Public Consultation-NEW Channels Proposed 'RTÉ Two HD Select', 'RTÉjr', 'RTÉ Plus'

Damomanye

It's a public consultation folks:pac:

New RTÉ channels for digital TV, Minister Ryan asks public for their views...

PR issued today..

Communications Minister Eamon Ryan today announced that he is seeking the views of the public on a range of new channels proposed by RTÉ for transmission on digital television. Members of the public will have until the 10th of December 2010 to submit their views.


The switch-on of digital television was announced by the Minister on the 29th of October and will include RTÉ One, RTÉ2, TV3, and TG4. RTÉ has submitted a proposal for additional channels on this free-to-air service. They are:



- RTÉ Two HD Select

- RTÉ News Now

- RTÉjr (channel aimed at preschool children)

- RTÉ Plus (repeat of peaktime RTÉ One content)

- RTÉ Aertel Digital (enhanced digital teletext service)


Announcing the consultation the Minister said, “The analogue signal will be switched off by the end of 2012. Going digital has created the opportunity for RTÉ to expand its public service offering by introducing new television channels to the digital service in 2011. Today we offer the public an opportunity to comment on the proposed new channels. We welcome all views.”

This process will run from today 15th November 2010 and closes on 10th December 2010.

The consultation document is available from the website, http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Broadcasting/


For more information on SAORVIEW, see www.saorview.ie



Ends


The RTÉ DTT service, called Saorview, was launched as a trial service to 90% of the country on 29th October 2010 and currently broadcasts the 4 national Irish TV channels (RTÉ1, RTÉ Two, TV3 and TG4). The DTT network will continue to be built over the next two years and will eventually reach 98% of the population. The new digital network will eventually replace the national analogue terrestrial free-to-air TV service when this closes at the end of 2012.



Section 103 of the Broadcasting Act, 2009 requires the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to carry out a Public Value Test (PVT) on any new channels and services proposed by the public service broadcasters, RTÉ and TG4, and to consult with key stakeholders in this regard.

The consultation document is available on www.dcenr.gov.ie/broadcasting

Proposed Channels


RTÉ Two HD Select
RTÉ Two HD Select will broadcast the current RTÉ Two schedule with live sport, drama and film in HD.



RTÉ News Now
RTÉ News Now provides round-the-clock news coverage, with about eleven live news bulletins per day, as well as the opportunity to catch-up on the most recent news bulletin, to watch RTÉ’s main flagship current affairs programmes, and to catch-up on these where relevant.



RTÉjr
RTÉjr provides programming for children aged 6 years and younger



RTÉ Plus
The initial phase of this service is RTÉ One with a one hour delay and it will be an exact replica of the primary mixed-genre service.



RTÉ Aertel Digital
This service uses new DTT set-top box technology to overcome the limitations of analogue technology. The service provides short-form, up-to-date information and news on a range of subjects.

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No sign of the Film channel ..or Oireachtas TV which is interesting
I think RTE Plus is a waste of channel space..

Rick_

RTÉ TWO HD Select - What a crap name. Just call it RTÉ 2 HD and show HD when available.

RTÉ Jr - Will this mean less childrens programming on RTÉ TWO during the day? What will they fill this time with? New programming or repeated prime time stuff, leaving the teen stuff from say 4pm-7pm?

RTÉ Plus - Why not just call it RTÉ 1+1 and stop fannying about. Typical bloody RTÉ, have to make everything so simple so bloody difficult. :rolleyes: OK, it plans to eventually have more than just a +1 schedule, but with so muh space, (see below) why not have a permanent +1?

RTÉ TWO HD will be at 6.3MBps in 1440x1080i, while the SD channels will be at 2.2MBps or less, and at 544x576. They have 2 multiplexes with a combined space of 46MB, so what will the rest of th espace be used for?

RTÉ ONE - 2.2MB
RTÉ TWO - 6.3MB
TV 3 - - 2.2MB
TG 4 - 2.2MB
RTÉ NEWS NOW - 2.2MB
RTÉ+ / RTÉ Jr - 2.2MB
RTÉ Digital Aertel - 1MB

That's 18.3MB on a 23MB MUX. So, what's the rest of the space being used for, and what will they do on the second transponder with a futher 23MB of free space? Can't they just up the resolution and bit rate of the other channels so they won't look like an almighty mess?

