Max Keiser: Irish govt slaves to IMF terror machine!

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It should also be up to the Government to regulate all this and make sure nothing could get out of hand but instead they did the opposite and by fanning the flames of this bubble by lying in bed with property developers, promoting tax breaks and encouraging people to buy etc etc.

My my I'm going to agree with you Rtdh. Pity that horse bolted some years ago.

meglome

hinault wrote: »

I was arguing that there were three categories of borrowers from the Irish banks.

1.Property developers
2.Property gamblers (as distinct from property developers)
3.Naive first time mortgage applicants.

Sure. I was pointing out this isn't a handful of people, this is a fairly large number of people here. It's easy to just blame the property developers until you see just how many residential mortgages were taken out.

ascanbe

meglome wrote: »

Okay... There are 789,000 private residential mortgages in this country to a value of 177.4 billion Euro. 40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro. And a large number of the 789,000 are in negative equity. So this isn't a few "property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants", this is a large number of the households in this country. Joe Public took these loans out of their own free will.



The banks gave that money to the Irish people i.e. us. If the banks fail, all the people with savings lose them and internationally we couldn't borrow the price of a postage stamp. The money we borrowed is owed to sensible country's like Germany, which might cause their economy to fail or get into trouble, from what we as a nation did. Why should other nations suffer from what we did?

You're just missing the point.
We already can't borrow the price of a postage stamp; as a direct result of no investor wanting to lend money to a country with such insane levels of sovereign debt.
That debt is largely as a result of us picking up the tab for Anglo's losses and will continue to grow if we continue to pick up the tab for other banks losses.
Germany didn't lend money to our state; German banks lent money to our banks.
The 'sensible' Germans obviously didn't regulate their banks well enough, given that their banks lent money so unwisely. It should be up to the Germans to deal with their banks losses whatever way they wish to.
The Irish state has no responsibility for this and should not be lumbered with the bill.
You seem to be confusing banks/private institutions transactions/debt with the business of soveriegn states.

squod

No one ever needed to bail Anglo. We definitely could not afford to do so in a recession.

Yitzhak Rabin

meglome wrote: »

Sure. I was pointing out this isn't a handful of people, this is a fairly large number of people here. It's easy to just blame the property developers until you see just how many residential mortgages were taken out.

As you said "40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro"

When you compare that to 10 individuals owing €17 billion in loans it does put into perspective just how much the developers are responsible.

Just 10 people owe two and a half times as much as 40,492 people. Yet you insist that Joe Public has as much blame in this.

meglome

yekahs wrote: »

As you said "40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro"

When you compare that to 10 individuals owing €17 billion in loans it does put into perspective just how much the developers are responsible.

Just 10 people owe two and a half times as much as 40,492 people. Yet you insist that Joe Public has as much blame in this.

You'd think I was saying the developers are not responsible too. I'm saying we're all responsible. We were living in a high spending low tax state. The majority were happy with this, even though it makes no sense. All paid for by a property bubble.

In 2000 there were residential mortgages to the value of 33 billion Euro, in 2010 it's 177.4 billion Euro. So Joe Public currently owe 177.4 billion Euro. Is anyone really going to tell me that we as a people didn't go mental. Large numbers of the average Irish person took out these loans of their own free will with presumably zero thought of the long term consequences.

Now of course the government should have stopped this, of course the regulator should have been awake, or course the banks shouldn't have been so stupid. That won't change the fact that we, the Irish people, voted consistently for this government and for their mad policy's.

I'm a great believer in personal responsibility. When I looked at apartments to buy I carefully checked the potential mortgage I would have. Based on a number of obvious factors I decided that it would crazy to take a mortgage of that size out, so I didn't buy. If people didn't snap up properties at almost any price, against all sense, the developers wouldn't have bought development land at almost any price. One fuelled the other.

maxxie

meglome wrote: »

Sure. I was pointing out this isn't a handful of people, this is a fairly large number of people here. It's easy to just blame the property developers until you see just how many residential mortgages were taken out.

People did not have to go far to look for loans with banks ringing up customers and offering! The government had us led to believe that the good times where to last for a very long time! Completely irresponsible behavior!

meglome

maxxie wrote: »

People did not have to go far to look for loans with banks ringing up customers and offering! The government had us led to believe that the good times where to last for a very long time! Completely irresponsible behavior!

