The German people stopped a train--guarded by 17,000 police troops

digme

Protests against the storing of nuclear waste in Germany and extending the life of the nation's nuclear plants turned violent in spots on Sunday, according to protesters and police.
A train carrying nuclear waste left Lueneburg station Sunday on its way to Dannenberg, said Nicole Ramrath, Lueneburg police spokeswoman. After making the 50-kilometer (31-mile) trip by rail, the shipment will be unloaded onto trucks and driven to the storage site at Gorleben, in north-central Germany about 209 kilometers (130 miles) northwest of Berlin.

That's the sum total of the article. Sounds like a "nothing", right? Protesters got violent, the cops put it down, the train goes onward.
Well....... maybe not.

The German people stopped a train--guarded by 17,000 police troops!-- from delivering nuclear reactor radioactive waste that would have endangered people. This report of events in Germany emphasizes the non-violent aspect of the rebellion, but some of the protestors, contrary to the philosophy of nonviolence, applied force: “A water cannon truck [that would have been used by the police to remove protestors] was blocked by tractors.” Despite it being contrary to the philosophy of nonviolence, it seems like an excellent thing for the protestors to have done. -John

Wait a second. The people stopped the train - guarded by 17,000 cops?

But by Sunday night, those same police officers were begging the protestors for a respite.
Trapped in black, icy woods without supplies or reinforcements able to reach them because of blockades by a mobile fleet of farmer’s tractors, the exhausted and hungry police officers requested negotiations with the protestors.

Oh, those cops were all so tired and worn out...... and cut off? Uh, is this a protest or is this a civil war? And why isn't this being reported?
Gee, I thought the state always won? And that this was all under control?
This, over shipment of nuclear waste.
Now where are the protests related to the banks robbing the people blind?
And more importantly, who still thinks the people won't win if they decide they've had enough?






well done

InTheTrees

digme wrote: »

Gee, I thought the state always won?

The State always wins in the end. Thats the important part unfortunatly.

Anita Blow

nama, fianna fail, disgrace joe etc.

The German people stopped a train--guarded by 17,000 police troops!-- from delivering nuclear reactor radioactive waste that would have endangered people.

Says who exactly?
It's nuclear waste, it hasn't endangered any of them yet

who what when

InTheTrees wrote: »

The State always wins in the end. Thats the important part unfortunatly.

But sometimes its important to give them something to think about!

Nodin

InTheTrees wrote: »

The State always wins in the end. Thats the important part unfortunatly.

Not nessecarily. Besides, the state is supposed to represent the people, to some extent. Allegedly.

Setun

Bloody germans. Even incredibly efficient in their protests.

dxhound2005

who what when wrote: »

But sometimes its important to give them something to think about!

Give them something to think about by voting them out of office.

mobby

InTheTrees wrote: »

The State always wins in the end. Thats the important part unfortunatly.

An you see If them people win, then they will become the state.
and it starts all over again. That life boys and girls.

qwertz

The people have already won since this has been happening for years. Every protest makes it so much more expensive and from a certain point onwards unviable. Power to the people!

citizen_p

like that time the beer didnt get delivered to munich in 23'
apparently the customers kicked up a fuss.

beer hall putsch or somthing along them lines i think.



I dont think the germans like admiting their riots etc...
like 17000, police, is a very large standoff. even in the largest population in europe.

hatrickpatrick

bluewolf wrote: »

Says who exactly?
It's nuclear waste, it hasn't endangered any of them yet

The people didn't it want it there. In a democracy, that's all that should matter.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Give them something to think about by voting them out of office.

If the people could do that at any point during an administration, and if they could pick and choose which departments they wanted in the hands of different politicians, I'd agree with you.

Unfortunately, our system has two gigantic failings which make it far to vague to ever be truly democratic:
1: The people do not have the power, by means of a referendum or anything of the sort, to demand an election. The politicians, once they get into office, can do whatever they like, no matter how it goes against their mandate, and not suffer consequences for 5 years.

