Max Keiser: Irish govt slaves to IMF terror machine!

Brown Bomber

Brown Bomber

The banksters are responsible for the real terrorism around the world too - through the CIA.

gizmo

How are the CIA involved?

On a side note, I again asked this question in another thread which has still yet to be answered. I'd be interested to see if anyone would give it a go...

digme

gizmo wrote: »

How are the CIA involved?

On a side note, I again asked this question in another thread which has still yet to be answered. I'd be interested to see if anyone would give it a go...

I'll answer it for ya.
Coca cola, McDonalds,Monsanto etc are all scum of the earth.Don't be asinine.

gizmo

digme wrote: »

I'll answer it for ya.
Coca cola, McDonalds,Monsanto etc are all scum of the earth.Don't be asinine.

And Ryanair?

As for the other companies, despite both Kaiser's or your own personal feelings regarding them, it still doesn't give him the right to engage in the same predatory techniques he's now decrying.

digme

Taking down a country is financial terrorism, boycotting a company doesn't even come close to what your saying,that's just hyperbole.

sligopark

execute seanie? why not the other governmental economical traitors?

gizmo

digme wrote: »

Taking down a country is financial terrorism, boycotting a company doesn't even come close to what your saying,that's just hyperbole.

Karmabanque had nothing to do with "boycotting" a company in the traditioanl sense of the word, it was a hedge fund whose purpose was to profit from the decline in equity-value of companies which are susceptible to boycott from environmental groups. It did this by short-selling the targetted companies while, at the same time directing said profits into environmental and other pressure groups whose aim was to to drive the price down further.

Therefore the manner in which he carried out these Robin Hood-esque attacks is remarkably similar to the ones which he decries. The problem I have with this, at least in the context of the original question, is that Ryanair, an Irish company, was one of those targeted. Now, you may not like O'Leary's attitude but surely you wouldn't condone these actions when they put thousands of Irish jobs at risk?

ascanbe

There's nothing 'conspiracy theory' about what Keiser is saying; it's pure, unmitigated truth.

Brown Bomber

gizmo wrote: »

How are the CIA involved?

They do the dirty work for the corporations. Drugs,weapons, terrorism, war and money all go hand-in-hand.

gizmo wrote: »

On a side note, I again asked this question in another thread which has still yet to be answered. I'd be interested to see if anyone would give it a go...

I'd love to oblige but it's the first I've heard of it tbh. Just looked it up on Wiki - financial activism rather than financial terrorism surely? I see where you're coming from though. Playing the bastards at their own game; quite clever.

Have to say though, I'll be eternally sceptical of anyone who is ex wall street and/or gets any MSM attention. Have to say though this Keiser chap seems to tackle the real issues. Ill be keeping an eye on him.

gizmo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They do the dirty work for the corporations. Drugs,weapons, terrorism, war and money all go hand-in-hand.

Limited to US based banks then?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'd love to oblige but it's the first I've heard of it tbh. Just looked it up on Wiki - financial activism rather than financial terrorism surely? I see where you're coming from though. Playing the bastards at their own game; quite clever.

Well it's the manner in which it's done that I'm most interested in really. The Robin Hood analogy is quite apt I think however the fact that they could do serious damage to a company which employs a considerable number of people in Ireland is what what caught my attention initially.

I also consider it quite like the college bans on Coca Cola on campuses across the country. Whether or not a product is boycotted is a personal decision and not one which should be made for us. Similarly with this, if I have a problem with a company I simply won't use them but I don't agree with any group taking matters into their own hands, especially when they're doing so under such dubious circumstances.

digme

gizmo wrote: »

Karmabanque had nothing to do with "boycotting" a company in the traditioanl sense of the word, it was a hedge fund whose purpose was to profit from the decline in equity-value of companies which are susceptible to boycott from environmental groups. It did this by short-selling the targetted companies while, at the same time directing said profits into environmental and other pressure groups whose aim was to to drive the price down further.

