How often shud a dog have pups?

Princess Aries

Hi all,

Wondering if I could get some advice? Ive been looking into getting a dog and have been doing loads of research and ringing around etc..

Three of the breeds I really like are Westies, Shih Tzu's and Bichon Frise..

I have found someone who is selling Shih Tzu/Bichon Frise cross pup's and have given her a call and she sounds really genuine and said the pup's are being rared around small children - who I could actually hear in the backround!! Also the mother and father are purebred's and are both there to be seen.. All sounded ideal apart from the fact when I asked when the bitch had last had pup's before this litter and she answered last March..

That caused alarm bells to go off as I thought this sounded quite soon for the bitch to have 2 litters in less than 12 mths..

I dont know awhole lot about breeding dogs as any dogs ive had have been neutered and were just family pets.. Could anyone tell me if this seems too soon? Would hate to think the poor girl is churning out pup's just for her owner to make a quick few quid.. :mad:
Altho she seemed very genuine and was upfront about the whole thing of the 2 litters and didnt hesitate to answer any questions I had..

I had been interested in going to view the pup's and check the whole thing out properly but it would be a 2hr drive from where im living so dont want to go that far if it would be a wasted journey..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

lorebringer

What age are the parents? Were they her first two heats?

Personally, alarm bells would be ringing and I would be very suspicious of the whole situation.

Shanao

My advice- walk away. The most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two, there is no way in hell she could have been strong enough to have two litters within that amount of time. To be honest, sounds like a puppy farmer to me. Responsible breeders wont breed a bitch more than once year. And I know the idea of a shih tzu/ bichon frise might sound like a good idea, but please consider one or the other. The only people you will get these crossbreeds from are puppy farmers; these dogs are essentially mongrels and not actually worth the money these breeders want for them. They can suffer from the health issues that both breeds are prone, leading to a bigger risk of health problems.

I would look for a good, responsible breeder- I recently went to look at pups and spent an hour and a half with the breeder who asked me as many questions as I asked her. The bitch was two and a half and had never been bred before, and they are planning on breeding her once more, then getting her spayed. These are the kind of breeders that are unfortunately a minority in Ireland, but you should be able to find good breeders of both shih tzus and bichons out there and I would reccommend that you search one of them out. You may pay more for a purebred from a good breeder, but a healthy pup from good lines means less problems and less vet visits.

Hope this helps you.

Bizzum

lorebringer wrote: »

What age are the parents? Were they her first two heats?

Personally, alarm bells would be ringing and I would be very suspicious of the whole situation.

+1

I would not buy a pup from a person who had bred from her bitch 2 heats in a row: it smacks of a profit-driven venture. The IKC and other Kennel Clubs around the world do not condone successive breedings and supposedly will not register pups from successive litters from the same bitch, although I have seen papers from successive litters that suggest the IKC are a bit sloppy in this regard.
I would also not read too much into the pups being reared around kids until I'd seen the set-up with my own eyes: pups being reared out in a shed and seeing the kids every so often is a very different thing to pups being reared in the house with the kids there all the time.
I personally am deeply sceptical of this fad of breeding mongrels: they market the pups as having "hybrid vigour" or not having as many health problems as their purebred parents. This is simply not true. Firstly, they are not hybrids, they are crossbreeds. The offspring of these matings stand almost as high a chance of inheriting one of the health defects their parents may have. I can't help but feel that people who are producing these "designer crossbreeds" are doing so solely for money. Furthermore, it is a breach of all international Kennel Club codes of ethics to allow a purebred dog to produce pups with a dog not of their own breed.
From experience, Shih-Tsus have a tendency to be Westie-like in termperament, and can be on the snappy side. I've met some lovely ones, but I've met some really nasty ones too.

