How often shud a dog have pups?

andreac

Jinxi wrote: »

I hate the arguments people out forward for breeding their pure breds. Every owner thinks that their dog is a wonderful secimen of the breed(arrogent). All pure breeds have some genetic health issues although some have more than others. There is one reason people put their dogs through a pregnancy(which you all agree diminishs their health for a time-otherwise why not breed in sucessive heats) and thats to make money. Kaiser, I hate to judge, but by your own admission your dogs have some form of seizures in their genentic history and yet you still choose to breed them? Isn;t that against best breeding standards.

My advise to the OP is, for pities sake, there are so many dogs out there that need good homes. I know some people hate the idea of getting a dog with an unknown background froma pound(unfortuatly this opinion exists) but there are people who are giving away many types of pups free too.
Mongrels are, in general, smarter and healthier. To quote someone earlier, Dogs are dogs, simples
ALSO, for arguemnts sake, this breeder may not be a puppy farmer. They may be uneducated in what is accepable, or they may have had a breeding accident. Too quick to jump to comclusion. If worried call the ispca and let them deal with it

Sorry, but i disagree with that statement. Not all people who breed do it for money and most breeders who do it responsibly and properly will not make very much money as the costs involved in planning and having a litter are huge so most breeders will make very little profit.

Also, most breeders will breed to get something back from the bitch for themselves and keep the line going if the bitch is a good bitch and has produced good quality pups.

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

There are many reasons why breeders would breed more than twice, they might try a bitch with several different dogs before they get a 'great' litter.

They have a waiting list.

They want to replace their own line and/or pets.

This is not an exhaustive list, try thinking from a breeders' perspective, and outside your bubble.

You forgot the key reason - to make money.

boxerly

I just wanted to say that who ever made the remark about X breeds being more intelligent than purebreds are talking aload of poop I have 4 PB dogs,2 boxers,a lab and a bichon who are all very very intelligent.I have fostered lots of pb and x breeds and each dog is different:)IMHO health is the same,my 11.5 year old boxer was fit as a fiddle up till about 2 years ago now he has dialated cardiomyopathy and took a stroke last week:(.I have seen PB and X breeds with bad health through out their lives.There are some very caring breeders out there who shouldnt be put down and branded the same as the scum that churn out litter after litter and inbreed aswell.I have a bichon here who was registered with the IKC...when the papers came out her father was also her grandfather?of course I contacted the IKC who said contact breeder? guess what...no answer.She has problems both physically and mentally:(.Bad breeders need to be stopped !

andreac

Discodog wrote: »

You forgot the key reason - to make money.

Sorry, but i disagree, see my above post.

kaiser sauze

lrushe wrote: »

Kaiser, did you find out what cause the seizure, whether it was genetic or not?
If it was genetic have the owners of the pups from this bitches litters been contacted and notified so they can be on the lookout for symptoms in their dogs? And also the breeder of your bitch as they most likely have siblings of your bitch.
Have you endorsed all of the pups from this bitches litters so they will not be bred from?
The above are just questions, not judgements.

The cause has turned out to not be genetic, however, all persons who bought from me have still been informed.

kaiser sauze

dollydishmop wrote: »

Delighted to hear it.



All veterinary assurances aside, one of your breeding bitches had a seizure...which maybe the onset of idiopathic epilepsy, or it may not. Your vet is not in a position to make a definite judgement either way, only time will tell, right now, for that bitch, it is merely a waiting game for both of you.
Any tests he can offer you will not diagnose epilepsy, they will only serve to rule out other causes of seizures, eg poisoning, liver disease, brain tumour etc
When one of my dogs developed idiopathic epilepsy, her first two seizures were 18 months apart...some epileptic dogs have had longer intervals between their early seizures...
And if your vet led you to believe that he can assess the likelihood of your other dogs having seizures in the future, via blood test, then either he is taking you for a ride, or he needs to go back to vet school.
At present canine epilepsy cannot be positively diagnosed by blood test.

