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New Children's Hospital at Mater site

  • 30-10-2010 2:18am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    There's an opinion piece in today's paper that's useful to get a thread on this rolling here:
    1224282315052_1.jpg

    OPINION: Populist fixation on parking and access at the Mater site misses out on its clinical merits, writes KARL ANDERSON

    THE PUBLIC debates that frequently surround healthcare decisions in this country are important but they can strangle progress.

    In the past they have forced important decisions to be shelved or watered down to the point where the right decision is traded for what is acceptable to those who are most vocal. Think Hanly 2003.

    We must not allow this to happen to one of the most important and exciting healthcare projects this country has ever embarked on: the new national children’s hospital.

    Dr David Vaughan, consultant general and respiratory paediatrician, reminded us last week that the expert who many years ago suggested rationalising cancer services in the midlands needed a Garda escort, such was the level of public objection to his proposal. Ultimately the desire for consensus and compromise prevailed ahead of quality. It took the unfortunate cancer misdiagnosis in the midlands that came to light in 2007 for us to accept that if we want quality we have to compromise convenience and if we want convenience we have to compromise quality. We all can’t have both.

    While the contributors to the current debate on the location for the new children’s hospital are well-intentioned, what is absent since the Eccles Street site was selected in 2006 is a viable alternative. Why? Because there is none.

    The current objections can be distilled down to access and parking. It shouldn’t be so. There were no public debates on the construction of the new Mater hospital, which is now reaching skyward, on the basis of access or parking.

    Nobody has ever said that Temple Street children’s hospital should be moved because of the access or parking problems. Access and parking did not deter the sale in 2007 of a majority share in the Mater Private Hospital on Eccles Street, which valued it at €350 million.

    Access and parking have emerged as the key objections because they are communicable – while the clinical merits of tri-location are difficult to communicate yet are far more important.

    Last week, I spoke to parents from Limerick, Clare and Waterford who attend Temple Street hospital regularly and parking and access issues are simply irrelevant to them in the scheme of things.

    Worryingly, what has emerged through this debate is an Abes (Anywhere But Eccles Street) movement, confirmed by the array of alternatives being put forward.

    Some suggest that the existing three hospitals should remain in place. That would be a tragedy. The facilities at Our Lady’s children’s hospital, Crumlin and Temple Street are desperately outdated and beyond improvement.

    Because paediatric expertise and facilities are spread across three locations, they are not as efficient as they could be and, as a result, children are waiting longer for treatment than they should, given the €200 million-plus invested each year.

    Keeping three hospitals operating independently of each other a few miles apart when there is, for the first time, an unequivocal Government commitment to build one of the best children’s hospitals in the world is impossible to justify.

    Breda O’Brien (The Irish Times, October 23rd) opined that it would make more sense to locate the new hospital on a greenfield site along with a maternity hospital, and build an adult facility later.

    However, she is silent on the fact that Dublin does not need another adult hospital and does not suggest which one should close. It is unrealistic to suggest we could have a tri-located facility (paediatric, adult and maternity) on a greenfield site. It is simply not going to happen in our lifetimes.

    Dr Róisín Healy, a leading figure in the New Children’s Hospital Alliance, does not believe the hospital should be built on Eccles Street but does not have a view on where it should be built. Dr Healy is willing to take her case to Europe to stop the planned hospital being built.

    Dr Finn Breathnach, one of the leading advocates for the new hospital to be built on an alternative site close to the M50, presented a new option on Joe Duffy’s Liveline show last week (October 18th).

    When questioned about the fact that, under his preferred option, there would be no children’s hospital on the north side of Dublin, Dr Breathnach said a solution would be to move Temple Street hospital to the Mater.

    Clearly with this two-hospital approach the status quo could be maintained. It would mean that Crumlin’s position as Ireland’s largest paediatric hospital would be secure; it would remain independent and continue to have the largest budget (€125 million in 2010).

    This suggestion is, however, diametrically at odds with the undisputed finding of the McKinsey report, with which all three children’s hospitals agreed: because of the small size of our population, to provide quality paediatric care we should have only one national children’s hospital (national tertiary and local secondary).