2: You can't pick your policies. If I like FF's education policy but detest their health policy, WTF am I supposed to do? Decide, in my mind, which I am willing to let go of, healthcare or education?

This is why the general parliament system doesn't work.

What we SHOULD do is have a system where there is NO general Dail. A TD would run for a specific department, and if elected, would vote only on issues related to that specific department. In this system, you would never have a situation where "I hate their health policy but support their education policy", because they would only be able to actually run with ONE of those policies. They would have to declare which department they were running for before the election, and each constituency would have a number of TDs in each department rather than just in the Dail generally.

Far more direct rule by the people. FAR more democratic. FAR less easy for politicians to screw us over. FAR less easy for politicians to lie.

Einhard

Bah, they just don't make German soldiers like they used to.

Manic Moran

The people didn't it want it there. In a democracy, that's all that should matter.

Isn't that what the legislature is for?

It would have been amusing had the engineer put the locomotive into Notch 1, then stuck his head and hands out the window saying "you can sit on the tracks if you want to, but the train will take far less damage than you will"

NTM

galah

did anyone mention that this is GERMAN nuclear waste from GERMAN nuclear plants, generating electricity for GERMAN consumers, just returning to Germany where it rightfully belongs?

Idiots.

LittleBook

galah wrote: »

did anyone mention that this is GERMAN nuclear waste from GERMAN nuclear plants, generating electricity for GERMAN consumers, just returning to Germany where it rightfully belongs?

True, but in fairness the protest is about more than the actual waste, it's about shutting down the existing plants.

Anti-Nuclear Sentiment Swells in Germany

The protests are part of a resurgent anti-nuclear movement that has been enlivened by growing opposition to a plan to extend the life span of Germany's 17 nuclear power plants.

Tuesday marked the final leg of a contentious, five-day journey for German nuclear waste that was reprocessed in France and sent back for storage. For the past few days, protesters have tried everything to block the train and trucks — from human chains to herds of sheep and farm tractors.

The annual shipment is always a protest magnet. But this year, there was even wider support as the trainload — which protesters dubbed "Chernobyl on wheels" — drew huge crowds shouting "shut the plants down."

Organizers say 50,000 demonstrators turned out on Saturday and about 9,000 protesters participated in the blockade actions this week. Some 20,000 police officers were deployed in the operation. Both sides say the actions were largely nonviolent, but there were instances of protesters throwing stones and bottles and of police using pepper spray and tear gas, resulting in mostly minor injuries.

Police trade unions complained in unusually hard terms that they have been "scapegoated" by politicians, who "made a fatal mistake" when they extended nuclear plants life spans, and that citizens are right to protest.

Nuclear energy has been deeply unpopular in Germany since the 1986 Chernobyl accident in the Soviet Union. The anti-nuclear movement thought it had secured a victory in 2001 when the then-ruling Social Democrats and Greens agreed to phase out Germany's nuclear plants by 2021.

But this year, Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative coalition reversed that decision and voted to extend the life of the plants by an average of 12 years.

FruitLover

Damn jackbooted Germans, always oppressing those poor innocent Germans :mad:

bonerm

Germany. Where the trains DON'T run on time.

Manic Moran

Nuclear energy has been deeply unpopular in Germany since the 1986 Chernobyl accident in the Soviet Union. The anti-nuclear movement thought it had secured a victory in 2001 when the then-ruling Social Democrats and Greens agreed to phase out Germany's nuclear plants by 2021.

But this year, Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative coalition reversed that decision and voted to extend the life of the plants by an average of 12 years.

Good for Merkel.

It is pathetic that the anti-nuclear crowd's big bogeyman is an outdated design made by a country with a reputation for shoddy construction manned by less-than-stellarly trained Soviet Peoples' Technicians, whereas their neighbours in France have been producing 4/5ths of their energy incident and pollution free for decades, and Japan, a country which may perhaps know more than most about radioactive incidents, is continuing to expand its own disaster-free nuclear network.

