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iCode6 - New postcode proposal

2

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    When a final decision is made about the national postcode, loc8 and gocode will be irrelevant. My understanding is that PA Consulting have been told to get a system that has a geocode at its heart, but there is a desire to have an ABC xxx type system.

    So my guess is that the final system will incorporate many of the principles of locb and gocode but HOPEFULLY some human-readable element.

    My suggestion isn't the answer, it's only 4 weeks old, untested etc. But it is a demonstration of the fact that a geocode and some human readable part can be combined for some areas. Perhaps someone else will come up with something even better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,495 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    garydubh wrote: »
    Just a small technical point Conolan... 4 decimal places of Lat/long as an origin will not guarantee 6m position accuracy across the country!!! That is why Loc8 is 7 characters plus 1 additional one used as a checker code to make it 8 - also essential in a modern system to be used in safety critcal applications.

    There are many other deficiencies in your system Conolan - but we will leave them for another day!

    And what about the other things you were broadcasting about in earlier posts - looks like you have forgotten about all those things now in your eagerness to make untested claims to the world!

    Especially, what about adding names of places to your code - where did that idea go - if you are doing it for some city centres (not names at all but just first letters where C could mean Cork, Carlow, Cavan, Clare and none at all for Dublin) why are you not doing it for every town in the country - was this not one of your criticims of others in earlier posts?

    Good luck with it......

    One advantage (for me) of "Loc8" is that I could drill down to my (remote rural Galway) residence with the OSI maps they use, but could not with iCode, since Google maps omit the road Boreen I live on.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    One advantage (for me) of "Loc8" is that I could drill down to my (remote rural Galway) residence with the OSI maps they use, but could not with iCode, since Google maps omit the road Boreen I live on.

    My system on Google is purely a demo. This is a proposal, not the final solution. When we have a postcode, there will be a job of matching premises to codes. Hopefully people will not be asked to find their own postcode. That would be a disaster.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    My understanding is that PA Consulting have been told to get a system that has a geocode at its heart, but there is a desire to have an ABC xxx type system..

    Yes - Loc8 Code has been campaigning now for nearly 5 years to make sure that what is implemented is not just a code which brings you to the centre of 50 properties as was proposed in the basic ABC 123 model! I can assure you GPS Ireland and Loc8 has worked hard to ensure that now that you come to look at it Conolan that a geocode is acceptable - it was not before!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    My system on Google is purely a demo. This is a proposal, not the final solution. When we have a postcode, there will be a job of matching premises to codes. Hopefully people will not be asked to find their own postcode. That would be a disaster.

    Yes Loc8 has invested heavily in proving its system and making it useable with OSI/OSNI mapping even if there is no National Postcode - to Loc8 it is about what can be used now not what might be implemented in the future. (A National Postcode was supposed to be in place in Jan 2008 after all)

    A Loc8 Code already exists for every address in the GeoDirectory but also detailed mapping is used on the Loc8 site for what is not in the GeoDirectory and the many 10's of thousands of destinations used every day that do not have addresses and are not in the GeoDirectory.

    Loc8 is already released and in use - Loc8 was not waiting around for someone else to do all the preparatory work or for someone to offer the postcode prize before they committed investment and effort into delivering a working system.

    Even if there is never a National Postcode (a real possibility due to budgetary constraints) - there is still Loc8 Code! I think Loc8 has put their money where their mouth is to be fair!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,495 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    conolan wrote: »
    My system on Google is purely a demo. This is a proposal, not the final solution. When we have a postcode, there will be a job of matching premises to codes.
    conolan wrote: »
    Hopefully people will not be asked to find their own postcode. That would be a disaster.

    Why, it appeals to my inner geek.
    conolan wrote: »
    We need postcodes that people can understand.

    No we do not, we just need one that works, most people won't care about the actual system, they just want the letters/parcel/taxi/visitor to arrive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭deckstunt


    garydubh wrote: »
    why is it that you object to Loc8 Code applying for a patent for the fruit of its labour?
    I don't object per se. I wanted to highlight the benefits of an open source type project. And to do that I highlighted the downside to a private system like Loc8. Because if Loca8 became the de facto post code for Ireland then Loca8 becomes the sole 'gate keeper' to the system and every one is then at Loc8's mercy. Great for Loca8- not so good for everyone else. That goes for any system, be it icode6, Loc8 or whoever.
    garydubh wrote: »
    So Deckstunt - you obviously do not understand anything about a national postcode!
    Your right I don't, and never claimed to. The single point I wanted to make (to conolan) was that an open sourced community based, collaborative, wiki-type project, with some kind of Creative Commons type license could be very successful. I'm sorry if that put your nose out-of-joint. I think your (over) reaction may betray the fact that you see such a project as a threat to Loc8.

    garydubh wrote: »
    Perhaps Deckstunt you might let us know what your real agenda is and refrain from publishing misleading comment!
    Must I have 'real agenda'? Can I not make my point without an ulterior motive?


