Is the studio industry dead??

off.the.walls

Been thinking recently I invested a fair amount of money into my studio for the simple fact that i wanted to have it there for recording with my own band, I did slap up a few adverts advertising it but have recieved no interest, so is it just me or is the studio industry pretty dead, I know a few friends with the same problem.

seannash

No offence but maybe slapping up a few adverts isnt enough in this day and age.
Id say word of mouth in your local area might be a good bet.
Try organise a competition with your local venue and offer the winners a free day or two in the studio.
You can hobnob with the other local bands too whilst they're there and tell them to drop by the studio.

I think you would need to build a bit of a reputation and the only way is to have something out there so that people can listen to and decide if its for them.People are far too aware now for a "have studio can record" advert to work i think.

I dont think the need is gone but id say more and more studios are doing work outside of recording bands(voiceover,adverts,tutoring)

Then again im from the outside looking in so Im not the best person to ask

DamagedTrax

studio industry definitly isnt dead. in the last 2 days we've just taken 3 new bookings.

you need to get your name out there. all the advertising in the world isnt worth word of mouth.

offer free recordings, we've all done plenty! eventually, if you're good, someone will hear something they like in your sound and book you and if they like the result they'll recommend you and so on.

run a competition (as we have running at the moment)


figure out your strengths and your niche and play off them. they will be your USP... for instance, if anyone coming to base recording needs any programing done (samplers, synths, drum machines etc), i have a background in techno/breakbeat production so i can handle most tasks in that area and a lot of sessions ive done lately are asking for a little extra in their tracks.
thats not exactly strange in a studio but its certainly not something every studio can offer.
same as mick out in trackmix. he has a reputation for getting great drum sounds, especially for rock and metal. im pretty sure this USP has brought him in a lot of work thru the years.

like i said you just need to recognise what your angle is and then try and get clients that are interested (which brings us nicely back to the first couple of points).

hope this is of some help.

off.the.walls

Thanks for the advice lads.

seannash

If i was trying to generate more business for my studio i think i would try and immerse myself in the scene.

Djs go see other djs,chat to other djs about music.

If you want to record bands get down to the gigs,approach bands.give them your card/website details.
I think a new band would be very receptive if an engineer from a studio took an interest in them.

Im sure it would help if you liked the band also but i guess business is business at the end of the day.

It seems as if your recording anyway so you might as well be recording someone else who might spread the word for you even if money aint involved for the begining

madtheory

Word of mouth and a track record of great product. What really sells is the engineer/ producer, more than the studio itself. Tough business.

fitz

off.the.walls wrote: »

Been thinking recently I invested a fair amount of money into my studio for the simple fact that i wanted to have it there for recording with my own band, I did slap up a few adverts advertising it but have recieved no interest, so is it just me or is the studio industry pretty dead, I know a few friends with the same problem.

Tbh dude, and please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not having a go, but I took a look at your studio setup:


Honestly, that equipment list isn't going to be a huge draw to bands that are looking to compete with all the other acts out there. You've got to have equipment that bands will have confidence in the quality of, otherwise you won't be taken seriously. It's a pricey thing to do, and something to seriously question if you're thinking about investment. Does it suit your needs for recording your band? Yes? Great! That's a brilliant position to be in. But does that mean you have a commercial studio? Well, that's a different story imo. I'll give you my situation, just for perspective on that opinion.

I've got a home studio setup too that I've built up over time (more considerably in the last year) for my own recording purposes, and hopefully will be doing some recordings beyond my own band. However, I won't be charging for those, I'll be working on projects I want to work on as freebies for people I know. I've also got access to an incredible sounding room in the most vibey setting.


Now, I'm missing a kick mic and some tom mics, but I'm aware enough to know that once I have those, this is AT LEAST (imo) the kind of level in terms of equipment needed to be talking about attracting the interest of others. Why would people pay, or even spend time doing a free recording, if that recording isn't going to be up to scratch in terms of quality?

