Slight problem with Citroen C5 1.6 HDI Series II

THE LINK WALSH

Ive a 2005 C5 series II 1.6HDI,its running rough ticking over especially when i start it cold in the morning and evening,a fella i know plugged one of these cheap diagnostic machines into it and told me it was a rail oil pressure fault and that changing the rail oil pressure sensor would fix the problem,a new is €43 from the main dealer,i havent fitted this yet but Ill have to do something with it soon,was half thinking about dropping it into main dealer altogether incase its something else thats wrong.

What do you fellas reckon?,change the rail oil pressure sensor and hope for the best or give it to the main dealer and just pay more??,ive heard many scary stories about these 1.6 HDI engines,theres 103 thousand kms on the car.

Wheelnut

Don't do what your friend says anyway, because there is no such thing as a rail oil pressure sensor!

There is a common fuel rail which has a pressure sensor but in view of your friend's incompetence I would leave that alone too.

These engines can last a long time if they get regular attention from a competent mechanic, it doesn't have to be a dealer. You could have dirty injectors but they're a bitch to get out of that engine so you will need somebody with the right tool.

If there is no "fault light" showing on the dash the problem has to be something that has no feedback to the ECU. That could rule out all sensors and rule in the injectors or the air filter. Get proper advice.

PARKHEAD67

THE LINK WALSH wrote: »

Ive a 2005 C5 series II 1.6HDI,its running rough ticking over especially when i start it cold in the morning and evening,a fella i know plugged one of these cheap diagnostic machines into it and told me it was a rail oil pressure fault and that changing the rail oil pressure sensor would fix the problem,a new is €43 from the main dealer,i havent fitted this yet but Ill have to do something with it soon,was half thinking about dropping it into main dealer altogether incase its something else thats wrong.

What do you fellas reckon?,change the rail oil pressure sensor and hope for the best or give it to the main dealer and just pay more??,ive heard many scary stories about these 1.6 HDI engines,theres 103 thousand kms on the car.

Never buy citroen or anything French.Thats what I was always told. Had a renault-trouble.Citroen are bad news.

delly

While thats a bit of a sweeping statement, I don't think thats going to help the OP, unless of course you happen to have a DeLorean handy in order to turn back time?

Row

As wheelnut has said there is no such thing as a rail oil pressure sensor.
But there is a High pressure common rail sensor and there is an oil pressure sensor.
If you pick up the p-code(s) that were logged we maybe able to help.

After that you need to get it on some good diagnostic equipment to view the rail pressure..dpf status...etc

What milage is on the engine...??
These engines can run alittle rough when the dpf is going tru a regeneration.

THE LINK WALSH

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Never buy citroen or anything French.Thats what I was always told. Had a renault-trouble.Citroen are bad news.

Ive personally owned 4 Peugeots and 2 Citroens without ever encountering any problems of note,my Wife drives an 07 Citroen Grand Picasso HDI thats never given an ounce of trouble since we bought it new,my father owned around 10 Peugeots and Five Citreons in his time without experiencing much bothe either,id buy one ahead of almost anything else on the market.

THE LINK WALSH

Thanks for the help so far lads,its a strange one this alright considering there isnt any light coming on the dash,i put a can of that Deisel Cleaner into the tank a few Weeks ago but I dont think it had much/any affect,theres 103 thousand Kms on the car,maybe i should just bite the expensive bullet and give to to the main dealer.

I could keep driving it as it is,its not the most annoying thing ever but id be worried I might be doing the engine harm.

Row

THE LINK WALSH wrote: »

maybe i should just bite the expensive bullet and give to to the main dealer.

There are also alot of good indepentent Garages out there that would just as good as some main dealers.
What part of the country are you based in....?

THE LINK WALSH

Row wrote: »

There are also alot of good indepentent Garages out there that would just as good as some main dealers.
What part of the country are you based in....?

Kilkenny,Id know a few good independent garages around these parts but id be hoping the main dealer might have come across the same problem before and would right it for me without much hassle,would i be doing damage to the engine i wonder?