Therefore the manner in which he carried out these Robin Hood-esque attacks is remarkably similar to the ones which he decries. The problem I have with this, at least in the context of the original question, is that Ryanair, an Irish company, was one of those targeted. Now, you may not like O'Leary's attitude but surely you wouldn't condone these actions when they put thousands of Irish jobs at risk?

Ryanair in my opinion was wrong other than that i think there's no comparison.I don't blindly follow people,but i do admire this man and i think he is doing more good than bad.I'm sure you'd agree.He's one of the very few who speak the truth.

meglome

digme wrote: »

Taking down a country is financial terrorism, boycotting a company doesn't even come close to what your saying,that's just hyperbole.

I hate to be the one to state the obvious but no one forced us to borrow this money. There's an awful lot of screaming in here about us being forced but the really sad thing is we did this to ourselves. We bent ourselves over and shoved it right up there. We should be screaming at the Irish people generally for the corrupt fools there were happy to elect. And no, not all politicians are exactly the same, some are better than others.

Brown Bomber

meglome wrote: »

I hate to be the one to state the obvious but no one forced us to borrow this money. There's an awful lot of screaming in here about us being forced but the really sad thing is we did this to ourselves. We bent ourselves over and shoved it right up there. We should be screaming at the Irish people generally for the corrupt fools there were happy to elect. And no, not all politicians are exactly the same, some are better than others.

Who's better then?

They're all crooks as far as I can see. Why blame the people? They're the ones who were conned and they're the ones who fought for our soveriegnity for hundreds of years only to see it lost in a short few to EU/International criminals.

namloc1980

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Who's better then?

They're all crooks as far as I can see. Why blame the people? They're the ones who were conned and they're the ones who fought for our soveriegnity for hundreds of years only to see it lost in a short few to EU/International criminals.

There are so many factors that have brought Ireland to this situation: a Government that fanned the flames of a property bubble by giving huge tax breaks etc., poor control by the planning authorities allowing massive over-development of the country, banks that were trying to outdo each other in a high risk Russian roulette property game and then of course the hundreds of thousands of Irish people who bought into it all and paid massive amounts of €€€€€€€'s for shoeboxes all over the country.

But people must face up to reality...the country is bust. If we don't get outside help there will be no money to pay for welfare / wages / services come Feb/March next year. That is the reality.

digme

meglome wrote: »

I hate to be the one to state the obvious but no one forced us to borrow this money. There's an awful lot of screaming in here about us being forced but the really sad thing is we did this to ourselves. We bent ourselves over and shoved it right up there. We should be screaming at the Irish people generally for the corrupt fools there were happy to elect. And no, not all politicians are exactly the same, some are better than others.

You keep saying us and we.I had nothing to do with this,so keep your we and your us to yourself.I didn't leverage my loan book 40x, did you?

ascanbe

meglome wrote: »

I hate to be the one to state the obvious but no one forced us to borrow this money. There's an awful lot of screaming in here about us being forced but the really sad thing is we did this to ourselves. We bent ourselves over and shoved it right up there. We should be screaming at the Irish people generally for the corrupt fools there were happy to elect. And no, not all politicians are exactly the same, some are better than others.

'We' didn't borrow this money; our banks did.
They were lent this money by other banks; banks who lent them this money in order to make a profit.
Our banks then lent this money to some Irish people; in order to make a profit.
The banks that lent money to our banks did not practice due diligence; they were lending money to our banks who, not practicing due diligence, were then lending money to people in an unsustainable economy who would, ultimately, have no chance of paying it back.
So that should be their lookout; they gambled their money, screwed up and lost.
Yet, we are being burdened with their losses.
This is the antithesis of free-market capitalism; it's thievery.

meglome

digme wrote: »

You keep saying us and we.I had nothing to do with this,so keep your we and your us to yourself.I didn't leverage my loan book 40x, did you?