Cherry Blossom

Be very wary of people selling so-called designer breeds as I've never heard of one that isn't basically a back-yard puppy farm. Imo cross breeds should either be free to good home or come from a rescue. Reputable breeders put the time, money and effort into raising their pups properly and the price reflects things like stud fees, (highly unusual for a person to happen to own both a bitch and dog that compliment each other and of high enough standard to breed them together) proper IKC registration, and the cost of full health tests for any problems that are common with the breed (or either breed in this case). Good breeders charge the amount they do because they are covering the costs that they have put into the litter. Breeders which are not so reputable charge the same prices because they get away with it. Another factor in raising pups properly is that reputable breeders do not have pups at this time of year, basically because a bitch can only have so many litters (or is supposed to) and spring puppies get a much better start in life. If you are prepared to wait untill late February onwards you will find it much easier to find a good breeder.

The best advice I can give you at this point is to do lots of research on the health issues which are common in the breeds you are interested in, do this on breed specific websites not general dog sites. When you are ringing up people ask them what the health problems are that are common in the breed/breeds involved and as you will already know the answer this can be a guide to whether or not the person knows what they are talking about and you can can take it from there.

andreac

A responsible breeder does not intentionally cross 2 breeds of dogs!!

Walk away from these people, they are not breeders, they are puppy farmers:mad:

Princess Aries

Ahh god my supicions have been confirmed! really had a bad feeling when she said this about the mother.. Jaysus the poor girl, my heart is going out to her now!

Definitley will not get involved with this lady no matter how much that it could tug on the heart strings, that has been my 1st priority all along make sure not to buy from a "Puppy Farmer":mad:

Its mad cause when you think of Puppy Farms you think of some really horrible, rude, greedy person breeding dogs in smelly sheds but when in reality they can be normal everyday people.. cause this lady was very normal..

I really dont know how people can do it I really dont, they obviously dont have much respect for the dogs...

Didnt know that about Cross breeding different pure breds thanks for that info! They can look so cute the Bischon/Shih crosses but this is obviously why they do it to play on the cuteability factor and not the fact whats best for the animals..

Going to do more research and look into a proper breeder of a Bichon or Shih Tzu's..

I will hang on until Feb if I have to cause I want to do the right thing but the reason why I want to get one in the next month is because I can take 2-3wks hols from wrk at xmas and want to concentrate all my time on crate/potty/chewtoy training the little guy.. Obviously all that will not happen in 3wks but want to get a good start on it..

Thanks guys for all the advice, only new to boards but everyone is great on here, totally on the ball and really really helpful!

alot better than some of the narrow minded, misguided info I was getting from some people in general who I told I was getting a dog ie "They will chew up your furniture!" "you can never go on hols again" "you'll be tied and not have freedom in your everyday life" "they smell and will pee and poop all over your house" ..... Seriously I could go on and on and on! Of course dogs can chew things and do have accidents when they are puppies but what about all the joy they bring to your life that defo outweighs the hard work to me!

I avoid telling people now cause their negetive opinions were putting me off the idea, so the opinions on here are a breath of fresh air! Thanks again fellow dog lovers

sligopark

Perhaps best in the new year checking out rescue centres in your area for pups - puppy farms have recently been added to by back yard breeders

lorebringer

sligopark wrote: »

Perhaps best in the new year checking out rescue centres in your area for pups - puppy farms have recently been added to by back yard breeders

I was just about to suggest this - most good breeders will not home pups around Christmas and New Years and so many BYB of puppy farm pups end up in rescues because of impulse purchases around this time. Keep your eyes peeled for them in rescues and pounds once the Christmas period has settled down. Another big boom period for puppy buying is Valentines day so it would definitely be worth checking out rescues and pounds around the end of February. Also, about 6 - 9 months after Christmas lots of dogs (who were Christmas puppies) end up in rescue and pounds because of "behavioural problems" (ie. people didn't put the time and work into them and now they are sick of them) that are perfectly good pets (and still quite young, often under a year) that just need a bit of work.

The phrase "a puppy is for life, not just for Christmas" is such a cliche but it really hasn't sunk in with so many people, no matter how many times they hear it.

duracell_bunny

If you were interested in a rescue, you should maybe contact EGAR (on here or directly through her website) as she has just rescued a litter of 4 bischon/terrier pups. Obviously, you'd have to speak to her as regards whether your situation is suitable, passing a homecheck etc.

kaiser sauze

OK, a lot of histrionics and mis-information here, but I agree with the overriding sentiment to walk away from this 'breeder'.