Pyro Boy

Paddy C wrote: »

RTÉ TWO HD Select - What a crap name. Just call it RTÉ 2 HD and show HD when available.


RTÉ Plus - Why not just call it RTÉ 1+1 and stop fannying about. Typical bloody RTÉ, have to make everything so simple so bloody difficult. :rolleyes:

Both of those names are a "working title" so I think they will change the names of the channels at the launch.

The Cush

Each mux has a capacity of 24.1 Mbps.

3e is included in the sample Mux 1 on page 37 but no guarantee they'll be there I'd guess.

mike65

So then still no Oireachtas channel so we can keep an eye on them?

mjsmyth

At the moment I can see a use for a +1 channel, but as PVRs become more and more prevalent, I think their lifespan will be short.

It is a pity that the film channel is not listed. If it is purely for financial reasons, then I can understand that also. If you are going to do a film channel, you need to do it right. That means no breaks during movies, that means less advertising time to be sold.

I for one won't miss the Dail channel. I get enough comedy/drama in my own life without having to watch well paid eejits do a stand up routine in Dail Eireann.

mike65

In a democracy a channel that gives live uninterupted coverage of the elected representatives chamber and committees should be manditory.

The Cush

From the consultation

the legislation provides for RTÉ to be licensed for sufficient spectrum for 1 multiplex with an option for a second multiplex, subject to capacity requirements.

RTÉ considers that the coverage of the second multiplex may be less, due to the frequencies used.

The current DTT planning is based on the first PSB MUX launching in May 2011 with the option of a second PSB MUX being launched thereafter.

RTÉNL have confirmed that the coverage of the second PSB multiplex can be more or less matched to the first PSB multiplex. On a site by site basis there are some unavoidable, but very slight differences, because of the different frequencies used by the different multiplexes.

Machinehead

Following up on my earlier post on "Saorview content speculation" - RTÉNL HD video now been removed & test card now in place. Also lost the HDVT tag & broadcasting in SD.

Damomanye

Machinehead wrote: »

Following up on my earlier post on "Saorview content speculation" - RTÉNL HD video now removed & test card now in place. Also channel renamed RTL.

I cant pick it up anymore following retune, is the channel flagged now or what

EDIT:

Another retune, its back RTENL no more HD video

speedboatchase

RTE Two HD Select implies that only selected programmes are available, and that it's not showing the same shows at the same time as RTE Two - just call it RTE Two HD

Pat Gleeson

Damomanye wrote: »

Another retune, its back RTENL no more HD video

Same here - Woodcock Hill

I've 2 comments no make that 3
Why the hell do we need a consultation,just launch them already.
Theres room on the one mux for all those channels,the radio AND an oireachtas channel-so LAUNCH the thing already.

Thirdly :

RTÉ considers that the coverage of the second multiplex may be less, due to the frequencies used.

If they used ch39 at mt leinster,their coverage would increase exponentially in wexford and south wicklow.

Apogee

Some interesting snippets:



RTÉ2 HD May 2011


RTE2 HD May 2012

The Cush

speedboatchase wrote: »

RTE Two HD Select implies that only selected programmes are available, and that it's not showing the same shows at the same time as RTE Two - just call it RTE Two HD

Discussed here previously - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056021365 (and here and here and here etc., etc.)

RTÉ Two HD Select is only a working title. Only one version will be available on DTT - certain programmes will be full HD others incl ads will be upscaled.

From the consultation

In particular, RTÉ proposes to provide a technologically improved version of the existing RTÉ Two service as a single linear digital TV channel. A percentage of the programming will be transmitted in high definition (HD) format and the remainder of the programmes produced in standard definition (SD) will be ’up-converted’ to high definition.