Damn right it was irresponsible behaviour. But as a people we all were involved in this irresponsible behaviour. FF got elected three times in a row, so we as a people got what we wanted obviously. I appreciate that some people, including myself, didn't buy what they were selling but we were in the minority.

Run_to_da_hills

Interesting reading.

joebucks

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Interesting reading.

neither global nor research?

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Interesting reading.

No it's not really interesting reading. So let's say we leave the Euro, we still owe our debts in Euro, and our new currency will take a riding on the international markets pushing it's value down. This would help exports but everything we buy would be dearer and our debt will rise considerably, given we need more of the new currency to pay them. Then if we were to leave the EU most of our exports are produced by Multinationals who would presumably leave and go to another EU nation so we wouldn't have those exports. Since they make up 80% of our exports we'd be screwed.

So this guy can spin all he wants but he's talking out his arse.

sligopark

meglome wrote: »

I'm saying we're all responsible.

meglome wrote: »

we all were involved in this irresponsible behaviour.

Again WE were not - remember that most of the people are sheep like and were conned by the lies of ff and cannot continued to be blamed by ff, the ecb, the eu or you.

WE WERE NOT TO BLAME.

Yitzhak Rabin

meglome wrote: »

You'd think I was saying the developers are not responsible too. I'm saying we're all responsible. We were living in a high spending low tax state. The majority were happy with this, even though it makes no sense. All paid for by a property bubble.

In 2000 there were residential mortgages to the value of 33 billion Euro, in 2010 it's 177.4 billion Euro. So Joe Public currently owe 177.4 billion Euro. Is anyone really going to tell me that we as a people didn't go mental. Large numbers of the average Irish person took out these loans of their own free will with presumably zero thought of the long term consequences.

Now of course the government should have stopped this, of course the regulator should have been awake, or course the banks shouldn't have been so stupid. That won't change the fact that we, the Irish people, voted consistently for this government and for their mad policy's.

I'm a great believer in personal responsibility. When I looked at apartments to buy I carefully checked the potential mortgage I would have. Based on a number of obvious factors I decided that it would crazy to take a mortgage of that size out, so I didn't buy. If people didn't snap up properties at almost any price, against all sense, the developers wouldn't have bought development land at almost any price. One fuelled the other.

I just don't like the way you apply the collective 'we' are responsible. A majority of people did not buy property. The majority of those that did buy property, bought it as a place to live, not some sort of speculative investment. Also, the majority of people didn't vote for Fianna Fáil.

There is an interesting thread in politics on this. It shows quite clearly that 'we' didn't all go property mad.

Liam Byrne's sig sums up nicely how I view it:

"Just for the record : "everyone" didn't go mental, and "we" are not all responsible for this mess, and I'm no longer going to argue this point with those who try to claim otherwise in order to abdicate responsibility or justify making the real "everyone" take the pain"

sligopark

meglome wrote: »

So this guy can spin all he wants but he's talking out his arse.

much like another commentator that keeps cropping up blaming the irish public for this economic calamity

sligopark

Waffle

The Labour justice spokesman left the Government in no doubt about the reality out there -- a reality that our millionaire ministers seem oblivious to.

Mr Rabbitte spoke for everyone when he unleashed his controlled fury which articulated the public's dismay as the IMF takes over our finances on the Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs on Prime Time. Even before his blistering attack, Mr Rabbitte loudly plonked his glass of water on the studio desk while Mr Carey was speaking.

It was clear he could barely stand to listen to more Government waffle.

"After failing to supervise the regulation of the banks, this Government fails to act between the collapse of Northern Rock and 12 months later, the 28th of September," Mr Rabbitte calmly said.

As Mr Carey tried to defend his administration, the Dublin South West TD had had enough.


"You ought to be ashamed to show your face in this studio after what you have brought our country to penury tonight and the damage that you have done to people's livelihoods and start the young people emmigrating again," Mr Rabbitte said.

"You have destroyed this economy and you engaged in lies over the weekend.

"You denied it and then you went on to pretend that it's Ireland coming to the rescue of Europe," he added, as Mr Carey could only look on in silence.

