Prostitution

Denerick

At the moment, prostitution is ridiculously accessible. I would equate it to the legal highs industry - for all intents and purposes, recreational designer drugs were legal for all. Prostitution in Ireland now masquerades as an 'escort service'. They have penetrated every county in the land.

Prostitution is the oldest trade and will always be so. Wherever there are men looking for sex, some women will provide it at a price. The average middle to upper end prostitute in this country earns between 200 and 250 euro per hour. This compares nicely with the new national minimum wage, which is 7.65 per hour. Assuming that most prostitutes are unskilled and with a low educational attainment, the fact that women who have no other assets other than their looks can earn the equivilent of a lawyer is a strong incentive. It makes me wonder why the hell any good looking woman would bother sweeping floors for an absolute pittance.

That said, its impossible to overlook the moral implications. It is clearly denigration of women, and no father would ever want his daughter to grow up to be a prostitute. (Most fathers would be happy to see their daughter grow up to be a nurse, earning a fraction of what a middle end prostitute would earn) There is a reason for this as the very trade makes all people of conscience slightly nauesous and collectively guilty. Surely there is a better way.

On the other hand, most men (myself included) view porn which is prostitution by any other name. We're just not actively partaking in the sexual act. I'm not sure I really see such a vast moral distinction. If hardcore pornography is legal, why not prostitution?

In conclusion, I think legalisation of prostitution is the only equitable solution. Prostitution is widespread in this country, most people simply aren't aware of it. Prostitutes at the moment have limited options - they either seek protection in the form of a 'pimp', usually a violent person who takes the majority of the prostitutes wages. Or they can go alone, and risk rape, assault, murder - anything really as there are a lot of sick men out there. I'd rather allow them the benefit of our labour laws and employee protection. If we accept that prostitution is widespread and that it has always been a constant in human history, we should also seek the most humane and reasonable solution - legalise it, protect the workers, and prevent the abuses rampant in the black market.

Thoughts?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Monty Burnz

I often wonder if there is exploitation going on, exactly who is being exploited? The women who choose to have sex with men for money, or the men who are charged €200 per hour by women (or men) to meet a basic biological need.

Of course excluded from this are trafficked prostitutes - wrong in every circumstance, and an apalling crime.

Wolfe Tone

It seems that most of these women on the escort sites are foreign, and move cities every couple of weeks, and are replaced by new women based in the same apartment.

Morally I think that prostitution is repugnant, an every step should be taken to keep people out of this "trade" where people are exploited.

Monty Burnz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Morally I think that prostitution is repugnant, an every step should be taken to keep people out of this "trade" where people are exploited.

But in every trade, people are exploited. The question is whether they are exploited willingly. Unless you are telling me that burger flippers in McDs have nothing they would rather be doing than getting spattered by animal fat? The key difference for me is that a professional sex worker can earn 50 times more per hour.

Denerick

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Morally I think that prostitution is repugnant, an every step should be taken to keep people out of this "trade" where people are exploited.

We've tried prohibition for millenia now. It hasn't worked. Yet prostitutes have no labour rights. Surely we should just accept reality - some women will always choose prostitution, and some men will always use their services - and that the best course for all is employee protection?

Wolfe Tone

In fairness thats a dangerous road. Sure all laws are broken, why bother?

Emme

Like mining, prostitution is an extremely dangerous job and the girls probably aren't paid enough for what they do. Having said that I wonder how many of them actually CHOOSE prostitution. For those who do choose it, I would say that more do it to support family members than to get money to buy consumer goods for themselves.

Nobody should have to choose prostitution. OK, mining is tough too, but the body of a miner isn't being invaded by somebody elses during the course of his or her work.

Eliot Rosewater

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

In fairness thats a dangerous road. Sure all laws are broken, why bother?

Well, if the law is having a demonstrable negative impact upon the country then it needs to be reconsidered. Prostitutes have no legal rights, it seems. You mentioned exploitation, but the best way to ensure women are not abused and not treated unfairly is to introduce regulation and shine some light on the black market it is.