Damomanye

Judging by that early info, RTE News output will not be in HD (RTE News on Two), which is a pity

The Cush

Damomanye wrote: »

Judging by that early info, RTE News output will not be in HD (RTE News on Two), which is a pity

The HD studio infrastructure upgrade is part of RTÉ's Project 2025

Damomanye

A look at the HD Content they propose to carry from Spring 2011 on the RTÉ Two HD Select, from the consultation document.

At launch, the content mix will reflect the RTÉ Two programming that is currently available in HD. T

hese will typically be high impact programmes in genres that particularly benefit from HD format, specifically sport, acquired dramas and films.

Sport is a cornerstone of the schedule on RTÉ Two. The following is an indicative list of the sports it is proposed to broadcast in HD:
1. Major GAA matches from the Championship
2. Euro 2012 soccer qualifiers (three home and three away games)
3. Autumn Rugby Internationals (two in 2011, one deferred and one live)
4. Rugby World Cup (13 live games)
5. Magners League (c. 20 matches)
6. Champions’ League
4. All current US series on the main networks are being transmitted in the United States in HD, resulting in the ready availability of HD versions of acquired series.

It is envisaged that most of RTÉ Two’s key acquired dramas will be transmitted in HD including Desperate Housewives, Grey's Anatomy, CSI, CSI Miami, CSI New York, Criminal Minds, The Good Wife and Nurse Jackie.

This looks good. looking forward to seeing sport in HD.

senordingdong

How can RTE afford this at the moment?

weehamster

Ok. My turn.
RTE 2 Select - Obviously this won't be a separate channel and will be RTE 2 switching between SD and HD. But I don't see why they can't do the same with RTE 1. Now of course both RTE 1 & 2 can't show a HD programme at the same time but they should be able to alternate between each other. No?

RTE+ - This should NOT be a time shift channel. That is what recording devices are for and is a waste of bandwidth in my opinion. I believe RTE+ should be like SKY2. They should show the same current programming of both RTE1 & 2, but show them at different schedule. Throw in RTE's archives and this will appear to look like a separate instead of a time-shift channel. RTE+ also gives RTE the ability to show more than one game live. For example 2 Champions league game can be showed on RTE 2 and RTE+. The same can happen for other major sporting events like the World Cup or even GAA.

RTE News Now - The current format annoys me. I'll be lucky to watch it more that 2 times a day. It is far too repetitive. Instead, RTE should copy the Euronews format. No newscasters, just take the video feed from the likes of Reuters and AP, edit it to a certain time, stick a voice-over on it and repeat every 30 min. It works off a queuing systems so when a fresh piece of news comes in, it goes to the top of the cue. Improve the info on the side bar to include small pictures. For example weather maps, satellite photos, (use Met Eireann web site). Traffic, RAI News 24 use to show alternating live traffic cam feeds in their side bar. DCC or AA Roadwatch could have live traffic/travel alerts. Also it should have 2 scrolling ticker-tape feeds on the bottom instead a 1 huge one.

RTE Jr - No brainier there. But when the Analogue switch off happens, they should stop showing kids programmes on RTE 2 as your just doubling up.

I just wish to end with my anger :mad: with RTE choice to still run with DVB-T instead of DVB-T2. This is extraordinary short sighted and has cost them about 30% capacity which could have given both RTE 1&2 the ability to go HD and the same time or have a separate RTE+ and RTE Jr channels.

The Cush

senordingdong wrote: »

How can RTE afford this at the moment?

Which? DTT or Project 2025?

The Cush

weehamster wrote: »

Ok. My turn.
RTE 2 Select - Obviously this won't be a separate channel and will be RTE 2 switching between SD and HD. But I don't see why they can't do the same with RTE 1. Now of course both RTE 1 & 2 can't show a HD programme at the same time but they should be able to alternate between each other. No?

They won't be switching between SD and HD - RTÉ 2 HD will be 1080i HD and up-converted SD material (see my post #15 on the previous page for references).

senordingdong

The Cush wrote: »

Which? DTT or Project 2025?

Either or.

marclt

I do love that phrase they use... 'Up-Converted' - I think 'up-scaled' is the commonly used term.