"It's about time you went because you can do no more damage to this country. And coming on here with your 'auld palaver' about this and that.

"You didn't do anything to avoid the crisis that was coming down the tracks at us.

"You maintained property-based tax incentives until you inflated the bubble that has brought us to the state we're in.


"And now you come out here saying this is someone else's fault not our fault," he told Mr Carey.


Problem

"It's the fault of the Irish Government and you ought to be ashamed of where you brought us tonight."

Mr Carey tried to defend himself, saying "No, I'm not ashamed."

To which Mr Rabbitte quickly responded: "Well you ought to be.

"That's the problem with you -- you're not ashamed. You don't have any shame."


Well said Pat Rabbitte

gizmo

yekahs wrote: »

I just don't like the way you apply the collective 'we' are responsible. A majority of people did not buy property. The majority of those that did buy property, bought it as a place to live, not some sort of speculative investment. Also, the majority of people didn't vote for Fianna Fáil.

The electorate voted for Fianna Fáil, simple as. People can huff and puff about the "we" label all they want but there is no escaping that fact.

yekahs wrote: »

There is an interesting thread in politics on this. It shows quite clearly that 'we' didn't all go property mad.

Actually that thread does show a massive increase in the number of Buy To Let homes which goes some way to proving the "we went mad with property". "We" of course referring to a large number of Irish people, not all of them.

yekahs wrote: »

Liam Byrne's sig sums up nicely how I view it:

"Just for the record : "everyone" didn't go mental, and "we" are not all responsible for this mess, and I'm no longer going to argue this point with those who try to claim otherwise in order to abdicate responsibility or justify making the real "everyone" take the pain"

The problem being is that some people refuse to take any responsibility for their own position whatsoever. Just because the bank threw money at you doesn't mean you had to take it, the sheer number of people who didn't proves just that. Again, the simple fact is that some people were living far beyond their means. As an example, there was a letter to the editor in one of the papers the other day were a reader sarcastically thanked the government for placing them in negative equity. That alone speaks volumes for the lengths some people will go to blame someone but themselves.

sligopark

meglome wrote: »

So this guy can spin all he wants but he's talking out his arse.

much like another commentator that keeps cropping up blaming the irish public for this economic calamity

gizmo give it a break please - much like the ordinary taxpayer I am sick to the teeth of folk trying to blame me for destroying my country's economy


love to see you go door to door with meglome and ff giving this argument to folks

those not fearing a ban here on boards.ie would quickly use words sounding like truck and off, fire out a thump or two in your immediate direction and get the dogs out of the kitchen

tell US this when you are trying to blame me and others for destroying our children's future - how would you punish the more complicit in this treacherous crime like seanie, drum dum, fingers, mr potato head, brian the traitor, foul mouth mary, the financial regulators and the ecb? Or are they not to blame its only US?

gizmo

sligopark wrote: »

gizmo give it a break please - much like the ordinary taxpayer I am sick to the teeth of folk trying to blame me for destroying my country's economy

If you had actually read my post you'll find I was quite clear on the whole blame issue.

sligopark wrote: »

love to see you go door to door with meglome and ff giving this argument to folks

You seem to equate advocating a bit of personal responsibility with being pro-FF. Personally speaking that's not the case in the slightest, I'll happily see them wiped out in the elections for their mismanagement of the country.

sligopark wrote: »

those not fearing a ban here on boards.ie would quickly use words sounding like truck and off, fire out a thump or two in your immediate direction and get the dogs out of the kitchen

Acting like a common thug will definitely get us far.

sligopark wrote: »

tell US this when you are trying to blame me and others for destroying our children's future - how would you punish the more complicit in this treacherous crime like seanie, drum dum, fingers, mr potato head, brian the traitor, foul mouth mary, the financial regulators and the ecb? Or are they not to blame its only US?

Well you definitely didn't read my post so. To clarify for your benefit:
I'd like nothing more than to see Fitzpatrick, Drumm et al locked up for their actions, especially since it now appears it was a case of them breaking the law rather than simply being reckless.

Cowen was never fit to run the country and if today's reports are to be believed he won't be leading the party into the next election. Frankly I reckon he'll have trouble holding onto his seat.

