iCode6 - New postcode proposal

conolan

Having become frustrated by the existing proposals for postcodes, I wondered whether something that people could understand might be possible.

I'm in favour of an accurate system based on lat & long to 4 decimal places, but codes with 7 or 8 characters are hard to remember. Particularly when there is no attempt to relate the codes to city/town names and Dublin postal districts.

So I'm proposing iCode6 and I welcome POLITE feedback on this thread.
It's not perfect, it's a concept, not a fully working solution. There are inaccuracies in borders for Dublin postal districts.

See www.icode6.com for more.
Registration no longer required

EvilMonkey

Why do you have to create an account to see the map/codes?

conolan

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Why do you have to create an account to see the map/codes?

So I know who's looking.

celticbest

conolan wrote: »

So I know who's looking.

:eek: I WON'T BE.....................

JohnC.

Indeed. If you are not willing to let people have a look without having to register, many simply will not bother. I know I won't. I don't know who I'm giving my details to, how they are stored or how they may be used. There is nothing on the site to indicate any of this. It's not a good start.

Aard

YAPCA


(yet another postcode attempt)

sdanseo

Fail.

Jehuty42

You seem to be explicitly blocking GuerrillaMail addresses. Bad form.

brianwalshcork

Irish Post Code are the new buses, none for years then three come along at once.

conolan

I'll open it for everyone without registration next week, when industry folk have had their preview.

Meantime, some features
* 6 characters
* Accurate to 6M
* Each building has unique iCode
* Existing Dublin postcodes part of iCode
* All cities start with relevant letter:
Cork, Limerick, Kilkenny, Galway
* Major towns start with relevant letter:
eg. Arklow, Bray, Carlow ... Tralee, Sligo

L1011

conolan wrote: »

* Major towns start with relevant letter:
eg. Arklow, Bray, Carlow ... Tralee, Sligo

If Arklow has A, what about Athlone? Bigger town...

conolan

MYOB wrote: »

If Arklow has A, what about Athlone? Bigger town...

A2. They are all listed on the site. Not every town can have an ideal prefix but it beats the hell out of the other systems.

thund3rbird_

conolan wrote: »

* All cities start with relevant letter:
Cork, Limerick, Kilkenny , Galway

slightly off topic I know but you are proposing a postcode system and you can't even name the cities in Ireland.
Your location is Dunmore East & yet you exclude Waterford????

busman

conolan wrote: »

Having become frustrated by the existing proposals for postcodes, I wondered whether something that people could understand might be possible.

I'm in favour of an accurate system based on lat & long to 4 decimal places, but codes with 7 or 8 characters are hard to remember. Particularly when there is no attempt to relate the codes to city/town names and Dublin postal districts.

Ok, seeing as this is a new thread I'll give my option
Back to basics, why would I need a postcode?

For me the biggest issue is deliveries :mad:
I live in north Cork, only about 10 miles from Mallow but my house is a mile down a road, that is of a road, that is off the main road.
To make it more difficult the townsland is divided in 2 by the railway!

All I want is a simple code that can be put on packages so that the fecking
delivery driver does not have to ring me every 5 min. because he is lost!

I don't care if it starts with A B C or Z or by looking at it you know that
it is the 3rd house on the right with the blue door after the big white house on the left!

I have a phone number now that is 10 digits so what is the problem with a postcode being 8 digits?

conolan

busman wrote: »

I have a phone number now that is 10 digits so what is the problem with a postcode being 8 digits?

But wouldn't 6 characters that has the same accuracy as the others (7 & 8 characters) be easier to remember?

conolan

Unrestricted access available to the map http://www.icode6.com/map.asp

Jayuu

Seems fairly straightforward although I am interested in how you decided upon which towns would have first letter designation and which wouldn't. I can see lots of places complaining about not have a first letter designation because of a perceived lack of prestige. I'm not saying that I agree with them but I could see it happening.

I am assuming that this is just a location reference code so apartment blocks would have the same postcode. If this is not the case how do you work out relevant codes?

deckstunt

I think it looks very good. One thing I don't like is the way Dublin has a five digit digit code while every where else has six. I think you should make them all the same size.

