Wednesday's March Info

PrivateEye

This is a wonderful letter directed at USI President Gary Redmond from a UCD graduate and current NUI Maynooth student.

http://free-education.info/a-letter-to-the-usi-president-from-a-graduate/

You may be interested to know that on Tuesday 20th May 2003, I went along with members of USI officer board, and other active students, to occupy the then Department of Social, Family and Community Affairs. This was organised by USI. We went from there to lock-on to the gates of the Dail at around lunchtime(also organised by USI).

Gary Redmond made a show of himself in the media today. Still, what do you expect....

most of the forefront, might I add, were from the Social Workers' Group and not wearing the USI t-shirts

That's not true at all. There were around 2,000 people who followed the breakaway from the main march. Of these, the left bloc comprised the minority. There was a sea of yellow shirts at the Dail when we arrived there. There were even a few inside the Department.

USI used to occupy government buildings too. I don't see why anyone should apologise for that tactic. You could march from Cork to Belfast if you want to, the fact is the Irish student movement (including USI) have always relied on direct action.

----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-REt8kCjCRo

Unbelieivable policing.

King Mob

Wow dude...

It's dishonest, mud slinging bollocks like the crap you just posted that has made me disillusioned with left leaning politics. And it's the same bollocks and martyr complex that is going to totally over shadow the point of the march and lose all sympathy for students.

So thanks.

hypersquirrel

Does anybody care to explain why the likes Éirigí were invited to attend this? I don't think anybody expected them to be peaceful. Those who invited them are responsible for damaging the reputation of Irish students and for endangering students and gardaí alike.

Wendero

That is one reason why I am reluctant to attend activities like these. I think everyone should think both once and twice before participating in student marches. You could end up on a picture together with some hooligans, and that could ruin your career if your future boss decides to google your name.

I actually do have sympathy for the students who may have to drop out or adjust to a significantly lower living standard than they have now, but like all other student marches, this one offered no solutions, only shouting and fingerpointing (no, it's not Fianna Fail's fault Ireland's going through a recession; it's their fault that Ireland wasn't better prepared). Try focus on solutions instead. Use your creativity to see where cuts can be made without it hurting the long-term growth of the Irish economy, or those that are already worst off (students, btw, does not belong to that category in my opinion).

Liber8or

PrivateEye wrote: »

This is a wonderful letter directed at USI President Gary Redmond from a UCD graduate and current NUI Maynooth student.

http://free-education.info/a-letter-to-the-usi-president-from-a-graduate/

You may be interested to know that on Tuesday 20th May 2003, I went along with members of USI officer board, and other active students, to occupy the then Department of Social, Family and Community Affairs. This was organised by USI. We went from there to lock-on to the gates of the Dail at around lunchtime(also organised by USI).

Relevence? Since the USI stated that occupying the offices was NOT part of the protest today, what happened on Wednesday simply makes an example of how out of control the entire protest was.

From RTE.ie: Mr Redmond said the occupation of the Department of Finance by a number of protestors was not representative of the USI.


Clearly you have more issues with his political affiliation as opposed to his concerns as a representative of students.

USI used to occupy government buildings too. I don't see why anyone should apologise for that tactic.

If the USI want to occupy buildings they would have set out a motion to do so. Instead, a number of of people took it upon themselves to do that. Main difference between then and now, was about 39,000 more students. Thats called chaos, or more aptly anarchy, which is what some people on these boards want.

The moment students started drinking, and the instance objects began to get thrown at the Gardai, all credibility diminished. If you belong to a crowd of scum throwing bottles and objects at law enforcement be prepared to take abuse for concealing and supporting such hooliganism. I only wish more arrests were made and the use of water cannon. Scumbags.

Lord TSC

Obviously you did not have to pay rent or bills though. Many students do.

Also, what about students who have work placements? They often have to find accommodation for these placements and sometimes they have to get equipment. They also loose the opportunity for any part time work due to the work placement commitments.