As such, considering your 3yo bitch is the daughter of the 6yo who had the seizure, I presume you will not be breeding from the 3yo any more either. In my books, as both a former IKC breeder and someone who has experience with idiopathic epilepsy (not in my breeding line thank DoG), getting all three dogs spayed now is, in my books, the only responsible thing to do. Cut that line dead,and start again. Truly, canine epilepsy is not something to trifle with, even if your vet won't diagnose on the strength of one seizure - and he's right not to do so. But neither can he rule it out at this point in time.
Unless they are of some ultra rare breed, whereby breeding dogs, with a family history of seizure, albeit currently only one episode, is something which would need to be very heavily weighed-up in the interests of the breed in question, then it is my opinion that they should no longer be bred from.
I also sincerely hope that you have contacted all the owners of the three litters of pups produced by the 6yo to notify them of their dam's seizure. Being a responsible breeder, I'm sure you have.




Actually, I just re-read this section....I'm not familiar with the drug 'epephrin'...by chance, do you mean 'epiphen' (Phenobarbitol)?

Epiphen is the normal 'starter' drug for canine epilepsy. But I would be extremely cautious of a vet who (a) won't definitely diagnose canine eplepsy, but (b) would also put the dog on epiphen on the strength of just one seizure, even if the single seizure was a grand mal.
It is more normal for the vet to apply 'watchful waiting', and certainly not be too hasty to prescribe anti-seizure drugs. Its more normal to hold off with medication until the seizure intervals are down to monthly / fortnightly episodes.
If she is on epiphen (or any other phenobarb derived medication) I hope he also told you she'll need 6-monthly blood tests to check her liver function too. Phenobarb plays merry hell with their livers.

I'm not a vet, but I do have fairly extensive experience with canine epilepsy.
I hope for all your sakes that it was just a one-off, but I strongly encourage you to get a second opinion with regards to whether your 6yo bitch needs to be on medication for it right now. Best of luck with, seizures in dogs is no laughing matter

And I know I'm repeating myself, but I really don't think you should consider breeding from the 3yo until you have a definite answer on the 6yo status with regards to epilepsy...which may take a few years before you can be more sure she won't have further seizures. I just don't think its worth the risk if there's even a slightest question mark over that particular bloodline.

Just my opinion, drawn on from my own experience with both epilepsy and breeding, take it or leave it

I never mentioned canine epilepsy, you did.

The drug is Epiphen, my mis-spelling. Sorry.

I will not be spaying my 3 year old, there is no need.

My six year old will be spayed, likely in the new year, when the levels of epiphen dosage have been finalised. My 12 year old was spayed several years ago.

I do not need a second opinion.

I could write a dissertation on this topic in relation to my experiences over the last while, however, I simply do not have that much time.

kaiser sauze

Shanao wrote: »

Actually I can because I personally know the breeder. And to be perfectly honest with you, I find it quite amusing that you get so up in arms over someone else's opinions. You have yours, I have mine, can we rally together and accept that fact? Never once did I say it is a rule, and my rule, and I rule all of the breeders so a dog can only have two litters!! Perhaps I have a rather biased opinion on it having to deal with dogs being dumped outside my home at least once a month. Perhaps you are a responsible breeder, I dont know, i dont know you or anything about you. But I have dealt with animal welfare and the lack of law and legislation in this country for quite some time and even know I can still find myself horrified by what people do. The fact remains the same; there are too many dogs in this country and far, far too many irresponsible breeders.

As the OP came here looking for advice, I took it upon myself to give her the advice I would give most people. Perhaps you disagree with that, that is fine- that is after all, your opinion. But this are mine and I would rather that you didn't attempt to belittle me for stating it.

I dont want to start yet another argument but I would advise taking a breather before replying; this forum is supposed to be for fun discussion and far too many people are becoming utterly outraged by what 'some stranger on the internet said'.

Many people cannot verify what a breeder tells them, they may live 1-200 miles away from them.