    The new paediatric hospital debate must be about the quality of care that a tri-located hospital (children, adult and maternity) can provide, the calibre of clinical staff it can attract and the ground-breaking cures its combined research facility could unearth. It should not be about access and parking.

    If the need for consensus and compromise is again put ahead of quality, we will repeat the mistakes of the past.

    The unacceptable status quo will remain. Our political leaders will invest their energy in alternative projects that attract less controversy but are equally worthy.

    If the prospect of a new children’s hospital becomes a distant memory smothered in reviews and endless circular debates (which it will because there is no perfect location), those who are most vocal against the current plan will be silent. Those who are actually responsible for providing services will be held accountable.

    Karl Anderson is a former chairman of the New Crumlin Hospital Group (2002-2005) and former adviser to former chief executive of the Health Service Executive Prof Brendan Drumm
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1030/1224282315052.html


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    The last paragraph of the article says it all really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,852 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    I tend to agree with some of the negativity and feel that the current site is a mistake.

    The only benefit I can see to the proposed Mater site for the NCH is that it will be served by Metro North, if that project goes ahead.

    As I understand it, a good NATIONAL children's hospital will have not only enough parking for parents who will driving from all over the country, but on-site accommodation for parents who are staying at/near their children's bedside.

    The proposed NCH at the Mater, due to the fact that will be a new children's hospital shoe-horned into a small space, will have neither. Ergo, the site is inappropriate, and will result in a second rate solution.

    I tend towards the view that the hospital should instead be built on a greenfield site, along the proposed Metro North alignment for easy access from the City, while ideally being close to main road links for those who must drive in. And that it should be built on such a site with all the desirable facilities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,580 ✭✭✭ jd


    From what I can gather, the issue with a green field site is that it would mean it wouldn't be co-located with a major teaching hospital giving access to specialised clinical staff when necessary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭ Tragedy


    Look at the clinicians who oppose the NCH at the Mater. The vast majority(if not all) of Paediatric Consultants are against the Mater site. You had the most respected childrens Doctors in Ireland coming out and uniting against the NCH (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfcwgbgbqley/rss2/ for example).

    Staff, experts and patients don't want the NCH site. The only people who do are HSE 'Experts'.
    The matter is even more complex because Prof Drumm worked in Crumlin until last summer and was a leading advocate for its redevelopment as well as the overall re-organisation of children's hospital services. His €180,000-a-year press adviser, Karl Anderson, was also one of the founders of the parents' group which formed to lobby for the re-building of Crumlin.

    Karl Anderson became a special advisor to Drumm when he became head of the HSE and has so far received €1million since 2005.

    Take the article with a huge grain of salt, it's an 'opinion' piece from Drumm's Press Adviser.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭ Tragedy


    SeanW wrote: »
    The proposed NCH at the Mater, due to the fact that will be a new children's hospital shoe-horned into a small space, will have neither. Ergo, the site is inappropriate, and will result in a second rate solution.

    I tend towards the view that the hospital should instead be built on a greenfield site, along the proposed Metro North alignment for easy access from the City, while ideally being close to main road links for those who must drive in. And that it should be built on such a site with all the desirable facilities.
    SDCC have a huge amount of land available less than 10minutes walk from Tallaght Hospital and 5minutes from the Cookstown Luas stop. Would have better access to M50/N7/N4(i.e. majority of ireland's population) than somewhere along the proposed Metro North.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    Plenty of land available around Blanchardstown Hospital too. Beside M50, M3, rail. NAC closeby for the kids too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭ paddydriver


    jd wrote: »
    From what I can gather, the issue with a green field site is that it would mean it wouldn't be co-located with a major teaching hospital giving access to specialised clinical staff when necessary.

    This is BS political spin... Can you honestly say that if a child is critically ill in Crumlin they have to wait a few hours more whilst the "specialized clinical" staff make their way through traffic from another hospital? - doesn't happen. The whole idea of a dedicated childrens hospital is that you have specialized doctors/clinicians for children.

