Access to Engineer Manuals

gigity gigity

Hello everyone, I have just came across this thread and while I think its great that people are here to offer assistance on home security issues I also cannot believe that professional engineers are prepared to simply hand out installation and programming manuals to just about anyone who asks.

Now before I get jumped on for this let me assure you that im not one of those guys who wants paid at every opportunity I will offer assistance to anybody who requires it provided that I know that they are genuine.

My concerns are that security systems can easily be abused if you have access to the right knowledge and handing info like this out to strangers is asking for trouble. A professional engineer should not have to come on to boards to gain info on alarm programming, he or she could probably gain that ifo from their co-workers or suppliers.

I will be around so if anyone has any questions regarding home security issues feel free to ask.

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

My concerns are that security systems can easily be abused if you have access to the right knowledge and handing info like this out to strangers is asking for trouble. A professional engineer should not have to come on to boards to gain info on alarm programming, he or she could probably gain that ifo from their co-workers or suppliers.

Which is why we have this in the charter:

Not Allowed
The crime rate is high enough. We won't be helping the burglars,
There is to be no discussion on defeating alarms or any signaling equipment.
This includes linking to any sites selling equipment doing the same.

Engineer manuals are freely available. Anyone can go into a wholesaler and buy a panel, the manual comes with the panel.
If a system is installed correctly there is nothing in the manual that will tell you how to defeat the system.
Basically what we are offering here is advice to someone who wants to tackle the small jobs themselves. You will also see throughout the threads people being advised to get a professional in to look at a system.

gigity gigity

Correct there isnt anything in the manual about defeating alarm systems however there is plenty of information on changing important settings and in some cases defaulting codes.

My point is that is is unwise to hand out installation and programing manuals when we are unaware of the way in which they will be used.

KoolKid

As I said these manuals are available from any wholesalers when you buy a panel. They are also only passed on after requesting them .
We do not allow links to them on public forums.
I am sorry but I don't see any problem with this. If you can elaborate on your concerns I am happy to take it on board.
With regard to defaulting codes, the system should be engineer locked at installation.

altor

If you have got an issue you should start a new tread and we will be more than happy to debate this with you. This tread is for requesting manuals.

KoolKid

It is related, so I'll leave it for now.
If it gets drawn out I'll split it later.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

It is related, so I'll leave it for now.
If it gets drawn out I'll split it later.

Ok so

altor

gigity gigity wrote: »

Hello everyone, I have just came across this thread and while I think its great that people are here to offer assistance on home security issues I also cannot believe that professional engineers are prepared to simply hand out installation and programming manuals to just about anyone who asks.

What issues have you got ? You can get alarm manuals on the net plus off suppliers. some installers will even leave the engineer manual with the owner at there request.

gigity gigity wrote: »

Now before I get jumped on for this let me assure you that im not one of those guys who wants paid at every opportunity I will offer assistance to anybody who requires it provided that I know that they are genuine.

But thats what it sounds like. If someone has a problem with there alarm and ask a question here we will give them any assistance we can. We dont charge for it as they are doing the work. Look at all the people who have come on here with problems and got it sorted them selfs. I dont see the need for them to get any vetting from my point of view.

gigity gigity wrote: »

My concerns are that security systems can easily be abused if you have access to the right knowledge and handing info like this out to strangers is asking for trouble. A professional engineer should not have to come on to boards to gain info on alarm programming, he or she could probably gain that ifo from their co-workers or suppliers.

Even if he is a professional, whats your point ?

If you look through any engineer manual they show how to default the alarm. If the alarm is engineer locked then thats a different matter, you will be told to get in a professional. You wont get that info here.

gigity gigity wrote: »

I will be around so if anyone has any questions regarding home security issues feel free to ask.

Are you going to start vetting people before you answer any questions ?

gigity gigity

Not all panels come with installation and programming guides.....
I think thats it great that you dont post up links to these sources but I also think that we shouldnt post out programming guides to people who potentially could have the wrong reasons for wanting them.

Had to laugh the other day an apprentice in work was able to come by a cd full of relevant engineering codes and manuals for systems. (Before anyone asks I wont be sending out any copies)

Also another incident recently, some clown employed a random sparky to do a call out to a monitored alarm system, what was the end result? Two police patrol cars and a downgrade of police response.

altor

People can request manuals to help fix there alarm. If they wanted to get there hands on any manual there are loads of places on the net selling them plus the manufacturers of some panels have some on there own site. I cant see the point your trying to make concerning the manuals..

gigity gigity

To Altor. Our trade as you well know requires us to act discreetly and to protect our customers interests, as I have already discussed already providing engineering manuals to someone who can abuse them causes problems.

