IMF - One simple fact

Black Swan

yarwood wrote: »

It is not the IMF that needs to be called in, some foreign country should bomb the place and it's inhabitants off the face of the planet.

The Government and the populace are nothing short of self serving, lying ignorant assholes, why do I say this, well take a look at where you are after all the hype and ****e about Tiger Economy and now the aftermath the whinging on RTE the begging bowl and the lying ****e houses elected by yourselves governing the country.

Ireland is a disgraceful country populated by disgraceful people and governed by disgraceful politicians, you all deserve each other

yarwood banned for one month.

jimmycrackcorm

B9K9 wrote: »

Get everyone'e pay down by 15-20% ASAP, so we can be internationally competitive.

Good except for the tarring everyone with the same brush. Only Last week it was reported that Google in Dublin were giving all their staff and average €5k salary rise. What do you think Google would make of the idea to cut by 20% instead?
.

krd

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

yarwood banned for one month.

Well, where exactly is he wrong. We didn't get into this situation through honest and decent people making honest mistakes.

This a country where people say things like "Aw you have to be a bastard to get ahead". And admire business men and politicians who pull strokes. We're a country of people who feel pride when we screw honest people over.

If we were straight people we wouldn't be in this mess. It's as simple as that.

rmarie1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUmQbf1AyA8&feature=related

and this is what wikipedia has to say about the IMF

Effectiveness

Two criticisms from economists have been that financial aid is always bound to so-called "Conditionalities", including Structural Adjustment Programs (SAP). It is claimed that conditionalities (economic performance targets established as a precondition for IMF loans) retard social stability and hence inhibit the stated goals of the IMF, while Structural Adjustment Programs lead to an increase in poverty in recipient countries.[29]
The IMF sometimes advocates "austerity programmes," increasing taxes even when the economy is weak, in order to generate government revenue and bring budgets closer to a balance, thus reducing budget deficits. Countries are often advised to lower their corporate tax rate. These policies were criticized by Joseph E. Stiglitz, former chief economist and Senior Vice President at the World Bank, in his book Globalization and Its Discontents.[30] He argued that by converting to a more Monetarist approach, the fund no longer had a valid purpose, as it was designed to provide funds for countries to carry out Keynesian reflations, and that the IMF "was not participating in a conspiracy, but it was reflecting the interests and ideology of the Western financial community".[31]
Argentina, which had been considered by the IMF to be a model country in its compliance to policy proposals by the Bretton Woods institutions, experienced a catastrophic economic crisis in 2001,[32] which some believe to have been caused by IMF-induced budget restrictions — which undercut the government's ability to sustain national infrastructure even in crucial areas such as health, education, and security — and privatization of strategically vital national resources.[33] Others attribute the crisis to Argentina's misdesigned fiscal federalism, which caused subnational spending to increase rapidly.[34] The crisis added to widespread hatred of this institution in Argentina and other South American countries, with many blaming the IMF for the region's economic problems.[35] The current — as of early 2006 — trend towards moderate left-wing governments in the region and a growing concern with the development of a regional economic policy largely independent of big business pressures has been ascribed to this crisis.
Another example of where IMF Structural Adjustment Programmes aggravated the problem was in Kenya. Before the IMF got involved in the country, the Kenyan central bank oversaw all currency movements in and out of the country. The IMF mandated that the Kenyan central bank had to allow easier currency movement. However, the adjustment resulted in very little foreign investment, but allowed Kamlesh Manusuklal Damji Pattni, with the help of corrupt government officials, to siphon off billions of Kenyan shillings in what came to be known as the Goldenberg scandal, leaving the country worse off than it was before the IMF reforms were implemented.[citation needed] In an interview, the former Romanian Prime Minister Tăriceanu stated that "Since 2005, IMF is constantly making mistakes when it appreciates the country's economic performances".[36]
Overall, the IMF success record is perceived as limited.[citation needed] While it was created to help stabilize the global economy, since 1980 critics claim over 100 countries (or reputedly most of the Fund's membership) have experienced a banking collapse that they claim have reduced GDP by four percent or more, far more than at any time in Post-Depression history.[citation needed] The considerable delay in the IMF's response to any crisis, and the fact that it tends to only respond to them (or even create them)[37] rather than prevent them, has led many economists to argue for reform. In 2006, an IMF reform agenda called the Medium Term Strategy was widely endorsed by the institution's member countries. The agenda includes changes in IMF governance to enhance the role of developing countries in the institution's decision-making process and steps to deepen the effectiveness of its core mandate, which is known as economic surveillance or helping member countries adopt macroeconomic policies that will sustain global growth and reduce poverty. On June 15, 2007, the Executive Board of the IMF adopted the 2007 Decision on Bilateral Surveillance, a landmark measure that replaced a 30-year-old decision of the Fund's member countries on how the IMF should analyse economic outcomes at the country level.
[edit]Impact on access to food
A number of civil society organizations[38] have criticized the IMF's policies for their impact on peoples' access to food, particularly in developing countries. In October 2008, former US President Bill Clinton joined this chorus in a speech to the United Nations World Food Day, which criticized the World Bank and IMF for their policies on food and agriculture:
We need the World Bank, the IMF, all the big foundations, and all the governments to admit that, for 30 years, we all blew it, including me when I was President. We were wrong to believe that food was like some other product in international trade, and we all have to go back to a more responsible and sustainable form of agriculture.
—Former US President Bill Clinton, Speech at United Nations World Food Day, October 16, 2008[39]