You stated your 'opinion' as fact, you did not qualify it, either by pointing to relevant guidelines, eg IKC (which dispute what you posted), or by use of 'in my opinion' or somesuch.

Words matter.

"The most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two..." is worlds apart from 'I believe the most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two'.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

You forgot the key reason - to make money.

I get it, you hate breeders. :rolleyes:

kaiser sauze

Jinxi wrote: »

I hate the arguments people out forward for breeding their pure breds. Every owner thinks that their dog is a wonderful secimen of the breed(arrogent). All pure breeds have some genetic health issues although some have more than others. There is one reason people put their dogs through a pregnancy(which you all agree diminishs their health for a time-otherwise why not breed in sucessive heats) and thats to make money. Kaiser, I hate to judge, but by your own admission your dogs have some form of seizures in their genentic history and yet you still choose to breed them? Isn;t that against best breeding standards.

My advise to the OP is, for pities sake, there are so many dogs out there that need good homes. I know some people hate the idea of getting a dog with an unknown background froma pound(unfortuatly this opinion exists) but there are people who are giving away many types of pups free too.
Mongrels are, in general, smarter and healthier. To quote someone earlier, Dogs are dogs, simples
ALSO, for arguemnts sake, this breeder may not be a puppy farmer. They may be uneducated in what is accepable, or they may have had a breeding accident. Too quick to jump to comclusion. If worried call the ispca and let them deal with it

I missed this first time around.

I take it you are not a breeder? Then you don't have a clue.

Jinxi

andreac wrote: »

Sorry, but i disagree with that statement. Not all people who breed do it for money and most breeders who do it responsibly and properly will not make very much money as the costs involved in planning and having a litter are huge so most breeders will make very little profit.

Also, most breeders will breed to get something back from the bitch for themselves and keep the line going if the bitch is a good bitch and has produced good quality pups.

Andreac respectfully(as i have agreed with alot of what you say about pet care), I disagree with yours. Not making very much money, thats still making money. If breeding dogs was unprofitable, the industry wouldn't exist.
And "keeping a line going"...is that because they have good pedigree's, good breeders, good award winners and therefore the pups will be worth more?
I think my dog is adorable. I think she is incredibly clever, obiedient, and would be a great pet/working dog. I would love to have a dughter or son of hers. But she is a mongrel. No papers. If I said on the boeards here I was going to breed her for any of those reasons I would get alot of people, esp dog breeders, who would be up in arms.

THERE ARE ENOUGH DOGS!

I implore OP to go to a pound...get a greyhound...there are ridiculous numbers out there who want homes

I

Princess Aries

My God its getting very heated on here!!

Were I do understand everyone has there own opinion I have to say:

C'mon guys there are such crappy things happening in this country right now and so much bad news and bad feelings out there we don't need it on here too, I come on here to get away from all that tension

Anywho i aint going to get bogged down with negetivity, just wanted to say thanks for everyones advice and help I really appreciate it..

Me personally I just want to get a dog to be my companion & friend.. & to hopefully be a family pet for many years to come. Myself and my partner have loadsa love to give and dont under estimate about how much of a committment it is..

I took all advice that ive gotten on here on board, I have been on other threads on here too cause originally I was going to get a Westie but after lots of research and thought I decided that a Shih Tzu was the best breed for me and my partner.

I contacted a few different people and we found a lovely couple whose 4yr old bitch had pup's 5 wks ago..
The bitch and the male are both family pets and this was the bitches 2nd litter, her 1st was two years ago. I went to see both parents and the litter yesterday and they are gorgeous! The parents have a really nice temprament, very calm and seem really healthy.. So after a good chat with the owners we decided to take one of the Pup's a male, so im really chuffed now!

Both parents have 5 generation papers that I will get a copy of, puppy will come with all vacinations, I'll have proof of this from a vet, he will also be microchipped and be wormed regulary.. I could tell that the pup's have been bred with loads of love and affection..

