Students' Union and hot air

Muffin top

Should the students' Union not spend their time and resources on matters where their opinions may actually count, such matters as a lunch room on campus (the JCR is not on campus) perhaps?; where their opinions may actually count; instead of protesting the inevitable reintroduction of fees'?

Tragedy

Fee's aren't being reintroduced.

They spent €14,000 of our money on a class reps weekend - wtf? All our class reps have done is send us to Andrews Lane Theatre events that were already happening. Wonder how much free t-shirts and banners and whatnot are costing for the Education not Emigration(which in itself is a nonsense slogan). Would they tell me if I asked?

'An unnamed SU source' told me that the €3,000 figure was made up and it's well known that it was made up in the higher echelons of the SU/USI, which is absolutely fantastic as now the Government can come out and say "We'll only increase it to €2,500" and get away with it scot free. Naive incompetent idiots.

JonJoeDali

Muffin top wrote: »

Should the students' Union not spend their time and resources on matters where their opinions may actually count, such matters as a lunch room on campus (the JCR is not on campus) perhaps?; where their opinions may actually count; instead of protesting the inevitable reintroduction of fees'?

Trinity doesn't have a "campus".

JonJoeDali

Tragedy wrote: »

Fee's aren't being reintroduced.

They spent €14,000 of our money on a class reps weekend - wtf? All our class reps have done is send us to Andrews Lane Theatre events that were already happening. Wonder how much free t-shirts and banners and whatnot are costing for the Education not Emigration(which in itself is a nonsense slogan). Would they tell me if I asked?

'An unnamed SU source' told me that the €3,000 figure was made up and it's well known that it was made up in the higher echelons of the SU/USI, which is absolutely fantastic as now the Government can come out and say "We'll only increase it to €2,500" and get away with it scot free. Naive incompetent idiots.

Pink training (along with getting drunk and damaging fixtures and fittings) is the life-blood of any annex of the USI. As is trying to get oneself on the evening news in a cheap suit and mismatched tie. Failing that, the audience of Frontline will do.

Muffin top

Fees will inevitably be reintroduced. The registration fee is fees by another guise.

I just irritates me that they are so vocal on universal issues and no very active on the ground, on daily student life issues so to speak.

JonJoeDali

Muffin top wrote: »

Fees will inevitably be reintroduced. The registration fee is fees by another guise.

I just irritates me that they are so vocal on universal issues and no very active on the ground, on daily student life issues so to speak.

To be fair, fair trade coffee, sexual "health" and workers' rights in South America are far more pressing issues.

Muffin top

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Trinity doesn't have a "campus".

It also dosen't have a lunchroom

gearoidof

The student rep training was quite enjoyable, I must say.

Mark200

What annoys me is that the USI's policy (and I believe TCD SU's) is to just oppose everything. Cuts are inevitable. The Government won't, and shouldn't, listen to the USI if they're going to say no to every idea the Government are going to come out with. What the USI should be doing is coming up with the best way that the Government can make savings in the Dept of Education with the smallest negative impact on students... whether that be through a loan system, graduate tax or whatever.

Tragedy

I've said it from the start of the Education not Emigration campaign - campaign against inefficiencies and misspending in Trinity, not in the Department of Education/Ireland as a whole. The SU could, conceivably, achieve something that way(although it probably still wouldn't judging by the ethos seems to pervade it) whereas organising a march where most of the people going just want a daytrip and an excuse to session does nothing.

I lie, it does something, it actually damages any SU/USI fight.

Groinshot

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Trinity doesn't have a "campus".

Not again, We've been through this already...

Tragedy wrote: »

'An unnamed SU source' told me that the €3,000 figure was made up and it's well known that it was made up in the higher echelons of the SU/USI, which is absolutely fantastic as now the Government can come out and say "We'll only increase it to €2,500" and get away with it scot free. Naive incompetent idiots.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1101/1224282401934.html

Not getting involved in this topic, but just saying maybe your SU source may not ahve been completely correct. I know I got my figures from the papers and media, not from our SU.

Tragedy

Groinshot wrote: »

N
Not getting involved in this topic, but just saying maybe your SU source may not ahve been completely correct. I know I got my figures from the papers and media, not from our SU.

You get your figures from the media.

Find any source that mentions €3,000 before the SU.