Nope I have basically no debts at all. For years I'd tried to tell people that we were in a property bubble and they shouldn't buy. Now I run a business so I'm not negative as a rule but the property situation didn't make any sense. People would actually agree with a lot of my points and still go out and buy a house. Those people have to take responsibility for that. There's lot's of talk about debt forgiveness for home-owners since the banks were bailed. The problem is that would cost at least another 10billion which the taxpayers would have to pay. And I'll be fúcked if I have to pay for that stupidly as well. We elected shítty politicians, worse we continually elected them and we're reaping what we as a nation sowed. We don't have a great set of politicians to choose from but some are worse than others.

meglome

ascanbe wrote: »

'We' didn't borrow this money; our banks did.
They were lent this money by other banks; banks who lent them this money in order to make a profit.
Our banks then lent this money to some Irish people; in order to make a profit.
The banks that lent money to our banks did not practice due diligence; they were lending money to our banks who, not practicing due diligence, were then lending money to people in an unsustainable economy who would, ultimately, have no chance of paying it back.
So that should be their lookout; they gambled their money, screwed up and lost.
Yet, we are being burdened with their losses.
This is the antithesis of free-market capitalism; it's thievery.

No I think you'll find we did borrow the money and the banks in turn borrowed money to facilitate that. Large numbers of people borrowed more than they should have, more money than was remotely sensible, the banks also facilitated that. The banks went after short term gain over any sense, but at the same time I would expect that when someone has access to a gun they won't play Russian roulette with it.

Run_to_da_hills

namloc1980 wrote: »

But people must face up to reality...the country is bust. If we don't get outside help there will be no money to pay for welfare / wages / services come Feb/March next year. That is the reality.

Who says when this shower takes over the country that welfare / wages / services of certain departments will last after Feb / March next year?.

There will be a lot of crows flying from the chimneys in all departments.

Those on the dole better keep their fingers crossed.

digme

meglome wrote: »

Nope I have basically no debts at all. For years I'd tried to tell people that we were in a property bubble and they shouldn't buy. Now I run a business so I'm not negative as a rule but the property situation didn't make any sense. People would actually agree with a lot of my points and still go out and buy a house. Those people have to take responsibility for that. There's lot's of talk about debt forgiveness for home-owners since the banks were bailed. The problem is that would cost at least another 10billion which the taxpayers would have to pay. And I'll be fúcked if I have to pay for that stupidly as well. We elected shítty politicians, worse we continually elected them and we're reaping what we as a nation sowed. We don't have a great set of politicians to choose from but some are worse than others.

Well someone had to buy the houses.The banks knew exactly what they were doing,they just got greedy.But it doesn't matter as when you go bust,you just buy back in and on the lunacy goes.But the people can't buy back in and that's why it's insanity to give your slave driver the weapons to kill you .
What I don't understand is why do people give their weekly hard earned cash to the banks each week?Max keiser needs to be on 6/1 news every fcking day till the dumb asleep masses get it through their thick skulls to stop giving the banks your bloody wages,

meglome

digme wrote: »

Well someone had to buy the houses.The banks knew exactly what they were doing,they just got greedy.But it doesn't matter as when you go bust,you just buy back in and on the lunacy goes.But the people can't buy back in and that's why it's insanity to give your slave driver the weapons to kill you .
What I don't understand is why do people give their weekly hard earned cash to the banks each week?Max keiser needs to be on 6/1 news every fcking day till the dumb asleep masses get it through their thick skulls to stop giving the banks your bloody wages,

No someone didn't 'have' to buy the houses people wanted to buy the houses against all sense, at almost any price. I rented and am perfectly happy. People used their free will to enter into a contract with the banks and borrow a pile of money. If people are slaves to the banks it because they asked or it, as stupid as that turned out to be. If they don't pay it back then the rest of us will have to pay it back.

ascanbe

meglome wrote: »

No I think you'll find we did borrow the money and the banks in turn borrowed money to facilitate that. Large numbers of people borrowed more than they should have, more money than was remotely sensible, the banks also facilitated that. The banks went after short term gain over any sense, but at the same time I would expect that when someone has access to a gun they won't play Russian roulette with it.