[edit]Impact on public health
In 2008, a study by analysts from Cambridge and Yale universities published on the open-access Public Library of Science concluded that strict conditions on the international loans by the IMF resulted in thousands of deaths in Eastern Europe by tuberculosis as public health care had to be weakened. In the 21 countries to which the IMF had given loans, tuberculosis deaths rose by 16.6%.[40]
In 2009, a book by Rick Rowden titled, The Deadly Ideas of Neoliberalism: How the IMF has Undermined Public Health and the Fight Against Aids, claimed that the IMF's monetarist approach towards prioritizing price stability (low inflation) and fiscal restraint (low budget deficits) was unnecessarily restrictive and has prevented developing countries from being able to scale up long-term public investment as a percent of GDP in the underlying public health infrastructure. The book claimed the consequences have been chronically underfunded public health systems, leading to dilapidated health infrastructure, inadequate numbers of health personnel, and demoralizing working conditions that have fueled the "push factors" driving the brain drain of nurses migrating from poor countries to rich ones, all of which has undermined public health systems and the fight against HIV/AIDS in developing countries.[41]

[edit]Impact on environment
IMF policies have been repeatedly criticized for making it difficult for indebted countries to avoid ecosystem-damaging projects that generate cash flow, in particular oil, coal and forest-destroying lumber and agriculture projects. Ecuador for example had to defy IMF advice repeatedly in order to pursue the protection of its rain forests, though paradoxically this need was cited in IMF argument to support that country. The IMF acknowledged this paradox in a March 2010 staff position report [42] which proposed the IMF Green Fund, a mechanism to issue Special Drawing Rights directly to pay for climate harm prevention and potentially other ecological protection as pursued generally by other environmental finance.
While the response to these moves was generally positive [43] possibly because ecological protection and energy and infrastructure transformation are more politically neutral than pressures to change social policy. Some experts voiced concern that the IMF was not representative, and that the IMF proposals to generate only 200 billion dollars/year by 2020 with the SDRs as seed funds, did not go far enough to undo the general incentive to pursue destructive projects inherent in the world commodity trading and banking systems - criticisms often levelled at the WTO and large global banking institutions.
In the context of the May 2010 European banking crisis, some observers also noted that Spain and California, two troubled economies within Europe and the US respectively, and also Germany, the primary and politically most fragile supporter of a Euro currency bailout would benefit from IMF recognition of their leadership in green technology, and directly from Green-Fund generated demand for their exports, which might also improve their credit standing with international bankers.