Princess Aries wrote: »

Hi all,

Wondering if I could get some advice? Ive been looking into getting a dog and have been doing loads of research and ringing around etc..

Three of the breeds I really like are Westies, Shih Tzu's and Bichon Frise..

I have found someone who is selling Shih Tzu/Bichon Frise cross pup's and have given her a call and she sounds really genuine and said the pup's are being rared around small children - who I could actually hear in the backround!! Also the mother and father are purebred's and are both there to be seen.. All sounded ideal apart from the fact when I asked when the bitch had last had pup's before this litter and she answered last March..

That caused alarm bells to go off as I thought this sounded quite soon for the bitch to have 2 litters in less than 12 mths..

I dont know awhole lot about breeding dogs as any dogs ive had have been neutered and were just family pets.. Could anyone tell me if this seems too soon? Would hate to think the poor girl is churning out pup's just for her owner to make a quick few quid.. :mad:
Altho she seemed very genuine and was upfront about the whole thing of the 2 litters and didnt hesitate to answer any questions I had..

I had been interested in going to view the pup's and check the whole thing out properly but it would be a 2hr drive from where im living so dont want to go that far if it would be a wasted journey..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

What ages are the dog and the bitch, in months?

Having pups two heats in a row is not inhumane or cruel, if those dogs were in the wild there would be no stopping those two mating if they had crossed paths. Humans regularly have children and have another one (or twins or more:eek:) nine-ten months later, nature has put the cycles in place for a reason. People just make the errors of assigning what they perceive as excess onto situations they don't fully understand, or they jump on the cruelty bandwagon.

What is truly wrong in this situation, before I am told their ages, is the cross-breeding; this practice of cross breeding thoroughbred dogs is becoming a scourge and puts responsible breeders like me in the bad books.

Shanao wrote: »

My advice- walk away. The most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two, there is no way in hell she could have been strong enough to have two litters within that amount of time. To be honest, sounds like a puppy farmer to me. Responsible breeders wont breed a bitch more than once year. And I know the idea of a shih tzu/ bichon frise might sound like a good idea, but please consider one or the other. The only people you will get these crossbreeds from are puppy farmers; these dogs are essentially mongrels and not actually worth the money these breeders want for them. They can suffer from the health issues that both breeds are prone, leading to a bigger risk of health problems.

I would look for a good, responsible breeder- I recently went to look at pups and spent an hour and a half with the breeder who asked me as many questions as I asked her. The bitch was two and a half and had never been bred before, and they are planning on breeding her once more, then getting her spayed. These are the kind of breeders that are unfortunately a minority in Ireland, but you should be able to find good breeders of both shih tzus and bichons out there and I would reccommend that you search one of them out. You may pay more for a purebred from a good breeder, but a healthy pup from good lines means less problems and less vet visits.

Hope this helps you.

Before I take you up on this, where do you get the "The most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two..."?

Bizzum wrote: »

+1

I would not buy a pup from a person who had bred from her bitch 2 heats in a row: it smacks of a profit-driven venture. The IKC and other Kennel Clubs around the world do not condone successive breedings and supposedly will not register pups from successive litters from the same bitch, although I have seen papers from successive litters that suggest the IKC are a bit sloppy in this regard.
I would also not read too much into the pups being reared around kids until I'd seen the set-up with my own eyes: pups being reared out in a shed and seeing the kids every so often is a very different thing to pups being reared in the house with the kids there all the time.
I personally am deeply sceptical of this fad of breeding mongrels: they market the pups as having "hybrid vigour" or not having as many health problems as their purebred parents. This is simply not true. Firstly, they are not hybrids, they are crossbreeds. The offspring of these matings stand almost as high a chance of inheriting one of the health defects their parents may have. I can't help but feel that people who are producing these "designer crossbreeds" are doing so solely for money. Furthermore, it is a breach of all international Kennel Club codes of ethics to allow a purebred dog to produce pups with a dog not of their own breed.
From experience, Shih-Tsus have a tendency to be Westie-like in termperament, and can be on the snappy side. I've met some lovely ones, but I've met some really nasty ones too.

