Who supports merkel?

wobbles-grogan

Support Merkel and make the bondholders pay?
Or support.....eh..everyone else and make the taxpayers pay?

So, who supports merkel?

Edit: Due to popular demand:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1112/1224283151994.html

Angela Merkel wrote:

“We cannot keep constantly explaining to our voters and our citizens why the taxpayer should bear the cost of certain risks and not those people who have earned a lot of money from taking those risks.”

Cookie_Monster

Heil Hitl Merkel

bonerm

She needs all the support she can get.

senordingdong

Other EU leaders backing Lenihan is a real kick in the teeth.

Barna77

The Germans?

themadchef

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Support Merkel and make the bondholders pay?
Or support.....eh..everyone else and make the taxpayers pay?

So, who supports merkel?

Support no one and go on the beer option please.

thebigbiffo

i, for one, welcome our new german overlords.

PeterIanStaker

bonerm wrote: »

She needs all the support she can get.

Timm . . . berrrr!!!
:mad::eek:

PanchoVilla

What's this in relation to? Support for what? It's Merkel who wants to push through the legislation that will allow suspension voting rights in the EU. It's Merkel that wants to push through mandatory bailouts in future financial crisis. So what the hell is the OP on about exactly?

wobbles-grogan

Her recent quote about making bondholders pay for some the bailout of countries in the future, rather than making taxpayers pay for it all. I think you should read the the first post again. It was stated pretty clearly I thought...

PanchoVilla

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Her recent quote about making bondholders pay for some the bailout of countries in the future, rather than making taxpayers pay for it all. I think you should read the the first post again. It was stated pretty clearly I thought...

Ah yes, ok. It's usually a good idea to add links to whatever story you're talking about, maybe even add a quote or two.

Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel has refused to withdraw comments which the Government believes to have caused a massive spike in Ireland's borrowing costs.

Earlier this week, she warned investors that they should pay part of the cost for any future bail-out of struggling EU countries.

The comments caused jitters in the market, as investors decided that Irish Government bonds are now riskier than ever. They believe they may be hit with some of the cost if the country needs a bailout in the future.

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/merkel-refuses-to-withdraw-bond-holder-comments-481465.html

So you still support her? Anyone with a bit of sense would have kept their mouth shut until the crisis was over. Thanks to Merkel we're in even deeper trouble than before. She must be intentionally trying to sink this country.

sbsquarepants

Surely, if history teaches us anything, it's that the germans are not to be trusted!
Merkel mouths off, pushing us further into the $hit, we need to be bailed out and they get to dictate our corporation tax (among other things) in return for said bailout. Her mate Ollie has already said Irelands' future will not be as a low tax economy. (and he seemed so nice on the x factor)
I think ze germans, zey have ze agenda.:eek:

bonerm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Surely, if history teaches us anything, it's that the germans are not to be trusted!
Merkel mouths off, pushing us further into the $hit, we need to be bailed out and they get to dictate our corporation tax (among other things) in return for said bailout. Her mate Ollie has already said Irelands' future will not be as a low tax economy. (and he seemed so nice on the x factor)
I think ze germans, zey have ze agenda.:eek:

Better start digging a Maginot Line now I guess.

FreudianSlippers

I've been looking into this and I think she's right.

Plus I think we should just default now. I'm working on a post in Politics why I think we should do it.

Dionysus

wobbles-grogan wrote: »

Support Merkel and make the bondholders pay?
Or support.....eh..everyone else and make the taxpayers pay?

So, who supports merkel?

Could you please post a link to this story? This is the first I've heard. Just by what you said, I'd support Merkel.

wobbles-grogan

O don't support her no, i support her idea. I support the idea that if an entity(person or otherwise) takes out a bond in a country, which is just like buying shares really, that the entity pays for the bond no matter what.

If the bonds go up, the bondholder takes the money, if the bond goes down, the bondholder pays the money.

Right now, its a win-win situation for bondholders. They're essentially printing money for themselves.