Why don't you make the project 'open source' and make it freely available. Like Open Street Map. Like-minded people might join your efforts

If people (and industry) know that its permanently, freely available it will have a great chance of catching on. A bit like the way Open Street Map has taken off. If it got enough community support it could become the de facto post code for Ireland.

The way the government is handling the official one we'll never it. And while the likes of loc8 is technically good, the fact that its only available for Garmin products is going to limit its uptake.

conolan

Jayuu wrote: »

I am assuming that this is just a location reference code so apartment blocks would have the same postcode. If this is not the case how do you work out relevant codes?

Yes, just pinpoints the door. I think that's the only sensible way. Anything more and the complexity rises.

As for which towns get which codes, that was just my choice. Easily changed, just a few lines of code. Someone already pointed out that Athlone is bigger than Arklow, might switch them.

conolan

deckstunt wrote: »

Why don't you make the project 'open source' and make it freely available. Like Open Street Map. Like-minded people might join your efforts

I'd love to have input from others, but I doubt it take off on its own. Trying to get it in front of PA Consulting and others over the next week. Welcome any publicity.

deckstunt

conolan wrote: »

I'd love to have input from others, but I doubt it take off on its own.

Well, I didn't just mean the input of others. I mean all these attempts to set up a commercial, for-profit, money making post code IMHO isn't going cut it.

You may get some business that are willing to pay to use a system that suits there needs but the majority of people aren't going to pay to use one on the GPS/smart phone or website.

I think an open source post code could quite plausibly take off. The Irish section of Open Street Map has quite a community of committed volunteers. My guess is an open source post code project could easily tap in to a community like that.

..but I'm getting the vibes open source isn't what you had in mind

conolan

When I started this a few weeks ago I had no idea where it would go. No problem with open source. It's only a concept and a few lines of javascript and some polygons. I can open the source but what could anyone do with it. This will live or die depending on a decision on an Irish official postcode. The country doesn't need rival systems. One is hard enough for the public.

deckstunt

It's just from my perspective (as an occasional GPS user) while Loc8 code is technically good it certainly ain't free to use now (its © and Patent Pending) and god knows what they could charge in the future.

Users have to pay to use/license it. I think its crazy that kind of model should be competing to become a national post code.

To me the obvious solution is to take a community based, open source approach. Gift your idea to the people of Ireland and make a real difference.

conolan wrote: »

This will live or die depending on a decision on an Irish official postcode.

I agree if an offical one is implimented it will kill all the others. (Another reason why not to have a profit/commercial motive)

However the way the economy is and with the current political climate, and the fact the previous government with all its resources hasn't implemented a code, I don't see an official code happening anytime soon.

So I think setting up a wiki-community, open source type project could easily do the deal.

"opencode.ie" or .org or something along those lines. The key point for me is that if everyone: private companies, public bodies, private users, web developers, know that the code and its algorithms and data base is free and always will be free to use then I think it stands a real chance of becoming the de facto Irish Postcode.

It's just a thought

garydubh

Just a small technical point Conolan... 4 decimal places of Lat/long as an origin will not guarantee 6m position accuracy across the country!!! That is why Loc8 is 7 characters plus 1 additional one used as a checker code to make it 8 - also essential in a modern system to be used in safety critcal applications.

There are many other deficiencies in your system Conolan - but we will leave them for another day!

And what about the other things you were broadcasting about in earlier posts - looks like you have forgotten about all those things now in your eagerness to make untested claims to the world!

Especially, what about adding names of places to your code - where did that idea go - if you are doing it for some city centres (not names at all but just first letters where C could mean Cork, Carlow, Cavan, Clare and none at all for Dublin) why are you not doing it for every town in the country - was this not one of your criticims of others in earlier posts?

Good luck with it......

deckstunt

garydubh wrote: »

Just a small technical point Conolan... 4 decimal places of Lat/long as an origin will not guarantee 6m position accuracy across the country!!! That is why Loc8 is 7 characters plus 1 additional one used as a checker code to make it 8 - also essential in a modern system to be used in safety critcal applications.

There are many other deficiencies in your system Conolan - but we will leave them for another day!

And what about the other things you were broadcasting about in earlier posts - looks like you have forgotten about all those things now in your eagerness to make untested claims to the world!