Go on, I dare ya

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=EDJ20100505.XML&Ex=All&Page=3
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0506/1224269793575.html
Mary Coughlan refusing to rule in or out registration fee hikes in Budget 2010.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-fees-but-student-charges-will-soar-1910829.html
Batt O'Keefe refusing to rule in or out registration fee hikes in Budget 2009.(And amazingly, there were none! :O :O :O)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0824/1224277444882.html
Out of nowhere, USI/SU's suddenly coming up with the €2,500/€3,000 figure(which is bollocks, no departments had hard figures on specific cuts back then)

Jonathan

Tragedy wrote: »

'An unnamed SU source' told me that the €3,000 figure was made up and it's well known that it was made up in the higher echelons of the SU/USI, which is absolutely fantastic as now the Government can come out and say "We'll only increase it to €2,500" and get away with it scot free. Naive incompetent idiots.

Heh. I was just discussing this with someone else last night, and I made the same point.

boblong

Tragedy wrote: »

They spent €14,000 of our money on a class reps weekend - wtf?

Woah woah woah woah woah woah. Woah. Woah.

Lois this is not my batman glass.

What do you mean by a lunch room? If you want somewhere to buy food go to the buttery or the hamilton restaurant, if you want somewhere to sit and eat your own food, there's plenty of places to do that too.
Also, even if a lunch room shortage was an issue that mattered, where would you put it, considering you say it would need to be on campus (which I also don't get, unless you're on crutches the JCR isn't that far away)?
Maybe the figures for the proposed grant cuts and reg fee increase are wrong. Personally, I don't care. Even if there is only the slightest possibility that they're going to happen, I think it's well worth marching for. My class had someone come in and talk to us the other day from the welfare office, clearly upset, saying that she has to watch 3-4 people drop out every week because they can't afford to stay in college and she just can't help their situation. That's how it is at the moment. If these cuts go ahead, there'll be a lot less people able to go to college next year, myself included. I'll be unemployed, uneducated and unimpressed by your lunch room.

Groinshot

Tragedy wrote: »

You get your figures from the media.

Find any source that mentions €3,000 before the SU.

Go on, I dare ya

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=EDJ20100505.XML&Ex=All&Page=3
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0506/1224269793575.html
Mary Coughlan refusing to rule in or out registration fee hikes in Budget 2010.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-fees-but-student-charges-will-soar-1910829.html
Batt O'Keefe refusing to rule in or out registration fee hikes in Budget 2009.(And amazingly, there were none! :O :O :O)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0824/1224277444882.html
Out of nowhere, USI/SU's suddenly coming up with the €2,500/€3,000 figure(which is bollocks, no departments had hard figures on specific cuts back then)

Should also put in there that I don''t Listen to the Su alot, so wouldn't know which came first. my bad... Sorry.I wiwsh the USI had said no to 2000 euro, then it might only be 1750 nextr year...

Groinshot

true-or-false wrote: »

(which I also don't get, unless you're on crutches the JCR isn't that far away)?

I was on crutches last year, even still the JCR isn't that far away...

Muffin top

Groinshot wrote: »

true-or-false wrote: »

(which I also don't get, unless you're on crutches the JCR isn't that far away)?

I was on crutches last year, even still the JCR isn't that far away...

This is very true; I just thought it was more of a worthy case for the SU than tomorrows protest.

Tragedy

true-or-false wrote: »

Maybe the figures for the proposed grant cuts and reg fee increase are wrong. Personally, I don't care.

I do care.
There was absolutely NO NEED to raise it as an issue and give it a profile.

Let's get hypothetical: Can you imagine if the largest union in Ireland said they were against increasing the lowest(20%) rate of tax to 40%, got all it's members riled up about it, went out marching all based on the Government refusing to rule out any sort of tax increase?

And can you then imagine if the majority of the population didn't really notice or care?

What message do you think this would give the Government?
What ideas do you think this would give the Government?

How do you think the public would react if it 'only' increased to 30%? Relief? Happiness? Acceptance?

This was an incredibly naive, stupid, dangerous and costly campaign by the USI. And 48% of us are going to pay for it next year and the year after and the year after.

Oh, well if they're only protesting against a Even if there is only the slightest possibility that they're going to happen, I think it's well worth marching for. My class had someone come in and talk to us the other day from the welfare office, clearly upset, saying that she has to watch 3-4 people drop out every week because they can't afford to stay in college and she just can't help their situation. That's how it is at the moment. If these cuts go ahead, there'll be a lot less people able to go to college next year, myself included. I'll be unemployed, uneducated and unimpressed by your lunch room.

I'm sorry, maybe more of them should have gotten a summer job before college. Or deferred and worked a year to gain some extra income.