The IKC will register successive litters, but you will be immediately on the watchlist and if you were to breed 6-12 months after those you run the risk of having the registration declined and your membership stripped.

The urban legend is that the IKC will allow three litters in every four heats.

+1 on the mongrel breeds not having any advantage over thoroughbreds. They are all dogs, simples.

andreac wrote: »

A responsible breeder does not intentionally cross 2 breeds of dogs!!

Walk away from these people, they are not breeders, they are puppy farmers:mad:

Not only should she walk away, she should report them to the Kennel Club.

rabbit.84

Even puppy farm owners have children. so that wouldnt be a sign of a genuine owner. I never understand people paying loads for cross breeds. My last dog was a cross between a westie and a pug who we got for 40euro. Which was even a bit expensive, but I saw some advertised recently for 300euro!!

lrushe

My gripe with a bitch having anymore than 2 - 3 litters in her life is that there is absolutely no need.
Imo firstly a dog should only ever be bred if they have been shown to be an excellent example of their breed and have something to add to the breed as a whole. If after 2 - 3 litters you haven't gotten out of the breedings what you want ie. dogs more superior than the generation before you should stop trying as it is most likely not going to happen.
Secondly there are already enough dogs in the world, breeding anymore than 2-3 litters from any one bitch is only unnecessarily adding to this.
Giving a bitch at least one heat in between each litter gives her body a better chance of recovering for the last litter, helping make her stronger to care for any subsequent litters.

boomerang

I ovulate every month. Doesn't mean I should get pregnant twelve times a year.

Anyways, you cannot compare the reproductive cycle of the domestic dog to her wild cousins. First of all, afaik in social groups of wild canids, only the alpha female will be mated. And she doesn't come in season twice a year.

Domestic cats don't have a menopause. They can have two litters of kittens a year right up into their teens. Does this mean it's in their best interest? No. There's nothing "natural" about the reproductive cycles of domesticated animals. A lot of it is down to us tweaking them genetically for our own benefit.

Pregnancy and nursing take a huge toll on the bitch. No way would I breed a bitch at every heat.

OP, these people are in it for the money. You can be sure it wasn't an accidental mating. Please don't part with big bucks for what's essentially a crossbreed. Plenty of really cute little crossbreeds available in the pounds and rescues.

I know you heard kids in the background but that doesn't mean the dogs and pups aren't out in the shed.

kaiser sauze

boomerang wrote: »

I ovulate every month. Doesn't mean I should get pregnant twelve times a year.

:rolleyes:

Who knew! Sped up designer pregnancies available for the highest bidder!

boomerang

You've missed the point. Spectacularly.

kaiser sauze

boomerang wrote: »

You've missed the point. Spectacularly.

Not really, you opened with a poorly thought out point. A woman gets pregnant then ovulation stops until she delivers.

Basic stuff really.

Shanao

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Before I take you up on this, where do you get the "The most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two..."?

Why would one need to breed more than two litters unless they were in it purely for the money? The point of breeding is to breed dogs that have no health issues and are perfect examples of the breed to try and enhance the breed. Two litters of pups are enough to further the dam's line. Not to mention that she should only be bred after two years old, so that's one litter at two and perhaps another at three, then she should be spayed to eliminate the risks of health problems down the line.
There are far too many people out there who think that they should breed their dogs simply because their dog is a purebred and there are not enough responsible people who will keep the bitch secure when she comes into heat. Therefore, we now have the current problem all over the world with rescues full to the brim of unwanted/badly bred dogs. Unfortunately, far too many people have decided that their dog should 'earn their living' by churning out litter after litter every year.
There's no way a bitch would have returned to her full health and condition between having pups and her next heat.

boomerang

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Not really, you opened with a poorly thought out point. A woman gets pregnant then ovulation stops until she delivers.

Basic stuff really.

Seriously, I have a pair of ovaries and a womb, I know how this stuff works.