Dionysus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Heil Hitl Merkel

Why does somebody always make such obnoxiously predictable comments in any thread relating to Germany?

Aside from being racist, it's crass, and straight from the gutter of British tabloid journalism. And all in the first post.:rolleyes:

Dionysus

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Surely, if history teaches us anything, it's that the germans are not to be trusted!

What an idiotic thing to say.

wobbles-grogan

Dionysus wrote: »

What an idiotic thing to say.

Indeed.

However, this is in after hours. Its to be expected :-)

FatherLen

Nice rack. I'm in.

bonerm

Dionysus wrote: »

Why does somebody always make such obnoxiously predictable comments in any thread relating to Germany?

Aside from being racist, it's crass, and straight from the gutter of British tabloid journalism. And all in the first post.:rolleyes:

Germans are notorious for their great sense of humour. They don't mind a few jokes about WWII or the sight of a tourist goose-stepping down Unter Den Linden towards the Brandenburg Gate with a right-arm salute. Mention the holocaust and they're the first to crack a joke.

The Germans: a great bunch of lads

humanji

PanchoVilla wrote: »

? Anyone with a bit of sense would have kept their mouth shut until the crisis was over.

Keep their mouths shut for the next 20-30 years?

Dionysus

bonerm wrote: »

Germans are notorious for their great sense of humour. They don't mind a few jokes about WWII or the sight of a tourist goose-stepping down Unter Den Linden towards the Brandenburg Gate with a right-arm salute. Mention the holocaust and they're the first to crack a joke.

The Germans: a great bunch of lads

Pathetic. Pathetic.

My name is URL

I agree with Pancho on this. These comments aren't going to help anyone.. they'll just cause the interest on bonds to rise even more. I reckon it'll reach 10% by Monday..

It's all well and good making utterances on who should be held responsible, but it doesn't change the fact that we still rely on selling government bonds. If she had some actual direct power to force the bondholders to share the burden then itd be great

wobbles-grogan

My name is URL wrote: »

I agree with Pancho on this. These comments aren't going to help anyone.. they'll just cause the interest on bonds to rise even more. I reckon it'll reach 10% by Monday..

It's all well and good making utterances on who should be held responsible, but it doesn't change the fact that we still rely on selling government bonds. If she had some actual direct power to force the bondholders to share the burden then itd be great

Proof that some serious change is needed? And i'd change that "she" into a "we" too. Not just the Irish, the whole EU. We seem to be afraid of the bondholders. I say **** that.

scientific1982

Why are we bailing out private institutions. Iceland didnt and they're doing a lot better than us right now.

sbsquarepants

Dionysus wrote: »

What an idiotic thing to say.

Well, in my defence there was the small matter of not 1, but 2, ahem shall we say incidents! Political correctness is all well and good, but let's not be idiots about it!

bonerm

Dionysus wrote: »

Pathetic. Pathetic.

You haven't even seen my goose-step.

listermint

She chose a great time to mouth off.. But im sure its all calculated. everything is.

Celly Smunt

close your legs,that should stop to smell of mackerel

K-9

So she suggests what most people have been moaning about for months, bondholders taking a hit and she gets knocked for it.

It'll have to be done eventually and we'll be glad we have the backing of the EU and Germany in the fight against the markets when it comes to the time.

biko

Careful now

My name is URL

K-9 wrote: »

So she suggests what most people have been moaning about for months, bondholders taking a hit and she gets knocked for it.

It'll have to be done eventually and we'll be glad we have the backing of the EU and Germany in the fight against the markets when it comes to the time.

It was always 'going to have to be done eventually', so why now and not before the situation became as bad as it is regarding Irish bonds? Do you think it's coincidental that this comes at the same time as rumors of an Irish bailout mount?

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

It was always 'going to have to be done eventually', so why now and not before the situation became as bad as it is regarding Irish bonds? Do you think it's coincidental that this comes at the same time as rumors of an Irish bailout mount?

I think it came because they and we know we are fecked, the EU/IMF coming in is just a mere formality at this stage.

