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Students' Union and hot air
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sorry guys- badly need to butt in here and nit pick at a misconception!52%(Or was it 48%?) of students don't pay registration fees. That means 52% of students are either farmers, mature students or their parents earn under €52,000 a year.
Either way, it's a huge proportion so I don't see an increase in registration fees suddenly skewing/changing the demographics of who goes to college.
for what it's worth I agree with what you've written so far (haven't got through the rest of the debate and might not bother since it's already going around in circles, same way the fees debate always does thanks to the protestors inability to accept that money doesn't grow on trees and this decision to up reg fees is not actually a "mortal sin" being committed by the bad bad boogey man- government but a tough yet necessary step in keeping our counrty afloat.)... anywho.....
i had to interject (you may notice i'm not normally a poster here) when i saw you assume that all farmers don't pay reg. Hello, nice to meet you: I'm a "farmer". actually my dad's the one who's the farmer but when you refered to farmers i assume you did mean their offspring? do you refer to doctors children as doctors out of interest? i don't mean to come across as argumentative or rude here, i'm tired, up late and also trying to emphatically convey a point. So, I'm a farmers daughter as are my 3 sisters whom are also attending university. we all pay registration, always did and always will. to think that my dad paid well over 5K just to get us in the door this year- (and no we're not rich, perhaps we were once well off but now we can't even heat our house) and there's people out there assuming we got in for free. honestly, you think you've heard all the ill-informed and sometimes insulting assumptions people make about us "dirty farmers"... and then BAM they shoot you down with another faster than you can say Foot and Mouth Disease.
(again not saying you said i'm a dirty farmer... but an assumption about what all farmers do warrants lumping in with all the other catch phrases associated with my kind)
an apology would be lovely although probably not even necessary as you weren't being mean on purpose, just by accident. but do you know what would be delightful? if you could refrain from making said assumptions about farmers or their offspring again. same goes for everyone- or i'll be out after ye with me pitchfork and sheep dog ya hear???!!!
ps. i might have a chip on my shoulder.... but my dad is a clever man who never got to go to uni as he was the oldest and had to work to afford to send his siblings to med school and law school. he works his ass off day and night, always did and his no.1 priority is our education. i distinctly remember one particular moment when a classmate of mine (who's parents are doctors) asked me what my father did and then looked disgusted when i told her.
apart from the obvious "farmers stink and are stupid" tripe i couldn't figure out what her attitude was about. i thought she was above believing in such cliches. then last week another classmate told me how she knew a girl who was a farmers daughter who was actually wealthy but got a grant because they managed it though the farm or something.....??? and now this. so i've concluded this is probably why i was scoffed at for being a farmers daughter! she thought i was cheating the system! honestly, i've no idea how any of the "Wealthy" farming families qualify for grants. maybe they're cheating the system, fooling the tax man and all the rest. maybe. or maybe they're actually not rich at all?? maybe all the livestock or whatever they have all died from an outbreak of TB? (government steps in to help when that happens and farmers income takes a nose-dive naturally enough).
eitherway i needed to rant and put it out there: farming families do pay for registration provided they're not eligible for a grant just like everyone else.
sorry if i've taken things off on a tangent.
as you were... :pac:0 -
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I meant to put in children but forgot!
i had to interject (you may notice i'm not normally a poster here) when i saw you assume that all farmers don't pay reg. Hello, nice to meet you: I'm a "farmer". actually my dad's the one who's the farmer but when you refered to farmers i assume you did mean their offspring? do you refer to doctors children as doctors out of interest? i don't mean to come across as argumentative or rude here, i'm tired, up late and also trying to emphatically convey a point.
Not all farmers children get grants and neither do all mature students. I simply said the % figure was made up of mature students, farmers childrens or students from a low income family. I didn't mean it to include all farmers or all mature students.So, I'm a farmers daughter as are my 3 sisters whom are also attending university. we all pay registration, always did and always will. to think that my dad paid well over 5K just to get us in the door this year- (and no we're not rich, perhaps we were once well off but now we can't even heat our house) and there's people out there assuming we got in for free. honestly, you think you've heard all the ill-informed and sometimes insulting assumptions people make about us "dirty farmers"... and then BAM they shoot you down with another faster than you can say Foot and Mouth Disease. (again not saying you said i'm a dirty farmer... but an assumption about what all farmers do warrants lumping in with all the other catch phrases associated with my kind)
an apology would be lovely although probably not even necessary as you weren't being mean on purpose, just by accident. but do you know what would be delightful? if you could refrain from making said assumptions about farmers or their offspring again. same goes for everyone- or i'll be out after ye with me pitchfork and sheep dog ya hear???!!!