Just because a dog has the potential to be mated at every season doesn't mean she should. Saying that it's as nature intended is a non-argument. Are wisdom teeth as nature intended? The appendix? Cancer, even? Nature ain't perfect.

I don't buy the comparison to wild dogs, either. Wild dogs aren't mated every time they're in oestrus. And they only come in season once a year.

kaiser sauze

Shanao wrote: »

My advice- walk away. The most litters a bitch should have in her entire life is two, there is no way in hell she could have been strong enough to have two litters within that amount of time. To be honest, sounds like a puppy farmer to me. Responsible breeders wont breed a bitch more than once year. And I know the idea of a shih tzu/ bichon frise might sound like a good idea, but please consider one or the other. The only people you will get these crossbreeds from are puppy farmers; these dogs are essentially mongrels and not actually worth the money these breeders want for them. They can suffer from the health issues that both breeds are prone, leading to a bigger risk of health problems.

I would look for a good, responsible breeder- I recently went to look at pups and spent an hour and a half with the breeder who asked me as many questions as I asked her. The bitch was two and a half and had never been bred before, and they are planning on breeding her once more, then getting her spayed. These are the kind of breeders that are unfortunately a minority in Ireland, but you should be able to find good breeders of both shih tzus and bichons out there and I would reccommend that you search one of them out. You may pay more for a purebred from a good breeder, but a healthy pup from good lines means less problems and less vet visits.

Hope this helps you.

To the second highlighted part...how can you accept that and verify it?

Simple answer, you can't.

Shanao wrote: »

Why would one need to breed more than two litters unless they were in it purely for the money?

There are many reasons why breeders would breed more than twice, they might try a bitch with several different dogs before they get a 'great' litter.

They have a waiting list.

They want to replace their own line and/or pets.

This is not an exhaustive list, try thinking from a breeders' perspective, and outside your bubble.

Shanao wrote: »

The point of breeding is to breed dogs that have no health issues and are perfect examples of the breed to try and enhance the breed.

Agreed.

Shanao wrote: »

Two litters of pups are enough to further the dam's line.

Once again you state something with no basis for it.

It is this myopic, ill judged, ill thought-out, and baseless thinking that really annoys me. You are no authority on how many litters a breeder can have, so I protest it. What are you going to do?

I have a 12 year old bitch; her daughter, 6; and her daughter, nearly 3.

The 12 year old had 3 litters, the last of which included my 6 year old.

My 6 (BSG ref, ftw!) has had 3 litters and I was considering breeding her for her fourth and final time until she had a bad seizure only a couple of weeks ago and is now on epephrin for the rest of her life.

Why was I going to breed her for the fourth time? It was because her and another dog, from the other end of the country, produced stunning pups and I had resisted numerous requests from people on my waiting list to breed her again. However, before her seizure, I had changed my mind and had decided to go ahead for the fourth and final time.

The reason was simple, she was still in great condition and during a check-up with my vet he could give me no medical reason to not breed her again. He was more than happy to endorse me going ahead with it. If he had uttered the word "but" in any part of his advice, it would not have even been considered.

None of this matters anymore now.

My almost 3 year old has had two litters, and I currently have no plans to breed her for her next two heats at least.

I suppose you are going to type up some nonsense post and pontificate to me that I am some cruel inhumane monster for even having thought about breeding her for a fourth time, but you can do that all you want as it is quite clear you haven't an iota of what you're talking about.

Shanao wrote: »

There are far too many people out there who think that they should breed their dogs simply because their dog is a purebred and there are not enough responsible people who will keep the bitch secure when she comes into heat. Therefore, we now have the current problem all over the world with rescues full to the brim of unwanted/badly bred dogs. Unfortunately, far too many people have decided that their dog should 'earn their living' by churning out litter after litter every year.

There's some yadda-yadda in here, but, in the main, I agree.

Shanao wrote: »

There's no way a bitch would have returned to her full health and condition between having pups and her next heat.

That is just nonsense, a good breeder will judge the condition of the animal between her pregnancy and her next heat. Certain bitches recover quicker than others and you stating this as an absolute is just more sweeping statement tripe.