NTM

orourkeda

At least they built nuclear power plants

SEPT 23 1989

"Nuc-u-lar"! It's pronounced, "nuc-u-lar"

minidazzler

17000 police escorting nuclear waste, but for love parade, with over a million people in attendance there were only 3200 police on hand?

Duggy747

All these years with power plants and nuclear waste and STILL we don't have a superhero. :mad:

I'll even settle on a guy who can shoot lasers out of his arse.

ejmaztec

****Godwin Alert****

They didn't bother stopping trains during WW2.

Seaneh

it's about time we built a few plants are started exporting electricity. Be much cheaaper than the coal and peat plants we are using at the minute and be much better for the environment.

Corsendonk

Manic Moran wrote: »

Good for Merkel.

It is pathetic that the anti-nuclear crowd's big bogeyman is an outdated design made by a country with a reputation for shoddy construction manned by less-than-stellarly trained Soviet Peoples' Technicians, whereas their neighbours in France have been producing 4/5ths of their energy incident and pollution free for decades, and Japan, a country which may perhaps know more than most about radioactive incidents, is continuing to expand its own disaster-free nuclear network.

NTM

Not always shoddy construction, they still have 1954 Russian constructed AK-47s working away in Afganistan.

Corsendonk

Seaneh wrote: »

it's about time we built a few plants are started exporting electricity. Be much cheaaper than the coal and peat plants we are using at the minute and be much better for the environment.

The current East-West interconnector with the European grid has had numerous protests from Nimbys. Factor in the costs of protests here from the Nimbys when you starting building reactors. Irish population arn't too strong on science.

galah

I realise that this is also about stopping nuclear waste/production in general, but seriously, what do the protesters want to achieve by stopping this train?

The waste is there, it's theirs as well (as in, collectively, whether they wanted it or not), and where should it go now? 'somewhere else' is not an option...by all means, protest against nuclear power (they could do that more cost-effectively at any power plant, though), but I'd like to hear what they'd suggest to do with the waste instead...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

InTheTrees wrote: »

The State always wins in the end. Thats the important part unfortunatly.

The GDR didn't win when the Berlin Wall came down.
The British Empire came second to Ghandi.
The State will probbaly not win the next general election (too late, I know, but still relevant)

Boskowski

galah wrote: »

did anyone mention that this is GERMAN nuclear waste from GERMAN nuclear plants, generating electricity for GERMAN consumers, just returning to Germany where it rightfully belongs?

Idiots.

You're obviously well clued in on what this is all about. Muppet.

Seaneh

nuclear is clearly the best, cheapest and cleanest way we have to produce electricity. In ireland we have the perfect conditions and with t plants and the continued use of our hydro plants we would be producing well over our grid capacity and could even be making a net profit by exporting.

the_syco

It's nuclear waste, it hasn't endangered any of them yet

If some of the protestors tried to remove the nuclear waste, I'd be pretty sure the "protestor" would be upgraded to "terrorist" or "Al'Qaeda cell", and that they'd be approached differently.

=-=

As for Chernobyl...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

As in the previously released report INSAG-1, close attention is paid in report INSAG-7 to the inadequate (at the moment of the accident) “culture of safety” at all levels. Deficiency in the safety culture was inherent not only at the operational stage but also, and to no lesser extent, during activities at other stages in the lifetime of nuclear power plants (including design, engineering, construction, manufacture and regulation). The poor quality of operating procedures and instructions, and their conflicting character, put a heavy burden on the operating crew, including the Chief Engineer. “The accident can be said to have flowed from a deficient safety culture, not only at the Chernobyl plant, but throughout the Soviet design, operating and regulatory organizations for nuclear power that existed at that time".

They tested a new system during the day. Had a special team of electrical engineers that were present to test the new voltage regulating system and all. The plan was, that the test should have been carried out during the day, but unfortuneately it wasn't, and sh|t hit the fan at around 1am.

So comparing modern day plants with Chernobyl isn't that good a comparison.

Carry

galah wrote: »

did anyone mention that this is GERMAN nuclear waste from GERMAN nuclear plants, generating electricity for GERMAN consumers, just returning to Germany where it rightfully belongs?

