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iCode6 - New postcode proposal

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭AndrewMc


    garydubh wrote: »
    There is a reason for the way the Loc8 Code is constructed -

    NN5 is a Zone, NN5-ZR7 is a locality and the full code the location - this aids memorising, recognition and shortening in certain circumstances.

    I'm curious why you chose to put the "least significant" part in the middle, rather than the end. Would the general public not find it more straightforward if they could stop at the next hyphen?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    AndrewMc wrote: »
    I'm curious why you chose to put the "least significant" part in the middle, rather than the end. Would the general public not find it more straightforward if they could stop at the next hyphen?

    Good Question..

    the answer is related to the fact that a Loc8 Code is actually only 7 Characters but an 8th Character is added to check all the rest. In the nature of such "checker" characters they are normally last for very good technical reasons.

    As Loc8 is designed to allow users truncate to 6 characters (a Locality) it would be very difficualt to tell the general public to "Drop the 2nd and 3rd last characters" Instead the "least significant" characters (always numbers) are very visually obviously placed between two dashes in the exact centre of the code and the "general public" can be very easily told "Drop the bit in the middle - between the dashes" - no problem understanding or recognising!!!

    This and other features are the result of 5 years of research and 2 years field testing, feedback and iteration - tested by humans for humans!!!

    Did you know also that a Loc8 Code can never be all numbers or all letters like the other two codes mentioned here - a very important feature if it is to be immediately identifiable and recognisable;- to humans and to software or scaning devices. IA Loc8 Code should be placed after the County in the address but if placed anywhere it can be absolutely identified without confusion!!!

    Hope this helps...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    garydubh wrote: »
    .... the "least significant" characters (always numbers) ....

    That's the really neat part of loc8. I'll scratch my head on that one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    That's the really neat part of loc8. I'll scratch my head on that one.

    Thanks Conolan - appreciate the positive feedback on Loc8!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    Have a new proposal based on county prefixes. See new post for details.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 RockyTwoArms


    personally I feel the whole idea of post codes is accuacy and compatability thus limiting the number of digits or limiting the company producing the codes is very irresponsible. why not have a co-ordinate based code, maybe with one or two digit prefix to reduce the number of digits;

    One Digit Prefix
    Seeing as ITM is supposedly the standard co-ordinate system for ireland;
    Easting range=400,000-800,000
    Northing range=500,000-100,000
    Taking a 100,000 meter grid divide the country into A-T or A-R (leaving out first and last square) (similar to old ING) then digits to give location in that grid
    M-568-576 - approximately 100m
    M-5685-5769 - approximately 10m
    M-56855-57698 - approximately 1m
    M-568551-576984- approximately .1m

    OR

    Use Lat-Long
    Easting Range=-11 to -5
    Northing range=51 to 56
    taking 1 degree grid divide into A-Y squares (leaving out two top left and two bottom right)the use decimal degrees to define the location;
    C-3248-5462 - approximately 11m
    C-32481-54624 - approximately 1.1m
    C-324813-546245- approximately .11m

    Two Digit Prefix
    Use a 36 charactor list to indicate easting (a-z and 0-9) (420000-770000), then define an additional 10 charactors for the northing for example; (,*,!,),{,{,<,>?,+ (510000-970000) Thus you have 10km grid in two digits, then use ITM co-ordinates for sub 100m accuracy.

    MZ-13-32 - approximately 100m
    MZ-137-323 - approximately 10m
    MZ-1378-3234 - approximately 1m
    MZ-13783-32342 - approximately .1m

    of course you could just divide the ITM co-ordinate extents sort of (349920m X 453600m) into a 36X36 grid, then 36X36 grid then 27X35 grid then you have 10m square grid in only 6 digits.
    h3om4h

    Anyone who has a sat nav (most people will soon have, even on cheap phones) could get their code quickly. A hard copy of the grid system could be published so people could find their code off-line.

    All the current systems involve a very proprietary translation system. would it not just be easier to use pure lat longs or ITM????

    Regardless the tender is now on e-tenders so that we pay some large company or quango (or both - loc8 , obviously implementation will be done by using osi polygons for buildings and overlaying the grid, unless the osi are backing two horses any other tenderer will have to pay for this data) to make a proprietary system the could be thought up over a lunch break of your average person.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Rocky,

    not sure where you are coming from on this...

    But Loc8 Code is based on ITM grid - except two concepts must be added to your proposal:

    1. Cannot be derived from multiple sources - so pure ITM can be calculated for any location from several sources - so you have potential for errors and accuracy issues depending on the quality of the source used.

    2. No point in presenting someone with a set of numerals that could be a phone number or a reference number or a multitude of other things - must be immediately identifable as the implemented code and should have some error checking built in to identify if major errors are made. (especially as many will depend on it)

    I agree any intended code must be based on Grid ( which in turn is based on Geographic Coordinates - so whether you start with ITM or Lat/long is irrelevant - they are all mathematically related) but no point in throwing grid references out to the general public - too many potential problems. How do I know - well I have been teaching/working in disciplines that use coordinates (ITM, IG, Lat/Long, UTM, Local etc etc for the last 31 years so I understand the difficulties and the problems that arise)
    So Loc8 Codes take Grid and change it to a robust format that people can use without the potenial for error and satisfy the many other requirements of a publicly useable code which very often are omitted in consideration of other systems that seek to copy the Loc8 geocode approach.

    What people forget is that there is not just one specification to look at - i.e. the number of characters - any public code must satisfy multiple other specifications which must be set before designing the code.
    No good if a design only conisders the number of characters and nothing related to the intrensic elements that are also necessary.

    As for Quangos - Loc8 Code Ltd is no "Quango" it is new start-up company formed out of another small professional GPS company - GPS Ireland - both are privately owned and based in Crosshaven in Cork.