If the system is relatively new then the installation company should provide the user with the correct manuals if requested, but only if the system isnt monitored.

The company I work for will not release codes over the phone, If our system is taken over we will call to site and return the code to default foc if requested.

I dont know about your local wholesalers but ours deals with trade only.

No I wont be vetting people to answer their questions because I wont be giving out any information that could potentially cause harm.

I will however happily answer people who require advice and guidance on their security system.
.

KoolKid

What panels are you referring to that don't come with a manual?
Can you give me one example of how an engineer manual can be used to defeat an alarm system? If the system is correctly installed to EN50131 even an engineer can't access the panel without user access first.
No one here is handing out company engineer codes, however , I have found most lads happy to share each others engineer codes.
There is no damage that can be done with an engineer code that cant be reversed. There is nothing illegal about a person servicing/repairing their own alarm system therefore they are entitled to the manual.

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

I dont know about your local wholesalers but ours deals with trade only.

I'd say they are the only one, or one of very few. I have yet to come across one that will refuse business. Are you suggesting that the equipment itself should be restricted?

altor

gigity gigity wrote: »

To Altor. Our trade as you well know requires us to act discreetly and to protect our customers interests, as I have already discussed already providing engineering manuals to someone who can abuse them causes problems.

I am sorry but manuals are freely available on the net. I have manuals for a lot of panels that I have never even used. All got on the net. I am not here giving peoples codes out.

gigity gigity wrote: »

If the system is relatively new then the installation company should provide the user with the correct manuals if requested, but only if the system isnt monitored.

So your saying if the alarm is not monitored it is ok to give out the manual I cant see any difference here...

gigity gigity wrote: »

The company I work for will not release codes over the phone, If our system is taken over we will call to site and return the code to default foc if requested.

Most alarm installer who take over alarm system have ways and means of getting into alarm panels without the code. This way is not in the manual either.

gigity gigity wrote: »

I dont know about your local wholesalers but ours deals with trade only.

Whats there problem, It is not against the law to install, service and maintain your own alarm system in Ireland.

gigity gigity wrote: »

No I wont be vetting people to answer their questions because I wont be giving out any information that could potentially cause harm.

I will however happily answer people who require advice and guidance on their security system.


Your contradicting yourself as how do you know who your giving advice too.
You could be potentially be helping close off a zone if they could not it working after any advice you might give them. How do you know its there alarm in the first place ?

gigity gigity

Ok examples.

Galaxy do not provide installation and programming guides, at best you will get a quick start.

No I wont give an example of how to defeat an alarm panel, one reason for this is beacuse your charter says not to,

However I will say this,
There are alot of systems that if the wrong person has an engineer code they can disable comms if they know which menus to contact.

Your right there is nothing illegal about working on your alarm, but it is wrong to hand out installation manuals to someone with the wrong intentions

gigity gigity

Thats not a bad idea, any alarm that requires to meet the relevant standards should be restricted in sale to people who can prove they meet the criteria.

Anything for DIY installation can be bought in B&Q.hmmmmm?

KoolKid

Ok. I think Altor was right. I have moved this to a seperate thread.
I asked for an example of what was in an engineer manual that would help defeat an alarm. If you feel there is something that sensitive then PM it to me.
The last Galaxy panel I got came with Engineer manual on a disc.
Either way its very easily accessible.
Anyway for a novice to find his way around the programming of a Galaxy would be some achievement.
I have seen some good engineers struggle with that panel.
There are lots of ways to disable comms with or without an engineer manual.
With regard to defeating an alarm via the engineer menu, you would need engineer code for that. the engineer manual doesn't supply engineer codes.
I note you havn't answered my question as to whether you would like the sale of equipment restricted also?

altor

gigity gigity wrote: »

Thats not a bad idea, any alarm that requires to meet the relevant standards should be restricted in sale to people who can prove they meet the criteria.

Anything for DIY installation can be bought in B&Q.hmmmmm?

I dont think that would be a good idea. If its not against the law for someone to install there own alarm why should they be restricted

I suppose you would be having them installing YALE alarms then.

gigity gigity

Altor, you are getting confused.
If the paying customer requires their installation manual there should be no issue with handing it over provided that the system isnt monitored. There is a difference between a paying customer and some bloke you just met on the internet.