[edit]Criticism from free-market advocates
Typically the IMF and its supporters advocate a monetarist approach. As such, adherents of supply-side economics generally find themselves in open disagreement with the IMF. The IMF frequently advocates currency devaluation, criticized by proponents of supply-side economics as inflationary. Secondly they link higher taxes under "austerity programmes" with economic contraction.
Currency devaluation is recommended by the IMF to the governments of poor nations with struggling economies. Some economists claim these IMF policies are destructive to economic prosperity.[citation needed]
Complaints have also been directed toward the International Monetary Fund gold reserve being undervalued. At its inception in 1945, the IMF pegged gold at US$35 per Troy ounce of gold. In 1973, the Nixon administration lifted the fixed asset value of gold in favor of a world market price. This need to lift the fixed asset value of gold had largely come about because Petrodollars outside the United States were worth more than could be backed by the gold at Fort Knox under the fixed exchange rate system.[citation needed] Following this, the fixed exchange rates of currencies tied to gold were switched to a floating rate, also based on market price and exchange. The fixed rate system had only served to limit the nominal amount of assistance the organization could provide to debt-ridden countries.

spagboll

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Good except for the tarring everyone with the same brush. Only Last week it was reported that Google in Dublin were giving all their staff and average €5k salary rise. What do you think Google would make of the idea to cut by 20% instead?
.

Its not really a raise as far as i know it's a restructuring of bonuses, the staff voted for a pay raise instead of the previous christmas etc bonus

krd

Well it's official.

They're here in the building.

We've been lied to. The meetings with Rehn were EFSF meetings and this is the IMF meeting.


Ajai Chopra (on the left), the deputy director of the European department of the IMF, walking towards the Central Bank of Ireland where the talks are taking place

sceptre

I've deleted a small collection of posts from the end of this thread that add absolutely nothing to the universe, being little more than idiotic oneliners (and when I say "idiotic", I actually mean completely devoid of point, purpose or anything else).

Please remember that discussions in the Irish Economy forum require contributors to at least attempt to make a a contribution that adds to the value of the thread, rather than devaluing it. While some other forums on boards welcome a quick quip of variable quality, the Irish Economy forum isn't one of them.

/mod

Aodhfinn

your correct , the IMF tells , and therefore compells puppets to make the changes in a society that has long lost its way in the first place , it is up to the irish to except the IMF and the level of corruption within Ireland , or go our own direction

remember ... YOu dont have to except the IMF ... there are other ways open to Irish people , to the Nation of Ireland


Ireland wil never be able to pay off the debt..Never ... on the basis of that lets not waste time ... we need a new direction ,or forever and increasingly become enslaved to a way of living .. Market living . to these MARKETS .. the same markets that will savage the future and that were used to explain by our ex colonial master the starvation ( uk )of 1,500,000 irish people not that long ago............

pintofbeermike

Guys,
Could you all for a min just stand back and look at whats going on.....
I'd like to point out that what is happening here is a huge slight of hand. This is just a distraction. The take over of this country has been planned for years. The taking control over the people. Control the debt, you control the population. And no, im not some header or conspiracy theorist.....

We are the 2nd country in this take over process and certainly not the last. The ICB is ECB which is the IMF and the world bank. All under the House of Rothschild. Research them. We were given all this debt (cash / money) so we could build up our GDP. Build roads, create jobs and increase the standard of living. This inturn, led us to "borrow to spend". The more we spent, the more the demand for goods and services increased, thus the cost/price of these goods and services (houses,cars, luxurys etc etc) went up. FF had a time frame inwhich to squander the debt (PPARS, E-Voting, T2, Roads for free to NTR, Public Service cost and pay, HSE, etc etc etc)
May I point out that our politicians and banks encourged us (get on the property ladder, 100% mortgages, grants, etc) to borrow and spend.

Bertie, Brian clown, Brian Len - these and all the politicans knew what was going on. Their silence and obedience were paid for with their huge salaries.
All this nonsense talk about whos fault it is. Its a distraction while we are being manoeuvred into our debt-slaved corner to which we are never going to get out of now.
I'll tell you whos fault it is.
1. Its the banks - for lending more than they had on deposit. The ICB encouraged them by lending to them and thus AIB, BOI etc lent to us.
2. Its us. - For being totally blind and ignorant to financial history. We thought we were rich (on borrowed money/debt!!).
3. Its our politicians for their unpatriotic treasonous actions where by they put themselves before us and our country. Do not be mistaken, these guys are not fools, nor idiots. They are obeying the little whispers from the guys in the shadows. This is a script that is playing out before us and we still cannot see it.

