or movie... but then again maybe they will lash up some temporary arrangement

Sponge Bob

I will be watching the Champions League this week for HD, hopefully.

Manc-Red

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I will be watching the Champions League this week for HD, hopefully.

It will be upscalled m8 unfortunately, but better than the norm all the same

HappyHarry

RTENL Test channel is now showing RTE Two in what looks like SD.
Description in info says "RTE Two Temporary Service"

May be useful to those that already have non HD STB at least for a another few hours/days/weeks