Is the studio industry dead??

sprig

Studio business definitly aint dead,
We just opened a new studio in Galway www.sprigproductions.com in October 2010
Things were real slow enough before the new year, but the last few weeks have seen a real pick up here. Big ad campaign all over anywhere i can and..
Five decent bookings so far since Jan 15th,
Two singer songwriter albums on the go at the same time, a hip hop crew, and a blues man, then today an Afro Jazz man.
I have actually got a waiting list now!!!

That said two other studios in and around Galway have both recently shut their doors, and i hear another is in trouble, so this thread needs consideration i suppose.

Ya have to look at the facts here,
the two studios that closed recently in the west ( and i aint namin em ) have both been overcharging heavily for what is in my humble opinion somewhat mediocre work for a long time.
Everything that came from both of them seemed to sound
"a little bit country" hip hop with no swing and such.

Add to this the fact that they are like 50 miles outside the city and one of em didnt even have a website (the other did but it made the place look so shabby that it was actually off putting)
and i can only say well what do you expect.

Sprig studio is a new vibe in the west.
We have a usp in that we work with young music where no other studio around us does. All i see is good oul rock n roll and metal here no support for divegence at all.
We dont have quarter of a mill in gear loans and useless outboard stuff coming out of our ears, but we have everything any band could need to get the job done well and then some. The way i seeit, if we dont have it, and you really need it, well then we can rent it or buy it.
Its not about what gear you have any more, its about the sound you make with it.

The fact is this countries industries and small business are all crippled at the moment and the music industry businesses even more so,

Three of Galways best known venues shut their doors in January and most independent promoters have simply stopped touring bands from abroad at the moment.
Most venues are actually charging musicians and bands to play at this stage so eventually someone is gonna have to say well €400 a day just aint viable to charge a band to record anymore.

Any studio that cannot (and i feel for em) or, just out of plain arrogance, will not, take heed of this, well they are just in for a real rough time.
Welcome to 2011.

DamagedTrax

sprig, generally studios charge based on the quality of their output. and while there may well be a few studios closing there's is a much larger number of us in the 200 to 600 a day price range doing decent business every week.

400 a day is perfectly viable amount to charge a band if you deliver a quality of service thats worth that amount.

PaulBrewer

I'm inclined to agree with Damaged.

400+ is doable - all you need is to offer something that's worth that.

sprig

Sorry boys and girls, But we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
400 to 600 euro in my opinion is just an insane value to place on your services as an engineer. This is almost the average industrial weekly wage,
how can you in all fairness justify that?
Most musicians live on an income substantially below the industrial norms, again a high % are actually on the dole.
I have been working as a live sound for years and have a solid rep for knowing sound.
So far there havent been any complaints about the service i provide for my customers in the studio, in fact there has been heaps of praise from them.

The reality here is our economy has gone down the ****ter and anyone failing to take serious note of this is going to suffer if not already suffering.
The very existence of this thread is the proof in the pudding of very changing times.

Any musicians care to chime in here and give opinions?

PaulBrewer

My opinion is based on experience as an Equipment Dealer and as an engineer.

We're talking studio, not just engineer.

There are many bands who are sick of the '200 a day' sound as it's a complete lottery. They're unhappy with the results and want to progress. They are prepared to invest in that (just like any other business)

If you sell a product, like some of my clients do, that's worth it - you will do business.

Here are two prominent examples -

http://www.myspace.com/middlewalk
http://www.myspace.com/nutshedstudio


Both studios involving a serious investment and both charging a fair price for their wares - and both doing well.

In your own backyard is Greenfield studio - usually off the radar as he's booked from one end of year to the other.


The bargain basement end is wedged with studios - some people want something else.
Not just an opinion - but a fact.