Study the wall street crash (run on the banks) and the crazy spending the americans did leading up to that. The FED (A private owned Rothschild Bank) is allowed to coin money for the US government and then lends it back to them at interest. Their national debt is gigantic, all because of the creation of the FED in 1913.

Not one person, man on the street to the leaders of this country are even suggesting that we could create our own seperate money supply.
This money could become our national independant currency where our government could lend (give, distribute) to a national irish owned bank. This new bank could then lend this new money at near to no interest. All it needs to be backed by is something of worth (thats ours - property, gold, silver, national resources potential earnings) or even just our promise to pay. Which is really all what a bond is.
If we can issue a bond, then we can issue our own money.
Let this new money just circulate within the country and keep the euro for international dealings until we can move away from it. Just like having a good bank and a bad bank.
I worked in the public service. Bank of Ireland (Private bank with private investors!!) handled each transaction and in and out of the council. It charged well for that service. Who paid for that? The tax payer of course.

We were lied to about Anglo. The two Brians knew exactly what they were doing and what it would cost to prop up a dead bank. They were instucted to use Anglo as the catalyst that would force us to beg for international help - which isnt help at all.

Long story short, as I do not want to wander off on this thread topic. Please, please just educate yourself to the real workings of world economics and the people who want to own it all. The sooner we all do, the faster and better we can deal with the dis-info that we are fed.

Thats my 2 cents.
Appologies for the lenght of this speil...

Scofflaw

Let's be clear here - yes, this is conspiracy theorist stuff. Don't overdo it in this forum.

moderately,
Scofflaw

th3 s1aught3r

Can someone please answer one simple idiotic question

Who is bailing us out. The IMF or the EU

Scofflaw

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Can someone please answer one simple idiotic question

Who is bailing us out. The IMF or the EU

The EFSF - European Financial Stability Fund. That's a fund put together by the Eurozone states plus a couple of others, and which consists of the following facilities:

EU Commission - €60bn
Member States - €440bn
IMF - €250bn

Total: €750bn.

So the answer is a little confusing too. Primarily the Eurozone Member States of the EU, a chunk of the IMF, and a little bit of the EU Commission.

The British have made a separate offer of about €6bn, but the US hasn't bothered so far. A surprisingly large number of people are trying to give us money.

cordially,
Scofflaw

De Dannan

Scofflaw wrote: »

The EFSF - European Financial Stability Fund. That's a fund put together by the Eurozone states plus a couple of others, and which consists of the following facilities:

EU Commission - €60bn
Member States - €440bn
IMF - €250bn

Total: €750bn.

So the answer is a little confusing too. Primarily the Eurozone Member States of the EU, a chunk of the IMF, and a little bit of the EU Commission.

The British have made a separate offer of about €6bn, but the US hasn't bothered so far. A surprisingly large number of people are trying to give us money.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thanks
So when people say that the IMF are now running the country, this is not true. Who will be telling us what to do from now on, imf or EU ?
I mean if most of the money is coming from the member states, then the IMF influence here should be minimal. Or is it a case that the EU want the IMF in Ireland to make us take tough medicine ?

Scofflaw

De Dannan wrote: »

Thanks
So when people say that the IMF are now running the country, this is not true. Who will be telling us what to do from now on, imf or EU ?
I mean if most of the money is coming from the member states, then the IMF influence here should be minimal. Or is it a case that the EU want the IMF in Ireland to make us take tough medicine ?

To be honest, we have no idea at this point what form any conditions attached to a bailout would take, what size it would be, whether it would be a 'facility' that could be drawn on or a loan we had to take in full. About the only thing that seems certain is that there will be a bailout of some form. We therefore have no idea what involvement any part of the EFSF partners (which includes us, by the way) would have in steering policy, and under what conditions.