What do you mean by exploitation, by the way?

wolfpawnat

As I woman, the way I see it, legalize it. It is happening anyway. Get the girls mandatory tests like in the Netherlands!

Tax them, and keep everything above board!!!!

If a woman wants to sell herself and a man wants to pay, then off with them

Also I feel that if it was legalized we could do more to help the girls forced into it.

Wins all round

Wolfe Tone

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Well, if the law is having a demonstrable negative impact upon the country then it needs to be reconsidered. Prostitutes have no legal rights, it seems. You mentioned exploitation, but the best way to ensure women are not abused and not treated unfairly is to introduce regulation and shine some light on the black market it is.

What do you mean by exploitation, by the way?

I think the best way would to be to clamp down on it more.


I suggest looking at some of the escort sites. It is pretty apparent that these women are trafficked.

I would regard women being forced to offer up sex(I would not class sex as just a physical act) in exchange for money as exploitation in the first place.

Monty Burnz

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would regard women being forced to offer up sex(I would not class sex as just a physical act) in exchange for money as exploitation in the first place.

If I could earn €200 per hour to have sex with women, I would. Am I being exploited?

nompere

wolfpawnat wrote: »

As I woman, the way I see it, legalize it. It is happening anyway. Get the girls mandatory tests like in the Netherlands!

Tax them, and keep everything above board!!!!

If a woman wants to sell herself and a man wants to pay, then off with them

Also I feel that if it was legalized we could do more to help the girls forced into it.

Wins all round

Income from illegal trades is already taxable - this came up about 20 years ago in the UK courts, under the name of CIR v Aken. This is a small chunk from perfectly respectable journal:

"Perhaps the most recent case on illegal trading is CIR v Aken [1988] STC 69 (in the High Court) and [1990] STC 497 (in the Court of Appeal) where the taxpayer, otherwise known as 'Miss Whiplash', contended that as it was illegal for her to do many of the things that a legal business could — e.g. advertise, rent premises, trade from home, employ people, form a partnership or a company — her activities as a prostitute could not be treated as a trade. Both courts dismissed her appeal; 'the Crown does not accept that the illegality of the activities which constitute a trade will prevent it from being a trade within Schedule D'."

Here is a link to the entire article: http://www.taxation.co.uk/taxation/articles/2005/04/07/3099/its-fair-cop

Emme

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If I could earn €200 per hour to have sex with women, I would. Am I being exploited?

Depends on the woman and the situation.

1) a hot woman approaches you in a bar and says "I will give you €200 if you have sex with me for an hour". You think "Yay!:D I'd have had sex with her for nothing and she's offering me €200, happy days! That's not exploitation.

2) you're a broke student because you've spent all your money on beer and you can't afford rent, food or books. You're hungry and freezing cold. You also have a young son to support. You can't find work of any sort. A woman you don't find attractive at all offers you €200 to have sex with her. She has to force-feed you viagra to get you to perform. Even so you find the whole thing most unpleasant. However you do it because you really, really, really need the money. This is the only way you can get the money you need to pay for your living expenses and your young son. That's exploitation.

3) a man says to you that if you go to oz he'll get you a job as a bricklayer on a building site and better still he'll pay your fare over. You go over there and when you arrive it turns out you're not going to work as a brickie but your job really is to have sex with a series of women and men you don't like for Aus$200 an hour. However, you owe your boss Aus€20,000 for the flight and expenses and you have to work for nothing for an indefinite period of time to pay that off because he keeps charging you extortionate amounts for heat, light, food, use of room etc. That's exploitation.

Ickle Magoo

Denerick wrote: »

If hardcore pornography is legal, why not prostitution?

Prostitution in itself is a legal activity, it's the surrounding "anti-social" activities such as public solicitation and pimping that are illegal.

longhalloween

wolfpawnat wrote: »

As I woman, the way I see it, legalize it. It is happening anyway. Get the girls mandatory tests like in the Netherlands!