If they've ran out of money after 6 weeks, what the hell were they thinking in the first place? Just because college is 'free', doesn't mean you can afford to live while attending 'free' education and doesn't mean you have to go straight away.

It must be heartbreaking to have to drop out already because of no money, but I don't have any sympathy. College is a choice. Choosing to attend knowing you have zero financial security and probably won't last a semester is a choice.


I have plenty of friends who've worked until 20/21 just to go to college for the first time, and these are people who:
a) Get no form of grant
b) Get no sort of assitance from parents, despite parents income denying them a grant.

aas

Tragedy wrote: »

I do care.
There was absolutely NO NEED to raise it as an issue and give it a profile.

Let's get hypothetical: Can you imagine if the largest union in Ireland said they were against increasing the lowest(20%) rate of tax to 40%, got all it's members riled up about it, went out marching all based on the Government refusing to rule out any sort of tax increase?

And can you then imagine if the majority of the population didn't really notice or care?

What message do you think this would give the Government?
What ideas do you think this would give the Government?

How do you think the public would react if it 'only' increased to 30%? Relief? Happiness? Acceptance?

This was an incredibly naive, stupid, dangerous and costly campaign by the USI. And 48% of us are going to pay for it next year and the year after and the year after.



I'm sorry, maybe more of them should have gotten a summer job before college. Or deferred and worked a year to gain some extra income.

If they've ran out of money after 6 weeks, what the hell were they thinking in the first place? Just because college is 'free', doesn't mean you can afford to live while attending 'free' education and doesn't mean you have to go straight away.

It must be heartbreaking to have to drop out already because of no money, but I don't have any sympathy. College is a choice. Choosing to attend knowing you have zero financial security and probably won't last a semester is a choice.


I have plenty of friends who've worked until 20/21 just to go to college for the first time, and these are people who:
a) Get no form of grant
b) Get no sort of assitance from parents, despite parents income denying them a grant.

This is really bizarre, you're pointing out the huge disparity in the effort required to attend college because of the registration fee and cost of living and your conclusion is to reintroduce fees?

rc28

Anyone else think the SU should scrap the elaborate class reps training weekend? It cost E15,000 of our money and for what exactly? What is required of a class rep that they need to go to a 2 day party in a hotel?

It seems like it's just one big pissup and I notice in Trinity News that damage was done to the hotel again this year - that cost us an extra E3,000 last year. All of this is even more annoying when one remembers that we are forced to join tcdsu and pay its membership fees at the start of every year.

boblong

rc28 wrote: »

All of this is even more annoying when one remembers that we are forced to join tcdsu and pay its membership fees at the start of every year.

Is it at all possible to leave the SU?

Tragedy

aas wrote: »

This is really bizarre, you're pointing out the huge disparity in the effort required to attend college because of the registration fee and cost of living and your conclusion is to reintroduce fees?

What is bizarre? Where did I post a conclusion? Where did I say I wanted to re-introduce fees?

I said Steph going into lectures and telling people sob stories of students who've ran out of money and can't afford to keep attending college 6 weeks into the first term is a load of cack.

I also said why I thought it was a load of cack.

Where did I say we should reintroduce fees?

Mark200

aas wrote: »

This is really bizarre, you're pointing out the huge disparity in the effort required to attend college because of the registration fee and cost of living and your conclusion is to reintroduce fees?

If fees were re-introduced where students could pay the fees back when they're earning enough to do so, then that would mean the Government would have more money to spend on things like student assistance grants.

sron

rc28 wrote: »

Anyone else think the SU should scrap the elaborate class reps training weekend? It cost E15,000 of our money and for what exactly? What is required of a class rep that they need to go to a 2 day party in a hotel?

It seems like it's just one big pissup and I notice in Trinity News that damage was done to the hotel again this year - that cost us an extra E3,000 last year. All of this is even more annoying when one remembers that we are forced to join tcdsu and pay its membership fees at the start of every year.

The SU ought to address this publicly. They have no credibility lamenting the misappropriating of student fees and pissing away the same money for ****s and giggles.
The TN editorial makes some good points on the SU's sensationalism too.

gearoidof

It should be pointed out that all class reps had to sign damage liability before they could be let into the hotel.

bythewoods

gearoidof wrote: »

It should be pointed out that all class reps had to sign damage liability before they could be let into the hotel.

That's fine then. That makes the 14,000€ thing for what can only be described as a glorified piss up alright then, phew

Dubs

Mark200 wrote: »

If fees were re-introduced where students could pay the fees back when they're earning enough to do so, then that would mean the Government would have more money to spend on things like student assistance grants.