No, i think you'll find you're wrong.
Let's bring this back to basics.
Just say i, a private citizen, as these are private institutions, decide to lend you 10 euro, on the agreement you will pay me 15 euro back next week.
I did so in order to make a profit; if you, for whatever reason, squander this money and cannot pay me back either my initial investment or the interest we agreed, can i then bill the state for my losses?
No, of course not; i screwed up and lost my money.
As the banks did; it's not the states responsibility.
The government made it our responsibilty with the blanket guarantee; this should now be ended, no more money should be given to these gamblers and the IMF/EU 'loan', in reality another bail-out for foreign banks that will mire us even futher in debt, should be refused.

hinault

I've a lot of time for Max and Karmabanque.

But Max needs to redirect his anger in this instance to this country's policy makers who have brought about the situation whereby we have the IMF and ECB in here and have surrendered our economic sovereignty.

meglome

ascanbe wrote: »

No, i think you'll find you're wrong.
Let's bring this back to basics.
Just say i, a private citizen, as these are private institutions, decide to lend you 10 euro, on the agreement you will pay me 15 euro back next week.
I did so in order to make a profit; if you, for whatever reason, squander this money and cannot pay me back either my initial investment or the interest we agreed, can i then bill the state for my losses?
No, of course not; i screwed up and lost my money.
As the banks did; it's not the states responsibility.
The government made it our responsibilty with the blanket guarantee; this should now be ended, no more money should be these gamblers and the IMF/EU 'loan', in reality another bail-out for foreign banks that will mire us even futher in debt, should be refused.

I don't agree with the blanket guarantee either. However since our banks borrowed money internationally to give to us (the Irish people) they will expect it back. There's no way the international community, who loaned our banks, is going to allow us to walk away scot free from debt they we took on. And why should they, if you loaned someone a shít load of money would you expect it back?

hinault wrote: »

But Max needs to redirect his anger in this instance to this country's policy makers who have brought about the situation whereby we have the IMF and ECB in here and have surrendered our economic sovereignty.

Indeed. And we need to look at who elected them.

hinault

meglome wrote: »

I don't agree with the blanket guarantee either. However since ours banks borrowed money internationally to give to us (the Irish people) they will expect it back. There's no way the international community, who loaned our banks, is going to allow us to walk away scot free from debt they we took on. And why should they, if you loaned someone a shít load of money would you expect it back?

Correct.

Irish banks borrowed billions in the wholesale money markets.
They then lent this money to property developers, property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants.

Irish banks were totally irresponsible both in their borrowing and lending policies.

And Joe Public should not be expected to fund any rescue of the Irish Banks.

ascanbe

meglome wrote: »

I don't agree with the blanket guarantee either. However since ours banks borrowed money internationally to give to us (the Irish people) they will expect it back. There's no way the international community, who loaned our banks, is going to allow us to walk away scot free from debt they we took on. And why should they, if you loaned someone a shít load of money would you expect it back?

The international community didn't loan 'us' any money.
International banks, private institutions, loaned money to our banks, also private institutions.
Our banks then lent this money, entered into agreements, with some private citizens of this state; it's between them and its the banks problem if these people can't pay it back.
The Irish state should have no responsibility.
Banks have control of their own money; they use/gamble it in order to make a profit.
If they invest it unwisely, that's their responsibility; they should suffer the same consequences as any other private business that invests unwisely.

meglome

hinault wrote: »

Correct.

Irish banks borrowed billions in the wholesale money markets.
They then lent this money to property developers, property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants.

Irish banks were totally irresponsible both in their borrowing and lending policies.

And Joe Public should not be expected to fund any rescue of the Irish Banks.