Edited to add that sometimes a course is only on offer in a couple of universities - maybe only in one. There are no options so the only "sacrifice" that could be made in that situation would be not doing that course. So then we are back to people from certain backgrounds being effectively excluded from certain courses.

Fair enough about work placements and I’ve already addressed the idea of travel. But I do think that those people are in the minority. There are plenty of people doing arts degrees and the likes with no such requirements and which are available all over the country, who are coming from areas it would be quite easy to commute from but who choose to stay up there. These are the people who I am aiming my annoyances at. People who choose to rent rather than commute when the later is an option, and then moan about having to deal with the financial aspects of the former. Those are the people who I have no pity for.

It appears as if I may have been rash in posting my original comments, and again, I apologise. I realise that some people are getting annoyed with me, saying I’ve got my head stuck up my arse, and I apologise if I’m coming across as a sanctimonious git here. I fear that I’ve generalised and in the process made myself look back, so if that is the case, I apologise to those individuals who truly felt they had to live up there because either they lived the other side of the country or the course they wanted was only on offer in NUIM.

But again I state, I do not think those people are in the majority. I think there is quite a large contingency of people who live up in Maynooth who could quite easily take buses, trains or cars, but instead opt to live up there to enjoy the “college experience”. People who think that going to lectures and working hard are secondary to living the lifestyle of the student. I really do believe that for a majority of people, they choose to live up there because they think that’s what college should be about. And I’m not pulling these ideas out of my arse (despite how easy that would be, given I apparently live up there :P). These are sentiments which have been echoed back to me by other students from my area.

Teamshadowclan seriously get your head out of your arse. Why should people make sacrifices just because they don't live near a university. What you're saying is that I should have gone to an IT and done something I hated just because it was a commutable distance from my house, at the end of which I probably would probably end up working in a crappy job that i hated or even worse on the dole. Whereas doing a course that I picked after months of thinking about, a course in which I hope to be able to continue my education in and a course that I actually like isn't a good idea because I don't live within commuting distance of this University... Wake up will you!

I'm on the grant and me and a couple of friends worked it out at the start of the year that it costs €3900 alone for rent and €20 allowance for food etc. this doesn't take into account books, stationary, travel, clothing, washing, credit, medicines etc. So there is no way in hell that normal students can survive on the grant. Just because we don't have our mammys to clean, cook, keep us clothed and bring us to the barbers every month gives you no right to say the grant is enough.

Maybe you could give me that grant money you saved for the summer so I can survive as a student or did you spend it on a nice holiday to the states?!?

Oh and why didn't you go to DkIT? I'm sure you could have saved another grand!

No need to get snappy, moggins.

As I already said, I think that’s why alternative systems need to be examined, and my problem comes with people who not only believe they should be allowed live up at a college but that it should be paid for in full by someone else.

People make sacrifices cause in the real world, not everything can be handed up to people on silver platters. It strikes me that we as a people have grown quite selfish and believe no sacrifices should be made at all, and that if we want something, it should be given to us, regardless of economical consequences. Again I say, I am not saying everyone should be forced into their nearest college despite what they would want. I am saying that if something is not financially viable, then you’ve got to examine the options and choose one that is. After that, if you really feel that you want to put yourself in debt and pay it back when a job is available, that option should be there for you. If you are willing to invest in your own future and take that risk to do something you would really like, then fair play. The government should help students like yourself who are passionate and motivated.

My problem, again, comes with those who are not motivated like yourself and who see college as being more about the lifestyle than the education.

5 years ago, three nights before I started in Maynooth, I was watching the Late Late show and there was a student on there who was talking about his grant. He, quite proudly and championed by others around him, stated that he regularly spent his entire grant within a week of it coming in on booze and living up at college. But that was ok, cause he knew his parents would send more money on. THAT is the person I am my grievances at. People who take up college places and waste the grant money on partying, when in truth, there are people out there who probably do struggle to live on the €3,000 a month. People who could care less about wasting money on living up on campus when there’s no need and see University as a social location, not an educational one. The people who turned up to the protests yesterday, drunk and with the intentions of causing trouble, making life difficult on those who genuinely needed to have their voices heard.