Which would be a lovely system, but it's not the topic at hand. Fees aren't going to be re-introduced any time soon, the registration fee is going to be increased.

If that €3000 figure was made up by the USI then it was a pretty bad move on their part, but the fact is that the government is now using a figure and it's still an increase of €1000, and personally, I think that's still worth going out to protest against.

If it does increase by that much there isn't going to be a system in place where people pay back the money in the future when they're earning enough. It's more or less going to be either you have the money available or you don't go to college, which is going to be the case for a lot more people than it is currently. Someone said they should have gotten a Summer job or taken a year out to work, seriously, where have you been for the past couple of years? The odd student might be lucky enough to find a job, but there certainly won't be the case for all those that are going to be effected.

Someone else said in the other thread that they were upset about missing their labs. You're just missing 3 hours of your education, and I question how upset you really are about missing them, but if these fees are increased then hundreds of potential students out there are going to be missing 4 years of their education.

If fees themselves were reintroduced and there was a system in place where the debts were the students alone and they could pay them back when they were earning enough so that they could, I'd be all for it, but increasing the registration fee is really the worst possible thing that they could do, so I really think this protest is a worthwhile thing to take part in.

rc28

gearoidof wrote: »

It should be pointed out that all class reps had to sign damage liability before they could be let into the hotel.

Right well it will be interesting trying to find the individual who left blood on the walls and broke furniture. The guy who brought this to the attention of Trinity News (a member of the 'Oversight Commission' in the SU, whatever that is) said that the room which was damaged "was the party room" and "got completely trashed".

This guy then goes on to say that the students got angry after security tried to take the drink off them and "extra damage happened because of this". It's not really a wonder to me then that "security were being bitches" as he put it. WTF!! He's objecting to the fact that security were trying to stop drunken twats causing further damage??These are the people that represent us :eek:


In answer to the other question - I think you can only officially not be a member of TCDSU by simply not being a TCD student anymore! You pay the fee for it at the same time as the registration fee, there is no opt-out.

Tragedy

Dubs wrote: »

Someone said they should have gotten a Summer job or taken a year out to work, seriously, where have you been for the past couple of years? The odd student might be lucky enough to find a job, but there certainly won't be the case for all those that are going to be effected.

I've been working(in fact I worked 4 years waiting to be a mature student and earning enough to support myself if full fees were re-introduced). Every single one of my friends who goes to college has or is working. As in fact does every one of my friends full stop. Girlfriend works weekends in an amusement arcade, two of her college friends work in a petrol station, another one works in a clothes shop, three more work in hotels, and two more work in restaurants/cafes.

Two friends teach music(piano and flute), two friends of theres work in a cafe/hotel back home respectively. Another friend works as a cafeteria girl in St Vincents and I know three people working in the new Landsdowne Road.

I honestly can't think of a single friend of mine who doesn't have a full or part time job. Not one.

And anyone I know who was desperate to find a job recently, found one because they were motivated enough. There are part time jobs out there, they don't pay well and they aren't nice, but they're there.

I call bull****.

Dubs

Tragedy wrote: »

I've been working(in fact I worked 4 years waiting to be a mature student and earning enough to support myself if full fees were re-introduced). Every single one of my friends who goes to college has or is working. As in fact does every one of my friends full stop. Girlfriend works weekends in an amusement arcade, two of her college friends work in a petrol station, another one works in a clothes shop, three more work in hotels, and two more work in restaurants/cafes.

Two friends teach music(piano and flute), two friends of theres work in a cafe/hotel back home respectively. Another friend works as a cafeteria girl in St Vincents and I know three people working in the new Landsdowne Road.

I honestly can't think of a single friend of mine who doesn't have a full or part time job. Not one.

And anyone I know who was desperate to find a job recently, found one because they were motivated enough. There are part time jobs out there, they don't pay well and they aren't nice, but they're there.

I call bull****.

I'm sorry, you call bull**** about what? Look, I'm sure if the odd 400,000 (?) people on the dole at the moment out actively looking for jobs (and I know not all of them are actively looking but a hell of a lot are) were in your circle of friends then the employment crisis in Ireland would be over but unfortunately we can't all be so lucky.

If a student manages to get a job that they can pay for college with, well then well for them. But there just are not enough available to cater for everyone, despite how many of your friends may have them.

And on a side note, the Landsdowne Road jobs aren't enough to pay your way through college. They're a bit of pocket money, nothing too much more.