---

I have broken your two litter rule, twice; I will be breaking it again in about 14 months. Notice how I call it your rule? That's right, because it is a non-existent rule.

kaiser sauze

boomerang wrote: »

Seriously, I have a pair of ovaries and a womb, I know how this stuff works.

Just because a dog has the potential to be mated at every season doesn't mean she should. Saying that it's as nature intended is a non-argument. Are wisdom teeth as nature intended? The appendix? Cancer, even? Nature ain't perfect.

I don't buy the comparison to wild dogs, either. Wild dogs aren't mated every time they're in oestrus. And they only come in season once a year.

Where did I advocate mating at every heat?

If you want to dismiss nature, fine; the reality is that it is there and the possibility exists.

I used wild dogs as it was a simple analogy, the technicalities are irrelevant.

Anything else you want to plant in my mouth?

boomerang

I honestly couldn't be bothered explaining again why your simple analogy is erroneous. Anyway it's clearly bad for your blood pressure.

If you assume that you have far superior judgement to every one else here despite the fact you have no idea who you're talking to, then I suggest you walk away from this forum. We're all here to discuss, to share ideas and experiences, and, to learn. If you feel you've nothing to learn here and you're closed to other points of view, then you've no business here.

By the way, I would have thought that someone superior to a weasel keyboard warrior would have known that a thoroughbred is a type of horse.

kaiser sauze

boomerang wrote: »

I honestly couldn't be bothered explaining again why your simple analogy is erroneous. Anyway it's clearly bad for your blood pressure.

If you assume that you have far superior judgement to every one else here despite the fact you have no idea who you're talking to, then I suggest you walk away from this forum. We're all here to discuss, to share ideas and experiences, and, to learn. If you feel you've nothing to learn here and you're closed to other points of view, then you've no business here.

By the way, I would have thought that someone superior to a weasel keyboard warrior would have known that a thoroughbred is a type of horse.

Good, because I am tired of breaking up the bilge that you spout. Really silly stuff like stating that you wouldn't dream of getting pregnant 12 times a year. :rolleyes:

So I use the horse term for dogs, big deal. Purebred doesn't have the same ring to me; when I am talking to anyone I deal with, they don't start looking around for horses.

If you have an issue with me tearing up someone's small-minded opinion, there is nothing to stop you from not reading it.

Jinxi

I hate the arguments people out forward for breeding their pure breds. Every owner thinks that their dog is a wonderful secimen of the breed(arrogent). All pure breeds have some genetic health issues although some have more than others. There is one reason people put their dogs through a pregnancy(which you all agree diminishs their health for a time-otherwise why not breed in sucessive heats) and thats to make money. Kaiser, I hate to judge, but by your own admission your dogs have some form of seizures in their genentic history and yet you still choose to breed them? Isn;t that against best breeding standards.

My advise to the OP is, for pities sake, there are so many dogs out there that need good homes. I know some people hate the idea of getting a dog with an unknown background froma pound(unfortuatly this opinion exists) but there are people who are giving away many types of pups free too.
Mongrels are, in general, smarter and healthier. To quote someone earlier, Dogs are dogs, simples
ALSO, for arguemnts sake, this breeder may not be a puppy farmer. They may be uneducated in what is accepable, or they may have had a breeding accident. Too quick to jump to comclusion. If worried call the ispca and let them deal with it

kaiser sauze

Jinxi wrote: »

I hate the arguments people out forward for breeding their pure breds. Every owner thinks that their dog is a wonderful secimen of the breed(arrogent). All pure breeds have some genetic health issues although some have more than others. There is one reason people put their dogs through a pregnancy(which you all agree diminishs their health for a time-otherwise why not breed in sucessive heats) and thats to make money. Kaiser, I hate to judge, but by your own admission your dogs have some form of seizures in their genentic history and yet you still choose to breed them? Isn;t that against best breeding standards.