No im not contradicting myself, I will happily answer people who require advice and guidance on their alarm. As I already stated I will not be giving out information that could potentially cause harm. ie I wont give out codes or manuals for systems. I will however advise on whatever queries people may have.

re your comments on the sale of equipment
They should be restricted because according to EN installers should be familiar with how the system works and the maintenance of sytems should be carried out by professionals. If a customer insurance company wants them to have an alarm they will need one which meets these criteria.

altor

gigity gigity wrote: »

Altor, you are getting confused.
If the paying customer requires their installation manual there should be no issue with handing it over provided that the system isnt monitored. There is a difference between a paying customer and some bloke you just met on the internet.

Thats your opinion, not mine.

Explain why you would give the engineer manual to someone you have just installed the alarm for and why you would not give it to them if the alarm is monitored ?

KoolKid

Ok The view here is this.
There is nothing in an engineer manual that shows you how to defeat or disable an alarm. These manuals are, & always have been easily accessible.
The rules about posting links to them remains.
@gigity gigity whatever level of input you want to give here is up to yourself & will be appreciated, However I don't want to see the same argument popping up in different threads because you don't agree with the information that's being shared. If you feel a post is unsuitable use the report button.

gigity gigity

Explain why you would give the engineer manual to someone you have just installed the alarm for and why you would not give it to them if the alarm is monitored ?[/QUOTE]

I would not hand over the installation and programming manual to someone whos system is monitored because there is a risk that they will attempt to service the system themselves. By doing so they could
A) Void their insurance
B)Cause serious harm as underneath the control panel lid is live electricity
c)Cause system faults and possibly call out police accidentally

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

I would not hand over the installation and programming manual to someone whos system is monitored because there is a risk that they will attempt to service the system themselves. By doing so they could
A) Void their insurance
B)Cause serious harm as underneath the control panel lid is live electricity
c)Cause system faults and possibly call out police accidentally

Couldn't they do a & b whether the system is monitored or not.
They could call out the police accidently by pressing a panic button or activating an alarm with 2 or more zones.

I always advise people of what voids their insurance.
People on here have been advised on what voids insurance also. Theres a long list of things that do this & most have nothing to do with engineer manuals.

gigity gigity

Yes you are correct regards B.
With regards A they will require a maintenance contract for insurance purposes so they will not have been servicing the alarm themselves and therfore will not have had access to the installation and programming guides.
In relation to C. yes they could call out the police by pressing a panic button or by creating a confirmed alarm by accident but they could also do it while attempting to maintain/repair their alarm.

gigity gigity

Koolkid your moderator post is just not true. Of course you can disable an alarm from the engineers menu its where important functions such as bell time, zone functions and comms details are programmed.

Anyway I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.
My offer still stands if anyone wants to ask any questions feel free.

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

Yes you are correct regards B.
With regards A they will require a maintenance contract for insurance purposes so they will not have been servicing the alarm themselves and therfore will not have had access to the installation and programming guides.

False they do not require a maintenance contract for an insurance purposes.
Depending on what discounts you are receiving from your insurance company, there are endless ways to void your insurance cover.Likewise there are lots of ways to call the guards by accident.
Most of this has little or nothing to do with whether you have an engineer manual.
There are endless guides to modding all sorts of equipment all across boards & the internet in general. If I buy a PC & overclock it I know that voids the warranty , should I therefore not be allowed access to the mother board specs. or manuals? Should people not be allowed repair their own PC to protect the business of others.? The list could go on & on.

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

Koolkid your moderator post is just not true. Of course you can disable an alarm from the engineers menu its where important functions such as bell time, zone functions and comms details are programmed.

But having an engineer manual does not give you access to the engineer menu. The engineer code does that. Furthermore if the system is correctly installed to EN50131 you will also require the user code. And if you have the user code you can disable the system anyway..
With that in mind my post is correct. There is nothing in the engineer manual that enables you to disable an alarm.

gigity gigity

You are attempting to undermine what I am saying by making il-thought out remarks. Most if not all insurance companies will require you to have your alarm maintained by professionals and provide a certificate upon request IF you are declaring that you have one for discount.

KoolKid

No insurance company that I have come across. (And I have switched my home insurance every year for the past 5 years) requires you have a maintenance contract.
To clarify:
They may ask if you have a system installed to EN50131.
All systems professionally installed are (or should be) up to that standard.
To maintain that standard the system must be serviced annually.
You can have an annual service without having a maintenance contract.

gigity gigity

What about systems pre EN 50131?
Have you been around and upgraded all your panels? I very much doubt it.
Would it not be possible that an intruder has picked up an engineer code of one of the guys whom you say "share" engineers codes?
For example called up in the middle of the night for an engineer reset and the tired engineer on the other end of the phone has said 2222?
Then went around to the target premises and simply entered engineers changed a few settings (using the knowledge they obtained from the internet)and returned again that night?
Possible?

gigity gigity

koolkid wrote: »

No insurance company that I have come across. (And I have switched my home insurance every year for the past 5 years) requires you have a maintenance contract.
To clarify:
They may ask if you have a system installed to EN50131.
All systems professionally installed are (or should be) up to that standard.
To maintain that standard the system must be serviced annually.
You can have an annual service without having a maintenance contract.