Idiots.

No, galah sweetie, it is not.The waste comes from La Hague in Normandy which processes the stuff mainly from French and some other European nuclear plants. It's just dumped in Germany.
Now who is the idiot? :pac:

And nuclear plants are not essential to provide electricity in Germany or elsewhere. There are other means, as you should well know, if you'd keep yourself informed.

freckly

Carry wrote: »

No, galah sweetie, it is not.The waste comes from La Hague in Normandy which processes the stuff mainly from French and some other European nuclear plants. It's just dumped in Germany.
Now who is the idiot? :pac:
.

The "idiot" may be you... German media has reported that the waste was treated in France, after being created in Germany. Here's a quote from an English language site in Germany, called The Local
"The waste is on its way back to Germany - where it was initially created in the generation of electricity - after being treated at a plant in France by nuclear giant Areva.The convoy is the 11th of its kind to be sent back to Germany."
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20101105-30995.html
The same information was also used in Germany language news (radio and RTL tv)

galah

oh really?

La Hague is just a processing plant - the orginal waste does come from Germany, is processed there, and now sent back. I do keep myself informed, thank you very much, no need to be condescending.

And the question remains - where else should this waste go? Some other country?

Corsendonk

Carry wrote: »

No, galah sweetie, it is not.The waste comes from La Hague in Normandy which processes the stuff mainly from French and some other European nuclear plants. It's just dumped in Germany.
Now who is the idiot? :pac:

And nuclear plants are not essential to provide electricity in Germany or elsewhere. There are other means, as you should well know, if you'd keep yourself informed.

La Hague is a processing plant just like Sellafield and THORP in the UK. Germany had one in Karlsruhe that was closed in 1990 so they use La Hague



If you wish to have a debate on other energy sources perhaps the sustainability forum might be better, you may be educated.

Manic Moran

Corsendonk wrote: »

Not always shoddy construction, they still have 1954 Russian constructed AK-47s working away in Afganistan.

Actually, the AK's success lies in its shoddyness by design. It is built to such loose tolerances that it will continue to work (Albeit not as accurately as, say, a Western rifle) despite all the foreign matter it may ingest or abuse you put it through. I submit, however, that loose tolerances and inaccuracy are perhaps not terms which really should be deliberately incorporated into the design of a nuclear reactor.

NTM

Mike 1972

Seaneh wrote: »

nuclear is clearly the best, cheapest and cleanest way we have to produce electricity

So why does the nuclear industry in Britain and the US (to name just two countries) recieve massive public subsidies and still struggle to turn a profit ?

Manic Moran wrote: »

It is pathetic that the anti-nuclear crowd's big bogeyman is an outdated design made by a country with a reputation for shoddy construction manned by less-than-stellarly trained Soviet Peoples' Technicians,

Not as pathetic as when "the accident which could never happen" became "the accident which could never happen outside the Soviet union"

Manic Moran wrote: »

Japan, a country which may perhaps know more than most about radioactive incidents, is continuing to expand its own disaster-free nuclear network.

Disaster free ? are you sure about that ? Certainely not near-miss free at any rate !

the_syco wrote: »

So comparing modern day plants with Chernobyl isn't that good a comparison.

Im pretty sure the vast majority of currently operational nuclear reactors in France and Germany predate the Chernobyl incident.

Manic Moran

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So why does the nuclear industry in Britain and the US (to name just two countries) recieve massive public subsidies and still struggle to turn a profit ?

I can't speak for the UK, but in the US there are so many regulatory and legal hoops to go through, plus everyone with a cause goes and sues the manufacturer, that the costs are in the hundreds of millions of dollars over the first fifteen or twenty years just doing the paperwork to allow the first brick to be laid. Just expanding the Votgle plant by adding a new reactor, the first new reactor in thirty years in the US, was a process which started in 2002, was approved in 2010, and is expected to be completed 2016.

Building the thing itself is cheap.