    Loc8 Code is currently an elective system. Roll out of Loc8 Code as a "national" system would contain many aspects that Loc8 Code would not really be sharing with potential copycats at this moment in time!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 RockyTwoArms


    My appologies on the "quango" statement, I had initially though OSi were doing more than providing mapping. However the connection to a proprietary GPS company for me is not a welcome start as it is currently the case that the gulf left from the lack of a National system leads to people being encouraged to use restricted translation systems such as loc8. I appreciate that you will defend your company and the hours put into creating a system but I do feel that promoting loc8 is premature and destructive pending a National system.

    Returning to the original topic I can see disadvantages of using county/city prefix, though it is a good logical check it may become very difficult to regulate and easy to mix up towns or accomodate expansion of town boundaries. Though the simple map interface is very quick and transparent.

    I accept that it is difficult to regulate personal error if a pure co-ordinate based system is used but if lat longs are used there is broad agreement between major sources (unpublished OSi ITM translation is another matter)

    In relation to accuaracy i think the issues is location accuracy vs database accuracy, I feel both icode6 and loc8 have fallen between the stools in this respect;
    As outlined i would be in favour of a co-ordinated base system that is open source but with 6m accuracy comes grave responsibility as every property now has 100s of post codes.
    However if the arguement that a single source is only allowed assign codes due to the need for regulation is followed then a 1km grid should be part of the refference and then each property number in sequence within the grid as it is registered. This would be the most stringent way to implement the system.

    Ultimately current state bodies should be able to introduce a post code system. If this transpires to be the case unfortunately only OSi have the access to information to do the work. They could rapidly combine the land registry database, an post database and cross refference both with their polygons and generate centre node points to be used for a grid based post code. then ideally post codes could then be assign during the now manditory land registry process. I imagine this would get 90% of the post codes assigned in a unique fashion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    In relation to accuaracy i think the issues is location accuracy vs database accuracy, I feel both icode6 and loc8 have fallen between the stools in this respect;
    As outlined i would be in favour of a co-ordinated base system that is open source but with 6m accuracy comes grave responsibility as every property now has 100s of post codes.

    Most domestic building will have 1-6 unique points when we use a system based on lat/long to 4 decimal places. Unfortunately, 3 decimal places is not accurate enough. Wish there was a way to have 3andahalf decimal places.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 sovereign


    Thanks everyone for the very interesting debate.

    I agree with the idea of a just a building entrance location code similar to loc8 or icode6 and putting say an apartment number on a different field of the address. It does not seem sensible to be trying to tie unique addresses to rooms or cubicles within a building. Office layouts change regularly and post is often delivered to a central location anyway.

    I also agree with Aard that the aesthetics are important and it is jarring to mix too many letters with numbers. It makes the postcode harder to remember - but some slight mixing is surely necessary for a precise building code?

    I also agree with dmeehan that it should be a system that would be in some way understandable, useful and therefore more memorable by end users and organisations. It could be useful if say the first part of the code identified the region/area.

    I wonder if a sequence like XNN-XNNNN, where X represents a letter and N a digit, could work? (eg C24-J3426)

    We could allocate the first letter to each county - obvious ones are C - Cork, L - Limerick, X - Wexford etc I'm afraid some counties would have to make do with the remaining letters - eg E for Clare.

    The next two digits could identify a small region based on the ITM or possibly some other grid.

    Once those regions are agreed and published on maps etc it would make the first part of the code understandable to users and useful to organisations like the HSE etc.

    So the question then is: Can a compression algorithm be found to encode the precise details of the building location with the remaining letter and 4 digits?

    If not I would nearly prefer to use a code of 9 charaacters and digits like XNNN-XNNNN to enable the code to be location based but still some way understandable and memorable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,817 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Yes, easy. You just use three digits to break down to ED or small area, a further digit or two to number roads within that area, and then building numbers or distance along the road.

    I cannot see what is memorable about the letter 'E' for Clare.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 sovereign


    I was thinking of a code like loc8 that can pinpoint any location to 5 or 6 metres and translate to coordinates for a GPS device.

    Regarding the E for Clare - I still remember that "IP" was the licence plate sequence used for Kilkenny. I'll grant you that don't remember those of other counties...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,817 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    That will work fine for this. All you need is a map of all the roads in Ireland. The GPS unit would have to have this information on board anyway, in order to be any use to actually get to the property.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    That will work fine for this. All you need is a map of all the roads in Ireland. The GPS unit would have to have this information on board anyway, in order to be any use to actually get to the property.

    Remember, it's not just about GPS. It's databases of addresses, service planning, logistics etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 sovereign


    So conolan - I have have not done the detailed maths here - but a first glance would suggest that surely something like XXN-XNNN would at least get you to within 10 metres of any building for any county?

    i.e. X - a County Code letter
    XN - a letter and number identifying a 5km x 5km grid in the county

    X - a letter representing a 1km x 1km grid within the 5km grid
    NN and NN - x and y coordinates to 10m

    Am I missing something - would this not work for a large county like galway or cork etc? Would it satisfy the planning, logistics requirement?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    sovereign wrote: »
    Am I missing something - would this not work for a large county like galway or cork etc? Would it satisfy the planning, logistics requirement?

    If you look at http://www.icode6.com/county.htm you'll see something along the lines you are describing. Cork, Galway and other counties have to be subdivided, eg. Cork has 3 regions, CA, C, CT going from east to west.

    An example code for a building in the centre of Bantry is CT KA TC 99

    Still has the accuracy of 4 decimal places but nothing to make town and cities codes memorable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 sovereign


    The county version of iCode6 may not look the prettiest or be the most memorable but it is certainly a good option because of its precision and also the ability to have recognisable subdivisions in all areas.


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