As people have already pointed out, equally, if not more important is your experience and ability to get results. This is why I will be using my setup, which I'm building up for myself, to record other people without asking for money. I'm confident I can get results, but at the same time, I've a lot to learn, so charging is kinda taking the piss.

When my equipment list is a bit more complete and I've a bit more experience, and have got stuff I've produced out there, who knows, maybe I'll have people I don't know approaching me to do some work, at which point, I'd be stupid not to charge for it, but it'd still be modest pricing.

Like I said, this is just me giving my perspective and situation.
At the end of the day, I have some great recording equipment, and have what I would describe as a "home studio," with the ability to do mobile recording, and have access to a wonderful recording space also. Is that part of the "studio industry"? No, and here's the core of this whole meandering post:

Realistically, unless you have your own tailored environment where you are offering equipment and services that people deem commercially valuable, you're not really operating a commercial studio, and aren't really in a position to state that an industry you're not part of is dead.

Like I said, just an honest opinion from someone doing similar things, not trying to having a go! I guess, from my perspective, it's a case of realising the difference between having a recording setup, and running a studio business.

scorcoran90

im with fitz on this one.
and not being bad but the equipment you have is nothing special.
bands can now fork out 100 quid for a 12 hour session in elektra for example and get pretty good results wth some really good gear. word of mouth is the way and you defo should be prepared to do some recording for free.

studiorat

As a viable business where you can earn a decent living it's as dead as a do-do.
An engineer used to get £350 a day or there abouts 10 years ago.

Who's getting that now?

madtheory

scorcoran90 wrote: »

100 quid for a 12 hour session

I really hope that does not include the engineer.

Savman

madtheory wrote: »

I really hope that does not include the engineer.

It does actually. Not a bad day out, all things considered, very cheap way for a band or artist to build up their studio experience without breaking the bank. Being obsessed with the outcome or result is not desirable tho...

PaulBrewer

This is a subject close to my heart and one I've posted on many times.

Not referring to the OP specifically - but a 'Studio', to differentiate itself from the masses, must have something that separates itself from the Bedroom Boys ....... or it has no chance.

DamagedTrax

madtheory wrote: »

I really hope that does not include the engineer.

student engineer. that band VAG were in recently. never heard the results though.

madtheory

I hope the student gains credit towards her qualification!

DamagedTrax

madtheory wrote: »

I hope the student gains credit towards her qualification!

i doubt it. all c&g and fetac work is generally supervised (to a point). i'd say either the student gets a few quid or its looked on as practice.

having said that i do seem to remember someone on here mention that its freshly qualified engineers so who knows if they get payment..

scorcoran90

yeah its 100 with or without an engineer.

digitaldeath

Christ! For 12 hours?! I wouldn't get outta bed for that!

seannash

digitaldeath wrote: »

Christ! For 12 hours?! I wouldn't get outta bed for that!

Id say that because most musicians have dabbled in home recording to some degree and view it as an enjoyable past time they might also think that the engineer is having the time of his life recording people everyday.

Id imagine the expanding home studio market has devalued studio time alot

Seziertisch

I would have thought that for most guys starting out as engineers the opportunity to cut their teeth would be appreciated even if the pay isn't great.

Ultimately your success or failure in the profession is down to the results achieved. Just because you work 12 hours on something doesn't mean it is worth someone paying you for 12 hours, particularly when you have no proven track record.

There is also a direct correlation a lot of the time between the amount of time spent and the quality of the end result. In my experience the guys who really pride themselves on what they are doing are willing to put in that bit extra (even if its unpaid) because they consider the end product to be more important than whether they get paid for every hour they work.

Savman

digitaldeath wrote: »

Christ! For 12 hours?! I wouldn't get outta bed for that!

Good for you, but these people have to start somewhere ffs. Great experience for both Engineers and Bands at a steal of a price, what's the problem exactly?