Our little guy is actually one of the biggest in the litter and is adorable, he will be ready to go on the 17th of Dec but the owner has kindly offered to hold onto him until the 22nd of Dec as this means I can take more time off work after xmas to settle him in his new home and get going on his training!! which should be fun, Ive read on some sites that Shih Tzu's are hard to hse break because of there small bladder, so wish me luck! Ive been in contact with my local vet so he is going to see my little man on the morning of the 23rd, so fingers crossed all goes well..

Oh somebody on an earlier post asked why wouldnt I go to a rescue, I had considered this and looked into it in detail but because I have a job rescue's will not re-house a dog with me.. To be honest I can kinda understand why rescue's have this rule but I think its a pity at the same time cause we would have had a really good home to offer.. Anywho thats the way it goes and we have our little guy now so Im delighted and cant wait to get him home.. We just have to think of a name for him which has caused massive debate at home and in work all day!!! All suggestions greatly welcomed!!

lrushe

kaiser sauze wrote: »

The cause has turned out to not be genetic, however, all persons who bought from me have still been informed.

That's good, nothing worse than finding a genetic fault in one of your foundation bitches, I have a friend in America who has found SAS in one of the Rottweiler pups she bred this year (parents both negative for it), she's had to abandon that bloodline and start from scratch, so many years of hard work and money gone down the drain, these are things that people who breed without knowledge don't seem to realise.

lrushe

Jinxi wrote: »

And "keeping a line going"...is that because they have good pedigree's, good breeders, good award winners and therefore the pups will be worth more?
I think my dog is adorable. I think she is incredibly clever, obiedient, and would be a great pet/working dog. I would love to have a dughter or son of hers. But she is a mongrel. No papers. If I said on the boeards here I was going to breed her for any of those reasons I would get alot of people, esp dog breeders, who would be up in arms.

THERE ARE ENOUGH DOGS!

I implore OP to go to a pound...get a greyhound...there are ridiculous numbers out there who want homes

I

You have a v.negative view on breeders, sure there are some bad ones but there are also some fantastic ones. There is v.little profit to be made if breeding is done right.
Consider this, firstly a bitch has to be 2 years old at the v.youngest to be bred - that's 2 years worth of upkeep of that dog.
Then a bitch should only be bred if she earns her CH., that's could be years of trekking around shows, travel expenses, entry fees etc.
Then a bitch should be screened for genetic problems - this is not cheap.
Then there's the stud fee.
Then finally the cost of raising a litter of pups, vet care, registration etc.
If by any chance after doing all of the above there is any surplus made most breeders will funnel that right back into their dogs.
Yes breeders do like to keep their lines going, not for money but because it can take years and years of hard work and dedication to develop.
I have pedigree dogs and if I got on here and said I was breeding any of them with out doing any of the above people would be up in arms and rightly so.
Your right there are enough dogs out there and that's why breeding any new ones should be strictly managed and not something any Tom, Dick or Harry with a pair of dogs should do.
As for adopting a greyhound, it is one of my dreams for the future but because I work full time they won't consider me, unfortunately it's not always as simple as popping down to the local rescue and picking up a new dog.

toadfly

Princess Aries wrote: »

Oh somebody on an earlier post asked why wouldnt I go to a rescue, I had considered this and looked into it in detail but because I have a job rescue's will not re-house a dog with me..

Thats not really true. Most rescues (all have different rules) wont rehome a pup to a fulltime worker but it is possible to get a dog from a rescue and work.

Cherry Blossom

OP - best of luck with the new puppy and I hope this 'heated debate' hasn't put you off this forum as a resource. There are lots of threads on here about training techniques, crate training, food and nutrition and general puppy problems. I hope you find a lot of the information on here helpful. Breeding and breeders is a topic which generally has a lot of varying and conflicting opinions and not every topic is as controversial!

Jinxi

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I missed this first time around.

I take it you are not a breeder? Then you don't have a clue.

Thanks for the wonderful argument you put up. Obviously because I choose not to breed dogs that means I am of lesser IQ than you.

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I get it, you hate breeders. :rolleyes:

You get nothing. Plenty of breeders make a fortune, so much so that they industrialise their businesses. We call them Puppy Farms but they are just big scale breeders.