Tax them, and keep everything above board!!!!

If a woman wants to sell herself and a man wants to pay, then off with them

Also I feel that if it was legalized we could do more to help the girls forced into it.

Wins all round

Maybe you're right. The most important thing would be regulation.

Licences for brothels and prostitutes, similar to off licences and taxi drivers, mandatory, regular STD testing, bouncers to stop any potential trouble among the customers.

But, prostitution has worked in America, no reason it couldn't work here, as long as it has political and public backing unlike Stringfellows on Parnell St.

Might also do something to combat levels of sexual assault??

wolfpawnat

longhalloween wrote: »

Maybe you're right. The most important thing would be regulation.

Licences for brothels and prostitutes, similar to off licences and taxi drivers, mandatory, regular STD testing, bouncers to stop any potential trouble among the customers.

But, prostitution has worked in America, no reason it couldn't work here, as long as it has political and public backing unlike Stringfellows on Parnell St.

Might also do something to combat levels of sexual assault??

The girls in Amsterdam are very well looked after. One buzz of the button and the man is flung out on his ass. The girls are well looked after with health checks and most are there out of choice. But according to those I know that have been there, you can spot the trafficked girls a mile off and as a result no one goes near them!

If a girl wants to be there then that is her choice and off with her!

Eliot Rosewater

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would regard women being forced to offer up sex(I would not class sex as just a physical act) in exchange for money as exploitation in the first place.

But what about women who are not forced?

Emme wrote: »

2) you're a broke student because you've spent all your money on beer and you can't afford rent, food or books. ... That's exploitation.

Equally, you could say if he was forced to work in Tesco to feed his son that would also be exploitation. Yes?

Nevyn

It is not illegal for one adult to pay another for sexual acts in this country.
It is however illegal to advertise or solcited, to run a brothel or to live of immoral earnings or do not declare income for tax purposes.


Which means you can work as a prostitute, must declare as a self employed contractor but you can't advertise and you have to work on your own or else you are running a brothel. All of which consipire to leave people who choose this line of work to be very exposed.

Are the systems in Holland, parts of america and Austrilia any better?

At least there, there are standards and health checks.

Monty Burnz

Thaedydal wrote: »

Are the systems in Holland, parts of america and Austrilia any better?

At least there, there are standards and health checks.

And the ladies make a fortune.

Nevyn

Well it is a dangerous profession, even if you are working somewhere which has staff to monitor just the health risks alone, I don't think there is enough money to compensate if you end up with Hepatisis or herpes or warts or HIV positive.

Monty Burnz

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well it is a dangerous profession, even if you are working somewhere which has staff to monitor just the health risks alone, I don't think there is enough money to compensate if you end up with Hepatisis or herpes or warts or HIV positive.

How about miners? Or the military? There are a lot of dangerous jobs that pay far less.

Let's be clear about this: there are an awful lot of men who would do that work tomorrow for such good money. I'm not sure that they would claim to be being exploited.

nozzferrahhtoo

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

In fairness thats a dangerous road. Sure all laws are broken, why bother?

Yes laws are broken, but most of them involve a victim such as with murder, rape, theft etc.

With prostitution there is no victim as such, unless the women are forced or trafficked into the role which is a different tangential matter.

Things do not become bad simply because people can be trafficked into it. Slave labour of children for example was used in producing some well known clothes. Does this make clothes bad? Clearly not. Yet you seem very keen to mix up the trade itself with the less legal aspects of it in THIS case but probably not the others. Applying an argument in some cases but withholding it when it does not suit is one of the big red lights that should warn you you are working with a bias rather than a good argument.

I honestly do not have any idea why prostitution in and of itself should be considered immoral or made illegal (given it is legal now) any more than crimes like Blasphemy should be on our books. The are both ideas for laws that exist to protect peoples delicate natures at being offended rather than protecting anyone’s well being and in fact making them illegal causes a lot more harm than good.