    The Mater site is a mistake - it was a decision made back in Bertie's day and FF don't have the balls to change it, neither does Harney...

    I do occasional work in that area at the Mater Private and there are times I have driven in circles for half an hour to find parking - and at that I am likely 10-15 mins walk away. It is one of the countries worst traffic/parking black spot's and digging a great big hole in the ground the park the cars is not going to get them in to the area any faster. As I heard someone point out on radio recently too - what happens on the day that someone needs to get their very sick child to the hospital quickly... and its All Ireland day in Croke Park... forget it!

    I agree that the naysayers will have nothing constructive to say if it does now happen, and someone will have to take the wrap for it... well, probably not cause politicians don't do accountability.

    Someone needs to take the ballsy decision and move this to a better site that is more accessible for all - and won't cost €3.00 an hour to park in!

    Paddy


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,580 ✭✭✭ jd


    This is BS political spin... Can you honestly say that if a child is critically ill in Crumlin they have to wait a few hours more whilst the "specialized clinical" staff make their way through traffic from another hospital? - doesn't happen. The whole idea of a dedicated childrens hospital is that you have specialized doctors/clinicians for children.
    Paddy

    I think the argument being made was the level of expertise in different specialities that would be available if located near a large teaching hospital.

    There is an interesting article here - according to this article the McKinsey Report in 2006 identified the following criteria to be used by the HSE in hospital location/design
    1. Space. The new hospital should be able to accommodate all projected needs, including research and education facilities.

    2. Breadth and depth of services. The hospital should be able to provide at least 25 sub-specialities

    Medical – Anaesthetics, Cardiology, Endocrinology, General Medicine, Genetics, Haematology, Immunology, Infectious Diseases, Intensive care, Neonatology, Nephrology, Neurology, Oncology, Opthamology, Pathology,
    Radiology, Respiratory +/- allergology, Rheumatology, Microbiology and clinical chemistry;

    Surgical – Cardiothoracic , ENT , Gastroenterology/GI/ hepatobiliary surgery, General surgery, Neurosurgery,
    Orthopaedic surgery, Transplant surgery, Urology

    In addition, it should be able to provide family space including schools not only for the patients, but also their broithers and sisters. there should be separate single rooms for siblings and for parents.

    3. Co-location. The new hospital would ideally share a site with a teaching hospital capable of providing the sub-specialities listed in paragraph 2. If the hospital is not co-located, there would need to be specific measures to address the separation from adult services.

    4. Access. Good public transport and road links required. Parking for families and staff. Good family accommodation. Outreach programme to other hospitals.

    5. Efficient use of resources

    6. Attracting and retaining staff of high calibre.

    7. Teaching and research

    8. Financial stability

    9. Full project plan and role assessments.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭ michael999999


    my child has to attend crumlin 7-8 times a year at least,we travel from kerry.sometimes its only for check ups but a lot of the time he can be very sick.

    the thoughts of him in the back of a car all the way from kerry and then having to crawl through city traffic is actually quiet worrying.

    the argument that it should be at the mater because it will be linked to the metro and the luas is bull,as no parent will bring a sick child on public transport.

    none of the nurses think the mater is a good idea,especially for parents travelling from the south.can we please listen to the people on the ground who will be asked to work there.

    if its left to fianna fail it will be a disaster of epic porportions.this is all about looking after berties back yard.it will be interesting to see who will get the contract for building it.a lot of questions need to be asked as to why they want it to be built at the mater,and who will benefit from it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭ Tragedy


    jd wrote: »
    I think the argument being made was the level of expertise in different specialities that would be available if located near a large teaching hospital.

    There is an interesting article here - according to this article the McKinsey Report in 2006 identified the following criteria to be used by the HSE in hospital location/design
    The only specialities that Crumlin alone don't have are
    hepatobiliary surgery / Transplant surgery / allergology / Clinical Chemistry off the top of my head.

    The rest they have specialist consultants and CNS's for already.

    It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    Tragedy wrote: »
    The only specialities that Crumlin alone don't have are
    hepatobiliary surgery / Transplant surgery / allergology / Clinical Chemistry off the top of my head.