For the record, I did use that money to go on holidays last year, and yes it was to America. Here’s the thing though. That’s because I took what I had and I made it work! When I was getting ready to choose my college, I sat down and I looked at not only what I wanted to do but also what would be financially viable in the long run. I’m lucky that I live within commuting distance to Maynooth, and it meant that I was able to create a budget I could live to. Had it not been though, I would not have expected to have more money given to me so I could get what I want. That’s selfish. I would have found a way to get through college because I was motivated and I would have sought other options. Options that should, in my opinion, be offered to those motivated enough to work hard. And because I chose smartly, and because I chose to make certain sacrifices in my budget, I was able to make things work.

This isn’t aimed at anyone in particular here. Just as a more general annoyance I have with the people in the country. Times were good and times were great, and in the process, everyone had enough money to throw around and get whatever they want. But times are bad now, and despite this, everyone still wants to live a life where they get exactly what they want, when they want it. That’s not how Ireland works anymore. That’s horrible to say, I know, but you’ve got to realise sacrifices are needed and cuts are coming. We can blame politicians all we want, but the truth is that the entire people of Ireland need to come together and share the pain if we’re ever going to get back on our feet.

Does anybody care to explain why the likes Éirigí were invited to attend this? I don't think anybody expected them to be peaceful. Those who invited them are responsible for damaging the reputation of Irish students and for endangering students and gardaí alike.

I’d presume that no one “invited” them. But that’s the problem when you advertise big group protests like this. You don’t need to invite anyone. They can just show up and hijack the events. Hence my idea on the previous page of smaller scale protests which could be better controled.

Anyway, this has now hit 1,600 words so I’ll stop. I worry I’ve only managed to take some of the stuff I can see here in the shadowy confines of my own ass and hurled it out in too many directions to make any valid hits. Still, let’s see....

squishykins

I'm not gonna get caught up in this big debate, but I do have one little bone to pick...

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Fair enough about work placements and I’ve already addressed the idea of travel. But I do think that those people are in the minority. There are plenty of people doing arts degrees and the likes with no such requirements and which are available all over the country, who are coming from areas it would be quite easy to commute from but who choose to stay up there. These are the people who I am aiming my annoyances at. People who choose to rent rather than commute when the later is an option, and then moan about having to deal with the financial aspects of the former. Those are the people who I have no pity for.

I'm from Dundalk and it takes me about 2 hours to get to Maynooth on the bus and the same back, depending on traffic. I'm living on-campus, if it hadn't been offered to me I would have commuted though. There was a few days at the start of the year where I did actually have to commute for family reasons, and as a mild insomniac that was crazy. A crazy idea. Yeah I may not be much further north than you, and fair play to you for being able to do it, but not all people are cut out for that sort of thing. And before you say anything, I'm not really a party type of gal, I think I've gone out once since I got here...I just appreciate being able to get back to study and get a proper nights sleep if I'm honest!
Yeah I'm doing arts, and I'm struggling to make ends meet. I haven't even received my grant yet (living on bread is so much FUN =D). But that was my first choice, and regardless of what you think I put a lot of thought into where I would go, sure I could have gone to UCD which is nearest but they didn't offer the combination I wanted, I think UCG did but that would be ridiculous. In contrary to what a lot of people think, many people do arts to do the same thing as me, teach. So all I'm saying is please don't generalize arts students as people who did it because they don't have a clue, when in fact they may have more of a clue than many of the science students I've met so far.

Mr Trade In

That was some video, I also don't go out for these protests,mainly due to it being so many people in the one area at once. Hope the small number who did behave are heard rather than the drunks and morons who acted out when they saw a chance to do so.

mp3guy

amyputz wrote: »

In contrary to what a lot of people think, many people do arts to do the same thing as me, teach. So all I'm saying is please don't generalize arts students as people who did it because they don't have a clue, when in fact they may have more of a clue than many of the science students I've met so far.

It's not really many people though. Arts is the first port of call for undecided people, who just go to university because it's expected of them and it's free (not for long though).