Lenihan is a slightly different case, he was not part of the Haughey generation and so I believe he wasn't caught up in the cronyism and shady dealings the rest of his party became synonymous with. What I will agree with his the fact that he made some awful decisions since becoming Minister for Justice and should definitely be shown the door.

Harney? Useless, utterly useless.

The Regulator? I wasn't aware there even was regulation. Neary should have been ****ed out of that position long ago, sans pension, and someone competent put in his position. Of course they then would have needed to have ignored government calls for lack regulation...

So no, we're not to blame, certainly not to the extent others indicate. As I said above however, we still put them in power despite despite it being blindingly obvious it was a the wrong call during the last election and many people were living beyond their means despite warnings from certain sectors. They're the people who I would refer to as the "we" in this context.

K-9

Everybody who did buy property in the last 7/8 years should just hand back the keys and disown the loans. Everybody. Any cars etc. bought on finance as well.

Give up the luxuries the cheap finance facilitated.

Wont happen though.

Flaregon

K-9 wrote: »

Everybody who did buy property in the last 7/8 years should just hand back the keys and disown the loans. Everybody. Any cars etc. bought on finance as well.

Give up the luxuries the cheap finance facilitated.

Wont happen though.

Well not till theres a major change in goverment so stuff can be passed, insted of blouted golden hand shacks clouding everything.

BumbleB

A new political system is needed , burn down Leinster house and start from scratch ,all double jobbing politicians removed from service.

Every facet of public service is rotten corrupt and has become jobs for the boys, and the cycle will continue indefinitely until people stand up and not take it any more.

I mean we are supposed to be a democratic country and major changes are decided by way of referendum ,but where was the referendum for whether we wanted to bale out the banks ?.

I 've always hated politicians and bankers , especially banks for the way they
have this arrogance in the way they treat you.

BTW there is a reason why you Irish were in slavery for centuries .

Yitzhak Rabin

This forum is not a place to advocate violence. So please no more talk of burning down leinster house, or beating up politicians.

meglome

gizmo wrote: »

The problem being is that some people refuse to take any responsibility for their own position whatsoever. Just because the bank threw money at you doesn't mean you had to take it, the sheer number of people who didn't proves just that. Again, the simple fact is that some people were living far beyond their means. As an example, there was a letter to the editor in one of the papers the other day were a reader sarcastically thanked the government for placing them in negative equity. That alone speaks volumes for the lengths some people will go to blame someone but themselves.

gizmo wrote: »

If you had actually read my post you'll find I was quite clear on the whole blame issue.

You seem to equate advocating a bit of personal responsibility with being pro-FF. Personally speaking that's not the case in the slightest, I'll happily see them wiped out in the elections for their mismanagement of the country.

Well you definitely didn't read my post so. To clarify for your benefit:
I'd like nothing more than to see Fitzpatrick, Drumm et al locked up for their actions, especially since it now appears it was a case of them breaking the law rather than simply being reckless.

Cowen was never fit to run the country and if today's reports are to be believed he won't be leading the party into the next election. Frankly I reckon he'll have trouble holding onto his seat.

Lenihan is a slightly different case, he was not part of the Haughey generation and so I believe he wasn't caught up in the cronyism and shady dealings the rest of his party became synonymous with. What I will agree with his the fact that he made some awful decisions since becoming Minister for Justice and should definitely be shown the door.

Harney? Useless, utterly useless.

The Regulator? I wasn't aware there even was regulation. Neary should have been ****ed out of that position long ago, sans pension, and someone competent put in his position. Of course they then would have needed to have ignored government calls for lack regulation...

So no, we're not to blame, certainly not to the extent others indicate. As I said above however, we still put them in power despite despite it being blindingly obvious it was a the wrong call during the last election and many people were living beyond their means despite warnings from certain sectors. They're the people who I would refer to as the "we" in this context.

Well said. I'm in agreement with all of this.

We can't avoid the fact that in the last election all the major party's were putting forward more spending and less taxes. So it's worse than the people who voted for FF directly, the majority voted for these policy's. So if we don't take some personal responsibility and try to change things there's no reason we won't do this again. Personally I'd like to see an overhaul of the whole political system.