Especially, what about adding names of places to your code - where did that idea go - if you are doing it for some city centres (not names at all but just first letters where C could mean Cork, Carlow, Cavan, Clare and none at all for Dublin) why are you not doing it for every town in the country - was this not one of your criticims of others in earlier posts?

Good luck with it......

In the interest of transparency I think its worth pointing out that Gary is the creator of Loc8 code.

deckstunt

And just to clarify (as a private message from gary reminded me), the fact the project is an open source, comunity based type project doesn't stop any one from using it and making money off it in commercial products.

Just like OpenStreetMap allows companies to fully and freely access the database and then comercialise the product and make money from it with no strings attached.

That would be the whole idea.

My point isn't meant to be anti-business or anti-money making at all. It's simply to stop a single commercial company being the single "gate keeper" to the Irish Postcode. To stop a monopoly, thats all

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

And what about the other things you were broadcasting about in earlier posts - looks like you have forgotten about all those things now in your eagerness to make untested claims to the world!

My eagerness comes from a realisation that we're on a track to a decision finally. And while gocode and loc8 are both technically strong, both have been developed without reference to things that people are familiar with.

It's going to be one hell of a struggle to get Irish people to adopt address codes. I want to make it easier, without sacrificing the accuracy inherent in both proposals.

iCode6 is of course untested. It's 4 weeks old. It's a broad proposal, a prototype, an alternative with a human dimension.

garydubh

deckstunt wrote: »

In the interest of transparency I think its worth pointing out that Gary is the creator of Loc8 code.

Check out boards.ie - who I am is well known - but who are you since we're on the subject?

garydubh

deckstunt wrote: »

It's just from my perspective (as an occasional GPS user) while Loc8 code is technically good it certainly ain't free to use now

This is a completely untrue statement - there is no cost to the user for having or using a Loc8 Code!!!

Loc8 Code is built-in and ready to go on all popular Garmin satnavs and will be available for other manufacturers devices very shortly. If you have an older Garmin device then yes there is an upgrade cost - a once off which covers the cost of retro updating the firmware.;- nothing unusual about that really.

Everything that is published has a copyright for your info Deckstunt so nothing unusual about that either and why is it that you object to Loc8 Code applying for a patent for the fruit of its labour? Contrary to what you might suggest, neither patent nor copyright are an indication of any wrong doing or ill-intent.
Hell - even boards.ie has a copyright notice on the bottom of this page...

Perhaps Deckstunt you might let us know what your real agenda is and refrain from publishing misleading comment!

garydubh

deckstunt wrote: »

And while the likes of loc8 is technically good, the fact that its only available for Garmin products is going to limit its uptake.

Yet again this is an untrue statement; Loc8 Code is curently available on Garmin devices but is not limited to them - it will shortly be available on multiple other manufacturer devices. This has been clearly stated on here many times, on the Loc8 Code Website and in multiple media reports.

Deckstunt should refarin from making mischieviously untrue statements.

garydubh

deckstunt wrote: »

And just to clarify (as a private message from gary reminded me), the fact the project is an open source, comunity based type project doesn't stop any one from using it and making money off it in commercial products.

Just like OpenStreetMap allows companies to fully and freely access the database and then comercialise the product and make money from it with no strings attached.

That would be the whole idea.

My point isn't meant to be anti-business or anti-money making at all. It's simply to stop a single commercial company being the single "gate keeper" to the Irish Postcode. To stop a monopoly, thats all

So Deckstunt - you obviously do not understand anything about a national postcode! Loc8 Code is currently an elective system - used by those who can save themsvlves time and money in the course of their daily activity. If it became a national postcode then its method of delivery would change and, just so you know;- whoever gets the contract to implement the National Postcode will be given a 10 year exclusive license!

Impelementing this type of system is complicated and expensive - not something that you throw out there and walk away - it has to be supported and maintained - so not exactly the type of thing you fire and forget as open source.

Loc8 is something that emergency services will have to rely on to save people's lives - so a little more involved that you seem to understand Deckstunt

conolan

When a final decision is made about the national postcode, loc8 and gocode will be irrelevant. My understanding is that PA Consulting have been told to get a system that has a geocode at its heart, but there is a desire to have an ABC xxx type system.

So my guess is that the final system will incorporate many of the principles of locb and gocode but HOPEFULLY some human-readable element.