    The rest they have specialist consultants and CNS's for already.

    It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years.

    Someone in the HSE needed a job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Tragedy wrote: »

    It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years.

    The whole point of having one National Childrens Hospital is that there will be huge savings in operational costs by having one hospital instead of three. That means we will be able to deliver a better service for less money. I hope you are not suggestion that the current situation is good enough. The location of the new hospital is debatable, the need for it is not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    my child has to attend crumlin 7-8 times a year at least,we travel from kerry.sometimes its only for check ups but a lot of the time he can be very sick.

    the thoughts of him in the back of a car all the way from kerry and then having to crawl through city traffic is actually quiet worrying.

    the argument that it should be at the mater because it will be linked to the metro and the luas is bull,as no parent will bring a sick child on public transport.

    none of the nurses think the mater is a good idea,especially for parents travelling from the south.can we please listen to the people on the ground who will be asked to work there.

    if its left to fianna fail it will be a disaster of epic porportions.this is all about looking after berties back yard.it will be interesting to see who will get the contract for building it.a lot of questions need to be asked as to why they want it to be built at the mater,and who will benefit from it.
    The distance from M50 to crumlin and M50 to phibsborough is about the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭ Tragedy


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The whole point of having one National Childrens Hospital is that there will be huge savings in operational costs by having one hospital instead of three. That means we will be able to deliver a better service for less money. I hope you are not suggestion that the current situation is good enough. The location of the new hospital is debatable, the need for it is not.
    Good work on completely taking something out of context. I pointed out that Crumlin hasn't seem to have suffered without co-location with an Adult Teaching Hospital, I don't recall ever saying "Let's keep all three as they are".
    Can you point out where I said or implied that?

    Thanks!

    A couple of more quotes for people:

    one of the experts consulted by the Task Force told us that he was not consulted on location and added that Dublin’s three children’s hospitals together are large enough to stand alone. Prof Alan Craft, past president of the Royal College of Paediatrics, said his “extensive consultation” had been a telephone conversation with a member of the Task Force. He had not seen its report nor was he involved in making the decision about the site
    [quote=BARRY O’DONNELL, Retired Professor of Paediatric
    Surgery RCSI,
    ]Many people outside the paediatric field feel that there is strong
    case for co-location with an adult hospital. It seems logical, but it
    doesn’t work like that. As has been shown again and again the co-location has no tangible advantages for a large paediatric hospital. Those of us who trained in, worked in and visited standalone units all over the world will testify to that. There is, however, a strong case for crossover collaboration in research. But there is no plan for transferring the Children’s Research Centre at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, (founded 1965) which has been so highly successful and is now a minor part of the national fabric, to the Mater site. There is certainly no room for it there.

    ...

    As for building on the six-hectare (15-acre) Crumlin site, the Boston
    Children’s (arguably the worlds number one) was built on the site of the
    old hospital’s car park, (I was twice visiting professor there) while the
    hospital continued working. The builders of Our Lady’s, Crumlin say that
    they could put up a building with all the modern requirements on that site without disturbing the work of the existing hospital. It would cost
    something over €100 million . . . a saving of €600 million. However, it
    looks as though the political Faustian pact will prevail.[/quote]


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Good work on completely taking something out of context. I pointed out that Crumlin hasn't seem to have suffered without co-location with an Adult Teaching Hospital, I don't recall ever saying "Let's keep all three as they are".
    Can you point out where I said or implied that?

    Thanks!