DamagedTrax

Seziertisch wrote: »

There is also a direct correlation a lot of the time between the amount of time spent and the quality of the end result. In my experience the guys who really pride themselves on what they are doing are willing to put in that bit extra (even if its unpaid) because they consider the end product to be more important than whether they get paid for every hour they work.

+1

i cant charge more than 2 studio days for a complicated mix (indie/pop 60+ tracks) but realistically more than 2 days work goes into it when you consider edits and revisions and a serious case of mix OCD :-D

you just suck it up and enjoy having work in front of you.

Einstein

Also finding things tipping over. And it's all word of mouth. three quarters of the way through 1 guys album at the moment. Starting to mix a bands track from next monday, and starting a new album with a Singer Songwriter in January.
And to be honest, I could be busier if it wasn't a part time thing.

But paul hit the nail on the head. The studio has to have something to differentiate it from the bedroom setup etc.

madtheory

EUR100 for 12 hours is pushing it IMO. It's 12 hours of solid work, realistically. There's doing it for love/ experience and there's taking the piss. If it was 8 hours that would be more reasonable. Who even does 12 hour sessions at any price? Nuts. IMO.

DamagedTrax

madtheory wrote: »

Who even does 12 hour sessions at any price? Nuts. IMO.

clients choice IMO.

ive worked till 2am for the same money i've worked till 6pm.

i may get jaded and change my mind in years to come but right now i love long tracking sessions. much more relaxed and productive when you can afford to take breaks without feeling under pressure.

madtheory

Fair enough. I find the energy peters out after 9 hours. IME it's better to come back to it the following day, solutions present themselves much more quickly. 12 hour sessions mean one doesn't have a life outside the studio IME.

PaulBrewer

I'd agree with Mad.

danjokill

this is no **** but a few couple of years ago I did 24 plus hours straight behind the desk in that studio ........ it's a long story but I couldn't tell my arse from my elbow afterwards ... I drank so much coffee to keep going .... i really thought i was going to die my heart was beating so fast. However and i do consider it a fluke ..... and do not recommend doing this ever your ears need rest .... the out come was some of my best work!

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

Fair enough. I find the energy peters out after 9 hours. IME it's better to come back to it the following day, solutions present themselves much more quickly. 12 hour sessions mean one doesn't have a life outside the studio IME.

Don't know about that. I think a good rule of thumb is to keep working as long as its productive.

madtheory

I can only speak from experience. Used to do the 12 hour session thing when I started out years ago. Usually baby bands at weekends. Even worse money than the student in question. Great way to have no social life/ lose the girlfriend. I quickly learned how to track the whole band live so we'd finish early. Would often do mixes and/ or vocals during downtime the following week. Boss didn't like. Until the repeat business came in.

Doge

DamagedTrax wrote: »

student engineer. that band VAG were in recently. never heard the results though.

I think that's the the ideal solution right there.

Get a stunning looking vag or 2 into the studio, train them in sound recording, have them assist your clients

and you'll find the majority of male bands, queuing up, fighting to get inside your door!

It will be the greatest breakthrough in Studio marketing, the world has ever seen.

Sure ffs lads, all the popular artists are doing it with their music videos, sex sells!

(Apologies in advance! )

NyquistFreak

waveform wrote: »

I think that's the the ideal solution right there.

Get a stunning looking vag or 2 into the studio, train them in sound recording, have them assist your clients

and you'll find the majority of male bands, queuing up, fighting to get inside your door!

It will be the greatest breakthrough in Studio marketing, the world has ever seen.

Sure ffs lads, all the popular artists are doing it with their music videos, sex sells!