Emme wrote: »

Even so you find the whole thing most unpleasant. However you do it because you really, really, really need the money. This is the only way you can get the money you need to pay for your living expenses and your young son. That's exploitation.

However you are no longer talking about prostitution now. There are many jobs that fit this description that people do simply because A) they need the money and they can not find anything else.

Whether it be working in hazerdous conditions, or unpleasant conditions like McDonalds, working where you find the work unpleasant but you do it anyway because you need the money is quite common these days.

I personally know someone who does work as a masseuse. She did it also because she needed the money. That is why most people do any work of any kind. She too had to work with semi naked people often of the most greasy and unattractive kinds.

If there is exploitation then it is not by prostitution, but by all work... or more accurately by the system that required single parent students to need money that badly in the first place so as to fit your little examples. To lay the accusation of exploitation at the feet of prostitution alone would be a very erroneous or even dishonest move.

Nevyn

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How about miners? Or the military? There are a lot of dangerous jobs that pay far less.

Let's be clear about this: there are an awful lot of men who would do that work tomorrow for such good money. I'm not sure that they would claim to be being exploited.

It's supply and demand, but there is a demand for male prostitutes but just not the same amount.

Fuinseog

prostitution is a great way for students to earn a few bob at the weekend. this way they will be well ale to afford the fees and live comfortably.

Monty Burnz

Thaedydal wrote: »

It's supply and demand, but there is a demand for male prostitutes but just not the same amount.

Indeed, that is why there aren't more of them - because almost any woman can have sex with somebody more or less at the drop of a hat. It doesn't work that way for most men.

Just to be clear: I'm making a definite distinction between people who are trafficked into prostitution or those who have absolutely no choice on one hand, and those prostitutes in Western Europe where there are a lot of other jobs or social welfare available. The latter category choose prostitution over the alternatives, and if anyone is being exploited in that case perhaps it is their customers?

Emme

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

But what about women who are not forced?

Equally, you could say if he was forced to work in Tesco to feed his son that would also be exploitation. Yes?

No. I'm talking about him being forced to earn money in a dangerous, invasive way because all other avenues (including working in Tesco) are closed to him.

Emme

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How about miners? Or the military? There are a lot of dangerous jobs that pay far less.

Let's be clear about this: there are an awful lot of men who would do that work tomorrow for such good money. I'm not sure that they would claim to be being exploited.

Would these men be willing to have sex with men (ie be sodomised by someone they didn't like) for money? Or would they just have sex with women? Heterosexual sex could be described as an act of invasion on the female body, even though it can be very enjoyable for women when it is consensual. However, if a woman is having sex against her will it can be very traumatic. In the same way sodomy can be traumatic for the recipient if it isn't part of a consensual sexual act.

Prostitutes deal with all kinds of people and risk death in the course of their work, they earn every cent they get but most of them don't get rich.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

nozzferrahhtoo

Emme wrote: »

Prostitutes deal with all kinds of people and risk death in the course of their work, they earn every cent they get but most of them don't get rich.

So do policemen, bus drivers, firemen, private detectives, social workers, charity workers.....

.... do I go on or is my point obvious? You are taking an attribute of many jobs and pretending it is only a concern for one of them.

One thing worth keeping an eye on when making points is that an argument that applies to just about everything is in essence applicable to nothing.

If you have any arguments specifically against prostitution I am agog to hear them, but selecting arguments that are applicable to many careers and putting them forward as if they are relevant here does not help at all.

Distorted

I don't know if legalising it would solve many of the problems. Most prostitutes are surely independent contractors, working for themselves, but using an agent (pimp) to drum up business. As independent contractors, they wouldn't get that much protection from employment laws anyway. Turn them all into employees and you take away much of their incentive for doing the job and add to their costs, e.g. licensing. It also makes it more public. I'm pretty sure I know a prostitute but she would never admit to being one. She keeps those two days a week when she travels to another city seperate from the rest of her life. I'm pretty sure she also doesn't pay tax on her earnings, if she did, she would either have to charge more or earn less. And since she is 50, I wouldn't be sure if she could charge more at this stage in her career.