To a very large extent, that's why there's a state of confusion - because nothing has yet actually happened, and everybody's speculating wildly. We know that there are IMF and ECB/EU experts looking at the banks' books and talking to the government, we know there's pressure for us to take a bailout from other states who have to go to the bond markets well before us - and that's basically it. Everything else, including what the government is saying, is just talk.

Also, all of this is about a large loan - so the involvement of whoever makes that loan is similar to the involvement of a bank in the operation of a business when the bank has made them a crisis loan. Someone from the bank will get involved in the company to ensure the bank's money is safe, and the bank may set certain policy conditions. It won't get involved in the day to day running, or even micromanage the larger decisions as long as they don't conflict with the targets or conditions set by the bank.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Joezy

Loving the idea that the corporation tax rate is 'non negotiable'! Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Madd Finn

LevelSpirit wrote: »

Id like to add one more thing.
When did everybody in Ireland become a fuking economist. Was that when i was sleeping one night?

Not ****ing soon enough IMHO. If we had a better understanding of economics and financial history maybe we wouldn't have fallen for this bull**** snake-oil notion that the price of property can only go up and the faster it does so, the better.

With everybody putting what few extra pennies they had, and a lot they didn't, into property investment and inflating the bubble we were leaving ourselves wide open to collapse when an external shock came.

Which it did with the sub prime issue.

Mprikiman

Hello ladies and gentlemen, it is nice to meet you. I'm new to this forum and I am Greek. As you know, IMF already is chopping down Greece with the blessings of our Goverment. I'm glad you seem much more reactive and resistive against IMF than my fellow greek citizens. I support your cause and I sympathise with you. I wish for things to turn better for both of us. Its a pity to see, your fellow kind , suffer financialy and socialy. You are my favorite people in rest of Europe, keep it up and fight:)! I will try to read the whole topic so I can understand a few things about your situation, and if you are interested,inform you about our's too.



Greetings from Greece,
Stavros.

bt952000

Hi,

Orla Hessessy's letter to the Irish Times

(20./11/2010 . Page 17 , column 5) : http://www.google.ie/search?q=orla+hessessy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&num=10&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&q=orla+hessessy+letters+irish+times+kanaalstraat&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=1e1bec2137be78a3)

is a worthy letter to the editor

---START---

A chara, – While I am angry at the Government, bankers and developers who have plunged the country into its current state of rot, I am even angrier at those hypocrites who refuse to take responsibility for their contribution to the crisis.

I refer to those who elected the Fianna Fáil government, in its various incarnations, to those who bought opulent SUVs on credit and those who invested their wealth in expensive, status-symbol rubbish.

The nation elected this Government – repeatedly. Very few protested its fiscal policies throughout the boom and many in the country became greedy and squandered their short-lived wealth. The Government, although repugnant, is merely representative of us, the Irish people.

There is no question but that there should be a general election, and perhaps those bankers and developers should be prosecuted. However, the rest of the country must take responsibility for their own actions and get on with the painful years ahead. We must get over our anger and, more importantly, learn from our mistakes. – Is mise,

ORLA HENNESSY,

Kanaalstraat,

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

--- STOP---

Anyone who borrowed excessive amounts of money to buy "status symbol rubbish" is as guilty as the politicians , developers and bankers who facilitated them.

You know who you are.

And as for those of you who voted for FF , what are you complaining about ?

Orla.Hen

Hey,

I wrote that letter to the Times and am delighted there are people who agree with me. I was just sick and tired of everyone being so angry and self-righteous.

I am wary of the EU/IMF bailout and the conditions they will impose but the sooner the better we just get on with it. And, whatever we do, we can't let such a disaster happen again. Who knows if Fine Gael/Labour will do any better...

gym_mom

Orla.Hen wrote: »

Hey,

I wrote that letter to the Times and am delighted there are people who agree with me. I was just sick and tired of everyone being so angry and self-righteous.

I am wary of the EU/IMF bailout and the conditions they will impose but the sooner the better we just get on with it. And, whatever we do, we can't let such a disaster happen again. Who knows if Fine Gael/Labour will do any better...

I like your thinking Orla !! It's so true, we all bought in to the "good life" during the "good times" and thought we would continue like this indefinitely. Its a shame we were all so gullable !