Okay... There are 789,000 private residential mortgages in this country to a value of 177.4 billion Euro. 40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro. And a large number of the 789,000 are in negative equity. So this isn't a few "property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants", this is a large number of the households in this country. Joe Public took these loans out of their own free will.

ascanbe wrote: »

The international community didn't loan 'us' any money.
International banks, private institutions, loaned money to our banks, also private institutions.
Our banks then lent this money, entered into agreements, with some private citizens of this state; it's between them and its the banks problem if these people can't pay it back.
The Irish state should have no responsibility.
Banks have control of their own money; they use/gamble it in order to make a profit.
If they invest it unwisely, that's their responsibility; they should suffer the same consequences as any other private business that invests unwisely.

The banks gave that money to the Irish people i.e. us. If the banks fail, all the people with savings lose them and internationally we couldn't borrow the price of a postage stamp. The money we borrowed is owed to sensible country's like Germany, which might cause their economy to fail or get into trouble, from what we as a nation did. Why should other nations suffer from what we did?

Run_to_da_hills

hinault wrote: »

Correct.

Irish banks borrowed billions in the wholesale money markets.
They then lent this money to property developers, property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants.

Irish banks were totally irresponsible both in their borrowing and lending policies.

And Joe Public should not be expected to fund any rescue of the Irish Banks.

It should also be up to the Government to regulate all this and make sure nothing could get out of hand but instead they did the opposite and by fanning the flames of this bubble by lying in bed with property developers, promoting tax breaks and encouraging people to buy etc etc.

hinault

meglome wrote: »

Okay... There are 789,000 private residential mortgages in this country to a value of 177.4 billion Euro. 40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro. And a large number of the 789,000 are in negative equity. So this isn't a few "property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants", this is a large number of the households in this country. Joe Public took these loans out of their own free will.

I was arguing that there were three categories of borrowers from the Irish banks.

1.Property developers
2.Property gamblers (as distinct from property developers)
3.Naive first time mortgage applicants.

hinault

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It should also be up to the Government to regulate all this and make sure nothing could get out of hand but instead they did the opposite and by fanning the flames of this bubble by lying in bed with property developers, promoting tax breaks and encouraging people to buy etc etc.

+1.

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It should also be up to the Government to regulate all this and make sure nothing could get out of hand but instead they did the opposite and by fanning the flames of this bubble by lying in bed with property developers, promoting tax breaks and encouraging people to buy etc etc.

My my I'm going to agree with you Rtdh. Pity that horse bolted some years ago.

meglome

hinault wrote: »

I was arguing that there were three categories of borrowers from the Irish banks.

1.Property developers
2.Property gamblers (as distinct from property developers)
3.Naive first time mortgage applicants.

Sure. I was pointing out this isn't a handful of people, this is a fairly large number of people here. It's easy to just blame the property developers until you see just how many residential mortgages were taken out.

ascanbe

meglome wrote: »

Okay... There are 789,000 private residential mortgages in this country to a value of 177.4 billion Euro. 40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro. And a large number of the 789,000 are in negative equity. So this isn't a few "property gamblers, and frankly naive mortgage applicants", this is a large number of the households in this country. Joe Public took these loans out of their own free will.



The banks gave that money to the Irish people i.e. us. If the banks fail, all the people with savings lose them and internationally we couldn't borrow the price of a postage stamp. The money we borrowed is owed to sensible country's like Germany, which might cause their economy to fail or get into trouble, from what we as a nation did. Why should other nations suffer from what we did?

You're just missing the point.
We already can't borrow the price of a postage stamp; as a direct result of no investor wanting to lend money to a country with such insane levels of sovereign debt.
That debt is largely as a result of us picking up the tab for Anglo's losses and will continue to grow if we continue to pick up the tab for other banks losses.
Germany didn't lend money to our state; German banks lent money to our banks.
The 'sensible' Germans obviously didn't regulate their banks well enough, given that their banks lent money so unwisely. It should be up to the Germans to deal with their banks losses whatever way they wish to.
The Irish state has no responsibility for this and should not be lumbered with the bill.
You seem to be confusing banks/private institutions transactions/debt with the business of soveriegn states.

squod

No one ever needed to bail Anglo. We definitely could not afford to do so in a recession.