Its also the old floodgates arguement. Legalise generally morally repugnant matters and society fails, etc..

Theres also the issue of male prostitutes. It would be homophobic to legalise female prostitutes but not male, and you can treble the secrecy issues involved there. But is Ireland ready for this?

nozzferrahhtoo

Distorted wrote: »

I don't know if legalising it would solve many of the problems.

No making something legal that is already legal rarely has any effect that I know of :-)

Distorted wrote: »

It also makes it more public.

You say that like it is a bad thing. Many of the issues that make it a dangerous and unsavory profession are caused by us pushing it underground and keeping it taboo. Turning it into a socially acceptable, tax paying, medical card holding, career would counter many of those issues.

Distorted wrote: »

Legalise generally morally repugnant matters and society fails

Irrelevant given you have not established that this IS morally repugnant. I see nothing morally wrong with the industry in and of itself.

Bottle_of_Smoke

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I think the best way would to be to clamp down on it more.


I suggest looking at some of the escort sites. It is pretty apparent that these women are trafficked.

Not at all. Foreign doesn't mean sex trafficked. Look at it this way - earning 100euro an hour is seen as a huge amount of money by Irish people. Just imagine what that means to someone coming from a country where the monthly wage is 50euro(Africa/India etc) or 300euro(hungary) And they may get more than 100euro an hour. If they're charging 250 prob 50% goes on pimp/expenses

Therefore there's going to be an endless supply of women from abroad willing to come here to take advantage of these very high salaries. From a pimp's POV why would you bother forcing people into the sex trade and risk kidnapping charges when there's thousands of girls willing to do it of their own accord.

We should take one side. Clamp down and criminalize everyone involved or start taxing it. The current system is the worst of both worlds

Joey the lips

I am just waiting for the usual suspects to come on in and head us off down the track.

Prostitution is in my opinion an acceptable industry... However if the govt are ever thinking of introducing it they should use the taxes to form a tactical unit to counteract the illegal trade

Because believe what you want and assume you know it all

There is published stats to show that where a legal trade operates in prostitution an illegal trade opperates...

If the govt cannot manage to do this then i am not interested in supporting it.


Has anyone ever wondered why there are not many mail prostitutes....Prob because its a job men would love to do...

vonniec

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So do policemen, bus drivers, firemen, private detectives, social workers, charity workers.....

.... do I go on or is my point obvious? You are taking an attribute of many jobs and pretending it is only a concern for one of them.

the difference is these career paths have unions, some form of protection, healthcare in cases of sickness/injury/threatening situations...
male/female escorts do not.
if a guard gets attacked in his line of duty, he gets paid sick leave.
if a fireman gets burned in his line of duty, he gets a hospital bed.
if a social worker gets attached to someone, who then dies, they get time to grieve, with pay.
if an escort gets beaten to a pulp, raped, stabbed, drugged, they have to self medicate/treat, for fear of the guards, get back on the streets or they get don't pay rent or don't eat.

yes, dealing with people you would rather not is the same attribute across the board, but the consequences are staggeringly different.

Monty Burnz

Emme wrote: »

Prostitutes deal with all kinds of people and risk death in the course of their work, they earn every cent they get but most of them don't get rich.

Well then they should get another job if they don't like it, same as the rest of us?

Monty Burnz

vonniec wrote: »

the difference is these career paths have unions, some form of protection, healthcare in cases of sickness/injury/threatening situations...
male/female escorts do not.
if a guard gets attacked in his line of duty, he gets paid sick leave.
if a fireman gets burned in his line of duty, he gets a hospital bed.
if a social worker gets attached to someone, who then dies, they get time to grieve, with pay.
if an escort gets beaten to a pulp, raped, stabbed, drugged, they have to self medicate/treat, for fear of the guards, get back on the streets or they get don't pay rent or don't eat.

yes, dealing with people you would rather not is the same attribute across the board, but the consequences are staggeringly different.