    The line "It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years." seems to suggest you are against co-location. That is my reading of it anyway. If you are so offended by being taken out of context I apologise but you should make it clear what you mean because there is ambiguity in our initial post. You should be more careful when typing posts and do not type as you would speak. A large part of spoken communication is non-verbal, it is also aural (pitch, tone, etc.) and visual (body language). If you simply post what you would say to someone you leave yourself open to misinterpretation, because those of us reading your post do not have these aural and visual aids.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 BrianD


    Wil Crumlin and Temple St. be closed when the new hospital opens? Or is there a phasing out?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭ Tragedy


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The line "It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years." seems to suggest you are against co-location. That is my reading of it anyway. If you are so offended by being taken out of context I apologise but you should make it clear what you mean because there is ambiguity in our initial post. You should be more careful when typing posts and do not type as you would speak. A large part of spoken communication is non-verbal, it is also aural (pitch, tone, etc.) and visual (body language). If you simply post what you would say to someone you leave yourself open to misinterpretation, because those of us reading your post do not have these aural and visual aids.
    I was replying to someone posting(that's why I quoted someone) that the NCH had to be co-located with a teaching hospital, pointing out that Crumlin already had almost every paediatric speciality catered for without Adult Hospital Co-Location

    What is ambiguous about this? What is lacking context?

    My language and post were fine, your interpretation was just off the wall despite you writing a paragraph on how verbal and written communication differ.
    BrianD wrote: »
    Wil Crumlin and Temple St. be closed when the new hospital opens? Or is there a phasing out?
    As far as I know, Temple St+Crumlin will close completely, Tallaght will have an 'Ambulatory Care Centre' open until 10pm at night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Tragedy wrote: »
    I was replying to someone posting(that's why I quoted someone) that the NCH had to be co-located with a teaching hospital, pointing out that Crumlin already had almost every paediatric speciality catered for without Adult Hospital Co-Location

    What is ambiguous about this?

    Well if you had said "It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job without Adult Hospital co-location" it would have been clear what you meant. Simply saying "Crumlins been doing a brilliant job without co-location" could be taken to mean you are opposed to the existing three childrens hospitals being co-located on one site, which is what I took it to mean. So yes, there is ambiguity in our original post. Anyway, I have already said that I apologise for taking you out of context. You are free to have the last word on this if you want but it is off-topic so I am going to leave it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    Very very few Irish hospitals have anything like enough parking. The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.

    ALL hospitals should be exempt from this green/public transport nonsense and given enormous carparks, be they underground or multi-storey. The kind of parking craziness that goes on at James', Cork, Beaumont, Galway and the Mater is an absolute shambles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Very very few Irish hospitals have anything like enough parking. The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.

    ALL hospitals should be exempt from this green/public transport nonsense and given enormous carparks, be they underground or multi-storey. The kind of parking craziness that goes on at James', Cork, Beaumont, Galway and the Mater is an absolute shambles.

    The plan for the NCH at the Mater include 1,000 carparking spaces (which will be free for long term patients), I think that meets your criteria for an "enormous carpark". Locating a hospital beside public transport allows staff to travel to work without their cars, meaning patients are not competing with staff for parking spaces. Also, not having public transport would mean every patient would have to be driven to the hospital which reduces the number of available parking spaces unnecessarily. There will be plenty of children travelling to the hospital for checkups etc. who would be fit to use public transport. I am not saying Mater site is the answer but whatever site is chosen it absolutely must have good public transport links.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.
    .

    Unless your talking about building it right beside the Tallaght M50 interchange there is not much between Phibsborough and Tallaght.

    Some parents can not afford the option of driving it would be nice for them to be able to get to the hospital on decent transport


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ ForiegnNational


    People are missing the point with parking and space requirements...

    I had to spend a lot of time with my son in Crumlin for open heart surgery a couple of years ago. We live in West Cork, not the other end of a Luas or phantom Metro North line. What we needed was the ability to stay with our son throughout this time.

    At Crumlin they have two on-site options (in the room with the child for a single parent) or at the end of the ward for multiple parents. Separately, for families there is both the Ronald McDonald house or the Late Late Show house (which my family used whilst I stayed with my son).

    The earlier quote summed it up brilliantly for a minimum requirements "it should be able to provide family space including schools not only for the patients, but also their broithers and sisters. there should be separate single rooms for siblings and for parents."

    This is a child's hospital, not an adult. You can't simply dump them there and leave. Small children need not only clinical but family help through this experience. Any option that means parents are not within feet of the child throughout this time will be an absolute disaster.

    This is my experience from my time, others may disagree, but how many of them have actually gone through this experience?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    People are missing the point with parking and space requirements...