Lord TSC

I'm from Dundalk and it takes me about 2 hours to get to Maynooth on the bus and the same back, depending on traffic. I'm living on-campus, if it hadn't been offered to me I would have commuted though. There was a few days at the start of the year where I did actually have to commute for family reasons, and as a mild insomniac that was crazy. A crazy idea. Yeah I may not be much further north than you, and fair play to you for being able to do it, but not all people are cut out for that sort of thing. And before you say anything, I'm not really a party type of gal, I think I've gone out once since I got here...I just appreciate being able to get back to study and get a proper nights sleep if I'm honest!
Yeah I'm doing arts, and I'm struggling to make ends meet. I haven't even received my grant yet (living on bread is so much FUN =D). But that was my first choice, and regardless of what you think I put a lot of thought into where I would go, sure I could have gone to UCD which is nearest but they didn't offer the combination I wanted, I think UCG did but that would be ridiculous. In contrary to what a lot of people think, many people do arts to do the same thing as me, teach. So all I'm saying is please don't generalize arts students as people who did it because they don't have a clue, when in fact they may have more of a clue than many of the science students I've met so far.

Thats fair enough, and I'll take this opportunity to apologise to you to then as well. And to pre-emp others, I apologise en masse to anyone who genuinely does have to live on campus and who are getting sweeped up in my earlier posts due to the attitudes of others. I do realise some people do have to commute. I accept that. But that's a choice that each individual has to make and live with, and if you made that choice and stick by it, I completly respect that. Fair play to you. People just can't hit back then and start moaning about the financial aspects of that decision when they were the ones who made it though. It's rough but its a personal choice and one the individual has to work with, not the government.

Also, I should point out I did Arts and went on to do my PGDE, meaning I am qualified to teach English, so I relate there as well. I'm not saying "All Arts students are X". Just seemingly a large group, who would probably be too hungover from yesterday to figure out how to reply anyway <_<

Sadly...

It's not really many people though. Arts is the first port of call for undecided people, who just go to university because it's expected of them and it's free (not for long though).

This is true, or at least it's the stereotypical view of the Arts student for a good reason...

The Waltzing Consumer

PrivateEye wrote: »

This is a wonderful letter directed at USI President Gary Redmond from a UCD graduate and current NUI Maynooth student.

I do not like Gary Redmond at all and think he is an opportunistic fianna fail lackey in waiting.

I would laugh and find it very hard to support him or any of his party given their credibility and proven track record.

Saying that, who wrote that letter? Caoimhe Kerins

Google that name and have some fun, most of the time it will come up with a member of Dublin Shell to Sea. Shell to Sea have strong links with Socialists Workers Party, Eirigi and many other front groups used by the Socialists.
Sure maybe there is more than one Caoimhe Kerins? :rolleyes:

In the letter she writes "Let me tell you that in the last 10 years I have been on roughly 15 of such type protests and never once have I seen a protestor start the violence. I have seen Gardai beat and assault people from the ages of 13 to those in their late 70s, all on what were peaceful protests before Gardai arrived in numbers.". It is amazing how SWP, Eirigi, Shell to Sea and all their other front groups seem to never start any trouble ever, but wherever they go, trouble follows.

Unfortunately the majority of students are stuck between FF idiots like USI president Redmond and cuckoo-land violent members of SWP, Eirigi and their fronts. All of them are using the student population as a tool to further their own aims, they are just interested in hijacking student marches and movements and all they are really achieving is creating further apathy in 3rd level institutions.

westdub15

i would like to know how much the SU wasted on 30 coaches to take students to the march when people could have walked ten minutes down the road and take the train?

Kiwi_knock

westdub15 wrote: »

i would like to know how much the SU wasted on 30 coaches to take students to the march when people could have walked ten minutes down the road and take the train?