NTM

Nodin

Seaneh wrote: »

nuclear is clearly the best, cheapest and cleanest way we have to produce electricity. In ireland we have the perfect conditions and with t plants and the continued use of our hydro plants we would be producing well over our grid capacity and could even be making a net profit by exporting.

Looking at the situation regarding the planned incinerator, theres two chances.....

peasant

galah wrote: »

did anyone mention that this is GERMAN nuclear waste from GERMAN nuclear plants, generating electricity for GERMAN consumers, just returning to Germany where it rightfully belongs?

Idiots.

Did anyone mention that the German governement (after years of struggle) had finally agreed on a plan to get out of nuclear energy (and its ill thought out policy of just dumping the waste in a hole at what used to be wasteland near the East German border) only to renage on it because ..."there's a recession on don't you know?"

I would hazard a guess and say that the protest might have had something to do with that ...the democratic will of the people being trampled upon and all that.

BlaasForRafa

Corsendonk wrote: »

Not always shoddy construction, they still have 1954 Russian constructed AK-47s working away in Afganistan.

There are 1898 German mausers being used in Afghanistan as well.

TheRiddler

The great Adolf would not stand for this!

biko

Manic Moran wrote: »

It would have been amusing had the engineer put the locomotive into Notch 1, then stuck his head and hands out the window saying "you can sit on the tracks if you want to, but the train will take far less damage than you will"

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail"

BlaasForRafa

Carry wrote: »

No, galah sweetie, it is not.The waste comes from La Hague in Normandy which processes the stuff mainly from French and some other European nuclear plants. It's just dumped in Germany.
Now who is the idiot? :pac:

And nuclear plants are not essential to provide electricity in Germany or elsewhere. There are other means, as you should well know, if you'd keep yourself informed.

These anti-nuclear retards don't seem to realise that the main alternatives like coal, gas and oil do FAR more damage to the environment than nuclear power does.

BlitzKrieg

I wouldnt jump on the hyperbole that nuclear power is evil.

but at the same time it is far too much power to take casually and I kinda like the idea that regardless of your own personal ideology the vast majority of people be they capatilist, socialist, whatever tend to have a very cautious view on nuclear energy at least if not outright opposition.


Take away that element of caution (fear) and the industry will get laxed and corners will start to be cut corners or take safety precautions less serious and we end up with situations ala the BP oil spill.

except with nuclear fallout.


So do I agree with the fear at a logical level...no not really.

But do I trust goverments/companies enough to have the run of it without any complaints...Gods no!

dsmythy

What was the protesters preferred alternative?

Mike 1972

dsmythy wrote: »

What was the protesters preferred alternative?

Wind ? Tidal ? Wave ? Solar ? Biomass ? Clean coal ? Hydro ? Geothermal ? Energey efficency ? I dunno probably all of the above.

Manic Moran

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Disaster free ? are you sure about that ? Certainely not near-miss free at any rate !

Nope, there have been incidents. But, strangely, the safety procedures in place do seem to have worked in all cases in order to prevent disaster.

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail"

I'm just saying. The protestors have the right to assemble and to protest. The catch is that the locomotive engineer has the right to freedom of travel.
Problem is that in this example of the force meeting object, one is relatively irresistable, while the other is really not very immovable.

NTM

Mike 1972

Manic Moran wrote: »

Nope, there have been incidents. But, strangely, the safety procedures in place do seem to have worked in all cases in order to prevent disaster.

The relatives of the five people killed in the 2004 incident might take issue with you on that one. And the safety procedures did take a while to pick up on the falsified inspection records/cracks ??

peasant

Manic Moran wrote: »

The catch is that the locomotive engineer has the right to freedom of travel.

Very simplistic view that.

"Freedom of travel" sounds very catchy and all that ...but what about the deadly poisonous load that he's so "freely" carrying to a not so secure hole in people's back gardens?

You can sell that kind of "freedom" to the Iraquis maybe or the Afghans ..oh no hang on ..you need tracked and armed "locomotives" for them as well, don't you?

As for the loco driver ...he's getting paid whether he's moving or stationary, so I wouldn't worry about his personal freedom too much really