New 'United Left Alliance' formed

james.xix

A newly-formed alliance of existing parties has said it will lead a campaign of sustained resistance on the streets.
The 'United Left Alliance' is formed by the People Before Profit Alliance, Socialist Party, and Workers and Unemployed Action Group.
The group has said it will become an alternative to a Fine Gael/Labour government following the next General Election.
The ULA has said it expects to run around 20 candidates in the election.

Story: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1125/united_left_alliance.html

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I think it's a good idea an alternative is being put forward, whether people are for it or not. 20 candidates is a bit low though but realistic I guess.

Fuhrer

What do they mean by sustained resistance on the street?

james.xix

I'd imagine they'll be leading protest. Peaceful protests at that as well. Someone has to stand-up for the people at the lower scale on income. The government and the leading two opposition parties don't seem to care about the interests of these people.

meglome

james.xix wrote: »

I'd imagine they'll be leading protest. Peaceful protests at that as well. Someone has to stand-up for the people at the lower scale on income. The government and the leading two opposition parties don't seem to care about the interests of these people.

Honestly if their economic policy's got implemented the "people at the lower end of the scale" would be on the streets.

james.xix

Where are the wealthy taking the burden under the 4 year plan? As the Examiner was saying: Cuts for all...except for politicians and top public servants.

RandolphEsq

james.xix wrote: »

Where are the wealthy taking the burden under the 4 year plan? As the Examiner was saying: Cuts for all...except for politicians and top public servants.

They are hardly the 'wealthy'. The wealthy are the ones chairing companies, operating several successful business ventures, developers who managed to put assets beyond the control of NAMA. But then 'wealthy' is a relative term so those at the bottom of the public service are the 'poor'

nesf

How the hell are they an alternative to the FG/Labour Government if they are only running 20 candidates?

The Waltzing Consumer

Here is the website:

http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/

nesf

james.xix wrote: »

Where are the wealthy taking the burden under the 4 year plan? As the Examiner was saying: Cuts for all...except for politicians and top public servants.

They're being hit in their pensions. They'll no longer get 42% tax relief on pension payments and only get 20%. That's a big cut. They'll also get hit by the higher top income tax rate that has been promised. I'd also not be surprised if they were hit with more come budget day, they are after all the easiest group politically to hit.

GarlicBread

james.xix wrote: »

A newly-formed alliance of existing parties has said it will lead a campaign of sustained resistance on the streets.
The 'United Left Alliance' is formed by the People Before Profit Alliance, Socialist Party, and Workers and Unemployed Action Group.
The group has said it will become an alternative to a Fine Gael/Labour government following the next General Election.
The ULA has said it expects to run around 20 candidates in the election.

Gandalf: "Theoden king stands alone"

Eomer: "Not alone..........."

We all know what happened next.

Langerland

The whole sharing the burden, cuts for all is a joke and a lie...
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-divided-dail-unites-to-give-itself-a-pay-rise-2410792.html

james.xix

nesf wrote: »

How the hell are they an alternative to the FG/Labour Government if they are only running 20 candidates?

Every group has to start small I guess. I'd agree though, 20 seems small. They'll be banking on getting the majority of that elected. If they gain support they might want to look at running at least about 10 more.

Lockstep

Are you involved?

Any ideas on how many they reasonably expect to get in? Can't see them getting more than 5 in (Higgins, Daly etc. Even Richard Boyd-Barrett will be struggling as the seats have been reduced to a 4 seater)

mike65

I was listening to Joe Higgins on RTE this morning, as per usual he had plenty of bluster but didn't put forward any solutions apart from tax the rich. This crowd won't amount to anything except lots of hot air on indymedia.ie

Lockstep

Just looked over previous Socialist Party and PBP candidates results in the previous elections.

Only Higgins and Daly have a real chance, the rest would need some brilliant luck to get seats, given their previous performance.

The Waltzing Consumer

james.xix wrote: »

Every group has to start small I guess. I'd agree though, 20 seems small. They'll be banking on getting the majority of that elected. If they gain support they might want to look at running at least about 10 more.

What is their view on corporation tax? I don't see it mentioned in their alternative program. Are they included in the tax on superrich?

The Waltzing Consumer

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Just looked over previous Socialist Party and PBP candidates results in the previous elections.

Only Higgins and Daly have a real chance, the rest would need some brilliant luck to get seats, given their previous performance.

Good point. Dublin West is going from three to four seats. Unless FG or Lab field a very strong second candidate, I would say it is near definite that Higgins will take that fourth seat.

Lockstep

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

What is their view on corporation tax? I don't see it mentioned in their alternative program. Are they included in the tax on superrich?

The SP want to "significantly increase" the corporation tax, whereas PBP want to increase corporation tax across Europe as a whole.