Emme

gym_mom wrote: »

I like your thinking Orla !! It's so true, we all bought in to the "good life" during the "good times" and thought we would continue like this indefinitely. Its a shame we were all so gullable !

Not everyone bought into the good life. I didn't. To add insult to injury I'm a low grade civil servant and didn't see any of the Celtic Tiger jollies. OK, we got a few salary increases but there were no bonuses or Christmas parties (we always had to pay for ours right through the boom) or any of the perks that people got in the private sector. In a way it was lucky that I couldn't afford a house on my salary, but I don't have happy memories of the Celtic Tiger.

I drove a clapped out car, took only one holiday a year and it wasn't always abroad either. There were no weekends to spas in Galway or to Prague and no trips to Noo Yawk shopping. The Celtic Tiger passed me by and it passed a lot of others by as well. I did spend some money getting a degree at night while I was working full time, but that didn't really pay off as the downturn was just starting when I qualified. People laughed at my clapped out car and some even stopped talking to me when they bought houses on 100% mortgages and I was still renting.

The media has given public servants a rotten time since the crash and I will admit that some of the higher grades are getting it too easy, but they never suffer, it's always the lower grades. We don't mind working harder or taking a cut as long as everyone suffers equally, but that's not going to happen. Those at the bottom will suffer most. Cowen, Harney and co will probably get off scot free, even if they are booted out they will still keep their pensions while our pensions will be cut to zilch and we'll probably have to work until we're 75.:rolleyes:

Those who weren't gullible and didn't buy into the good life aren't much better off for it unless we emigrate. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to emigrate.:(

Max Power1

Mprikiman wrote: »

Hello ladies and gentlemen, it is nice to meet you. I'm new to this forum and I am Greek. As you know, IMF already is chopping down Greece with the blessings of our Goverment. I'm glad you seem much more reactive and resistive against IMF than my fellow greek citizens. I support your cause and I sympathise with you. I wish for things to turn better for both of us. Its a pity to see, your fellow kind , suffer financialy and socialy. You are my favorite people in rest of Europe, keep it up and fight:)! I will try to read the whole topic so I can understand a few things about your situation, and if you are interested,inform you about our's too.



Greetings from Greece,
Stavros.

I would believe that the reactions will be all smoke and no fire as always in Ireland. We mouth off in the Irish Times letters columns, Boards, P.ie etc but when push comes to shove we do nothing about the problem.

soundbyte

Orla.Hen wrote: »

Hey,

I wrote that letter to the Times and am delighted there are people who agree with me. I was just sick and tired of everyone being so angry and self-righteous.

Great letter.

At the last General Election, there was a strong anti-FF sentiment before polling day. The evening after polling, a group of friends and I met up for a pint. I asked one, an intelligent guy, who he voted for. He said FF. I asked why, and his reply was "it's better the devil you know".

In 2007, I put my money where my mouth was and sold my house, as I believed there serious trouble looming in the market. I was looked at like some sort of imbecile, but as it turned out, it was pretty much the top of the market.

In November 2008, when I told a couple of colleagues that I could see no alternative but the arrival of the IMF (I estimated it would be in April 2009), they stared in disbelief like I was a nutter preaching on Grafton Street.

These are the FFers. They walking amongst us. These are the 17%. Shame on them.

krd

The IMF plan.

The IMF policy document for Ireland July.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2010/cr10209.pdf

To give you the crucial digest of the key proposal. The IMF plan is an "internal devaluation" for Ireland.

Since we don't have our own currency we can't devalue by letting the value of our currency fall. (We couldn't do this even if did have our punts back - our currency would collapse - we wouldn't be able to buy petrol or food - our farmers would starve us like they did in the 50s by selling all their produce abroad.)

The idea is, that by beggarising the majority of the population, it will make us more competitive.

The IMF have been hawking this rotten bag of goods since the late 60s, early 70s. IT HAS NEVER WORKED ANYWHERE. If low wages truly led to economic prosperity then every African country would be an industrial power house.

It's worked for China - but it is a one time trick - and more times than not it does not work. You can not run a competitive economy on the cheap.