Row

THE LINK WALSH wrote: »

Kilkenny,Id know a few good independent garages around these parts but id be hoping the main dealer might have come across the same problem before and would right it for me without much hassle,would i be doing damage to the engine i wonder?

If you get your hands on the P-code that your friend picked up i can see
what could be generating this fault...:)

If there were any major problems related to the engine then you should get a
"depollution fault" been displayed.
These engines are well monitored with alot of different sensors feeding back to the ecu...if there is something amiss then you would usally here about it with flashing lights/beeps.
If you do bring it into the main dealers let us know how you get on....:)

shamwari

A tenner says he deleted the code to turn the light off....:rolleyes:

Row

shamwari wrote: »

A tenner says he deleted the code to turn the light off....:rolleyes:

shamwari....You've came across this before then...:)
Most people think once the fault is cleared then everything should be fine.
They never think what caused the fault to come up in the first place..:rolleyes:

Nonoperational

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Never buy citroen or anything French.Thats what I was always told. Had a renault-trouble.Citroen are bad news.

How helpful. Bloody stupid comment too.

The fault code should reappear after a while if the fault is still present. I'd give it to a main dealer or good mechanic and they should sort it.

THE LINK WALSH

No light ever appeared on the dash,i just asked a lad with a cheapie diagnostic machine to plug it in and tell me what was up and he announced that i needed a fuel rail pressure sensor,Id be happier to get it checked out properly,ill give it to the main dealer and let ye know what happens.

shamwari

@ OP, When was the last time the diesel filter was changed?

@Row, do these thing have a low pressure lift pump in the tank?

THE LINK WALSH

shamwari wrote: »

@ OP, When was the last time the diesel filter was changed?

@Row, do these thing have a low pressure lift pump in the tank?

Its a good while ago,around 15000kms ago to be exact,the car is due a service around now,i always get all the filters changed at every service with a local garage,I use Castrol Magnatec 5w30 fully Synthetic oil,he does a fairly competant job on it but i dont know if he'd be able to get to the bottom of my engine problem without the necessary diagnostic equipment,im not a great believer in these Snap On etc multifunction TECH 2s that fellas are buying for around €1000 or so,surely a main Citroen dealers equipment will be far more accurate to the cars ECU??

I used to service the cars myself when I owned Peugeot 306 SDI and TDI,it was a lot simpler to get at the filters back then theres far more removing to be done these days apart from that itself I wouldnt go near a rail oil pressure engine for fear of doing something wrong.

Row

shamwari wrote: »

@ OP, When was the last time the diesel filter was changed?

@Row, do these thing have a low pressure lift pump in the tank?

Just thinking of the same thing shamwari...:)...With any low pressure problem ths fuel filter is the first port of call.


shamwari..No these don't have a low pressure pump in tank...the have a lift pump build into the High pressure pump.


@THE LINK WALSH
...if the common rail high pressure sensor was faulty your car would be in limp mode (would not rev over 2500 rpm's) and the car would have not power.
Ideally you would need to monitor the rail pressure on live data with some
good diagnostic equipment.

As shamwari said if the diesel filter was not replace lately then this would be the first thing to changeout.
Let us know how you get on...:)

Wheelnut

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Never buy citroen or anything French.Thats what I was always told. Had a renault-trouble.Citroen are bad news.

Would you consider Fords, Volvos and Mazdas to be OK? They are all available with this engine!

Row

Op.....Do you get any power hesitation/lack of power around 1800-2200 rpms while driving...??
Sticking Egr valves can also cause poor running and hesitation around 1800-2200 rpms on the 1.6 hdi's.
Just another taught....:)

THE LINK WALSH

Row wrote: »

Op.....Do you get any power hesitation/lack of power around 1800-2200 rpms while driving...??
Sticking Egr valves can also cause poor running and hesitation around 1800-2200 rpms on the 1.6 hdi's.
Just another taught....:)

I do notice this an odd time,would it be expensive to sort sticking EGR valves?,as I said earlier i splashed a can of diesel cleaner into the tank a few Weeks ago but it had no affect.