DamagedTrax

sorry sprig but you're way off on this one. like paul my experience is from being a studio engineer. i started like you currently are and eventually worked my way to assist and lead in some great studios until eventually landing a house engineers job. my point being that myself and paul (and many others on this forum) know what we're talking about... but shh, dont tell paul that. we like to keep him on his toes.. ;-)

there are studios operating succesfully all over the country that charge that kind of money AND more.

i dont want to belittle you in any way at all but some of the comments you made are very naive.

We dont have quarter of a mill in gear loans and useless outboard stuff coming out of our ears

quality gear is something that my clients expect. we dont have a 1/2 million desk either but we made gear choices to compensate - quality analog preamps, mics, backline etc.

Its not about what gear you have any more, its about the sound you make with it.

it has always been about the sound that you make with it. but i guarantee you 100% that i can get a better sound with a u87 and an EL pre than i can with a t-bone and an art tube pre. thats just how it is.
this goes for every engineer that knows their game. give them better gear and they will get a better sound.

if you feel your price point is a good one for musicians then good luck to you, i hope it works out well for you but from listening to your samples online its easy to see that you are dealing with a different client base than i am (or than the nutshed is or trackmix or most other 200/600 studios). the product that we deliver needs to be of a release quality every time. this is why we charge what we do, so you probably shouldnt generalise.

Seziertisch

Sorry, Sprig, as a musician (primarily) I have to agree with the lads on this one.

Though I do think it is a case of horses for courses.

It all depends on what you are planning/hoping to do with the music when you are finished e.g. there is a difference between a covers band doing a demo to get pub gigs and a band doing a recording intending to get it played on the radio/released commercially.

trackmixstudio

Totally agree with Paul and Barry (damaged).
Charge what you are worth.
I have many years experience and charge accordingly.
Experienced engineers get good results very quickly so a day with an experienced engineer with pro equipment would get you a far better result than several days with someone starting out.
If you have a good reputation and a catalogue of quality work people are prepared to pay you well.
The key is to become the "go to" studio for specific things.
I don't do hip hop, jazz, country or singer songwriters but I do lots of rock/metal albums every year, many of them released internationally.
As long as there are bands, there will be studios.
Some bands try to record themselves and I regularly get calls from bands who have recorded themselves and can't get a good mix. Almost every time I open the session and the recorded tracks are unworkable and the band will start the recording again from scratch with me.

I usually do several film mixes every year too. A film mix will get you a month's work!
It pays to diversify. Film mixing is VERY hard to break into though and is completely different to mixing music.

As for useless outboard, you are dead wrong. Quality preamps make a huge difference. When you record one instrument and compare, the difference can be subtle but when you start stacking tracks quality gear is very noticeable. Also a great analogue compressor across the mix will do something software cannot do.

The days of big money SSL and Neve rooms are numbered for sure. Pulse college now own Windmill and it is rumoured that SAE are buying abbey Road now that Citibank own EMI http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=1044079&c=1

DamagedTrax

just to add on the pulse/windmill thing.

windmill 1 is still a commercial studio. and as far as i know windmill 2 can still be booked commercially depending on student timetables (dont quote me on that though)

point being, in WL1's case, its a huge studio with very high costs yet it still attracts high end business.

johnnylakes

I have to agree with Paul and Damaged here. You get what you pay for!! You can have all the best available equipment in the world, but you need an engineer that knows how to use it! I have a studio, and I am only 30 miles from you Sprig, I have been 10 years or so recording and mixing and re-recording and re-mixing (ie practising), I have studied Music Production in Berklee and it's only in the last year or so I feel I can justify actually charging for my time. People will pay the money if they know they are gonna get a quality product. That being said you gotta start somewhere, and I would think there are certain things you would have to have as a minimum, (good mics/monitors etc).
I get the point that times are hard and all that, but I do think that there is no substitute for an experienced engineer using industry standard equipment...
Not saying that I am or have either !!
So I think there will always be a demand for good quality studios with good engineers. I don't think the Industry is dead...just evolving!