My suggestion isn't the answer, it's only 4 weeks old, untested etc. But it is a demonstration of the fact that a geocode and some human readable part can be combined for some areas. Perhaps someone else will come up with something even better.

GerardKeating

garydubh wrote: »

Just a small technical point Conolan... 4 decimal places of Lat/long as an origin will not guarantee 6m position accuracy across the country!!! That is why Loc8 is 7 characters plus 1 additional one used as a checker code to make it 8 - also essential in a modern system to be used in safety critcal applications.

There are many other deficiencies in your system Conolan - but we will leave them for another day!

And what about the other things you were broadcasting about in earlier posts - looks like you have forgotten about all those things now in your eagerness to make untested claims to the world!

Especially, what about adding names of places to your code - where did that idea go - if you are doing it for some city centres (not names at all but just first letters where C could mean Cork, Carlow, Cavan, Clare and none at all for Dublin) why are you not doing it for every town in the country - was this not one of your criticims of others in earlier posts?

Good luck with it......

One advantage (for me) of "Loc8" is that I could drill down to my (remote rural Galway) residence with the OSI maps they use, but could not with iCode, since Google maps omit the road Boreen I live on.

conolan

GerardKeating wrote: »

One advantage (for me) of "Loc8" is that I could drill down to my (remote rural Galway) residence with the OSI maps they use, but could not with iCode, since Google maps omit the road Boreen I live on.

My system on Google is purely a demo. This is a proposal, not the final solution. When we have a postcode, there will be a job of matching premises to codes. Hopefully people will not be asked to find their own postcode. That would be a disaster.

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

My understanding is that PA Consulting have been told to get a system that has a geocode at its heart, but there is a desire to have an ABC xxx type system..

Yes - Loc8 Code has been campaigning now for nearly 5 years to make sure that what is implemented is not just a code which brings you to the centre of 50 properties as was proposed in the basic ABC 123 model! I can assure you GPS Ireland and Loc8 has worked hard to ensure that now that you come to look at it Conolan that a geocode is acceptable - it was not before!

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

My system on Google is purely a demo. This is a proposal, not the final solution. When we have a postcode, there will be a job of matching premises to codes. Hopefully people will not be asked to find their own postcode. That would be a disaster.

Yes Loc8 has invested heavily in proving its system and making it useable with OSI/OSNI mapping even if there is no National Postcode - to Loc8 it is about what can be used now not what might be implemented in the future. (A National Postcode was supposed to be in place in Jan 2008 after all)

A Loc8 Code already exists for every address in the GeoDirectory but also detailed mapping is used on the Loc8 site for what is not in the GeoDirectory and the many 10's of thousands of destinations used every day that do not have addresses and are not in the GeoDirectory.

Loc8 is already released and in use - Loc8 was not waiting around for someone else to do all the preparatory work or for someone to offer the postcode prize before they committed investment and effort into delivering a working system.

Even if there is never a National Postcode (a real possibility due to budgetary constraints) - there is still Loc8 Code! I think Loc8 has put their money where their mouth is to be fair!

GerardKeating

conolan wrote: »

My system on Google is purely a demo. This is a proposal, not the final solution. When we have a postcode, there will be a job of matching premises to codes.

conolan wrote: »

Hopefully people will not be asked to find their own postcode. That would be a disaster.

Why, it appeals to my inner geek.

conolan wrote: »

We need postcodes that people can understand.

No we do not, we just need one that works, most people won't care about the actual system, they just want the letters/parcel/taxi/visitor to arrive.

deckstunt

garydubh wrote: »

why is it that you object to Loc8 Code applying for a patent for the fruit of its labour?

I don't object per se. I wanted to highlight the benefits of an open source type project. And to do that I highlighted the downside to a private system like Loc8. Because if Loca8 became the de facto post code for Ireland then Loca8 becomes the sole 'gate keeper' to the system and every one is then at Loc8's mercy. Great for Loca8- not so good for everyone else. That goes for any system, be it icode6, Loc8 or whoever.

garydubh wrote: »

So Deckstunt - you obviously do not understand anything about a national postcode!

Your right I don't, and never claimed to. The single point I wanted to make (to conolan) was that an open sourced community based, collaborative, wiki-type project, with some kind of Creative Commons type license could be very successful. I'm sorry if that put your nose out-of-joint. I think your (over) reaction may betray the fact that you see such a project as a threat to Loc8.

garydubh wrote: »

Perhaps Deckstunt you might let us know what your real agenda is and refrain from publishing misleading comment!