Row

THE LINK WALSH wrote: »

I do notice this an odd time,would it be expensive to sort sticking EGR valves?,as I said earlier i splashed a can of diesel cleaner into the tank a few Weeks ago but it had no affect.

Cleaning the egr valve can prevent it from jamming up soot altogether....if there left to long they can stick and fail.
Here is the location of the egr on the 1.6 hdi...if your handy with the tols you could give your own a cleaning...:)



This is the motor part of the egr been fitted to the mechanical end...after it was cleaned.


Before it was cleaned...


There is a guide on cleaning the egr valve here but its £10 per year to join.
http://www.407owners.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1797

slimjimmc

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Never buy citroen or anything French.Thats what I was always told. Had a renault-trouble.Citroen are bad news.

A friend once traded in his old, high milage but trouble-free 407 and bought a younger B4 Passat. Over 2yrs he had 1 breakdown, replaced window regulator, a dead battery, engine oil pressure switch that was pi55ing out oil and rear brake drum assys that had to be replaced because they kept failing NCT balance test. He was impressed by the mpg but being elderly and not keen on getting stranded again he soon got shot of it and got an Xantia instead. Since then has had another Xantia and is on his 2nd C5. Never had a bit of trouble with any of them and each of them passed the NCT first time. His only grief was a bit of bumper damage due to some dozy reversing, but sure what can you expect, it's French :rolleyes:.

shamwari

Row wrote: »

@THE LINK WALSH
...if the common rail high pressure sensor was faulty your car would be in limp mode (would not rev over 2500 rpm's) and the car would have not power.
Ideally you would need to monitor the rail pressure on live data with some good diagnostic equipment.

As shamwari said if the diesel filter was not replace lately then this would be the first thing to changeout.
Let us know how you get on...:)

Yeah I'd go with the filter first. OP, these things are actually quite user-friendly to replace. If you get a replacement one, look closely at it and you should be able to work out from it just how to remove the original and connect in the pipework. They are a much cleaner solution than their predecessors. Just prime the rubber bulb once the new one is installed and you will be fine (same engine in Ford cars have no bulb and are a pig to change. You need a hand primer or a mini vacuum pump to get the diesel into the filter). On the subject of diesel, do you fill up at a reputable outlet? Sometimes poor running can be down to suspect fuel and there are a number of outlets I know of where I wouldn't fill my car up

Row wrote: »

Op.....Do you get any power hesitation/lack of power around 1800-2200 rpms while driving...??
Sticking Egr valves can also cause poor running and hesitation around 1800-2200 rpms on the 1.6 hdi's.
Just another taught....:)

Just thinking about that one Row. The EGR system on those engines are quite precise and any jamming or misoperation of the EGR is likely to throw a P04xx code. I would imagine that this would / should have been picked up on the code scan. The other possibilty is that the code that was retrieved might have been a P1xxx code, and these as you know are manufacturer / vehicle specific. If this is the case, the code retrieved might have been interpreted for a completely different car. The notion that the rail pressure sensor is faulty doesn't add up either. Rather than a car limping, if the sensor sees low or insufficient pressure then is usually results in a show stopper. If you have any kind of a leak from the HP system, diesel @ 300bar of pressure is not something you want firing around under the bonnet:D

shamwari

Just had a thought: OP you can try disconnecting the MAF at cold startup and see how it behaves, and see if the roughness is gone? The car will be down on power if you drive it, but it will be interesting to see if the car idles properly.

THE LINK WALSH

shamwari wrote: »

Just had a thought: OP you can try disconnecting the MAF at cold startup and see how it behaves, and see if the roughness is gone? The car will be down on power if you drive it, but it will be interesting to see if the car idles properly.