Another typical factor in the IMF intervention is the use of the drawn down funds to pay foreign banking debts.

Global finance is hugely dysfunctional. All the smart suits and flash cars - that's all complete and utter bull. It's driven largely by magical thinking - something like; I wear an expensive suit, I am very well paid, therefore all my thinking is correct. Ireland is rotten with the same magical thinking.

I actually didn't believe it would come to the IMF - I believed we were going to get bailed by the EFSF. George Osborne is crapping his pants - An IMF year zero - has a very strong chance of bringing down the British economy.

Have seen how pale and sick looking George Osborne is looking - that's because of us.

And would people should shut up about how sick Brian Lenihan looks, - we all look sick.

The purpose of IMF originally, was to facilitate the smooth functioning of the global economy to avoid the catastrophic global conflicts that economic dysfunction has led us into for the last few hundred years. This not what it does - instead it functions to encourage really awful banking and bad economic development.

The bigger picture - where Ireland fits in. This little island of dishonest and ignorant hobgoblins could bring down western civilisation.

R P McMurphy

krd wrote: »

The IMF plan.

The IMF policy document for Ireland July.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2010/cr10209.pdf


The bigger picture - where Ireland fits in. This little island of dishonest and ignorant hobgoblins could bring down western civilisation.

Ah now I see, is that what they meant by the constant references to us as beinga small country but punching well above our weight. A swift knock out blow

krd

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Ah now I see, is that what they meant by the constant references to us as being a small country but punching well above our weight. A swift knock out blow

Cute hoorism is not a uniquely Irish affliction. Or Greek. The international mechanisms should provide for a more stable environment. But they don't. Simply because there is too much cute hoorism in the international financial community.

So instead of a stable global system, we have a house of cards. Ireland is one of those cards. The big idea behind the Euro was stability. The architects of the Euro underestimated how badly the ignorant Irish, the ignorant Spanish, Portuguese, Italians and Greeks could behave. We're greasy people. Greasy ignorant people who are proud of their con men and eejits. The continentals thought their hard learned sensibilities would spread to us. They misunderestimated us. We have abused their innocence and trust.


It's one of those "for want of a nail the kingdom was lost" things. We are that nail. We are that nail, for the shoe, that goes on George Osbourne's horse.

We are not that big - but there are several scenarios, of varying severity, in how much damage we could do to mother England.

A mild outcome; we would knock a few points off the UK's GDP. We send them into recession. Making a mockery of all the Tories fine plans. This is very serious stuff. Even in a mild scenario we can really hurt them. And that pain will ricochet right back at us and then back at them - a beggar my neighbour situation, where neither side has the intention of causing pain to the other - it's just the way things pan out - all you can do is watch through your fingers.

The doomsday scenario is worse. If, for whatever reason, we renege on our debts to England - it's into the hundreds of billions - The UK government will need another bail out for their banks. We could set their economy back decades. We could bankrupt them. We could set off a chain reaction that could destroy their biggest companies.

Negative economic growth is better at perpetuating itself than positive growth.

The European doomsday scenario - is we bring down the entire European banking system. Which will in turn bring down America.

Which will lead to the end of Western Civilisation - hello Asian Dominance.

The international mechanisms will have failed and economic disputes will be settled by wars. Back to our barbaric and insane past. Back to behaving like monkeys fighting over bananas.

The markets are not actually rational. They're a schizophrenic. Where they can hold radically conflicting beliefs simultaneously - and like schizophrenics they believe their some times deranged perceptions to be reality. This leaves national governments, big or small, little room for manoeuvre. Merkle can't even hint at necessary reform without panicking the horses.

hobbitt

Max Power1 wrote: »

I would believe that the reactions will be all smoke and no fire as always in Ireland. We mouth off in the Irish Times letters columns, Boards, P.ie etc but when push comes to shove we do nothing about the problem.

There were no protests about the smoking ban. Country went downhill ever since.

newmug

FF's punishment should be that we vote them in again!

Scofflaw

Unstickied.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Iang87

After reading through the thread can i just ask has the IMF ever come into a country and made it better.

What is the brightside to all this after reading all the negatives about the IMF or is there one?