Actually, on reading the document, it looks like a rush job. 3 weeks for a public consultation??? Someone must have read the small print and realised that they needed to get views on their plans..

There is nothing new or imaginative in what is on offer here, so why consult on it? RTE Digital Aertel - the format already exists - who is to object? It could be done a lot better - look at the new Sky Text. But even if people suggest a better way, what is the likelihood of it being changed.

On RTE2, post 2012, there should be no need to show any childrens programmes as digital switchover will have taken place or be close to it. Unless, maybe where any of the additional RTE channels are not carried on Sky or cable - then there is a reason for duplicity.

I do hope the May 2011 and May 2012 schedule isn't typical - because the Eurovision show is a once a year event. In reality, and especially in the summer, there will be very little original HD content showing on RTE2, especialy if the studios aren't upgraded.

I agree on the RAI suggestion above, information screens with audio from one of the many RTE radio channels combined with scrolling text and images from webcams across the country could fill slots in parts of the schedule. Easily done, over IP from location back to Montrose.

The Cush

senordingdong wrote: »

How can RTE afford this at the moment?

senordingdong wrote: »

Either or.

I guess they can't but DTT has to happen by end of 2012, as per an EU recommendation many years ago. It should have launched 10 years ago, now it has to be done in two years. The benefit to the state will be the financial gain from the sale to mobile operators of released TV spectrum.

The money for Project 2025 will come from the sale of part of the RTÉ Campus.

The Cush

marclt wrote: »

I do hope the May 2011 and May 2012 schedule isn't typical - because the Eurovision show is a once a year event. In reality, and especially in the summer, there will be very little original HD content showing on RTE2, especialy if the studios aren't upgraded.

Until the new HD playout facilty is installed only live "pass-through" programming will be available as as interim measure.

According to the August tender once the new HD facility is installed pre-recorded HD material will be available (TV series, movies etc.), probably some time next year.

The company recently invested in the latest Sony HD cameras and a tender is under way to begin a migration to a tapeless production environment, but transmitting HD-recorded material or studio-based content will be impossible until a complete HD upgrade takes place.

The reality is a full-blown RTÉ HD service will only come with the completion of the purpose-built building planned for the Donnybrook site. Construction is not expected to begin before 2012.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1105/1224282715859.html

Machinehead

Can anyone suggest as to why RTÉNL's new HD flagged channel (no service) is showing up on scan (channel 800) as encrypted if no pay DTT services have actually signed up for the roll out.

watty

to stop the public getting hooked on Engineering tests?

STB

weehamster wrote: »

I just wish to end with my anger :mad: with RTE choice to still run with DVB-T instead of DVB-T2. This is extraordinary short sighted and has cost them about 30% capacity which could have given both RTE 1&2 the ability to go HD and the same time or have a separate RTE+ and RTE Jr channels.

RTE are not confined to 1 mux.

Sponge Bob

Yeah, let them use a second mux from the commercial bouquet until the full 6 muxes are 'available' in 2 years time. No point finishing the engineering on the final 2 muxes absent a commercial deal. 4 muxes are installed and tested now on themain transmitters and at least _some_ relays.

rlogue

This is all bull****. There was no consultation when Tara TV was switched off and replaced with nothing.

Kensington

marclt wrote:

There is nothing new or imaginative in what is on offer here, so why consult on it? RTE Digital Aertel - the format already exists - who is to object? It could be done a lot better - look at the new Sky Text. But even if people suggest a better way, what is the likelihood of it being changed.

Well I imagine this is precisely what the consultation is for. Let them know what is and isn't working for you. You'd be surprised what does get taken on board.

rlogue wrote: »

This is all bull****. There was no consultation when Tara TV was switched off and replaced with nothing.

Would you be willing to pay a subscription to a Tara TV type service? Genuinely now, would you?

byte

The only issue I have with the proposed channels, is RTE Plus. Is there really a need for a timeshift of RTE1? Especially considering the lack of space to waste on timeshift channels on DTT.

If the channel was to launch, maybe have the better programmes from both RTE1 and 2.

rlogue

Kensington wrote: »

Well I imagine this is precisely what the consultation is for. Let them know what is and isn't working for you. You'd be surprised what does get taken on board.