(Apologies in advance! )

Reel yourself in there a bit mate, there's plenty of female engineers around the place who have enough to be dealing with aside from the "girl in band syndrome" attitude of a male dominated industry! I know you meant this as a joke....but if you can't show some respect, at least have the manners to not fuel the fire hey? Or this stunning vag will have to kick yer face off :pac:

sprig

Studio business definitly aint dead,
We just opened a new studio in Galway www.sprigproductions.com in October 2010
Things were real slow enough before the new year, but the last few weeks have seen a real pick up here. Big ad campaign all over anywhere i can and..
Five decent bookings so far since Jan 15th,
Two singer songwriter albums on the go at the same time, a hip hop crew, and a blues man, then today an Afro Jazz man.
I have actually got a waiting list now!!!

That said two other studios in and around Galway have both recently shut their doors, and i hear another is in trouble, so this thread needs consideration i suppose.

Ya have to look at the facts here,
the two studios that closed recently in the west ( and i aint namin em ) have both been overcharging heavily for what is in my humble opinion somewhat mediocre work for a long time.
Everything that came from both of them seemed to sound
"a little bit country" hip hop with no swing and such.

Add to this the fact that they are like 50 miles outside the city and one of em didnt even have a website (the other did but it made the place look so shabby that it was actually off putting)
and i can only say well what do you expect.

Sprig studio is a new vibe in the west.
We have a usp in that we work with young music where no other studio around us does. All i see is good oul rock n roll and metal here no support for divegence at all.
We dont have quarter of a mill in gear loans and useless outboard stuff coming out of our ears, but we have everything any band could need to get the job done well and then some. The way i seeit, if we dont have it, and you really need it, well then we can rent it or buy it.
Its not about what gear you have any more, its about the sound you make with it.

The fact is this countries industries and small business are all crippled at the moment and the music industry businesses even more so,

Three of Galways best known venues shut their doors in January and most independent promoters have simply stopped touring bands from abroad at the moment.
Most venues are actually charging musicians and bands to play at this stage so eventually someone is gonna have to say well €400 a day just aint viable to charge a band to record anymore.

Any studio that cannot (and i feel for em) or, just out of plain arrogance, will not, take heed of this, well they are just in for a real rough time.
Welcome to 2011.

DamagedTrax

sprig, generally studios charge based on the quality of their output. and while there may well be a few studios closing there's is a much larger number of us in the 200 to 600 a day price range doing decent business every week.

400 a day is perfectly viable amount to charge a band if you deliver a quality of service thats worth that amount.

PaulBrewer

I'm inclined to agree with Damaged.

400+ is doable - all you need is to offer something that's worth that.

sprig

Sorry boys and girls, But we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
400 to 600 euro in my opinion is just an insane value to place on your services as an engineer. This is almost the average industrial weekly wage,
how can you in all fairness justify that?
Most musicians live on an income substantially below the industrial norms, again a high % are actually on the dole.
I have been working as a live sound for years and have a solid rep for knowing sound.
So far there havent been any complaints about the service i provide for my customers in the studio, in fact there has been heaps of praise from them.

The reality here is our economy has gone down the ****ter and anyone failing to take serious note of this is going to suffer if not already suffering.
The very existence of this thread is the proof in the pudding of very changing times.

Any musicians care to chime in here and give opinions?

PaulBrewer

My opinion is based on experience as an Equipment Dealer and as an engineer.

We're talking studio, not just engineer.

There are many bands who are sick of the '200 a day' sound as it's a complete lottery. They're unhappy with the results and want to progress. They are prepared to invest in that (just like any other business)

If you sell a product, like some of my clients do, that's worth it - you will do business.

Here are two prominent examples -

http://www.myspace.com/middlewalk
http://www.myspace.com/nutshedstudio


Both studios involving a serious investment and both charging a fair price for their wares - and both doing well.

In your own backyard is Greenfield studio - usually off the radar as he's booked from one end of year to the other.


The bargain basement end is wedged with studios - some people want something else.
Not just an opinion - but a fact.