The students that went paid for the buses. It cost them €3 per person, which is half the price of a train ticket.

smiles302

The email about the march said the buses were considerably discounted by the SU.

westdub15

Buses will leave the Students’ Union from 10.30am and return by 5pm (latest). A return ticket and demonstration tshirt costs just €5.00 after a considerable discount from the Union has been applied

CnaG

http://youtu.be/aPnoAY1wXfI

This is probably the most accurate video depiction I've watched which shows what happened on Merrion Row yesterday. If you're in a rush, fast forward to 6.00 minutes, but I wouldn't recommend it. Better to watch the whole thing and make up your own minds.

@princesscalico - you say you could hear garda warnings clearly, but you were above the protest. I'm pretty sure I could see you actually from where I was standing, (you were one of the ones in the yellow t-shirts leaning out the window somewhere just behind the horses). In the crowd, it was pretty much impossible to hear anything, what with the chanting, and the people with megaphones, and then the yells when the gardai rode their horses into the crowd (0.45).

I didn't see any glass bottles being thrown at the horses and gardai, (eggs yes) though again, you had a better vantage point. I couldn't see why the mounted police decided to push forward first time, and I've been trying to work out why. Just before it happened, the horse next to me was foaming around the mouth, and we nearly got trampled (that's me at 1.07 - the third yellow t-shirt to the right of the white horse on the right, if you follow). Re-watching the footage the horses were clearly getting skittish. I didn't agree with the taunting there - they're just animals and people were spooking them. You'll note that the Gardai were surrounded at this point because people were walking away from the main march, so they were probably spooked too. I suspect that's why they tried to act.

But then they lined up and trotted at the crowd. And despite what you say, people did get trampled. This video doesn't show it, but one of the white horses on the opposite side of the road to me stomped on a woman who was sitting down. Ok, so sitting down in front of a scared horse doesn't seem like a particularly good idea, but she wasn't attacking it, she was sitting down. It was a non-violent action, like *most* of what the crowd did. Yes, there were what could be termed thugs in the crowd (see 2.15-3.00), but there were clearly what could be termed thugs behind the garda lines too (don't miss the girl being dumped unconcious on the ground outside the building. See also 3.30-4.30, and 6 minutes on. Particularly 6.11, when the gardai move into the crowd who were, at that point, chanting "no ifs, no buts, no education cuts". Then, have a look at 8.20 - 9.30 for when the mounted police started charging, literally. I doubt you could see all that, even from your vantage point).

So yes, I wrote up exactly what I saw yesterday. If anyone wants to read it, PM me - it's a bit long to post on here. I'd be interested in seeing all your footage though, Lou, if you are going to post it on youtube or anywhere.

Edit: I give up trying to get the video to show up here, so I've changed it to just a link...

irish_goat

CnaG wrote: »

http://youtu.be/aPnoAY1wXfI

I didn't see any glass bottles being thrown at the horses and gardai, (eggs yes) though again, you had a better vantage point.

50 seconds into your very own video there you see a horse getting sconed by a can and then a bottle is fired about 20 seconds later just before the gardai start their charge. (Nice to see some NUIM students amongst the crowd at this point)

2.27 you see a guy shoving a horse, it's beggars belief as to why he thought that was a good idea. Can't blame the Gardai for getting out of there and for anyone stupid enough to sit down whilst there's a horse charging at you...

The Waltzing Consumer

CnaG wrote: »

http://youtu.be/aPnoAY1wXfI

I didn't see any glass bottles being thrown at the horses and gardai, (eggs yes) though again, you had a better vantage point. I couldn't see why the mounted police decided to push forward first time, and I've been trying to work out why. Just before it happened, the horse next to me was foaming around the mouth, and we nearly got trampled (that's me at 1.07 - the third yellow t-shirt to the right of the white horse on the right, if you follow). Re-watching the footage the horses were clearly getting skittish. I didn't agree with the taunting there - they're just animals and people were spooking them. You'll note that the Gardai were surrounded at this point because people were walking away from the main march, so they were probably spooked too. I suspect that's why they tried to act.