ps. i might have a chip on my shoulder.... but my dad is a clever man who never got to go to uni as he was the oldest and had to work to afford to send his siblings to med school and law school. he works his ass off day and night, always did and his no.1 priority is our education. i distinctly remember one particular moment when a classmate of mine (who's parents are doctors) asked me what my father did and then looked disgusted when i told her.
apart from the obvious "farmers stink and are stupid" tripe i couldn't figure out what her attitude was about. i thought she was above believing in such cliches. then last week another classmate told me how she knew a girl who was a farmers daughter who was actually wealthy but got a grant because they managed it though the farm or something.....??? and now this. so i've concluded this is probably why i was scoffed at for being a farmers daughter! she thought i was cheating the system! honestly, i've no idea how any of the "Wealthy" farming families qualify for grants. maybe they're cheating the system, fooling the tax man and all the rest. maybe. or maybe they're actually not rich at all?? maybe all the livestock or whatever they have all died from an outbreak of TB? (government steps in to help when that happens and farmers income takes a nose-dive naturally enough).
eitherway i needed to rant and put it out there: farming families do pay for registration provided they're not eligible for a grant just like everyone else.
sorry if i've taken things off on a tangent.
as you were... :pac:
As for why farmers were included, take a look at these(and again understand, I wasn't targetting them or implying they play the system, just that a large proportion get grants/reg fees paid)
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fury-as-thousands-of-farmers-children-to-lose-college-grants-1846069.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/farmers-get-1in6-college-grants-282148.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/farmers-children-the-winners-since-abolition-of-college-fees-2383735.html
So you can see, they are a large proportion of the people that don't pay registration fee, hence being included.
I didn't say they get worse education, I said they don't get an educational advantage. I also never said they find it harder to get into college.With the sort of rubbish Tragedy comes out with (such as that people in fee-paying schools get worse education and find it harder to get into college), you can definitely take the "farmers" comments with a pinch of salt.
The only person spouting rubbish was you, sorry friend! Unless you come back and quote me actually saying "students in fee-paying schools get worse education and find it harder to get in to college", I'm just going to ignore any further nonsensical drivel you come out with because you can't comprehend what I actually write. Sorry!
Look up what advantage means in the dictionary, i'll give you a hint: it doesn't mean better or more successful.
Students from Access programmes(who tend to be from disadvantaged backgrounds) in colleges/universities tend to have far higher pass rates that standard entry students, and yet access programmes don't offer any educational advantage once in University. How can this be possible according to PFM/Pet, when money and private schooling is the deciding factor in how well you do? Maybe because they understand that money isn't the central issue(which can be paralleled in how urban regeneration schemes in the 80's/90's and even early 00's were spectacular failure despite costing billions). The issue is culture and belief - although admittedly among other aspects. Students from disadvantaged areas get more educational advantage because they have to achieve less educationally, to get the same result as someone from middle/upper class. That's what advantage means, by definition(take golf for an example).
My girlfriend has done training as a part of her college course in Southill, Limerick(which I'm sure you've heard of), a relatively posh school in Castletroy, Limerick and a gigantic primary school in Crumlin. Our friends who are all doing B.Ed(primary school teaching) in Mary I are currently scattered across Limerick/Clare/Tipperary among some extremely disadvantaged areas.
It really, really, really isn't lack of resources or money. Taking that view is both naive and damaging, naive because the recent history of the state shows that throwing money at a problem only tends to make it a bigger problem(HSE, Schools system, 3rd Level Education, Public Sector, Urban Regeneration Schemes etc etc) and damaging because it perpetuates the myth that people from those areas only need more money to be able to attend 3rd Level.
Go into one of those schools and ask the teachers why they think the disparity of numbers going from 2nd Level to 3rd level exists. They'll tell you the same thing. I won't spoil the surprise but I'll give you a hint: It isn't having old school buildings or having 1 teacher per 29 students instead of 1 per 28.
See, unlike PFM/Pet, I actually have investigated this a good bit, have looked into it, talked to people who've experienced it(either as someone coming from one of those areas, or teaching their). Looking into the figures.
I think it's shameful and a national disgrace that under a free education system, one sector of society isn't benefitting and being completely left behind. How many potential entrepreneurs, budding scientists, poets, artists etc are we missing out on because of it? I mean, people in disadvantaged areas aren't any less intelligent, they're just less educated.
/rant over/0 -
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