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭ForiegnNational


    garydubh wrote: »
    Impelementing this type of system is complicated and expensive - not something that you throw out there and walk away - it has to be supported and maintained - so not exactly the type of thing you fire and forget as open source.

    Actually, as you are simply encoding Lat/Long coordinates (an easy enough mechanism, as iCode6, my old ePostCode, etc prove), the only maintenance is to update the API on the site with any updates from OSI or GoogleMaps. Don't try and make it sound like a huge task.

    I agree that the exclusive licence is very appealing, but I would expect a couple of days of reverse engineering could crack the encoding mechanism of any lat/long based system. Therefore there would have to be a legal hammer to stop everybody simply reverse engineering relatively straight forward code and once cracked, just like DVD encryption, you cannot change it (and hence peoples postcodes), so it will be freely available from then on.

    This will be the biggest task for any company that is chosen, not the infrequent API updates.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    garydubh wrote: »
    Impelementing this type of system is complicated and expensive - not something that you throw out there and walk away - it has to be supported and maintained - so not exactly the type of thing you fire and forget as open source.

    My guess is Gary is talking about the issue of matching a code to an address database, informing users of their code and adding codes for new premises.

    Reverse engineering is all very well, but then you have people choosing their own codes, fraught with danger. (errors, selecting code for next doors garden because its an easier code than your house)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭deckstunt


    conolan wrote: »
    My guess is Gary is talking about the issue of matching a code to an address database, informing users of their code and adding codes for new premises.

    Reverse engineering is all very well, but then you have people choosing their own codes, fraught with danger. (errors, selecting code for next doors garden because its an easier code than your house)

    I could be wrong on this but I thought Gary's Loc8 did require users to input their address details and then pick a code to match. Its been a while since I used it but that's how I thought it worked.

    No doubt Gary will clarify.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭ForiegnNational


    deckstunt wrote: »
    I could be wrong on this but I thought Gary's Loc8 did require users to input their address details and then pick a code to match. Its been a while since I used it but that's how I thought it worked.

    No doubt Gary will clarify.

    From memory you could use an address lookup, or a drag & drop cross-hairs on the map. I had to use the latter, as the address resolution mechanism couldn't find my house!

    At the end of the day, it came down to a lat/long encoding. Which is perfect, and with 8 digits does identify every property (and even the sheds at the end of the garden) perfectly, but is therefore relatively easy to reverse engineer.

    The only level of complexity is when you use allocate specific address ranges to an area, such as conolan has done with iCode6. But even that is relatively easy to calculate back.

    This is not a criticism of any mechanism, merely a clarification that the site will need "constant maintenance and support"


  • Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭steve-o


    TBH, conolan, any attempt to tie into the existing Dublin postal districts is a bad idea. An Post districts are an old flawed concept because they are centred around where An Post happens to have a sorting office. If An Post changes the sorting office that handles the mail for an address, the postal address needs to change. A postal code should be 1) permanent and 2) not related in any way to how one company currently organises itself, neither of which are fulfilled by An Post postal districts. Tying in to the An Post scheme is tying your scheme to the past.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭deckstunt


    steve-o wrote: »
    TBH, conolan, any attempt to tie into the existing Dublin postal districts is a bad idea. An Post districts are an old flawed concept because they are centred around where An Post happens to have a sorting office. If An Post changes the sorting office that handles the mail for an address, the postal address needs to change. A postal code should be 1) permanent and 2) not related in any way to how one company currently organises itself, neither of which are fulfilled by An Post postal districts. Tying in to the An Post scheme is tying your scheme to the past.

    I totally agree. I cant see why the Dublin postal districts and postcodes have to be linked - it just confuses the whole issue and adds a massive political headache. Especially when people in the likes of D4 would rather give away an arm than their D4 address.

    I think the postal districts should be viewed simply as a name and completely ignored regarding address location.

    So Mrs Murphy in D4 can still use her 'D4' address: Mrs Murphy, 21 A Street, Donnybrook, Dublin 4, XXXX, Ireland. [where XXXX is the actual postcode that utilities, and service providers will use to find the location.]