But then they lined up and trotted at the crowd. And despite what you say, people did get trampled. This video doesn't show it, but one of the white horses on the opposite side of the road to me stomped on a woman who was sitting down. Ok, so sitting down in front of a scared horse doesn't seem like a particularly good idea, but she wasn't attacking it, she was sitting down. It was a non-violent action, like *most* of what the crowd did. Yes, there were what could be termed thugs in the crowd (see 2.15-3.00), but there were clearly what could be termed thugs behind the garda lines too (don't miss the girl being dumped unconcious on the ground outside the building. See also 3.30-4.30, and 6 minutes on. Particularly 6.11, when the gardai move into the crowd who were, at that point, chanting "no ifs, no buts, no education cuts". Then, have a look at 8.20 - 9.30 for when the mounted police started charging, literally. I doubt you could see all that, even from your vantage point).

The parts in bold
1) You can clearly see in the video all kinds of stuff being thrown at the mounted Gardai, not just eggs. The only thing I saw for sure in the video is a plastic bottle being thrown at the horse, hitting him on the head. So why are you only saying eggs? It is clearly visibly not just that.

2) You cannot see you "nearly" getting trampled, sorry, just can't see it.

3) The "people getting trampled bit". People in your crowd were throwing stuff at horses. People sat down in front of horses who were alarmed anyway and you wonder why they were moving about? Of course, the student union should have passed out messages informing protesters that horses are NOT people and cannot understand the idea of sit-ins. JESUS! THE STUPIDITY

4) The girl being dumped unconscious. Again, the video clearly shows a civilian and a Gardai both picking her up before the camera moves away. They are not dumping her, they are both aiding her and picking her up. did you not hear the "bring her out" calls from Garda and civilian. Fair play to both of them for helping her, shame on you for lying about it. It is 3:00 in video.

So in summary, your account seems to be way off compared to your own video you posted.

If you are going to get aggressive with Gardai, forgodsake stop whining like little girls when the Gardai don't act like statues and decide to do their jobs and defend themselves!

irish_goat

This is amazing. :pac:

CnaG

1) You can clearly see in the video all kinds of stuff being thrown at the mounted Gardai, not just eggs. The only thing I saw for sure in the video is a plastic bottle being thrown at the horse, hitting him on the head. So why are you only saying eggs? It is clearly visibly not just that.

First of all you need to calm down, trying to insult me and calling me a liar is totally unnecessary. I said eggs because I know for certain that an egg hit one of the horses visors. Also, it was predominantly eggs being thrown before the gardai moved in. There were also; beer cans, fast food wrappers, a clod of dirt and several cardboard signs thrown at various points. Allegedly there were plastic, glass bottles and a brick thrown as well. I didn't see them.

2) You cannot see you "nearly" getting trampled, sorry, just can't see it.
Amazingly enough that's because it isn't in the video, which cuts several times.

3) The "people getting trampled bit". People in your crowd were throwing stuff at horses. People sat down in front of horses who were alarmed anyway and you wonder why they were moving about? Of course, the student union should have passed out messages informing protesters that horses are NOT people and cannot understand the idea of sit-ins. JESUS! THE STUPIDITY

The stupidity? Is that aimed at me? Really? Wow, I've been accused of many things in life but stupidity is not one of them. Anyway, the horses were driven by the gardai into the crowd. Only an eejit would think the horse was responsible for its actions, or think that anyone thinks that. And as I've already said, I didn't agree with taunting the horses. Or, for that matter, the gardai. I do think the gardai's reaction escalated the situation. If they'd just contained instead of charging the crowd, eventually everyone would have gotten hungry and bored and left. Just my opinion.


4) The girl being dumped unconscious. Again, the video clearly shows a civilian and a Gardai both picking her up before the camera moves away. They are not dumping her, they are both aiding her and picking her up. did you not hear the "bring her out" calls from Garda and civilian. Fair play to both of them for helping her, shame on you for lying about it. It is 3:00 in video.

Lying? No. And I'd actually ask you withdraw that accusation. The girl was dumped on the ground by a garda after being carried out of the building. Then her friend ran over to her calling out "Vanessa". She put her in the recovery position, someone shouted out for an ambulance, and it was only then the Garda intervened. He and the civilian carried her away, while a woman nearby shouted to let them through.