Whats MAF?,the Air intake pipe id imagine

THE LINK WALSH

Row wrote: »

Cleaning the egr valve can prevent it from jamming up soot altogether....if there left to long they can stick and fail.
Here is the location of the egr on the 1.6 hdi...if your handy with the tols you could give your own a cleaning...:)



This is the motor part of the egr been fitted to the mechanical end...after it was cleaned.


Before it was cleaned...


There is a guide on cleaning the egr valve here but its £10 per year to join.
http://www.407owners.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1797

Brilliant info here Row,ill attack this tomorrow at lunchtime,id have access to an aerosol can of Brake Cleaner,its used for the preparation of surfaces for applying silicone gasket and at around €30 a can must be good stuff,id imagine using it to clean up this EGR valve before giving it a good rub of a rag will be ok?

Row

shamwari wrote: »

Just thinking about that one Row. The EGR system on those engines are quite precise and any jamming or misoperation of the EGR is likely to throw a P04xx code. I would imagine that this would / should have been picked up on the code scan. The other possibilty is that the code that was retrieved might have been a P1xxx code, and these as you know are manufacturer / vehicle specific. If this is the case, the code retrieved might have been interpreted for a completely different car. The notion that the rail pressure sensor is faulty doesn't add up either. Rather than a car limping, if the sensor sees low or insufficient pressure then is usually results in a show stopper. If you have any kind of a leak from the HP system, diesel @ 300bar of pressure is not something you want firing around under the bonnet:D

Ye these go up to 1600bar when under heavy load...:eek:

I have seen a mechanic try to crack open an injector pipe on one of these Once...needless to say I said "If you open that I'm out of here"...:rolleyes:
Leak back test is the only way to go.

Its very possible that the code reader is bringing up a totally different fault.
I think Lexia 3 is best Citroen/Peugeot as this is what the dealers use...:)

Row

THE LINK WALSH wrote: »

Brilliant info here Row,ill attack this tomorrow at lunchtime,id have access to an aerosol can of Brake Cleaner,its used for the preparation of surfaces for applying silicone gasket and at around €30 a can must be good stuff,id imagine using it to clean up this EGR valve before giving it a good rub of a rag will be ok?

At Lunchtime....:eek:....:)
I'd leave it till a Saturday or maybe you could nose your car into a your garage at home some evening.
Just watch the way the motor comes from the valve itself....also to get the motor off you'll have to pull up the diesel filter and remove the filter bracket to get to the torx screws on the egr motor.
I usally us compressed air as the soot just blows free from the valve.
Its important that the rollers on the valve are free to move...to remove the
egr valve totally can be tricky as its awkward to get to...:rolleyes:

Row

THE LINK WALSH wrote: »

Whats MAF?,the Air intake pipe id imagine

This is the mass airflow meter...its just before the airfilter box....:)

THE LINK WALSH

Row wrote: »

At Lunchtime....:eek:....:)
I'd leave it till a Saturday or maybe you could nose your car into a your garage at home some evening.
Just watch the way the motor comes from the valve itself....also to get the motor off you'll have to pull up the diesel filter and remove the filter bracket to get to the torx screws on the egr motor.
I usally us compressed air as the soot just blows free from the valve.
Its important that the rollers on the valve are free to move...to remove the
egr valve totally can be tricky as its awkward to get to...:rolleyes:

Sound,Ill have a go at it on Saturday,take my time at it,ive a compressor at home so will be able to blow it out,ill change the fuel filter then aswell and let ye fellas know how shes running next Week,not an error code or light to be seen on dash so these things must be worth a try.

Many thanks for the info lads.

kangoo1234

hi all..... as described this car '05 307 1.6 hdi .....now just starts up and runs 3 sec's then cuts out, checked fuel supply ok, checked turbo turning freely ok, checked codes none found, checked timing belt ok, the car puts out alot of black smoke in that 3 sec like its getting fuel but no air!! cat seems ok, have no data list so dont no any sensor readings ....ring any bells wiyh anyone??