You make an excellent argument for arranging things the way they do in Aus/Germany etc.
I'd say it's a lot more dangerous being a guard than it is to work in the Bunny Ranch in Arizona or wherever it is.

Virgil°

vonniec wrote: »

the difference is these career paths have unions, some form of protection, healthcare in cases of sickness/injury/threatening situations...
male/female escorts do not.
if a guard gets attacked in his line of duty, he gets paid sick leave.
if a fireman gets burned in his line of duty, he gets a hospital bed.
if a social worker gets attached to someone, who then dies, they get time to grieve, with pay.
if an escort gets beaten to a pulp, raped, stabbed, drugged, they have to self medicate/treat, for fear of the guards, get back on the streets or they get don't pay rent or don't eat.

yes, dealing with people you would rather not is the same attribute across the board, but the consequences are staggeringly different.

All perfectly valid reasons why is should be brought above the ground,taxed and regulated closely no?

nozzferrahhtoo

vonniec wrote: »

the difference is these career paths have unions, some form of protection, healthcare in cases of sickness/injury/threatening situations...

the consequences are staggeringly different.

Exactly my point! That is why I said to Distorted above the following:

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Many of the issues that make it a dangerous and unsavory profession are caused by us pushing it underground and keeping it taboo. Turning it into a socially acceptable, tax paying, medical card holding, career would counter many of those issues.

You are saying exactly the same thing as me essentially. To normalise this career path (I say normalise as a replacement for legalise given it IS legal) would be the first step in targeting the issues you quite rightly point out.

The issue as I see it is a circular one:

1) The career is currently pushed underground
2) Because it is underground they do not have medical, unions etc
3) Because it does not have medical and unions etc people argue it is a bad career, immoral and should be illegal.
4) Therefore the career is pushed underground further
5) Because it is underground....

And so on ad nausea. In other words people are arguing it should be illegal on the basis of the things caused by arguing that it should be illegal. I trust you see the problem with that.

Elle Collins

Denerick wrote: »

I'd rather allow them the benefit of our labour laws and employee protection.

That is not a practical reality, given laws protecting against sexual harassment is a cornerstone of female employee protection, whilst sexual harassment is a cornerstone of a prostitutes working life.

Emme

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well then they should get another job if they don't like it, same as the rest of us?

Maybe they can't because they're already handing over the bulk of their earnings to pimps. THAT'S the reason most prostitutes don't get rich, they see very little of the €200 an hour they supposedly get. So when the prostitute says to the pimp "I want to leave and get a job in an office/cafe/whatever" the pimp doesn't say "go on and good luck to you" he makes her stay because she's his bread and butter.

Not to mention the girls who are trafficked into this country and barely speak English. How would they get a job here even if they could leave?

Monty Burnz

Elle Collins wrote: »

That is not a practical reality, given laws protecting against sexual harassment is a cornerstone of female employee protection, whilst sexual harassment is a cornerstone of a prostitutes working life.

It's not 'harrassment' if it is the service you offer, is it? Are firemen harrassed by burning buildings? I think you are letting ideology overcome pragmatism here. You're not going to stop prostitution even if you think it is flat out wrong (it's a healthy business in fundamentalist Islamic countries). You might as well figure out how to make it work better.

Monty Burnz

Emme wrote: »

Maybe they can't because they're already handing over the bulk of their earnings to pimps. THAT'S the reason most prostitutes don't get rich, they see very little of the €200 an hour they supposedly get.