    I had to spend a lot of time with my son in Crumlin for open heart surgery a couple of years ago. We live in West Cork, not the other end of a Luas or phantom Metro North line. What we needed was the ability to stay with our son throughout this time.

    At Crumlin they have two on-site options (in the room with the child for a single parent) or at the end of the ward for multiple parents. Separately, for families there is both the Ronald McDonald house or the Late Late Show house (which my family used whilst I stayed with my son).

    The earlier quote summed it up brilliantly for a minimum requirements "it should be able to provide family space including schools not only for the patients, but also their broithers and sisters. there should be separate single rooms for siblings and for parents."

    This is a child's hospital, not an adult. You can't simply dump them there and leave. Small children need not only clinical but family help through this experience. Any option that means parents are not within feet of the child throughout this time will be an absolute disaster.

    This is my experience from my time, others may disagree, but how many of them have actually gone through this experience?

    But they are going to have similar facilities in the new children's hospital.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ ForiegnNational


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    But they are going to have similar facilities in the new children's hospital.


    I like to see a little bit more definite response from Ronald McDonald House Charities Ireland before I am convinced this will be available:
    The New National Children’s Hospital is due to open in 2015 at The Mater. We are working closely with the Board of The New Hospital with a view to providing a Ronald McDonald House for families whose children will require hospitalisation for extended periods.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    They definitely will have shared parent-child rooms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ ForiegnNational


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    They definitely will have shared parent-child rooms.

    and for families?

    I am not having a pop at you Cool Mo D, I just don't like the fact that so much is yet undecided that is the issue.

    I am not Anti-Mater (leave it trekky fans), I am just speaking from experience of living through having to spend considerable time with my entire family living in or immediately around the existing hospital facilities.

    Whilst there are so many unresolved issues, it feels more like a Gombeen project than a reality.

    My concern with anything to do with health is that it becomes a political football. Politicians should not interfere with decisions such as the location of a national centre of excellence, they should merely write the cheque and leave it to experts, not base a decision on where they need votes for the next election (which we know is why hospitals are cited around the country).


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    I am not Anti-Mater (leave it trekky fans), I am just speaking from experience of living through having to spend considerable time with my entire family living in or immediately around the existing hospital facilities.

    You'll have to engage in discussion about that as the next generation are posting on this very forum.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Very very few Irish hospitals have anything like enough parking. The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.

    ALL hospitals should be exempt from this green/public transport nonsense and given enormous carparks, be they underground or multi-storey. The kind of parking craziness that goes on at James', Cork, Beaumont, Galway and the Mater is an absolute shambles.
    my child has to attend crumlin 7-8 times a year at least,we travel from kerry.sometimes its only for check ups but a lot of the time he can be very sick.

    the thoughts of him in the back of a car all the way from kerry and then having to crawl through city traffic is actually quiet worrying.

    the argument that it should be at the mater because it will be linked to the metro and the luas is bull,as no parent will bring a sick child on public transport.

    none of the nurses think the mater is a good idea,especially for parents travelling from the south.can we please listen to the people on the ground who will be asked to work there.

    if its left to fianna fail it will be a disaster of epic porportions.this is all about looking after berties back yard.it will be interesting to see who will get the contract for building it.a lot of questions need to be asked as to why they want it to be built at the mater,and who will benefit from it.

    There's still people in Ireland that can't afford cars or can't drive for one reason or another. I don't think those type of comments are fair to parents who try to do their best for their children. Also whatever about city public transport, a good deal of sick people use trains to get to Dublin in the first place -- for them locations like the Matter or Crumlin are ok, but Tallaght adds hugely to their journeys. The same can generally be said for those around Dublin without access to a car at all or even all the time.

    And, with respect, compared to a few hours in a car, I'm not sure if public transport is all that bad. I never had anything that serious at the end of the day, but I remember hating the car but I liked the train. But there's no one solution that suits all.