Zombienosh

I'm not one of the elektra students but im in the same boat, I'm trying to get work or experience in anyway shape or form, and studios don't really touch students or offer experience so you gotta get whatever you can and work for anyone for free. .......

dav nagle

Firstly those studios who have squashed their rates to 100 per day are causing MOST of the problem here by cheapening the value of a good engineer and studio, then the next band has a panic attack when they hear 400 per day. Secondaly, 400 per day is fair enough especially if it is split between three or four lads. Jesus christ bands people expect to record for nothing these days.

DamagedTrax

dav nagle wrote: »

Firstly those studios who have squashed their rates to 100 per day are causing MOST of the problem here by cheapening the value of a good engineer and studio, then the next band has a panic attack when they hear 400 per day. Secondaly, 400 per day is fair enough especially if it is split between three or four lads. Jesus christ bands people expect to record for nothing these days.

if you think about it, 400 split between 4 is 100 each. basically a night out drinking, clubbing and a kebab for each of them.

i hope my time is worth the cost of a night out to someone.

off.the.walls

I have to say since i invested a little more in my home studio getting a extension on the space and at the moment saving up for a new project mix i/0 i've seen a rise in interest. I wouldn't be on par with any of the main studios but i can give bands a decent job for a cheap price if they cant afford to go to a commercial studio. But my opening statement on this thread I have changed my mind a fair bit.

off.the.walls

Man this thread has nearlly 2000 views...jesus.

sprig

Im not trying to say that anyone in the world can imitate the sound of a Neve pre amp with logic, pro tools or any other of the multitude of software platforms and available mid priced gadgets, They are obviously, above and beyond, proven over time to be better.
However this link kind of says a lot.

http://seelectronics.com/sE_RNR1.html



Like i said, i don't think the industry is dead at all. I see plenty hope for it,
( thats why i got into it over the last few years )
However there are major financial problems going on all around us in the country and it seems to me, madness to not accept that and plan with that in mind. Unemployment is huge, especially among musicians and artists.
Emigration has also picked back up massively and its not going to get better in a hurry. In fact if the four year plan is anything to go by ( and im guessin it will be worse than that) its defo not getting better for at least four years.

I cant speak for other folks here but i know for sure its been a good long while since i gave €100 to a publican excepting for pox bottle venue hires. I have come to expect a lot more today from a €100 than i did like 2 or 3 years ago.
Anyone else?

My thoughts on this thread are that its coming across quite negative..
Maybe it would be an idea to move the focus a bit from " Is it dead" to " how can we keep it alive"
Its clear to me that in almost all other sectors of the arts about the country, major efforts are afoot to ensure the health and viability of said same arts, but i dont see that in the music industry at all.
I see the small and mid size venues folding all over the country, I see studios closing, I see bands paying to play gigs as opposed to being payed...

PaulBrewer

No one is denying any of that - but poo-poohing the idea of guys charging for their services is missing the point.

Sure things are tough, sure no one is getting rich ..... but there always will be lads who want to progress - and that does mean stepping out of the 100/200 a day world.

Recording is rarely a profitable business for bands - it doesn't stop them though, and never has .

woodsdenis

DamagedTrax wrote: »

sprig, generally studios charge based on the quality of their output. and while there may well be a few studios closing there's is a much larger number of us in the 200 to 600 a day price range doing decent business every week.

400 a day is perfectly viable amount to charge a band if you deliver a quality of service thats worth that amount.

Hi this is question for trackmix aswell Are you talking about engineer+studio or
just engineer for 400 pd. I assume you both own your own gaffs.

off.the.walls

adding a new discussion to this.... do you go for a studio because of the gear they use when a home studio with well not less professional gear but less expenisve gear can get you the same results?

PaulBrewer

off.the.walls wrote: »

adding a new discussion to this.... do you go for a studio because of the gear they use when a home studio with well not less professional gear but less expenisve gear can get you the same results?

If that were always the case there would be no argument FOR going to a studio ... no ?