DamagedTrax

sorry sprig but you're way off on this one. like paul my experience is from being a studio engineer. i started like you currently are and eventually worked my way to assist and lead in some great studios until eventually landing a house engineers job. my point being that myself and paul (and many others on this forum) know what we're talking about... but shh, dont tell paul that. we like to keep him on his toes.. ;-)

there are studios operating succesfully all over the country that charge that kind of money AND more.

i dont want to belittle you in any way at all but some of the comments you made are very naive.

We dont have quarter of a mill in gear loans and useless outboard stuff coming out of our ears

quality gear is something that my clients expect. we dont have a 1/2 million desk either but we made gear choices to compensate - quality analog preamps, mics, backline etc.

Its not about what gear you have any more, its about the sound you make with it.

it has always been about the sound that you make with it. but i guarantee you 100% that i can get a better sound with a u87 and an EL pre than i can with a t-bone and an art tube pre. thats just how it is.
this goes for every engineer that knows their game. give them better gear and they will get a better sound.

if you feel your price point is a good one for musicians then good luck to you, i hope it works out well for you but from listening to your samples online its easy to see that you are dealing with a different client base than i am (or than the nutshed is or trackmix or most other 200/600 studios). the product that we deliver needs to be of a release quality every time. this is why we charge what we do, so you probably shouldnt generalise.

Seziertisch

Sorry, Sprig, as a musician (primarily) I have to agree with the lads on this one.

Though I do think it is a case of horses for courses.

It all depends on what you are planning/hoping to do with the music when you are finished e.g. there is a difference between a covers band doing a demo to get pub gigs and a band doing a recording intending to get it played on the radio/released commercially.

trackmixstudio

Totally agree with Paul and Barry (damaged).
Charge what you are worth.
I have many years experience and charge accordingly.
Experienced engineers get good results very quickly so a day with an experienced engineer with pro equipment would get you a far better result than several days with someone starting out.
If you have a good reputation and a catalogue of quality work people are prepared to pay you well.
The key is to become the "go to" studio for specific things.
I don't do hip hop, jazz, country or singer songwriters but I do lots of rock/metal albums every year, many of them released internationally.
As long as there are bands, there will be studios.
Some bands try to record themselves and I regularly get calls from bands who have recorded themselves and can't get a good mix. Almost every time I open the session and the recorded tracks are unworkable and the band will start the recording again from scratch with me.

I usually do several film mixes every year too. A film mix will get you a month's work!
It pays to diversify. Film mixing is VERY hard to break into though and is completely different to mixing music.

As for useless outboard, you are dead wrong. Quality preamps make a huge difference. When you record one instrument and compare, the difference can be subtle but when you start stacking tracks quality gear is very noticeable. Also a great analogue compressor across the mix will do something software cannot do.

The days of big money SSL and Neve rooms are numbered for sure. Pulse college now own Windmill and it is rumoured that SAE are buying abbey Road now that Citibank own EMI http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=1044079&c=1

DamagedTrax

just to add on the pulse/windmill thing.

windmill 1 is still a commercial studio. and as far as i know windmill 2 can still be booked commercially depending on student timetables (dont quote me on that though)

point being, in WL1's case, its a huge studio with very high costs yet it still attracts high end business.

johnnylakes

I have to agree with Paul and Damaged here. You get what you pay for!! You can have all the best available equipment in the world, but you need an engineer that knows how to use it! I have a studio, and I am only 30 miles from you Sprig, I have been 10 years or so recording and mixing and re-recording and re-mixing (ie practising), I have studied Music Production in Berklee and it's only in the last year or so I feel I can justify actually charging for my time. People will pay the money if they know they are gonna get a quality product. That being said you gotta start somewhere, and I would think there are certain things you would have to have as a minimum, (good mics/monitors etc).
I get the point that times are hard and all that, but I do think that there is no substitute for an experienced engineer using industry standard equipment...
Not saying that I am or have either !!
So I think there will always be a demand for good quality studios with good engineers. I don't think the Industry is dead...just evolving!