    In saying all of that, if a ton of car parking isn't planned for the Matter, than that's just wrong. And fully agreed about parking craziness at hospitals -- prices too should be kept low for parents. But it's still worth pointing out that the Matter is only around 4.5km from the M1 or less from the Port Tunnel (toll passes for parents could be arranged with Dublin City Council). That's only about a km less than the distance between Tallaght Hospital and the M50.

    Tragedy wrote: »
    SDCC have a huge amount of land available less than 10minutes walk from Tallaght Hospital and 5minutes from the Cookstown Luas stop. Would have better access to M50/N7/N4(i.e. majority of ireland's population) than somewhere along the proposed Metro North.

    That's not exactly true. A site along the Metro route and close to the M50 around Ballymun would have better access for the majority of the population just on car access alone given its far closer to the M50 than the area around Tallaght.
    mgmt wrote: »
    Plenty of land available around Blanchardstown Hospital too. Beside M50, M3, rail. NAC closeby for the kids too.

    Indeed, all round access wise, Blanchardstown seems like a far better idea than Tallaght.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭ Tragedy


    monument wrote: »
    There's still people in Ireland that can't afford cars or can't drive for one reason or another. I don't think those type of comments are fair to parents who try to do their best for their children. Also whatever about city public transport, a good deal of sick people use trains to get to Dublin in the first place -- for them locations like the Matter or Crumlin are ok, but Tallaght adds hugely to their journeys. The same can generally be said for those around Dublin without access to a car at all or even all the time.

    And, with respect, compared to a few hours in a car, I'm not sure if public transport is all that bad. I never had anything that serious at the end of the day, but I remember hating the car but I liked the train. But there's no one solution that suits all.

    In saying all of that, if a ton of car parking isn't planned for the Matter, than that's just wrong. And fully agreed about parking craziness at hospitals -- prices too should be kept low for parents. But it's still worth pointing out that the Matter is only around 4.5km from the M1 or less from the Port Tunnel (toll passes for parents could be arranged with Dublin City Council). That's only about a km less than the distance between Tallaght Hospital and the M50.
    They've published statistics on how many patients travel to Crumlin via car, can't remember the figure but it was far, far, FAR higher than travel by public transport.
    Having worked there, I honestly can't remember talking to anyone who travelled there by public transport, but I'm aware that's not in any way representative :)



    That's not exactly true. A site along the Metro route and close to the M50 around Ballymun would have better access for the majority of the population just on car access alone given its far closer to the M50 than the area around Tallaght.
    I just had a quick look, and I can't find anywhere along Metro North until you hit the Old Airport which seems to have the space for a major hospital(Santry Demesne and Botanic Gardens are taken, alas!)
    The second part is untrue. The majority of the population of Ireland is in the south west/south east and Dublin. The majority of the population of Dublin outside the City Council is in the South west and South.

    M7, M11 and the majority of South/West Dublin would be closer to Belgard Road/Greenfields site in Tallaght. M4 is almost equidistant, and M3/M1 are far closer to Blanch.

    Go on to google maps, put one destination as Connolly Hospital and just start dragging the second destination around Dublin to get an idea of distances, then do the same with Belgard Road.


    Indeed, all round access wise, Blanchardstown seems like a far better idea than Tallaght.
    I'd settle for Blanch over Mater, if they built a dedicated slip in/out both directions on the M50. The train doesn't really make any impact considering the 4 largest towns/cities after Dublin all terminate in Dublin Heuston(Luas Red Line!).

    Plus, Tallaght already has a childrens hospital(albeit small) and is one of the main teaching hospitals. Does Blanch have either benefit?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭ Orchard Rebel


    The thing that strikes me most about the Mater plan is the lack of proper green space. Whilst Crumlin is hardly an expanse of greenery itself, it does seem daft to me to construct a state of the art children's hospital without access to proper open green space to for sick children to play and recuperate in - rather than what seems little more than a small roof terrace overlooking the oasis of calm that is Eccles Street, which presumably they will have to share with all the other patients.

    Then again, every time I hear or read the words of a senior HSE executive or adviser on the Mater, I get the distinct impression that, to them, the welfare of sick children is a major irritation to their primary concern of running a for-profit business.


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