Yitzhak Rabin

meglome wrote: »

Sure. I was pointing out this isn't a handful of people, this is a fairly large number of people here. It's easy to just blame the property developers until you see just how many residential mortgages were taken out.

As you said "40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro"

When you compare that to 10 individuals owing €17 billion in loans it does put into perspective just how much the developers are responsible.

Just 10 people owe two and a half times as much as 40,492 people. Yet you insist that Joe Public has as much blame in this.

meglome

yekahs wrote: »

As you said "40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro"

When you compare that to 10 individuals owing €17 billion in loans it does put into perspective just how much the developers are responsible.

Just 10 people owe two and a half times as much as 40,492 people. Yet you insist that Joe Public has as much blame in this.

You'd think I was saying the developers are not responsible too. I'm saying we're all responsible. We were living in a high spending low tax state. The majority were happy with this, even though it makes no sense. All paid for by a property bubble.

In 2000 there were residential mortgages to the value of 33 billion Euro, in 2010 it's 177.4 billion Euro. So Joe Public currently owe 177.4 billion Euro. Is anyone really going to tell me that we as a people didn't go mental. Large numbers of the average Irish person took out these loans of their own free will with presumably zero thought of the long term consequences.

Now of course the government should have stopped this, of course the regulator should have been awake, or course the banks shouldn't have been so stupid. That won't change the fact that we, the Irish people, voted consistently for this government and for their mad policy's.

I'm a great believer in personal responsibility. When I looked at apartments to buy I carefully checked the potential mortgage I would have. Based on a number of obvious factors I decided that it would crazy to take a mortgage of that size out, so I didn't buy. If people didn't snap up properties at almost any price, against all sense, the developers wouldn't have bought development land at almost any price. One fuelled the other.

maxxie

meglome wrote: »

Sure. I was pointing out this isn't a handful of people, this is a fairly large number of people here. It's easy to just blame the property developers until you see just how many residential mortgages were taken out.

People did not have to go far to look for loans with banks ringing up customers and offering! The government had us led to believe that the good times where to last for a very long time! Completely irresponsible behavior!

meglome

maxxie wrote: »

People did not have to go far to look for loans with banks ringing up customers and offering! The government had us led to believe that the good times where to last for a very long time! Completely irresponsible behavior!

Damn right it was irresponsible behaviour. But as a people we all were involved in this irresponsible behaviour. FF got elected three times in a row, so we as a people got what we wanted obviously. I appreciate that some people, including myself, didn't buy what they were selling but we were in the minority.

Run_to_da_hills

Interesting reading.

joebucks

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Interesting reading.

neither global nor research?

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Interesting reading.

No it's not really interesting reading. So let's say we leave the Euro, we still owe our debts in Euro, and our new currency will take a riding on the international markets pushing it's value down. This would help exports but everything we buy would be dearer and our debt will rise considerably, given we need more of the new currency to pay them. Then if we were to leave the EU most of our exports are produced by Multinationals who would presumably leave and go to another EU nation so we wouldn't have those exports. Since they make up 80% of our exports we'd be screwed.

So this guy can spin all he wants but he's talking out his arse.

sligopark

meglome wrote: »

I'm saying we're all responsible.

meglome wrote: »

we all were involved in this irresponsible behaviour.

Again WE were not - remember that most of the people are sheep like and were conned by the lies of ff and cannot continued to be blamed by ff, the ecb, the eu or you.

WE WERE NOT TO BLAME.

Yitzhak Rabin

meglome wrote: »

You'd think I was saying the developers are not responsible too. I'm saying we're all responsible. We were living in a high spending low tax state. The majority were happy with this, even though it makes no sense. All paid for by a property bubble.

In 2000 there were residential mortgages to the value of 33 billion Euro, in 2010 it's 177.4 billion Euro. So Joe Public currently owe 177.4 billion Euro. Is anyone really going to tell me that we as a people didn't go mental. Large numbers of the average Irish person took out these loans of their own free will with presumably zero thought of the long term consequences.