And how would you prove that you had a service? certificate perhaps?

KoolKid

Anything is possible.
Probable? no.
In all my years in this industry (and that's a lot)I have not come across one case of engineer knowledge or engineer codes being used to defeat a system.
You are now switching to systems prior to EN50131 ??
A few minutes ago you were concerned about people voiding their insurance by not having it maintained.This would not apply to insurance policy's with alarms to IS199.
Which concerns you more? people maintaining their own systems or whether they have an engineer manual.

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

And how would you prove that you had a service? certificate perhaps?

I am sure you are aware of what's required on all work sheets.
As well as that the customer has a receipt ,an invoice etc..
The security company can also verify from their records if required.

gigity gigity

The point is that it is possible. This is why we shouldnt give out information which could end up in the hands of someone with the wrong intentions.

The issue isnt about people maintaining their own alarms, its about information getting into the hands of people that your customers are trying to keep out.

We are supposed to be the professionals here, If I knew that my alarm installer would pass information around that could lead to my system being compromised I would go mad.

And what exactly are you talking about what is required on work sheets?

KoolKid

gigity gigity wrote: »

If I knew that my alarm installer would pass information around that could lead to my system being compromised I would go mad.

The most important thing here is that we are not giving out the information that is required to disable an alarm.
Even on systems pre EN50131 , with the exception of the like of CP32s ,there is nothing an engineer manual or an engineer code can do to help you disable an alarm. Now , we can all come up with the what if this & that & the other all happen. What if the burglar gets in during the day & your system is dis armed & he gets into engineer & disables that , that & the other.
The problem here isn't that he has the information. The problem is he's already in the house. Where is the house owner & why isn't the alarm set.
(Another thing that might void your insurance :rolleyes:)

gigity gigity wrote: »

And what exactly are you talking about what is required on work sheets?

I was answering your question about how to prove an alarm was serviced.

Spook80

sorry to jump in but found this thread an interesting read as i work for a monitoring alarm company myself.

I agree there is nothing in an engineers manual that can help a potential intruder.
All they can get from the manual is the default code which i am assuming has been changed.
If they have access to the panel and the engineer code (not in manual) then i reckon they would just rob the place there and then rather than change the bell time.
Any owner of an alarm system, monitored or not, has the right to the codes as it is their property, we can only advise that should they attempt and fail any servicing or repair job then they are responsible for consequences.

altor

gigity gigity wrote: »

I would not hand over the installation and programming manual to someone whos system is monitored because there is a risk that they will attempt to service the system themselves. By doing so they could

With an alarm monitored or not they could do A,B or C.

gigity gigity wrote: »

A) Void their insurance

If an alarm is installed to the EN50131 standard, (monitored or not) any changes made by a non registered person would make the standard void.

gigity gigity wrote: »

B)Cause serious harm as underneath the control panel lid is live electricity

So its ok if its not monitored

gigity gigity wrote: »

c)Cause system faults and possibly call out police accidentally

Could they not cause system faults if its not monitored

gigity gigity

Koolkid the salient facts here are that the risk exists albeit that in your history you havent came accross it. Any time you pose a question I have given you an answer which you then go on to twist. My concerns are stilll there and it is possible to do a system harm from the engineers manual. who says we are taliking about a house here, it could potentially be a commercial property.

Altor read the posts and stop repeating your mates comments.

KoolKid

You still have not given an example of information in an engineer manual showing how to disable an alarm. Also bear in mind most engineer menus could be easily navigated without a manual.
You still need the code, and in newer systems you also need the user code.

gigity gigity

Why do you keep on asking the same questions? I have already given you examples of how an alarm may be disabled, but for your convienience I will state it again that important featurs such as zone/input functions and output/comms can be changed from the engineers menu.

Not all systems are up to todays standards and so engineers menus can be accessed without a user code. I have already stated how someone may obtain an eng code.

KoolKid

And I have stated over and over again the engineer code is whats needed here not the engineer manual. Once you have engineer access you can make the changes you refer to without needing a manual.