    Everyone's happy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    steve-o wrote: »
    TBH, conolan, any attempt to tie into the existing Dublin postal districts is a bad idea. An Post districts are an old flawed concept because they are centred around where An Post happens to have a sorting office. If An Post changes the sorting office that handles the mail for an address, the postal address needs to change. A postal code should be 1) permanent and 2) not related in any way to how one company currently organises itself, neither of which are fulfilled by An Post postal districts. Tying in to the An Post scheme is tying your scheme to the past.

    Obviously the reason for using the existing districts is familiarity, making it more likely that people will use a postcode.
    If An Post change their districts, they'll have to do it on the basis on the new postcode. The district numbers will become irrelevant.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    deckstunt wrote: »
    So Mrs Murphy in D4 can still use her 'D4' address: Mrs Murphy, 21 A Street, Donnybrook, Dublin 4, XXXX, Ireland. [where XXXX is the actual postcode that utilities, and service providers will use to find the location.]

    Under my scheme Mrs. Murphy would be
    21 A Street
    Donnybrook
    Dublin 4xxxx


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭deckstunt


    conolan wrote: »
    Under my scheme Mrs. Murphy would be
    21 A Street
    Donnybrook
    Dublin 4xxxx

    I don't think that's a good idea. I think 'Dublin 4' and the post code should be separate entities.

    Like :

    Mrs Murphy
    21 A Street
    Donnybrook
    Dublin 4
    xxxx

    Mrs Murphy
    21 A Street
    Cobh
    Cork
    xxxx

    Mrs Murphy
    Townland
    Co Galway
    xxxx


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    How to write the address is important if a postcode is to catch on, something that I'm not sure any of the postcode ideas have properly addressed.

    In France, the format is pretty strict. For example:
    M. Dupont
    14 Rue de la Paix
    75002 PARIS

    This is short, easily remembered, and easily conveyed. It could work in Ireland too:
    Mr. Murphy
    23 Baggot St Lwr
    Dublin 2 30G5

    Or, similarly:
    Mr. Murphy
    23 Baggot St Lwr
    Dublin
    NN5-01-ZR7

    This is the first time that I've written them out. TBH, I don't like them. I understand that aesthetics are not the absolute priority, but I think they should be taken into consideration. The French format is simple enough, but not particularly effective as each code covers a relatively large area. The "iCode6" doesn't do it for me because there isn't uniformity. Both of the above examples aren't particularly appealing to me because of mixed letters and digits.

    For me, something like 4120-0386 works (note: I like the dashes). Even if letters had to be used, it could be in the format of NDXR-4207, which would take pride of place at the bottom of the address. Mixing letters and digits is jarring, for me at least. The above example could be rendered like so:
    Mr. Murphy
    23 Baggot St Lwr
    Dublin
    LDXR-4207

    Maybe it's just me, but that's easier on the eye.

    I understand that detail would be lost by not using base-36 or 34, but I believe that such a proposal would garner less criticism. The only problem now: figuring out such a system! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Aard wrote: »
    Or, similarly:
    Mr. Murphy
    23 Baggot St Lwr
    Dublin
    NN5-01-ZR7
    :)

    There is a reason for the way the Loc8 Code is constructed -

    NN5 is a Zone, NN5-ZR7 is a locality and the full code the location - this aids memorising, recognition and shortening in certain circumstances. The dashes are essential for use as a URL www.loc8code.com/NN5-01-ZR7 and the whole package is chsoen so that it is imedaitaely recognisiable, positively identifiable by software or scanning devices and not confusable with other ID Numbers/Codes that may appear from time to time. More Info here: http://www.myloc8ion.com/help#2

    Loc8 Codes are planned for use without changing any part of an existing address.

    The means by which Loc8 Codes are delivered to the public will vary depending on whether they are elective or a National Address Code.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    garydubh wrote: »
    The means by which Loc8 Codes are delivered to the public will vary depending on whether they are elective or a National Address Code.

    I think elective is dead in the water. There will either be a national address/post code or confusion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    I think elective is dead in the water. There will either be a national address/post code or confusion.
    Elective is what exists now Conolan... Loc8 is in place an in use as an elective system - used by those who take the benefit of the time and fuel efficiencies it gives
    .
    A National Postcode was supposed to have been in place by Jan 2008 - so lets not get carried away!!! Perhaps the ECB/IMF will not want to pay for an Irish National Postcode!!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭AndrewMc


    garydubh wrote: »
    There is a reason for the way the Loc8 Code is constructed -

    NN5 is a Zone, NN5-ZR7 is a locality and the full code the location - this aids memorising, recognition and shortening in certain circumstances.