Now of course the government should have stopped this, of course the regulator should have been awake, or course the banks shouldn't have been so stupid. That won't change the fact that we, the Irish people, voted consistently for this government and for their mad policy's.

I'm a great believer in personal responsibility. When I looked at apartments to buy I carefully checked the potential mortgage I would have. Based on a number of obvious factors I decided that it would crazy to take a mortgage of that size out, so I didn't buy. If people didn't snap up properties at almost any price, against all sense, the developers wouldn't have bought development land at almost any price. One fuelled the other.

I just don't like the way you apply the collective 'we' are responsible. A majority of people did not buy property. The majority of those that did buy property, bought it as a place to live, not some sort of speculative investment. Also, the majority of people didn't vote for Fianna Fáil.

There is an interesting thread in politics on this. It shows quite clearly that 'we' didn't all go property mad.

Liam Byrne's sig sums up nicely how I view it:

"Just for the record : "everyone" didn't go mental, and "we" are not all responsible for this mess, and I'm no longer going to argue this point with those who try to claim otherwise in order to abdicate responsibility or justify making the real "everyone" take the pain"

sligopark

meglome wrote: »

So this guy can spin all he wants but he's talking out his arse.

much like another commentator that keeps cropping up blaming the irish public for this economic calamity

sligopark

Waffle

The Labour justice spokesman left the Government in no doubt about the reality out there -- a reality that our millionaire ministers seem oblivious to.

Mr Rabbitte spoke for everyone when he unleashed his controlled fury which articulated the public's dismay as the IMF takes over our finances on the Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs on Prime Time. Even before his blistering attack, Mr Rabbitte loudly plonked his glass of water on the studio desk while Mr Carey was speaking.

It was clear he could barely stand to listen to more Government waffle.

"After failing to supervise the regulation of the banks, this Government fails to act between the collapse of Northern Rock and 12 months later, the 28th of September," Mr Rabbitte calmly said.

As Mr Carey tried to defend his administration, the Dublin South West TD had had enough.


"You ought to be ashamed to show your face in this studio after what you have brought our country to penury tonight and the damage that you have done to people's livelihoods and start the young people emmigrating again," Mr Rabbitte said.

"You have destroyed this economy and you engaged in lies over the weekend.

"You denied it and then you went on to pretend that it's Ireland coming to the rescue of Europe," he added, as Mr Carey could only look on in silence.

"It's about time you went because you can do no more damage to this country. And coming on here with your 'auld palaver' about this and that.

"You didn't do anything to avoid the crisis that was coming down the tracks at us.

"You maintained property-based tax incentives until you inflated the bubble that has brought us to the state we're in.


"And now you come out here saying this is someone else's fault not our fault," he told Mr Carey.


Problem

"It's the fault of the Irish Government and you ought to be ashamed of where you brought us tonight."

Mr Carey tried to defend himself, saying "No, I'm not ashamed."

To which Mr Rabbitte quickly responded: "Well you ought to be.

"That's the problem with you -- you're not ashamed. You don't have any shame."


Well said Pat Rabbitte

gizmo

yekahs wrote: »

I just don't like the way you apply the collective 'we' are responsible. A majority of people did not buy property. The majority of those that did buy property, bought it as a place to live, not some sort of speculative investment. Also, the majority of people didn't vote for Fianna Fáil.

The electorate voted for Fianna Fáil, simple as. People can huff and puff about the "we" label all they want but there is no escaping that fact.

yekahs wrote: »

There is an interesting thread in politics on this. It shows quite clearly that 'we' didn't all go property mad.