Was I whining? How careless of me. I will of course endeavour not to offend you sensibilities in the future.

Miss Lockhart

Teamshadowclan:

I do see what you are saying. However, all of this comes down to whether or not a person's parents are willing to have them live rent and bill free for the duration of college. Lots of parents would not entertain this - especially if they are going to be paying fees on top of that.

Commuting long distances also makes part time work less likely since weeknights are essentially out because you spend the time travelling.

Increased fees, reduced grants etc all assume that people's parents are supposed to support them through college. Some parents can't or won't. Why should certain people be disadvantaged because of that? It would have to be made compulsory to fund 3rd level education for your children if it was deemed that you were in a position to, financially. I doubt anyone is going to go down that road.

The other option is that people would have to work for several years after the LC to save and go back to college. This could be an option - if getting a job with only your LC was easy enough. Except it's not. All that will happen is that people will leave school and go on the dole, with even less prospect of eventually making a career for themself.

So if your parents won't pay, your grant is reduced and you have to pay fees, then essentially you won't be going to college.

smiles302

Graduate tax really should have been on the table.

I do think the gardai's reaction escalated the situation. If they'd just contained instead of charging the crowd, eventually everyone would have gotten hungry and bored and left. Just my opinion.

I keep seeing this. Not directed at you, but I don't think this has been thought through fully. A crowd of 2000 students, all angry after 40/50 being thrown out of the Department building, armed with eggs (for whatever reason), throwing bottles and whatever comes to hand, personally if the Gardai did nothing in that situation I would be furious. It's their job to protect the peace! What about the people working in the city? Or coming and going?

What should the Gardai have done? Just stand there and take it while people throw stuff at them?
A number of students were injured because of the amount of crap thrown, if they let it continue there could easily have been a lot more.

The Waltzing Consumer

CnaG wrote: »

First of all you need to calm down, trying to insult me and calling me a liar is totally unnecessary. I said eggs because I know for certain that an egg hit one of the horses visors. Also, it was predominantly eggs being thrown before the gardai moved in. There were also; beer cans, fast food wrappers, a clod of dirt and several cardboard signs thrown at various points. Allegedly there were plastic, glass bottles and a brick thrown as well. I didn't see them.

I am calm, don't worry
I am not trying to insult you. Well I am glad you are expanding the list of things thrown at Gardai. It paints a more accurate picture.

CnaG wrote: »

Amazingly enough that's because it isn't in the video, which cuts several times.

Well my bad, you referenced 1:07 in the video when you were talking about being nearly trampled, so I put two and two together :P

CnaG wrote: »

The stupidity? Is that aimed at me? Really? Wow, I've been accused of many things in life but stupidity is not one of them. Anyway, the horses were driven by the gardai into the crowd. Only an eejit would think the horse was responsible for its actions, or think that anyone thinks that. And as I've already said, I didn't agree with taunting the horses. Or, for that matter, the gardai. I do think the gardai's reaction escalated the situation. If they'd just contained instead of charging the crowd, eventually everyone would have gotten hungry and bored and left. Just my opinion.

No the stupidity remark is not aimed at you. It is aimed at anyone who wonders why horses might step on you if you sit in front of them amidst crowds of people throwing items at them and having huge noise levels freak them out.
No one is allowed just block public streets because they feel like it. the gardai are given a job to stop that and clear the way. Are you above the law or something? That is like football hooligans giving out about the police moving them on

CnaG wrote: »

4) Lying? No. And I'd actually ask you withdraw that accusation. The girl was dumped on the ground by a garda after being carried out of the building. Then her friend ran over to her calling out "Vanessa". She put her in the recovery position, someone shouted out for an ambulance, and it was only then the Garda intervened. He and the civilian carried her away, while a woman nearby shouted to let them through.

Was I whining? How careless of me. I will of course endeavour not to offend you sensibilities in the future.