    I'm curious why you chose to put the "least significant" part in the middle, rather than the end. Would the general public not find it more straightforward if they could stop at the next hyphen?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    AndrewMc wrote: »
    I'm curious why you chose to put the "least significant" part in the middle, rather than the end. Would the general public not find it more straightforward if they could stop at the next hyphen?

    Good Question..

    the answer is related to the fact that a Loc8 Code is actually only 7 Characters but an 8th Character is added to check all the rest. In the nature of such "checker" characters they are normally last for very good technical reasons.

    As Loc8 is designed to allow users truncate to 6 characters (a Locality) it would be very difficualt to tell the general public to "Drop the 2nd and 3rd last characters" Instead the "least significant" characters (always numbers) are very visually obviously placed between two dashes in the exact centre of the code and the "general public" can be very easily told "Drop the bit in the middle - between the dashes" - no problem understanding or recognising!!!

    This and other features are the result of 5 years of research and 2 years field testing, feedback and iteration - tested by humans for humans!!!

    Did you know also that a Loc8 Code can never be all numbers or all letters like the other two codes mentioned here - a very important feature if it is to be immediately identifiable and recognisable;- to humans and to software or scaning devices. IA Loc8 Code should be placed after the County in the address but if placed anywhere it can be absolutely identified without confusion!!!

    Hope this helps...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    garydubh wrote: »
    .... the "least significant" characters (always numbers) ....

    That's the really neat part of loc8. I'll scratch my head on that one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    That's the really neat part of loc8. I'll scratch my head on that one.

    Thanks Conolan - appreciate the positive feedback on Loc8!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    Have a new proposal based on county prefixes. See new post for details.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 RockyTwoArms


    personally I feel the whole idea of post codes is accuacy and compatability thus limiting the number of digits or limiting the company producing the codes is very irresponsible. why not have a co-ordinate based code, maybe with one or two digit prefix to reduce the number of digits;

    One Digit Prefix
    Seeing as ITM is supposedly the standard co-ordinate system for ireland;
    Easting range=400,000-800,000
    Northing range=500,000-100,000
    Taking a 100,000 meter grid divide the country into A-T or A-R (leaving out first and last square) (similar to old ING) then digits to give location in that grid
    M-568-576 - approximately 100m
    M-5685-5769 - approximately 10m
    M-56855-57698 - approximately 1m
    M-568551-576984- approximately .1m

    OR

    Use Lat-Long
    Easting Range=-11 to -5
    Northing range=51 to 56
    taking 1 degree grid divide into A-Y squares (leaving out two top left and two bottom right)the use decimal degrees to define the location;
    C-3248-5462 - approximately 11m
    C-32481-54624 - approximately 1.1m
    C-324813-546245- approximately .11m

    Two Digit Prefix
    Use a 36 charactor list to indicate easting (a-z and 0-9) (420000-770000), then define an additional 10 charactors for the northing for example; (,*,!,),{,{,<,>?,+ (510000-970000) Thus you have 10km grid in two digits, then use ITM co-ordinates for sub 100m accuracy.

    MZ-13-32 - approximately 100m
    MZ-137-323 - approximately 10m
    MZ-1378-3234 - approximately 1m
    MZ-13783-32342 - approximately .1m

    of course you could just divide the ITM co-ordinate extents sort of (349920m X 453600m) into a 36X36 grid, then 36X36 grid then 27X35 grid then you have 10m square grid in only 6 digits.
    h3om4h

    Anyone who has a sat nav (most people will soon have, even on cheap phones) could get their code quickly. A hard copy of the grid system could be published so people could find their code off-line.

    All the current systems involve a very proprietary translation system. would it not just be easier to use pure lat longs or ITM????

    Regardless the tender is now on e-tenders so that we pay some large company or quango (or both - loc8 , obviously implementation will be done by using osi polygons for buildings and overlaying the grid, unless the osi are backing two horses any other tenderer will have to pay for this data) to make a proprietary system the could be thought up over a lunch break of your average person.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Rocky,

    not sure where you are coming from on this...

    But Loc8 Code is based on ITM grid - except two concepts must be added to your proposal:

    1. Cannot be derived from multiple sources - so pure ITM can be calculated for any location from several sources - so you have potential for errors and accuracy issues depending on the quality of the source used.