As bad as it is? It was 7/8% anyway. I'd say Enda Kenny and Morgan Kelly have as much to blame, if not more than Merkel!

What do you have against the idea of letting bondholder's take a hit? I thought most people would be for it. Is it just because it is a German saying it rather than an Irish politician?

dotsman

K-9 wrote: »

I think it came because they and we know we are fecked, the EU/IMF coming in is just a mere formality at this stage.

As bad as it is? It was 7/8% anyway. I'd say Enda Kenny and Morgan Kelly have as much to blame, if not more than Merkel!

What do you have against the idea of letting bondholder's take a hit? I thought most people would be for it. Is it just because it is a German saying it rather than an Irish politician?

For those who were opposed to the guarantee, we are currently witnessing just a little taste of what would have happened if the guarantee hadn't been brought in.

The bond market has been getting worse for Ireland over the past months and is pretty much frozen at the moment for 3 reasons.

• The massive budget deficit. How can Ireland hope to fund these debts while they are still borrowing huge amounts propping up an over-inflated public sector and social welfare bill.
• Unknown government Future. It is very likely that the current government will not be power for much longer. There is a fear that Labour might have a say in the running of our economy and, thus, its complete collapse.
• An anticipated discount on Irish bonds. As per Merkel's "accidental" statement (she later clarified by saying that she was referring to bonds after 2013), there is an understandable fear regarding Irish bonds and that the government might force bondholders to take a cut. Would you lend to someone who's indicating that they will only repay you X%?

We have several months to get this crisis sorted. That involves properly introducing feasible, but large cuts to public spending, having an election where Labour do not come into power (or, at the very least, are not the dominating party in a coalition), and proving to the bondmarkets that we can and will repay our debts.

I would love to make the bondholders pay. It sounds easy, and yes, they are professional investors and knew/know the risk they were/are taking. However, they have us over a barrel. Unfortunately, at this time, we need them a hell of a lot more than they do us.

The best solution is to get our budget in order asap. Then, we will be in a better position to deal with the bondholders.

dsmythy

dotsman wrote: »

We have several months to get this crisis sorted. That involves properly introducing feasible, but large cuts to public spending, having an election where Labour do not come into power (or, at the very least, are not the dominating party in a coalition), and proving to the bondmarkets that we can and will repay our debts.

Labour coming to power would be a disaster but even they would cut public spending. They'll promise not to and then break their promise and do it anyway.

dotsman

dotsman wrote: »

There is a fear that Labour might have a say in the running of our economy and, thus, its complete collapse.

I think FF have already managed to do this without any help from Labour.

galwayrush

She is out boss:rolleyes:

K-9

dotsman wrote: »

For those who were opposed to the guarantee, we are currently witnessing just a little taste of what would have happened if the guarantee hadn't been brought in.

The bond market has been getting worse for Ireland over the past months and is pretty much frozen at the moment for 3 reasons.

• The massive budget deficit. How can Ireland hope to fund these debts while they are still borrowing huge amounts propping up an over-inflated public sector and social welfare bill.
• Unknown government Future. It is very likely that the current government will not be power for much longer. There is a fear that Labour might have a say in the running of our economy and, thus, its complete collapse.
• An anticipated discount on Irish bonds. As per Merkel's "accidental" statement (she later clarified by saying that she was referring to bonds after 2013), there is an understandable fear regarding Irish bonds and that the government might force bondholders to take a cut. Would you lend to someone who's indicating that they will only repay you X%?

We have several months to get this crisis sorted. That involves properly introducing feasible, but large cuts to public spending, having an election where Labour do not come into power (or, at the very least, are not the dominating party in a coalition), and proving to the bondmarkets that we can and will repay our debts.

I would love to make the bondholders pay. It sounds easy, and yes, they are professional investors and knew/know the risk they were/are taking. However, they have us over a barrel. Unfortunately, at this time, we need them a hell of a lot more than they do us.