The Waltzing Consumer

kickoutthejams wrote: »

The SP want to "significantly increase" the corporation tax, whereas PBP want to increase corporation tax across Europe as a whole.

That's some scary stuff. Joe Higgins comes from a constituency where a huge majority of employment and industry comes thanks to the corporation tax.

If they got their way, IBM, eBay, PayPal etc., and many companies in the corporate parks would disappear creating thousands and thousands of job losses which are all located in Dublin west. Why would someone vote for that? What is he thinking?

Seriously, I am from Dublin West, what the hell? Where is his logic in that plan?

mike65

People Before Profit plan

STRATEGIC INDUSTRY
Develop new strategic industries, which take Ireland’s
industrial development forward.

Given the failure of private capital to invest and the calamitous decline of manufacturing to only 13 percent of the workforce, these new industries will be predominantly state led.

These new strategic industries might include:
�� A generic pharmaceutical industry to contribute
to the global replacement of big Pharma.
�� Pioneering forms of technology to support a
shift to preventative medicine
�� Support for agricultural co-operatives which
have pioneered the development of organic
food.
�� The operation of closed factories by their
workforce to produce goods people really need.

And that is the extent of it!

Sharkey 10

What are peoples initial thoughts on this idea ?
What do you think are there chances of getting a candidate or two elected ?

I have always found joe higgins to be a man of integrity. I was brought up in his constituency and was always shocked as a young lad when my father would point out his house and i would always say but polititians live in big houses.

Im pretty sure a lot of you will not approve of this alliance but at the same time look for change and alternatives.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1125/united_left_alliance.html




MOD NOTE:MERGED THREAD

The Waltzing Consumer

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

What are peoples initial thoughts on this idea ?
What do you think are there chances of getting a candidate or two elected ?

I have always found joe higgins to be a man of integrity. I was brought up in his constituency and was always shocked as a young lad when my father would point out his house and i would always say but polititians live in big houses.

Im pretty sure a lot of you will not approve of this alliance but at the same time look for change and alternatives.

Ah you are from his area too. Would you really vote for someone who wants to significantly raise corporation tax? West Dublin has thousands and thousands of jobs from multinationals because of the corp. tax, they would be gone if Joe got his way. I hope you do not work in eBay, PayPal, IBM etc.

How is he a man of integrity if one of his aims is to destroy a vast amount of industry and employment in West Dublin by increasing corp. tax?

amacachi

nesf wrote: »

How the hell are they an alternative to the FG/Labour Government if they are only running 20 candidates?

Maths isn't the left's strongest point. :pac:

nesf

james.xix wrote: »

Every group has to start small I guess. I'd agree though, 20 seems small. They'll be banking on getting the majority of that elected. If they gain support they might want to look at running at least about 10 more.

Eh, yeah sure but painting yourself as an alternative to FG/Lab would require you to be running enough seats to at least be able to form a large minority partner in Government. As is, running 20, they'll do well to get 4 and that'll leave them as a fringe group with little to no influence since they are so far from the main parties in terms of policy.

james.xix

I've no involvement with this group at all. Interested though in finding out what this group are about and if they are an alternative or not.
My own preference is for FG and Labour but if another group were there will an alternative, I'd consider voting for them.
I would not agree with the raising of the corporation tax.

james.xix

nesf wrote: »

Eh, yeah sure but painting yourself as an alternative to FG/Lab would require you to be running enough seats to at least be able to form a large minority partner in Government. As is, running 20, they'll do well to get 4 and that'll leave them as a fringe group with little to no influence since they are so far from the main parties in terms of policy.

We'll have to see if they can strike a cord. The groups joining for the alliance are starting off at a low base so it's hard to know.
If they can get their message across that they will protect the tax-payer and not the bondholders, they could gain support.

Dannyboy83

I read a few lines and nearly got sick in my mouth.
Where are all these magical wealthy people they want to tax?

Every time parties speak of state sector reform, facts and figures can be given.
Every time these magicians speak of tax reform, we are expected to go on their word.

Show me the figures that prove there are loads of mystically wealthy people who we can tax so that we don't have to reform state sector expenditure.

Other wise, you may aswell vote for me and my plan to grow factories from magic beans.

johngalway

I had some level of respect and fondness for Joe Higgins, even though I completely disagree with just about 99% of everything he says. The this clap trap today. Good riddance to the lot of them. Just come out and rebrand as the Communist Party of Dublin and be done with it.

Sharkey 10

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Ah you are from his area too. Would you really vote for someone who wants to significantly raise corporation tax? West Dublin has thousands and thousands of jobs from multinationals because of the corp. tax, they would be gone if Joe got his way. I hope you do not work in eBay, PayPal, IBM etc.

How is he a man of integrity if one of his aims is to destroy a vast amount of industry and employment in West Dublin by increasing corp. tax?