My advise to the OP is, for pities sake, there are so many dogs out there that need good homes. I know some people hate the idea of getting a dog with an unknown background froma pound(unfortuatly this opinion exists) but there are people who are giving away many types of pups free too.
Mongrels are, in general, smarter and healthier. To quote someone earlier, Dogs are dogs, simples
ALSO, for arguemnts sake, this breeder may not be a puppy farmer. They may be uneducated in what is accepable, or they may have had a breeding accident. Too quick to jump to comclusion. If worried call the ispca and let them deal with it

Wow!

Here we go again, more words inserted in my mouth. This is getting tiresome.

My six year old had a seizure and it was her first one. Ever. It was a severe one and she nearly died. She will not be bred again. Clear?

My 12 year old and 3 year old, nor any of my dogs, have ever had a seizure and my vet has assured me that just because one has it, not all will develop it. It has genetic traits, but blood tests for the others are negative.

To address your point about making money, I don't make money on my breeding. I have stated this before on this forum.

Your point about mongrels is nonsense, and I am not the only one who will be of that belief.

Anything else?

Jinxi

When I wrote my post(and i thought twice about it) I was aware that people who breed pure bred dogs would have issues with it. However, just because people continue to justify their behaviours doesn't mean I cant object or that they are correct.
From reading your post(I apologise if you feel like i put words in your mouth, I really didn't intend to) I was under the impression that although you were not going to breed the dog who had the seizure, the other dogs you were intending to breed(not for money apparently) were desendants of the genetically flawed(but wonderful I am sure) bitch.

seamus

Fun thread. I've moved it to the pre-mod area to chill it off a bit.

kaiser sauze, you'll only get this warning once: Relax, tone down your posts. If you feel the need to respond with abuse, then stand up, walk away and watch TV for a while.

There's no reason to get angry. It's a discussion, not an assassination. You can make your points civilly and still win the debate.

lrushe

Jinxi wrote: »

Mongrels are, in general, smarter

Sorry couldn't disagree more, there is absolutely no difference in intellect between mongrels and purebreeds.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

My six year old had a seizure and it was her first one. Ever. It was a severe one and she nearly died.

Kaiser, did you find out what cause the seizure, whether it was genetic or not?
If it was genetic have the owners of the pups from this bitches litters been contacted and notified so they can be on the lookout for symptoms in their dogs? And also the breeder of your bitch as they most likely have siblings of your bitch.
Have you endorsed all of the pups from this bitches litters so they will not be bred from?
The above are just questions, not judgements.

dollydishmop

kaiser sauze wrote: »

My six year old had a seizure and it was her first one. Ever. It was a severe one and she nearly died. She will not be bred again. Clear?

Delighted to hear it.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

My 12 year old and 3 year old, nor any of my dogs, have ever had a seizure and my vet has assured me that just because one has it, not all will develop it. It has genetic traits, but blood tests for the others are negative.

All veterinary assurances aside, one of your breeding bitches had a seizure...which maybe the onset of idiopathic epilepsy, or it may not. Your vet is not in a position to make a definite judgement either way, only time will tell, right now, for that bitch, it is merely a waiting game for both of you.
Any tests he can offer you will not diagnose epilepsy, they will only serve to rule out other causes of seizures, eg poisoning, liver disease, brain tumour etc
When one of my dogs developed idiopathic epilepsy, her first two seizures were 18 months apart...some epileptic dogs have had longer intervals between their early seizures...
And if your vet led you to believe that he can assess the likelihood of your other dogs having seizures in the future, via blood test, then either he is taking you for a ride, or he needs to go back to vet school.
At present canine epilepsy cannot be positively diagnosed by blood test.

As such, considering your 3yo bitch is the daughter of the 6yo who had the seizure, I presume you will not be breeding from the 3yo any more either. In my books, as both a former IKC breeder and someone who has experience with idiopathic epilepsy (not in my breeding line thank DoG), getting all three dogs spayed now is, in my books, the only responsible thing to do. Cut that line dead,and start again. Truly, canine epilepsy is not something to trifle with, even if your vet won't diagnose on the strength of one seizure - and he's right not to do so. But neither can he rule it out at this point in time.
Unless they are of some ultra rare breed, whereby breeding dogs, with a family history of seizure, albeit currently only one episode, is something which would need to be very heavily weighed-up in the interests of the breed in question, then it is my opinion that they should no longer be bred from.
I also sincerely hope that you have contacted all the owners of the three litters of pups produced by the 6yo to notify them of their dam's seizure. Being a responsible breeder, I'm sure you have.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I have a 12 year old bitch; her daughter, 6; and her daughter, nearly 3.