    2. No point in presenting someone with a set of numerals that could be a phone number or a reference number or a multitude of other things - must be immediately identifable as the implemented code and should have some error checking built in to identify if major errors are made. (especially as many will depend on it)

    I agree any intended code must be based on Grid ( which in turn is based on Geographic Coordinates - so whether you start with ITM or Lat/long is irrelevant - they are all mathematically related) but no point in throwing grid references out to the general public - too many potential problems. How do I know - well I have been teaching/working in disciplines that use coordinates (ITM, IG, Lat/Long, UTM, Local etc etc for the last 31 years so I understand the difficulties and the problems that arise)
    So Loc8 Codes take Grid and change it to a robust format that people can use without the potenial for error and satisfy the many other requirements of a publicly useable code which very often are omitted in consideration of other systems that seek to copy the Loc8 geocode approach.

    What people forget is that there is not just one specification to look at - i.e. the number of characters - any public code must satisfy multiple other specifications which must be set before designing the code.
    No good if a design only conisders the number of characters and nothing related to the intrensic elements that are also necessary.

    As for Quangos - Loc8 Code Ltd is no "Quango" it is new start-up company formed out of another small professional GPS company - GPS Ireland - both are privately owned and based in Crosshaven in Cork.

    Loc8 Code is currently an elective system. Roll out of Loc8 Code as a "national" system would contain many aspects that Loc8 Code would not really be sharing with potential copycats at this moment in time!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 RockyTwoArms


    My appologies on the "quango" statement, I had initially though OSi were doing more than providing mapping. However the connection to a proprietary GPS company for me is not a welcome start as it is currently the case that the gulf left from the lack of a National system leads to people being encouraged to use restricted translation systems such as loc8. I appreciate that you will defend your company and the hours put into creating a system but I do feel that promoting loc8 is premature and destructive pending a National system.

    Returning to the original topic I can see disadvantages of using county/city prefix, though it is a good logical check it may become very difficult to regulate and easy to mix up towns or accomodate expansion of town boundaries. Though the simple map interface is very quick and transparent.

    I accept that it is difficult to regulate personal error if a pure co-ordinate based system is used but if lat longs are used there is broad agreement between major sources (unpublished OSi ITM translation is another matter)

    In relation to accuaracy i think the issues is location accuracy vs database accuracy, I feel both icode6 and loc8 have fallen between the stools in this respect;
    As outlined i would be in favour of a co-ordinated base system that is open source but with 6m accuracy comes grave responsibility as every property now has 100s of post codes.
    However if the arguement that a single source is only allowed assign codes due to the need for regulation is followed then a 1km grid should be part of the refference and then each property number in sequence within the grid as it is registered. This would be the most stringent way to implement the system.

    Ultimately current state bodies should be able to introduce a post code system. If this transpires to be the case unfortunately only OSi have the access to information to do the work. They could rapidly combine the land registry database, an post database and cross refference both with their polygons and generate centre node points to be used for a grid based post code. then ideally post codes could then be assign during the now manditory land registry process. I imagine this would get 90% of the post codes assigned in a unique fashion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    In relation to accuaracy i think the issues is location accuracy vs database accuracy, I feel both icode6 and loc8 have fallen between the stools in this respect;
    As outlined i would be in favour of a co-ordinated base system that is open source but with 6m accuracy comes grave responsibility as every property now has 100s of post codes.

    Most domestic building will have 1-6 unique points when we use a system based on lat/long to 4 decimal places. Unfortunately, 3 decimal places is not accurate enough. Wish there was a way to have 3andahalf decimal places.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10 sovereign


    Thanks everyone for the very interesting debate.

    I agree with the idea of a just a building entrance location code similar to loc8 or icode6 and putting say an apartment number on a different field of the address. It does not seem sensible to be trying to tie unique addresses to rooms or cubicles within a building. Office layouts change regularly and post is often delivered to a central location anyway.

    I also agree with Aard that the aesthetics are important and it is jarring to mix too many letters with numbers. It makes the postcode harder to remember - but some slight mixing is surely necessary for a precise building code?

    I also agree with dmeehan that it should be a system that would be in some way understandable, useful and therefore more memorable by end users and organisations. It could be useful if say the first part of the code identified the region/area.

    I wonder if a sequence like XNN-XNNNN, where X represents a letter and N a digit, could work? (eg C24-J3426)

    We could allocate the first letter to each county - obvious ones are C - Cork, L - Limerick, X - Wexford etc I'm afraid some counties would have to make do with the remaining letters - eg E for Clare.

    The next two digits could identify a small region based on the ITM or possibly some other grid.

    Once those regions are agreed and published on maps etc it would make the first part of the code understandable to users and useful to organisations like the HSE etc.

    So the question then is: Can a compression algorithm be found to encode the precise details of the building location with the remaining letter and 4 digits?

    If not I would nearly prefer to use a code of 9 charaacters and digits like XNNN-XNNNN to enable the code to be location based but still some way understandable and memorable.


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