Surely it is only fair to raise the corporation tax by a small amount as ive alway heard that everything should be hit . I would like to have someone else chime in here because i lack knowledge in this department .
Are these companies only here because of the low corp tax?
ie are there any geographical advantage, good workforce etc.

Is it a fact that if corp tax goes up foreign companies leave?

My thoughts is that we should be encouraging indigenous business so that the profit aren't going abroad.

MagicSean

"There can be no just or sustainable solution to the crisis based on the capitalist market. Instead we favour democratic and public control over resources so that social need is prioritised over profit."

So they're communists?

mike65

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Is it a fact that if corp tax goes up foreign companies leave?

Its more that they don't add significant fresh investment to existing plant and start to look elsewhere for any new plants.

dashboard_hula

I'm not voting for anyone who wants to raise corporate tax. I'm sorry, but there's trying to balance working for a large multinational while still having left leaning opinions and then there's amputating the hand that feeds you.

GarlicBread

Of course we should be careful with our corporation tax and be mindful of the jobs it either does or does not attract. One should also be mindful of the absolute ****LOAD OF INSTANT CASH that can be generated by increasing it, even if just by a little.

johngalway

k_mac wrote: »

So they're communists?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69211927&postcount=20

Sounds like Cuba, without the sexiness.

meglome

mike65 wrote: »

I was listening to Joe Higgins on RTE this morning, as per usual he had plenty of bluster but didn't put forward any solutions apart from tax the rich. This crowd won't amount to anything except lots of hot air on indymedia.ie

Exactly. This has been posted a few times around the place but it shows we are taxing most of the rich. It's the poorer people we're not taxing. Personally were I those richer people I'd be wondering why everyone isn't sharing the tax burden.

• Ireland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their average tax rate was 27.5%.
• Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average tax rate was about 0.5%.
• It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before, we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

yermanoffthetv

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Surely it is only fair to raise the corporation tax by a small amount as ive alway heard that everything should be hit . I would like to have someone else chime in here because i lack knowledge in this department .
Are these companies only here because of the low corp tax?
ie are there any geographical advantage, good workforce etc.

Is it a fact that if corp tax goes up foreign companies leave?

My thoughts is that we should be encouraging indigenous business so that the profit aren't going abroad.

Quite simply yes, the vast majority of international investment is here because of the low corporation tax. This offsets the diseconomies of scale we have due to distance from large markets, higher wages etc. Your right though, we should be encouraging indigenous business in a support function to these large MNC's as well as the amalgamation of irish firms into larger companies. Look at the Kerry group, founded as a small co-op and now is the worlds largest food ingredients supplier. We should be looking to do something similar in the medical device and software sector. The talent is there its just a case of joining the dots with investment/government support.

The Waltzing Consumer

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Surely it is only fair to raise the corporation tax by a small amount as ive alway heard that everything should be hit . I would like to have someone else chime in here because i lack knowledge in this department .
Are these companies only here because of the low corp tax?
ie are there any geographical advantage, good workforce etc.

Is it a fact that if corp tax goes up foreign companies leave?

My thoughts is that we should be encouraging indigenous business so that the profit aren't going abroad.

I am shocked and scared at this reply :eek:

Companies have been warning that they will leave by the bucketload if Corp tax is raised. Joe Higgins wants "significant increases" in the corp tax, not a little, but significant increases.

To answer your questions. These companies are definitely 100% here because of Corp Tax. It is not the only reason but one of the biggest and one of the dealbreakers.

If you touch it all, think of firstly the thousands of jobs in Dublin West that go, then all the spin-off business that will go, the housing market will take another tumble because of the amount of Irish and non-Irish living in Dublin West because of these companies. Think of the Blanch Centre and the significant drop in numbers from shoppers who would go there because their employment was near to it and then the amount of jobs that would go. Touching corp tax is like a bullet in the head for West Dublin, and our good friend Joe Higgins is threating that. So would you vote for him?

My God, it is actually scary that their might be people in Dublin West would are clueless to this and would vote Higgins!

deise go deo

k_mac wrote: »

"There can be no just or sustainable solution to the crisis based on the capitalist market. Instead we favour democratic and public control over resources so that social need is prioritised over profit."

So they're communists?

Marxist might be a better term, Communist draws imags of stalinist purges etc. Not something I would associate with Joe Higgins.

MagicSean

deise go deo wrote: »

Marxist might be a better term, Communist draws imags of stalinist purges etc. Not something I would associate with Joe Higgins.

If the scenes outside the Dept of Finance are anything to go by I would not rule it out.

electrogrimey

Why can't this country have a decent party on the left, a party that knows what they're doing, and don't just make promises about starting organic farms. That's what this country needs.

Holybejaysus

I presume the motto will be: "fruitcakes of the world, unite!"

Ever time I see that Richard Boyd Barrett I thumb the safety catch of an imaginary revolver......