Zombienosh

I'm not one of the elektra students but im in the same boat, I'm trying to get work or experience in anyway shape or form, and studios don't really touch students or offer experience so you gotta get whatever you can and work for anyone for free. .......

dav nagle

Firstly those studios who have squashed their rates to 100 per day are causing MOST of the problem here by cheapening the value of a good engineer and studio, then the next band has a panic attack when they hear 400 per day. Secondaly, 400 per day is fair enough especially if it is split between three or four lads. Jesus christ bands people expect to record for nothing these days.

DamagedTrax

dav nagle wrote: »

Firstly those studios who have squashed their rates to 100 per day are causing MOST of the problem here by cheapening the value of a good engineer and studio, then the next band has a panic attack when they hear 400 per day. Secondaly, 400 per day is fair enough especially if it is split between three or four lads. Jesus christ bands people expect to record for nothing these days.

if you think about it, 400 split between 4 is 100 each. basically a night out drinking, clubbing and a kebab for each of them.

i hope my time is worth the cost of a night out to someone.

off.the.walls

I have to say since i invested a little more in my home studio getting a extension on the space and at the moment saving up for a new project mix i/0 i've seen a rise in interest. I wouldn't be on par with any of the main studios but i can give bands a decent job for a cheap price if they cant afford to go to a commercial studio. But my opening statement on this thread I have changed my mind a fair bit.

off.the.walls

Man this thread has nearlly 2000 views...jesus.

sprig

Im not trying to say that anyone in the world can imitate the sound of a Neve pre amp with logic, pro tools or any other of the multitude of software platforms and available mid priced gadgets, They are obviously, above and beyond, proven over time to be better.
However this link kind of says a lot.

http://seelectronics.com/sE_RNR1.html



Like i said, i don't think the industry is dead at all. I see plenty hope for it,
( thats why i got into it over the last few years )
However there are major financial problems going on all around us in the country and it seems to me, madness to not accept that and plan with that in mind. Unemployment is huge, especially among musicians and artists.
Emigration has also picked back up massively and its not going to get better in a hurry. In fact if the four year plan is anything to go by ( and im guessin it will be worse than that) its defo not getting better for at least four years.

I cant speak for other folks here but i know for sure its been a good long while since i gave €100 to a publican excepting for pox bottle venue hires. I have come to expect a lot more today from a €100 than i did like 2 or 3 years ago.
Anyone else?

My thoughts on this thread are that its coming across quite negative..
Maybe it would be an idea to move the focus a bit from " Is it dead" to " how can we keep it alive"
Its clear to me that in almost all other sectors of the arts about the country, major efforts are afoot to ensure the health and viability of said same arts, but i dont see that in the music industry at all.
I see the small and mid size venues folding all over the country, I see studios closing, I see bands paying to play gigs as opposed to being payed...

PaulBrewer

No one is denying any of that - but poo-poohing the idea of guys charging for their services is missing the point.

Sure things are tough, sure no one is getting rich ..... but there always will be lads who want to progress - and that does mean stepping out of the 100/200 a day world.

Recording is rarely a profitable business for bands - it doesn't stop them though, and never has .

woodsdenis

DamagedTrax wrote: »

sprig, generally studios charge based on the quality of their output. and while there may well be a few studios closing there's is a much larger number of us in the 200 to 600 a day price range doing decent business every week.

400 a day is perfectly viable amount to charge a band if you deliver a quality of service thats worth that amount.

Hi this is question for trackmix aswell Are you talking about engineer+studio or
just engineer for 400 pd. I assume you both own your own gaffs.

off.the.walls

adding a new discussion to this.... do you go for a studio because of the gear they use when a home studio with well not less professional gear but less expenisve gear can get you the same results?

PaulBrewer

off.the.walls wrote: »

adding a new discussion to this.... do you go for a studio because of the gear they use when a home studio with well not less professional gear but less expenisve gear can get you the same results?

If that were always the case there would be no argument FOR going to a studio ... no ?