The best solution is to get our budget in order asap. Then, we will be in a better position to deal with the bondholders.

The problem is we can't win with the markets.

€4.5 Billion worth of cuts and €1.5 Billion worth of tax increases. That will affect spending and GDP.

That's what the cut, cut, cut brigade forget. If you cut 1% of GDP by solely cutting Govt. expenditure, that will represent a .5/.6% cut in growth.

So, when the results come out for November/December 2010 and the first couple of months of 2011 showing growth decreasing or maybe even back negative, what do you think the markets will do?

General General

I propose we start using seashells for currency.... pay off what we owe in those.

My name is URL

K-9 wrote: »

The problem is we can't win with the markets.

€4.5 Billion worth of cuts and €1.5 Billion worth of tax increases. That will affect spending and GDP.

That's what the cut, cut, cut brigade forget. If you cut 1% of GDP by solely cutting Govt. expenditure, that will represent a .5/.6% cut in growth.

So, when the results come out for November/December 2010 and the first couple of months of 2011 showing growth decreasing or maybe even back negative, what do you think the markets will do?

It really is about the short-term for most people isn't it? Your opening sentence scares and saddens me. Of course it's true, placing a small burden on the bondholders now is not going to make them all fall into line and accept whatever is being offered in return for their 'service'.

They'll continue to tweak their models to maximize their gains. Take one euro from them now and they'll rake it back over time, along with whatever they feel is a necessary cost for bearing the risk.

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

It really is about the short-term for most people isn't it? Your opening sentence scares and saddens me. Of course it's true, placing a small burden on the bondholders now is not going to make them all fall into line and accept whatever is being offered in return for their 'service'.

They'll continue to tweak their models to maximize their gains. Take one euro from them now and they'll rake it back over time, along with whatever they feel is a necessary cost for bearing the risk.

These proposals and they are proposals, wont come on the agenda until 2013, after the current fund is up. So, when we look for the EU/IMF fund next year, this isn't in it.

It isn't even a certainty that it will actually become law. It could fall by the wayside like the excluding countries like Ireland from voting proposal.

Short term? Our long term option atm is the EU/IMF, unless you have another one?

Lenihan or if a new Govt. by then, might wise up and let bondholder's take a hit like they are starting to do with some bonds in Anglo and Irish Nationwide, but I doubt it will happen. Do FG and Labour propose this?

Just wondering how politically realistic discounting the bonds is now. While I like that idea, if it isn't "on the table!" , it really is a waste of time talking about it.

dotsman

Deleted User wrote: »

I think FF have already managed to do this without any help from Labour.

While I might disagree with FF's economic policies over the past decade, they are nothing compared to Labour's (who don't really have policies save reversing the public sector pay cuts, and collapsing the banking sector leaving the banking debts fully at teh hands of the taxpayer).

Belive me, if you think that the current situation could be described as "economic collapse" - you ain't seen nothing yet. Give Gilmore a month in power and you'll truly understand that phrase.

dsmythy wrote: »

Labour coming to power would be a disaster but even they would cut public spending. They'll promise not to and then break their promise and do it anyway.

Well, that's the problem with Labour. We know they won't be able to do what they say, but then that leaves the question - What will they do? At least with some other party you might have an idea of what they intend to cut (and what they intend to raise) and can vote accordingly if you agree with the policy.

K-9 wrote: »

The problem is we can't win with the markets.

€4.5 Billion worth of cuts and €1.5 Billion worth of tax increases. That will affect spending and GDP.

That's what the cut, cut, cut brigade forget. If you cut 1% of GDP by solely cutting Govt. expenditure, that will represent a .5/.6% cut in growth.

So, when the results come out for November/December 2010 and the first couple of months of 2011 showing growth decreasing or maybe even back negative, what do you think the markets will do?