Nonsense. I imagine most of the women working over the phone in Ireland pay nothing at all to pimps - what do they need a pimp for? I've never seen a pimp in Ireland in my whole life, but I've seen plenty of prostitutes. (just seen, honest)

Emme wrote: »

So when the prostitute says to the pimp "I want to leave and get a job in an office/cafe/whatever" the pimp doesn't say "go on and good luck to you" he makes her stay because she's his bread and butter.

We are still talking about hypothetical pimps. I don't think they exist here, and the certainly do not exist in countries where the industry is properly regulated.

Emme wrote: »

Not to mention the girls who are trafficked into this country and barely speak English. How would they get a job here even if they could leave?

I've already stated clearly above that trafficking is an appalling crime and I can't understand how men can have sex with women they suspect have been trafficked. Another good reason to regulate the industry though, thanks for pointing that one out.

nozzferrahhtoo

Emme wrote: »

Maybe they can't because they're already handing over the bulk of their earnings to pimps.

That is something of a big maybe. I would like to see studies and figures working out how many such women are working for pimps and the like. A lot of them seem to be on websites advertising themselves with a mobile number and other personal contact details. Without studies all your comments on how much of the money they actually see is entirely guess work.

Emme wrote: »

Not to mention the girls who are trafficked into this country and barely speak English. How would they get a job here even if they could leave?

Yes, not to mention it. Don't mention it because it is not relevant. We know trafficking is illegal, we are not disputing that. Slavery, traficking, all of this is illegal, immoral and we know this.

We are talking about girls who voluntarily choose to follow this career path. That is the topic here, not trafficking.

Trafficking and slavery is a different topic and one that we very much need to target harder and hit stronger.

I do however think fully normalising the career path for those who WANT to be in it will be a first strong step in targeting the underground illegal versions of it.

Essentially what you are attempting to do here is Indict X because of people associated with X being dishonest. This does not work. As I said earlier in the thread the clothes industry was uncovered in some areas as using child slave labour in it's clothes production. The correct result of this was not to target clothes as a bad thing, but to target the slaver holders and the companies who were paying them.

If clothes are not indicted by child slave labour then why is prostitution indicted by sex slave labour? Your heart is in the right place, you are just attacking the wrong thing.

Distorted

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No making something legal that is already legal rarely has any effect that I know of :-)

You say that like it is a bad thing. Many of the issues that make it a dangerous and unsavory profession are caused by us pushing it underground and keeping it taboo. Turning it into a socially acceptable, tax paying, medical card holding, career would counter many of those issues.

Irrelevant given you have not established that this IS morally repugnant. I see nothing morally wrong with the industry in and of itself.

My apologies. It is illegal where I live and prosecution is common, although there are some unofficial tolerance zones and tolerated "brothels" (saunas), which are licensed. And where I am, generally the law will not enforce or "dirty its hands" with immoral or illegal contracts, such as for prostitution. Therefore in tolerating prostitution, a legal system would presumably have to countenance other activities generally considered morally repugnant. Where would you draw the line? Would a contract to murder someone or to purchase drugs be enforcable or would this only extend to prostitution?

I doubt regulation of the "industry" would solve all these problems. Many prostitutes would refuse to be "authorised" or whatever word is chosen. For tax reasons, for privacy, for lethargy.

Its a very varied field. There are plenty of prostitutes without pimps. There are prostitutes who walk the streets, those who advertise in phone boxes and online, those who work from houses, with or without pimps, alone or together, those who work from home, those who work in hotels, those who are in the country illegally, etc.. The high end prostitute such as Belle De Jour is a rarity.

Once its regulated and out in the open, there is the possibility it could increase. Generally the focus has been on encouraging women out of prostitution, not on giving them incentives to remain in it. And certainly where I live, the majority of prostitutes, when interviewed, will admit they are only in prostitution due to drugs. So what would regulation do? Drugs test prostitutes? Or accept the drugs problems of prostitutes? And is a reputation for regulated prostitution really something Ireland wants to be associated with? Some critics might argue it could be seen as encouraging prostitution and it might harm the country's reputation as a tourist destination in the long term.