What I really hate is the totally unnecessary killing of thousands of unwanted dogs. I accept that people may buy a puppy for their own personal reasons, although I cannot think of a valid reason. I also accept that people breed to satisfy the demand. I have owned pedigree dogs, in the UK, but I could never be comfortable buying a dog here knowing that I could of saved a life by taking a rescue dog.

Jinxi

Last post I promise.
Just to clarify. I don't have a bad opinion of all breeders. I think there are absolutly some people who love and adore dogs and get obsessed with a particular breed(I have a thing for collies and GSD). There are good and bad breeders like there are good and bad people. I have an issue with the reasons some people put up for breeding. I have a particular peeve for hybrid breeding as I feel the people who buy them are being ripped off.

But I still cannot help feel, like Discodog, that everytime a dog has an intentional litter, that are rehomed into good homes, those places are homes that an unwanted dog that is about to be euthanised could go.

People who buy purebreds, are more likely to be the "give it a go" breeder who genuinely don't know what they are doing. If they just loved the breed then there are plenty of purebreds up for adoption or rehoming if they were willing to do the searching.

Unlike other poster(s), I have not intentionally meant to offend anyone personally. I didn't even intend to get into the purebred VS mongrel debate. Just though I would urge the OP to try a rescue dog. Not all rescue homes have the strict rules that put some people off.

dollydishmop

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I never mentioned canine epilepsy, you did.

Quite correct. On your statement that your dog had a seizure I merely surmised that there's a strong possibility it may have canine epilepsy if no other medical cause was found for the seizure.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

The drug is Epiphen, my mis-spelling. Sorry.

No need to apologise, I guessed it might have been a typo, but wanted to clarify.

However, if your dog doesn't have epilepsy (is that what you are implying?), why has it been put on Epiphen for the rest of its life? Did your vet explain this at all?
Epiphen is a brand of phenobarbitol, a prescription drug solely used in the management of canine epilepsy.

I would also be extremely interested to know just what tests your vet did do, for you to be so sure its not genetic?
You do know there is no positive test for epilepsy don't you? Nor is there currently any screening test available either, to check if a dog would be susceptible to developing canine epilepsy. No gene markers have yet been identified. So how your vet can confidently state that your other two dogs are clear, and that it isn't genetic, is quite frankly beyond me?
I truly would like to know what tests he did in order to come to his conclusions.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I will not be spaying my 3 year old, there is no need.

Alas, given the info you have supplied, this saddens me. I would hope that a responsible breeder might take a more pro-active stance if there was even a hint of a serious problem, such as epilepsy, in the breeding line.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

My six year old will be spayed, likely in the new year, when the levels of epiphen dosage have been finalised.

Best of luck with that, getting the dose right can be tricky. Too much, and the dog is an over-sedated out-of-it zombie, and too little brings the heartbreak and frustration of those 'breakthrough' seizures.
But then again, if your dog doesn't have epilepsy, then its a mystery to me why it has been prescribed Epiphen in the first place?
If you haven't already, you might want to look into supplementing her diet with Milk Thistle to counteract some of the negative impact on the liver caused by long-term use of phenobarb.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I could write a dissertation on this topic in relation to my experiences over the last while, however, I simply do not have that much time.

Shame - I'd love to read it if you ever did find the time.

kaiser sauze

Jinxi wrote: »

Thanks for the wonderful argument you put up. Obviously because I choose not to breed dogs that means I am of lesser IQ than you.

The IQ part I cannot answer from interactions on a web-forum.

The breeder part, as I said before, you do not have a clue.

Discodog wrote: »

You get nothing. Plenty of breeders make a fortune, so much so that they industrialise their businesses. We call them Puppy Farms but they are just big scale breeders.

I'm sorry, what?

Puppy-farms are a big problem, I have stated this before. If you know one, report them to the ISPCA and the IKC, and less pontificating to me.