Oh, I know well the affect the cuts will have on the economy. But, firstly, it is only short-term pain (for, hopefully, long-term gain!). But secondly, its the fact that there is a plan and the markets can make somewhat realistic predictions on Ireland's long-term financial health. It's all the current unknown's which drive the media frenzy/speculation/BS and, thus, panic.

take everything

K-9 wrote: »

So she suggests what most people have been moaning about for months, bondholders taking a hit and she gets knocked for it.

It'll have to be done eventually and we'll be glad we have the backing of the EU and Germany in the fight against the markets when it comes to the time.

Not an expert in this stuff but this was my impression.
Isn't she just doing what Cowen and Lenihan are too spineless to do.
She's the only person i've seen to be not be in awe of the bond holders.

K-9

dotsman wrote: »

While I might disagree with FF's economic policies over the past decade, they are nothing compared to Labour's (who don't really have policies save reversing the public sector pay cuts, and collapsing the banking sector leaving the banking debts fully at teh hands of the taxpayer).

Belive me, if you think that the current situation could be described as "economic collapse" - you ain't seen nothing yet. Give Gilmore a month in power and you'll truly understand that phrase.

Well, that's the problem with Labour. We know they won't be able to do what they say, but then that leaves the question - What will they do? At least with some other party you might have an idea of what they intend to cut (and what they intend to raise) and can vote accordingly if you agree with the policy.


Oh, I know well the affect the cuts will have on the economy. But, firstly, it is only short-term pain (for, hopefully, long-term gain!). But secondly, its the fact that there is a plan and the markets can make somewhat realistic predictions on Ireland's long-term financial health. It's all the current unknown's which drive the media frenzy/speculation/BS and, thus, panic.

The problem is the markets only thing short term, young lads thinking of bonuses and pay outs, plus we are an easy target, just another Greece to them and then Portugal after. They'll see reduced or negative growth and decreased tax revenues and higher the rates again.

take everything wrote: »

Not an expert in this stuff but this was my impression.
Isn't she just doing what Cowen and Lenihan are too spineless to do.
She's the only person i've seen to be not be in awe of the bond holders.

Thought so. The EU has tried to face up to bankers and hedge funds and it isn't just Merkel, Sarkozy is no fan of them and bondholders either.

dotsman

dotsman wrote: »

While I might disagree with FF's economic policies over the past decade, they are nothing compared to Labour's (who don't really have policies save reversing the public sector pay cuts, and collapsing the banking sector leaving the banking debts fully at teh hands of the taxpayer).

FF have already left banking debts fully in the hands of the taxpayer with their ridiculous, almost unconditional bank guarantee.

If one were to set out to deliberately destroy the sustainable, export driven economy we had in the mid to late 90s it would be difficult to do a better job than FF.

They did this by pandering to certain vested interests who filled the party coffers, and creating and sustaining a ridiculous property bubble. Even now as the house of cards collapses around them, they are still pandering to those vested interests (guarantee for the banks, NAMA for the developers) and making the situation even worse.

As for Gilmore, it's impossible to predict how well/badly he and his party would handle this mess, but he couldn't possibly be any worse than the current shower who have so completley run the country into the ground.

It's this bizarre and irrational "better the devil you know" philosophy exhibited by a large proportion of the electorate that has played a pivotal role in our downfall.

K-9

PS.There has been some good news in the last month, Unemployment reducing, Exports up, Reduced numbers in the Public Service, severe budget coming up, this years figures on target, all ignored by the markets.

bleg

Angie's a hero. She can annex Ireland all she wants, I'd be fine with that.

cml387

Back in the early 60's,loads of Germans moved to or bought houses in west Cork and Kerry because,by looking at prevailing winds and Irish neutrality they reckoned it was the safest place to be in the event of nuclear war.

So for being an unofficial fallout shelter we are looking for payback.

OK it may be grasping at straws somewhat.

dsmythy

The one sad thing about this thread is the fact that we are now asking how a foreign leader is performing with regards to our economic policy.

sollar

Listen to this if you have the time:

http://media.newstalk.ie/podcast/21519/popup


Its quite informative and he supports what Angela Merkel is saying. The 2 Brians have made such a mistake.