Denerick

These people really are living in la la land, willfully denying reality. That said I'd like to see an alternative voice in Irish politics, a group with serious ideological credentials, even if they are more akin to an uncritical religious group than a political philosophy. For example, the left party in Germany has really shaken up politics there in recent years, and at the very least provides real options for voters disenchanted with their political and economic system, however misled they may be.

Einhard

deise go deo wrote: »

Marxist might be a better term, Communist draws imags of stalinist purges etc. Not something I would associate with Joe Higgins.

Probably not something one would have associated with Uncle Joe before he came to power either!!

Wibbs

johngalway wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69211927&postcount=20

Sounds like Cuba, without the sexiness.

Worse. They read like hippies. Jesus, like others I have some respect for Higgins, but not as an economist. This workers of the world unite guff doesn't end well. Typical hard left "thinking". They're great at doling out money to worthy causes, haven't got jack of an idea how to create it in the first place.

I mean look at this list;

loony left wrote:

These new strategic industries might include:

Might indeed.

A generic pharmaceutical industry to contribute
to the global replacement of big Pharma.

Good tip folks: The very second one reads "big pharma" you're either dealing with a tinfoilhattist a hippie or a quack about to sell you snakeoil.

Pioneering forms of technology to support a
shift to preventative medicine

Running machines and spinning bikes for all(well those in the politburo and their families).

Support for agricultural co-operatives which
have pioneered the development of organic
food.

Cum by ya, collective farms ahoy. So lets starve or quadruple the amount of food we already import then.

The operation of closed factories by their
workforce to produce goods people really need.

Right so who decides the "need". Yea I can imagine. Motherland grey aran sweaters for all, shoddy bolts for everyone else(nuts to come later comrades).

What is scary and what others have noted is people will buy into this nonsense. People in sales often say the customer buys the salesman or woman, not the item itself. So because they like the candidate(which to be fair in the case of Joe Higgins not difficult at all) and will go along with this. Or people will buy this because they're scared or thick or ignorant of what's being peddled. No? How many kept voting for FF and watch the next election and see how high FF poll. They wont win but dont be shocked with how many get back in.

Ray Burkes Pension

Whats the point of running for election and at the same time ruling yourself out of government

"Those elected as part of the alliance will not do any deals or support any coalition with any of the right wing parties particularly Fianna Fail and Fine Gael."

So vote away, but they cant do anything in opposition.

nesf

james.xix wrote: »

If they can get their message across that they will protect the tax-payer and not the bondholders, they could gain support.

Honestly, if the people are actually ever dumb enough to vote for them en masse, I'll emigrate. Their proposals make Sinn Fein's look like sensible economic policy. Almost.

nesf

Ray Burkes Pension wrote: »

So vote away, but they cant do anything in opposition.

They can be angry and represent the downtrodden ordinary worker! While never actually having to do implement anything so not having to deal with the realities of running a country like balancing budgets and other such troublesome concepts.

GarlicBread

Ray Burkes Pension wrote: »

Whats the point of running for election and at the same time ruling yourself out of government

"Those elected as part of the alliance will not do any deals or support any coalition with any of the right wing parties particularly Fianna Fail and Fine Gael."

So vote away, but they cant do anything in opposition.

Who says FG or FF are gonna be in government next time? FF are almost gone alltogather and if Labour got its head out of its ass it could easily lead a left wing government with SF + ULA.

Since FG couldnt go with FF, they would have to beg Labour, who would have a choice of two coalitions. Gilmore would have FG by the balls, lol.

The future is unforseen.

nesf

GarlicBread wrote: »

FF are almost gone alltogather and if Labour got its head out of its ass it could easily lead a left wing government with SF + ULA.

Yes, and forever lose the votes of everyone who has a problem with SF or ULA.

Gunmonkey

Yeah, read their manifesto from 2008 a while back. Taxing people earning 22,000 to 64,000 43% tax and 70% for over 64,000, so essentially making a promotion and pay raise a BAD thing, doesnt sound like the smartest economic policies.

And god help them trying to make anything "we really need" on this island with f*** all natural resources that cost more to import than buying the finished product from China.

namloc1980

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Yeah, read their manifesto from 2008 a while back. Taxing people earning 22,000 to 64,000 43% tax and 70% for over 64,000, so essentially making a promotion and pay raise a BAD thing, doesnt sound like the smartest economic policies.

And god help them trying to make anything "we really need" on this island with f*** all natural resources that cost more to import than buying the finished product from China.

Hard left economics has never worked and it never will. The numbers never add up. Every hard left centrally planned economy in history has imploded such as USSR, Eastern Bloc, North Korea etc. The Chinese realised that which is why they have embraced their own brand of capitalism.

I especially liked this from this crowd's website, I got a good laugh out of it.:

Reduce the working week without loss of pay and create tens of thousands of jobs by sharing out the work.