Must I have 'real agenda'? Can I not make my point without an ulterior motive?

ForiegnNational

garydubh wrote: »

Impelementing this type of system is complicated and expensive - not something that you throw out there and walk away - it has to be supported and maintained - so not exactly the type of thing you fire and forget as open source.

Actually, as you are simply encoding Lat/Long coordinates (an easy enough mechanism, as iCode6, my old ePostCode, etc prove), the only maintenance is to update the API on the site with any updates from OSI or GoogleMaps. Don't try and make it sound like a huge task.

I agree that the exclusive licence is very appealing, but I would expect a couple of days of reverse engineering could crack the encoding mechanism of any lat/long based system. Therefore there would have to be a legal hammer to stop everybody simply reverse engineering relatively straight forward code and once cracked, just like DVD encryption, you cannot change it (and hence peoples postcodes), so it will be freely available from then on.

This will be the biggest task for any company that is chosen, not the infrequent API updates.

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

Impelementing this type of system is complicated and expensive - not something that you throw out there and walk away - it has to be supported and maintained - so not exactly the type of thing you fire and forget as open source.

My guess is Gary is talking about the issue of matching a code to an address database, informing users of their code and adding codes for new premises.

Reverse engineering is all very well, but then you have people choosing their own codes, fraught with danger. (errors, selecting code for next doors garden because its an easier code than your house)

deckstunt

conolan wrote: »

My guess is Gary is talking about the issue of matching a code to an address database, informing users of their code and adding codes for new premises.

Reverse engineering is all very well, but then you have people choosing their own codes, fraught with danger. (errors, selecting code for next doors garden because its an easier code than your house)

I could be wrong on this but I thought Gary's Loc8 did require users to input their address details and then pick a code to match. Its been a while since I used it but that's how I thought it worked.

No doubt Gary will clarify.

ForiegnNational

deckstunt wrote: »

I could be wrong on this but I thought Gary's Loc8 did require users to input their address details and then pick a code to match. Its been a while since I used it but that's how I thought it worked.

No doubt Gary will clarify.

From memory you could use an address lookup, or a drag & drop cross-hairs on the map. I had to use the latter, as the address resolution mechanism couldn't find my house!

At the end of the day, it came down to a lat/long encoding. Which is perfect, and with 8 digits does identify every property (and even the sheds at the end of the garden) perfectly, but is therefore relatively easy to reverse engineer.

The only level of complexity is when you use allocate specific address ranges to an area, such as conolan has done with iCode6. But even that is relatively easy to calculate back.

This is not a criticism of any mechanism, merely a clarification that the site will need "constant maintenance and support"

steve-o

TBH, conolan, any attempt to tie into the existing Dublin postal districts is a bad idea. An Post districts are an old flawed concept because they are centred around where An Post happens to have a sorting office. If An Post changes the sorting office that handles the mail for an address, the postal address needs to change. A postal code should be 1) permanent and 2) not related in any way to how one company currently organises itself, neither of which are fulfilled by An Post postal districts. Tying in to the An Post scheme is tying your scheme to the past.

deckstunt

steve-o wrote: »

TBH, conolan, any attempt to tie into the existing Dublin postal districts is a bad idea. An Post districts are an old flawed concept because they are centred around where An Post happens to have a sorting office. If An Post changes the sorting office that handles the mail for an address, the postal address needs to change. A postal code should be 1) permanent and 2) not related in any way to how one company currently organises itself, neither of which are fulfilled by An Post postal districts. Tying in to the An Post scheme is tying your scheme to the past.

I totally agree. I cant see why the Dublin postal districts and postcodes have to be linked - it just confuses the whole issue and adds a massive political headache. Especially when people in the likes of D4 would rather give away an arm than their D4 address.

I think the postal districts should be viewed simply as a name and completely ignored regarding address location.

So Mrs Murphy in D4 can still use her 'D4' address: Mrs Murphy, 21 A Street, Donnybrook, Dublin 4, XXXX, Ireland. [where XXXX is the actual postcode that utilities, and service providers will use to find the location.]