Would you be willing to pay a subscription to a Tara TV type service? Genuinely now, would you?

I would be willing to pay the full Irish TV licence to get all the Irish terrestrials by satellite. Still cheaper than the cheapest Sky sub and the money would go directly to Irish broadcasters.

icdg

byte wrote: »

The only issue I have with the proposed channels, is RTE Plus. Is there really a need for a timeshift of RTE1? Especially considering the lack of space to waste on timeshift channels on DTT.

If the channel was to launch, maybe have the better programmes from both RTE1 and 2.

According to the document, the idea is that RTÉ Plus would only be RTÉ One+1 during "Phase 1" which would last for one year. It would then effectively become RTÉ Three and offer alternative sport programmes during weekend afternoons and broadcast some of the US programmes RTÉ currently broadcasts late at night during the evening peak. It appears RTÉ are STILL adverse to use the Red Button (why???) and intend to use a combination of RTÉ Plus and RTÉ News Now to broadcast what other broadcasters use the red button for.

Anyway, the long-term RTÉ Plus is a good idea, but I'm skeptical as to whether that development will happen. Note also that RTÉjr and RTÉ Plus are proposed to be effectively one channel with two LCNs (as for example, CBBC and BBC Three also effectively are) so one cannot broadcast while the other is on air.

Other bits and bobs in the document:
- No RTÉ Two SD on DTT. Apparently SD viewers will be able to view the HD content in SD???? Now someone explain to me why that isn't the case with the HD channels other broadcasters are offering???
-RTÉjr will basically repeat itself from 12noon until 7pm (when RTÉ Plus takes over its frequency). It won't broadcast at weekends initially.
-RTÉ planning to add 8am and 9am news summaries to RTÉ One (odd that they should use a DTT proposal to announce this).
-After May 2012, RTÉ Two will get some of its daytime hours back (after losing them in 1997 to the Den) and will schedule some lifestyle programmes and imports in this slot between 11am-2pm. Now if everyone will have access to RTÉjr by then, why don't they give RTÉ Two back the whole morning. Or give it to TRTÉ, which apparently is deemed not worthy of its own channel?

I say "will" above but of course these are just plans, subject of course to political approval and perhaps more importantly financial constraints and no guarentee that any of it will happen. If it does happen, it will of course make Saorview a lot more attractive (and more sellable to a skeptical public) than a four channel service would have been and for that reason I don't think RTÉ will much problem getting the plans approved. Subject to the Budget/IMF/Euro-bailout not taking a big hacksaw to the RTÉ budget (I don't think it will, because the licence fee is meant to be ringfenced for RTÉ/TG4/S&V, but here is not the place for Politics).

Tom Slick

icdg wrote: »

- No RTÉ Two SD on DTT. Apparently SD viewers will be able to view the HD content in SD???? Now someone explain to me why that isn't the case with the HD channels other broadcasters are offering???

Because the others (that I know of) use MPEG2 for SD & MPEG4 for HD?

Minstrel27

icdg wrote: »

It appears RTÉ are STILL adverse to use the Red Button (why???)

Good. I am not a fan of red button services myself.

icdg

Tom Slick wrote: »

Because the others (that I know of) use MPEG2 for SD & MPEG4 for HD?

That would sound about right.

Sponge Bob

Where are we putting our 'treaty obligation' BBC channels minister ????

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where are we putting our 'treaty obligation' BBC channels minister ????

That plan ended with the commercial DTT process.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where are we putting our 'treaty obligation' BBC channels minister ????

RTE told the Oireachtas we would have to get Freesat

There is no "treaty obligation" Free BBC.

senordingdong

The Cush wrote: »

I guess they can't but DTT has to happen by end of 2012, as per an EU recommendation many years ago. It should have launched 10 years ago, now it has to be done in two years. The benefit to the state will be the financial gain from the sale to mobile operators of released TV spectrum.

The money for Project 2025 will come from the sale of part of the RTÉ Campus.

In fairness, the EU made similar statments about broadband but this country is still lagging behind.