Why is The Netherlands always taken as an example of the perfect dealing with prostitution? Most of it is in Amsterdam, the red light zone is mainly for tourists and the Dutch themselves on the whole are discouraging such openness now. Its not as if you have a red light zones in central Zwolle or Enschede or something!

According to my gay male friends, there is quite a lot of male prostitution out there, but the market is targetted in a different way.

28064212

Elle Collins wrote: »

That is not a practical reality, given laws protecting against sexual harassment is a cornerstone of female employee protection, whilst sexual harassment is a cornerstone of a prostitutes working life.

From wikipedia: "Sexual harassment, is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors"

What part of two consenting adults trading sex for money fits into sexual harrassment?

nozzferrahhtoo

Distorted wrote: »

My apologies. It is illegal where I live and prosecution is common

Apology accepted. It is worth noting that this in an Irish Forum and unless you indicate otherwise while making your point people will assume you are in Ireland. Here in Ireland it is legal and I assumed it was Ireland you were referring to. Maybe you would like to mention where "here" is for you?

Distorted wrote: »

Where would you draw the line? Would a contract to murder someone or to purchase drugs be enforcable or would this only extend to prostitution?

It would be worth looking up the fallacy "No true Scotsman" to understand why I think this question is irrelevant. We are talking about prostitution here, not murder or drugs.

Distorted wrote: »

I doubt regulation of the "industry" would solve all these problems. Many prostitutes would refuse to be "authorised" or whatever word is chosen. For tax reasons, for privacy, for lethargy.

This paragraph is entirely guess work. Have you any back up to suggest what you think would happen actually would? The fact it is legal and regulated properly in other countries seems to speak to almost the exact 100% opposite of what you claim here. You are presuming to know what peoples choices will be before you even give it to them. That way dictatorship lies.

Distorted wrote: »

Once its regulated and out in the open, there is the possibility it could increase.

Again this is guess work and assumption and again comparisons to countries where it is regulated does not seem to support what you are saying. Further to that you are, yet again, saying it as if it is defacto a bad thing. You are in essence trying to argue that prostitution is bad, by assuming prostitution is bad. You can not assume your point to make your point. If it increases, so what?

Distorted wrote: »

Generally the focus has been on encouraging women out of prostitution, not on giving them incentives to remain in it.

Same problem. The reason we encourage them out of it is because it is so badly regulated and the working conditions so risky. It is yet another argument that tries to keep prostitution illegal by pointing out a bad thing about it that is likely CAUSED by it being illegal. Regulate it, make it safer, protect the workers and you will find that the motivations for enticing women out of the career path will go away too.

Distorted wrote: »

And certainly where I live, the majority of prostitutes, when interviewed, will admit they are only in prostitution due to drugs.

Links to the aforementioned interviews please? What is the name of the study, who performed it, who conducted the interviews?

Elle Collins

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's not 'harrassment' if it is the service you offer, is it?

That is to assume that prostitutes clients stay within the bounds of whatever service is offered. It is a view that displays an extreme level of ignorance as to the reality of prostitution.

28064212

Elle Collins wrote: »

That is to assume that prostitutes clients stay within the bounds of whatever service is offered. It is a view that displays an extreme level of ignorance as to the reality of prostitution.

...and shop employees assume their clients aren't going to shoot them and make off with their money. Still happens though.

Elle Collins

28064212 wrote: »

"Sexual harassment, is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature,

If you don't know that this is a daily reality for prostituted women then you don't know enough about prostitution to even have a conversation about it.

Monty Burnz

Elle Collins wrote: »

That is to assume that prostitutes clients stay within the bounds of whatever service is offered. It is a view that displays an extreme level of ignorance as to the reality of prostitution.

How do you know so much more than me? And do you have any idea at all of the security arrangements in properly organised red-light districts or brothels?

Please tell all. Otherwise you display not only an extreme level of ignorance as to the reality of prostitution, but also disingenuousness in this discussion too.