Everyone's happy.

conolan

steve-o wrote: »

TBH, conolan, any attempt to tie into the existing Dublin postal districts is a bad idea. An Post districts are an old flawed concept because they are centred around where An Post happens to have a sorting office. If An Post changes the sorting office that handles the mail for an address, the postal address needs to change. A postal code should be 1) permanent and 2) not related in any way to how one company currently organises itself, neither of which are fulfilled by An Post postal districts. Tying in to the An Post scheme is tying your scheme to the past.

Obviously the reason for using the existing districts is familiarity, making it more likely that people will use a postcode.
If An Post change their districts, they'll have to do it on the basis on the new postcode. The district numbers will become irrelevant.

conolan

deckstunt wrote: »

So Mrs Murphy in D4 can still use her 'D4' address: Mrs Murphy, 21 A Street, Donnybrook, Dublin 4, XXXX, Ireland. [where XXXX is the actual postcode that utilities, and service providers will use to find the location.]

Under my scheme Mrs. Murphy would be
21 A Street
Donnybrook
Dublin 4xxxx

deckstunt

conolan wrote: »

Under my scheme Mrs. Murphy would be
21 A Street
Donnybrook
Dublin 4xxxx

I don't think that's a good idea. I think 'Dublin 4' and the post code should be separate entities.

Like :

Mrs Murphy
21 A Street
Donnybrook
Dublin 4
xxxx

Mrs Murphy
21 A Street
Cobh
Cork
xxxx

Mrs Murphy
Townland
Co Galway
xxxx

Aard

How to write the address is important if a postcode is to catch on, something that I'm not sure any of the postcode ideas have properly addressed.

In France, the format is pretty strict. For example:

M. Dupont
14 Rue de la Paix
75002 PARIS

This is short, easily remembered, and easily conveyed. It could work in Ireland too:

Mr. Murphy
23 Baggot St Lwr
Dublin 2 30G5

Or, similarly:

Mr. Murphy
23 Baggot St Lwr
Dublin
NN5-01-ZR7

This is the first time that I've written them out. TBH, I don't like them. I understand that aesthetics are not the absolute priority, but I think they should be taken into consideration. The French format is simple enough, but not particularly effective as each code covers a relatively large area. The "iCode6" doesn't do it for me because there isn't uniformity. Both of the above examples aren't particularly appealing to me because of mixed letters and digits.

For me, something like 4120-0386 works (note: I like the dashes). Even if letters had to be used, it could be in the format of NDXR-4207, which would take pride of place at the bottom of the address. Mixing letters and digits is jarring, for me at least. The above example could be rendered like so:

Mr. Murphy
23 Baggot St Lwr
Dublin
LDXR-4207

Maybe it's just me, but that's easier on the eye.

I understand that detail would be lost by not using base-36 or 34, but I believe that such a proposal would garner less criticism. The only problem now: figuring out such a system!

garydubh

Aard wrote: »

Or, similarly:

Mr. Murphy
23 Baggot St Lwr
Dublin
NN5-01-ZR7

There is a reason for the way the Loc8 Code is constructed -

NN5 is a Zone, NN5-ZR7 is a locality and the full code the location - this aids memorising, recognition and shortening in certain circumstances. The dashes are essential for use as a URL www.loc8code.com/NN5-01-ZR7 and the whole package is chsoen so that it is imedaitaely recognisiable, positively identifiable by software or scanning devices and not confusable with other ID Numbers/Codes that may appear from time to time. More Info here: http://www.myloc8ion.com/help#2

Loc8 Codes are planned for use without changing any part of an existing address.

The means by which Loc8 Codes are delivered to the public will vary depending on whether they are elective or a National Address Code.

conolan

garydubh wrote: »

The means by which Loc8 Codes are delivered to the public will vary depending on whether they are elective or a National Address Code.

I think elective is dead in the water. There will either be a national address/post code or confusion.

garydubh

conolan wrote: »

I think elective is dead in the water. There will either be a national address/post code or confusion.

Elective is what exists now Conolan... Loc8 is in place an in use as an elective system - used by those who take the benefit of the time and fuel efficiencies it gives
.
A National Postcode was supposed to have been in place by Jan 2008 - so lets not get carried away!!! Perhaps the ECB/IMF will not want to pay for an Irish National Postcode!!!