You said "don't miss the girl being dumped unconcious on the ground outside the building" in reference to the video. What you say above is completely different and now you are suddenly adding bits. The video clearly just shows a guard and a civilian picking the girl up. So tell me where in the video an unconscious girl is dumped on the ground and I will gladly admit I was wrong and apologise for calling you a liar.

It is not my sensibilities you are offending and the whining thing again is not aimed at you but at people who get in a riot situation and then moan when the guards do there jobs and stop it. I apologise if you took offence at that remark.

Lord TSC

I accept all of that. Truth be told, I think that the whole parenting thing is a symbol of problems in Ireland on a far larger scale, but I won't get into that here and risk derailing the topic even more so.

To keep to the point though, I achknowledge there are parents out there who, for one reason or another, won't pay for their child's education and shake the responsibilities of parenthood. However, I don't believe that this should really factor into the governments concerns at all, as it would be impossible to discern in the long run whether or not parents are not helping their kids for legit reasons, or whether they realise by at least pretending not to care/to be unable to pay, they can get extra benifits. No system could take into account what type of parents someone has., or if they were simply being "smart" with the system.

That's why, and I know I'm harking on about this, there should be the grant system as it is now, and a further system to aid students should they wish to take out a loan and invest into their own futures. An option whereby students are not denied access to the money nessecary to go to a third level institution but are asked that they take responsibility for their choices in the long term. That way, if you really felt you needed the extra help for a proper education (and not just because you feel it's something you're entitled to), you can take out the loan.

philologos

Thanks all for your comment. A clear example of what happens when political alignment affects students issues. I'm glad I wasn't there. There has been too much emphasis, and this includes numerous people on campus about student politics being essentially leftist. The second I heard there was going to be far-left groups involved in this protest I had a feeling that things were going to kick off. There has been an inclination to assume that action on students issues, and action on leftist principles are the same thing.

If theres anything I hope that NUIMSU have learned from all this it is that its job is to represent students, all students irrespective of political stance.

CnaG

"If you are going to get aggressive with Gardai, forgodsake stop whining like little girls when the Gardai don't act like statues and decide to do their jobs and defend themselves"

In context, it does look like it was directed at me. But anyway.

You're actually right re. the garda dumping 'Vanessa' on the ground. Sorry about that. He isn't in the video I posted - I confused it with this one:

http://youtu.be/V8VkkC6PP74

It's at (2.58).

The Waltzing Consumer

CnaG wrote: »

"If you are going to get aggressive with Gardai, forgodsake stop whining like little girls when the Gardai don't act like statues and decide to do their jobs and defend themselves"

In context, it does look like it was directed at me. But anyway.

You're actually right re. the garda dumping 'Vanessa' on the ground. He isn't in the video I posted - I confused it with this one:

http://youtu.be/V8VkkC6PP74

It's at (2.58).

Okay, that video does show a guard bringing the girl and putting her on the ground. I don't really see the issue though? They were getting people out of the finance building. You can see others being brought out too.

CnaG

Does it not concern you at all that anyone (not just a garda) would carry someone unconcious out of a building, drop them onto the footpath and then just leave them there? I haven't heard what happened to her that knocked her out, but really? You actually don't see the issue?

The Waltzing Consumer

CnaG wrote: »

Does it not concern you at all that anyone (not just a garda) would carry someone unconcious out of a building, drop them onto the footpath and then just leave them there? I haven't heard what happened to her that knocked her out, but really? You actually don't see the issue?

There is a lot wrong with what happened in those videos. We don't know the circumstances of that particular incident, so best not presume anything and hope the girl is fine. One person could say "it was the Garda who did it" and another could say "she is scumbag from the SWP who is faking and was illegally protesting in government buildings" Neither would be correct because we don't know.

I don't agree with just blaming one side ie the Gardai. The gardai reacted legally to what was happening. If there was "brutality" then it should be on the videos, seems to have been plenty of videos there, so the id of the Garda involved should be no problem to see. Go to the ombudsman, make a complaint.

CnaG

I never once mentioned 'brutality' and I think if you re-read my first post, you'll find I said there were what you might deem 'thugs' on both sides of that perspex divide.