The 12 year old had 3 litters, the last of which included my 6 year old.

My 6 has had 3 litters and I was considering breeding her for her fourth and final time until she had a bad seizure only a couple of weeks ago and is now on epephrin for the rest of her life.

[...]

My almost 3 year old has had two litters, and I currently have no plans to breed her for her next two heats at least.

Actually, I just re-read this section....I'm not familiar with the drug 'epephrin'...by chance, do you mean 'epiphen' (Phenobarbitol)?

Epiphen is the normal 'starter' drug for canine epilepsy. But I would be extremely cautious of a vet who (a) won't definitely diagnose canine eplepsy, but (b) would also put the dog on epiphen on the strength of just one seizure, even if the single seizure was a grand mal.
It is more normal for the vet to apply 'watchful waiting', and certainly not be too hasty to prescribe anti-seizure drugs. Its more normal to hold off with medication until the seizure intervals are down to monthly / fortnightly episodes.
If she is on epiphen (or any other phenobarb derived medication) I hope he also told you she'll need 6-monthly blood tests to check her liver function too. Phenobarb plays merry hell with their livers.

I'm not a vet, but I do have fairly extensive experience with canine epilepsy.
I hope for all your sakes that it was just a one-off, but I strongly encourage you to get a second opinion with regards to whether your 6yo bitch needs to be on medication for it right now. Best of luck with, seizures in dogs is no laughing matter

And I know I'm repeating myself, but I really don't think you should consider breeding from the 3yo until you have a definite answer on the 6yo status with regards to epilepsy...which may take a few years before you can be more sure she won't have further seizures. I just don't think its worth the risk if there's even a slightest question mark over that particular bloodline.

Just my opinion, drawn on from my own experience with both epilepsy and breeding, take it or leave it

kaiser sauze

It feels like an assassination, not of me personally, but of breeders.

It is easy to be self-righteous, and self-indulgent, when writing posts that are taking what looks like, to the casual observer, as being on the "PETA stance".

Direct from IKC website:

I shall not mate from any bitch kept by me (a) under one year of age, (b) or over eight years of age, (c) for not more than six litters, (d) or dogs over the age of twelve years. Permission must be sought and granted by the Irish Kennel Club to exceed these provisions.

I would like to see any of the people who have had a pop at me to point out which one of those provisions I have even come close to breaking?

The IKC certainly do not take the stance that breeding six times is dangerous for a bitch, I had someone try to tell me that twice was all I was allowed! There are dishonest people in this discussion, and it is not me.

I am correcting the record, on behalf of all reputable breeders.

Shanao

kaiser sauze wrote: »

To the second highlighted part...how can you accept that and verify it?

Simple answer, you can't.

Actually I can because I personally know the breeder. And to be perfectly honest with you, I find it quite amusing that you get so up in arms over someone else's opinions. You have yours, I have mine, can we rally together and accept that fact? Never once did I say it is a rule, and my rule, and I rule all of the breeders so a dog can only have two litters!! Perhaps I have a rather biased opinion on it having to deal with dogs being dumped outside my home at least once a month. Perhaps you are a responsible breeder, I dont know, i dont know you or anything about you. But I have dealt with animal welfare and the lack of law and legislation in this country for quite some time and even know I can still find myself horrified by what people do. The fact remains the same; there are too many dogs in this country and far, far too many irresponsible breeders.

As the OP came here looking for advice, I took it upon myself to give her the advice I would give most people. Perhaps you disagree with that, that is fine- that is after all, your opinion. But this are mine and I would rather that you didn't attempt to belittle me for stating it.

I dont want to start yet another argument but I would advise taking a breather before replying; this forum is supposed to be for fun discussion and far too many people are becoming utterly outraged by what 'some stranger on the internet said'.