The Cush

senordingdong wrote: »

In fairness, the EU made similar statments about broadband but this country is still lagging behind.

Most EU countries will have ASO'd by the end of 2012 bar maybe Poland and Romania. The released spectrum is to be auctioned by Comreg next year and be available for mobile use by early 2013.

watty

We are lagging. Incorrect figures have been supplied to EU.
We were 10 years behind on DSL unbundling.

The 800MHz sell off will never provide Broadband if sold for Mobile.

The EU is expecting people, YEARS ago to start FTTC and FTTH for Broadband. Not 3G/HSPA or LTE on 800MHz. Those are not regarded as Broadband except by Irish Government.

STB

icdg wrote: »

According to the document, the idea is that RTÉ Plus would only be RTÉ One+1 during "Phase 1" which would last for one year. It would then effectively become RTÉ Three and offer alternative sport programmes during weekend afternoons and broadcast some of the US programmes RTÉ currently broadcasts late at night during the evening peak. It appears RTÉ are STILL adverse to use the Red Button (why???) and intend to use a combination of RTÉ Plus and RTÉ News Now to broadcast what other broadcasters use the red button for.

Content. Money. Resources.

Whether they use a red button or not (and broadcast as an extra station clearly in the mux) it all comes down to the same problem. Bandwidth. It is highly likely that the second mux will be required. What you are proposing just means more stations to run in my view.

radiospan

Tom Slick wrote: »

Because the others (that I know of) use MPEG2 for SD & MPEG4 for HD?

Yeah I think that's pretty much it.

There will be no Saorview-licensed equipment that will be able to decode SD and not HD. They'll all decode the HD channel, so no need to waste bandwidth on an SD version.

(Even now, are there many TV's or STB's out there that can do MPEG4 but not HD?)

watty

Neotion CAM, Sagem Picnic and a couple of other boxes on eBay sold as "compatible with Irish TV". RTE is actually contacting eBay sellers that make any such claim on an MPEG4 non-HD box or that even claim "Saorview" when there is no certification.

STB

watty wrote: »

Neotion CAM, Sagem Picnic and a couple of other boxes on eBay sold as "compatible with Irish TV". RTE is actually contacting eBay sellers that make any such claim on an MPEG4 non-HD box or that even claim "Saorview" when there is no certification.

Good! Regardless of certification. There are 2 particular boxes that I keep seeing

1. Sky Picnic Box (Sagem IDT 81)
2. Philex Skyline (sometime no name black box) priced up at €65 by a COrk based ebayer. BUT in this particular case it is a guy mass selling these boxes, originally as Irish DTT Box and lately saying Saorview Irish DTT Box.

Both only have the capability to process SD MPEG4 (HP@L3). They cant do HD stations and should not be sold here.

loyatemu

none of the above - seriously this is all just an attempt by RTE to bolster its position in the face of likely cutbacks.

If commercial operators don't think additional channels are viable over DTT how are RTE planning to finance them - license fee increases? Or will they just be running endless repeats? The last thing we need at this juncture is an expanded RTE - its already ridiculously bloated and self-serving.

watty

STB wrote: »

Good!

...

2. Philex Skyline (sometime no name black box) priced up at €65 by a COrk based ebayer. BUT in this particular case it is a guy mass selling these boxes, originally as Irish DTT Box and lately saying Saorview Irish DTT Box.

Both only have the capability to process SD MPEG4 (HP@L3). They cant do HD stations and should not be sold here.

That's the puppy... If he was in China. But RTE know where Cork is and who he is. If it's the same guy, some of the listings already pulled.

scath

BTW guys, some of you may like to give your feedback regarding the proposals to RTE. But remember that its more useful if you contact them regarding same to remember that while a consultation is open they are not meant to get involved in same. The public needs to give their own views independently to the Dept. These will be sifted through. When the consultation has closed, then its the appropriate time to give views directly and perhaps receive a reply as to why such approach is taken. It wouldn't be balanced were they to engage during the consultation as could devalue the consultation and be perceived to be biasing the outcome of the consultation.