Graces7

Not all breeders are "bad". We in our family, but in Canada not here, bred dogs many years to championship standards. And were assiduous re blood lines to a degree that is sadly lacking in Ireland. And were assiduous also in not overbreeding.

Any line even suspected of any genetic flaw would be ended.

And we followed our dogs lives after they were sold. That was in the sales contract.

Many love pure bred dogs simply.

Most good breeders do not make much money incidentally.

But Canada is thankfully more advanced than Ireland. We would always rescue here. Always and always neuter also

Princess Aries

TillyGirl wrote: »

Thats not really true. Most rescues (all have different rules) wont rehome a pup to a fulltime worker but it is possible to get a dog from a rescue and work.

Sorry I meant to put in my earlier post "most rescues" will not rehome dogs with me because I work full time, any that I contacted refused me point blank and to be honest kinda made me feel like I was committing a mortal sin for having a job and wanting to get a dog.. So after all that they had put me off the idea of getting a rescue dog, not forever tho, if I do ever find myself at home during the day in the future I would look into getting another dog from a rescue..

I thought long and hard about getting a dog and which route to take, rescue dog/puppy and I am very happy with my decision it was definitly not taken lightly, I know how much is involved in getting a puppy and starting from scratch but I am willing to put in the hard work and am looking forward to the challenge..

Princess Aries

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP - best of luck with the new puppy and I hope this 'heated debate' hasn't put you off this forum as a resource. There are lots of threads on here about training techniques, crate training, food and nutrition and general puppy problems. I hope you find a lot of the information on here helpful. Breeding and breeders is a topic which generally has a lot of varying and conflicting opinions and not every topic is as controversial!

AJ thanks a million I will keep all that in mind!! Have defo found Boards really helpful in making all my decisions about getting my dog, and I think I will be logged in 24/7 once the little guy comes home!!

Breeding/Breeders defo seems 2b a very controversial subject!! One of which I would rather not be involved so I'll be signing off this thread and I'll leave the rest of you to it!!

Thanks again for anyone who gave helpful advice I would have been lost without it!

ISDW

Graces7 wrote: »

Not all breeders are "bad". We in our family, but in Canada not here, bred dogs many years to championship standards. And were assiduous re blood lines to a degree that is sadly lacking in Ireland. And were assiduous also in not overbreeding.

Any line even suspected of any genetic flaw would be ended.

And we followed our dogs lives after they were sold. That was in the sales contract.

Many love pure bred dogs simply.

Most good breeders do not make much money incidentally.

But Canada is thankfully more advanced than Ireland. We would always rescue here. Always and always neuter also

I know that Ireland is bad when it comes to animal welfare, but I for one am fed up with you slating this country all the time. I love Canada, I have been there many times, and do sometimes wish that I had moved there when I was younger. However it is not this nirvana that you make out that it is. Puppy mills are not illegal in Canada, so there is as much - probably more, due to the size of the country - bad breeding there as there is here. Commercial breeders are not regulated in Canada, so I don't see what the difference is between there and here.

There are fantastic breeders here, who do all the right things regarding blood lines, and who have puppy contracts that insist the dog is returned to them if circumstances chance, please stop tarring all Irish dog breeders with the same brush.

In my opinion, sled dogs in Canada are the same as greyhounds in Ireland, a commodity and they are disposed of if they don't come up to scratch. Most of them spend their entire lives on chains, except when they're working. When they're too old to work, they will be lucky to find a good pet home, but a lot will be shot and dumped.

As I said, I know that Ireland has its problems with animal welfare, I run a rescue, true me, I know, but you are so negative about it, whilst always holding Canada up as a paragon of virtue. Its not, so please get real. I just don't understand why someone who so obviously despises a country continues to live in it

Before I get accused of being xenophobic, I'm not, I actually grew up in the UK and Germany and have travelled extensively but I love Ireland, and am just fed up with you constantly belitting it and its people.

marley123

EGAR ( East Galway Animal rescue ) have Bichon x pups they are looking to rehome. Would you not consider rescuing ?