Actually that thread does show a massive increase in the number of Buy To Let homes which goes some way to proving the "we went mad with property". "We" of course referring to a large number of Irish people, not all of them.

yekahs wrote: »

Liam Byrne's sig sums up nicely how I view it:

"Just for the record : "everyone" didn't go mental, and "we" are not all responsible for this mess, and I'm no longer going to argue this point with those who try to claim otherwise in order to abdicate responsibility or justify making the real "everyone" take the pain"

The problem being is that some people refuse to take any responsibility for their own position whatsoever. Just because the bank threw money at you doesn't mean you had to take it, the sheer number of people who didn't proves just that. Again, the simple fact is that some people were living far beyond their means. As an example, there was a letter to the editor in one of the papers the other day were a reader sarcastically thanked the government for placing them in negative equity. That alone speaks volumes for the lengths some people will go to blame someone but themselves.

sligopark

meglome wrote: »

So this guy can spin all he wants but he's talking out his arse.

much like another commentator that keeps cropping up blaming the irish public for this economic calamity

gizmo give it a break please - much like the ordinary taxpayer I am sick to the teeth of folk trying to blame me for destroying my country's economy


love to see you go door to door with meglome and ff giving this argument to folks

those not fearing a ban here on boards.ie would quickly use words sounding like truck and off, fire out a thump or two in your immediate direction and get the dogs out of the kitchen

tell US this when you are trying to blame me and others for destroying our children's future - how would you punish the more complicit in this treacherous crime like seanie, drum dum, fingers, mr potato head, brian the traitor, foul mouth mary, the financial regulators and the ecb? Or are they not to blame its only US?

gizmo

sligopark wrote: »

gizmo give it a break please - much like the ordinary taxpayer I am sick to the teeth of folk trying to blame me for destroying my country's economy

If you had actually read my post you'll find I was quite clear on the whole blame issue.

sligopark wrote: »

love to see you go door to door with meglome and ff giving this argument to folks

You seem to equate advocating a bit of personal responsibility with being pro-FF. Personally speaking that's not the case in the slightest, I'll happily see them wiped out in the elections for their mismanagement of the country.

sligopark wrote: »

those not fearing a ban here on boards.ie would quickly use words sounding like truck and off, fire out a thump or two in your immediate direction and get the dogs out of the kitchen

Acting like a common thug will definitely get us far.

sligopark wrote: »

tell US this when you are trying to blame me and others for destroying our children's future - how would you punish the more complicit in this treacherous crime like seanie, drum dum, fingers, mr potato head, brian the traitor, foul mouth mary, the financial regulators and the ecb? Or are they not to blame its only US?

Well you definitely didn't read my post so. To clarify for your benefit:
I'd like nothing more than to see Fitzpatrick, Drumm et al locked up for their actions, especially since it now appears it was a case of them breaking the law rather than simply being reckless.

Cowen was never fit to run the country and if today's reports are to be believed he won't be leading the party into the next election. Frankly I reckon he'll have trouble holding onto his seat.

Lenihan is a slightly different case, he was not part of the Haughey generation and so I believe he wasn't caught up in the cronyism and shady dealings the rest of his party became synonymous with. What I will agree with his the fact that he made some awful decisions since becoming Minister for Justice and should definitely be shown the door.

Harney? Useless, utterly useless.

The Regulator? I wasn't aware there even was regulation. Neary should have been ****ed out of that position long ago, sans pension, and someone competent put in his position. Of course they then would have needed to have ignored government calls for lack regulation...

So no, we're not to blame, certainly not to the extent others indicate. As I said above however, we still put them in power despite despite it being blindingly obvious it was a the wrong call during the last election and many people were living beyond their means despite warnings from certain sectors. They're the people who I would refer to as the "we" in this context.

K-9

Everybody who did buy property in the last 7/8 years should just hand back the keys and disown the loans. Everybody. Any cars etc. bought on finance as well.

Give up the luxuries the cheap finance facilitated.

Wont happen though.

Flaregon

K-9 wrote: »

Everybody who did buy property in the last 7/8 years should just hand back the keys and disown the loans. Everybody. Any cars etc. bought on finance as well.

Give up the luxuries the cheap finance facilitated.

Wont happen though.

Well not till theres a major change in goverment so stuff can be passed, insted of blouted golden hand shacks clouding everything.