DamagedTrax

woodsdenis wrote: »

Hi this is question for trackmix aswell Are you talking about engineer+studio or
just engineer for 400 pd. I assume you both own your own gaffs.

400 was just a figure off the top of my head as it was halfway bewteen 200 and 600.

at our place we're 350 a day for studio + engineer. i dont own the place so the money isnt great. i make money on the mixes as built my own mixing room. which also leaves the studio free for tracking for the other engineer.

DamagedTrax

off.the.walls wrote: »

adding a new discussion to this.... do you go for a studio because of the gear they use when a home studio with well not less professional gear but less expenisve gear can get you the same results?

if i was a musician looking to record i'd first look at the engineer. after that i'd look at the gear. cheaper doesnt bother me as long as its not cheap crap. an sm57 is cheap but it aint crap.

Bluebirdstudios

Engineers standard of course is the first consideration. That said I think really talented engineers find their way into working with high-end gear in great studios or mix rooms or whatever. To me the first sign of a good engineer is the drive to get the sound they're after and finding a way to get it. Like all walks of life its ambition that drives.
I had maybe 20 or so student engineers over the last 12 months.. lets say 20 the breakdown ---
16 played the wee in the studio for the 3 days - no hope
3 talk the talk but arrived late , left early and didn't ask any relevant questions
1 *** asked all the right questions , wanted extra time on outboard, talked to the band, took sample of the mix home to try and mix a version, ask for advice wanted more studio time..
- You get the picture
Now to get above back on topic..
Lets take that last guy - he does exist.. I have a feeling he'll do whatever it takes to get to learn how to mix audio to a professional standard. Its people like him that make a studio work as a very viable place of high-end audio.
Couple great gear with great talent its simply a no brainer - studios will survive..

fitz

off.the.walls wrote: »

adding a new discussion to this.... do you go for a studio because of the gear they use when a home studio with well not less professional gear but less expenisve gear can get you the same results?

I've a great home setup, and get good results.
Certain things I can do with my setup, but if I want to get top notch results, there are things I need a studio for.
Everything is a consideration when choosing a studio.

We recorded the song that's in my sig in Windmill Lane with Tony Perrey.
Tony is totally on top of everything, and did a fantastic job with us.
Worked fast and got us a great result.
Studio 1 in Windmill is an incredible sounding room. If you've never been in there, it's difficult to describe, but there are so many options available from the one room.
And then there's the desk/outboard/mics. Neve desk, top notch mics, the best of vintage and modern outboard.

People - Room - Gear. It's the holy trinity of recording...if any of the three isn't up to scratch, it's going to impact the end result. The better each of these elements are, the better the outcome.

Bands will always want their material to sound like a top commercial record, so there will always be demand for studios that offer the people, rooms and gear to deliver that standard.

PaulBrewer

I remember a time around here when even the mere mention of 'proper' gear would attract a tirade of abuse ....

Good to see a broader worldview !

fitz

I think there's a balance to be struck Paul...
We got that song recorded in a day, mixed in a second day.
Now, that was only possible because I had pre-produced the track, recording it at home, knew exactly what we wanted, and was working with people who were super-efficient.
There's elements of the recording that, looking back, we could have done at home without compromising hugely on results (textural parts, etc...), but again, largely cause I've a great setup at home. You don't absolutely need to be going to somewhere like Windmill for great results, but it certainly a lot easier to get them in a studio like that...if you know what you're doing.

PaulBrewer

That's the balance ok - I sometimes find that with bands the 'recording' becomes the event , not 'the song' .

What you described is the most efficient way of recording to my mind - solid home preparation and get in there and do it.

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I remember a time around here when even the mere mention of 'proper' gear would attract a tirade of abuse ....

No it wasn't abuse, just well informed disagreement. The problem was the gearheads getting sniffy.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

No it wasn't abuse, just well informed disagreement. The problem was the gearheads getting sniffy.

Before your time Mad !

madtheory

OK, so we're not talking about the mic pre debate that came up a few times?