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New Children's Hospital at Mater site

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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    James's Hospital is almost exactly 500m from the front door of Heuston. That's under a 10 minute walk.

    The NCH site at James's is not exactly 500m away though. Its quite significantly more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    NuMarvel wrote: »

    I thought it was on the St James' Campus? That's what the Dept of Health material says anyway.
    My fault. I misheard the quote, from the Irish Times it says: "Dr Reilly said ultimately a future government may consider building a maternity hospital on the campus. He said the Health Service Executive could consider a site off South Circular Road which could be linked to the children’s hospital site. The 20.5 acre site comprises the disused Player Wills factory, the Bailey Wilson scrap-metal salvage site and the derelict Boys’ Brigade playing fields, which are in the ownership of Dublin City Council."

    Still the ultimate plan is to merge the James's site with the Coombe site.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    How could they "link" that landbank to James? Seeing as they're *behind* the Coombe.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    MYOB wrote: »
    How could they "link" that landbank to James? Seeing as they're *behind* the Coombe.


    A 600 metre tunnel would link the Coombe and St. James. That is what the medics want.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    Medically the Mater is still the best location, but since that wasn't going to happen this is the best of a bad bunch. Not sure why they're calling it James's though; it's really the Coombe (they were talking about the old Player factory as a possibility).


    Why do you consider the Mater to be the best medical option?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Oh dear. St James apparently has worse (public and private) transport links than the Mater site according to a user up thread.

    Apparently being between 1(front entrance) and 3(rialto stop, assuming they'll put in an entrance to NCH here) luas stops from Heuston station is worse than having no luas connection to the Mater site.

    Apparently being between 7 and 10 stops from Busaras and Connolly Station is worse than having no luas connection to the Mater site.

    Apparently having more buses going by St James is worse than having less buses going by the Mater site ( http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=view&searchquery=1995 http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=view&searchquery=795 )

    Apparently being just off a major dual carriageway stretching all the way to the m50 is worse than being in the midst of north inner city Dublin with no particularly easy way to access it.

    Apparently a 1km (10minute) walk isn't walking distance.

    Apparently being 1km from a train station is worse than being 1.6km from a train station.



    I must say, my eyes have certainly been opened. I now know less is more, farther is closer, better transport links are worse and that I should not try to ever walk a kilometre!


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers




    Why do you consider the Mater to be the best medical option?
    Tri-location is far more important than transport links. The Mater has a brand new adult hospital, specialist maternity care and facility to teach. I haven't heard of nor do I know a single doctor that has advocated a site other than the Mater. James's is a close second, but still does not fulfil the necessities of a proper children's hospital. Nor will it for 50 years IMO


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Tri-location is far more important than transport links. The Mater has a brand new adult hospital, specialist maternity care and facility to teach. I haven't heard of nor do I know a single doctor that has advocated a site other than the Mater. James's is a close second, but still does not fulfil the necessities of a proper children's hospital. Nor will it for 50 years IMO
    The facilities for teaching/research in St. James are quite extensive, though the two other points are crucial also and it will require extra work to allow the Coombe hospital to closely interact with St. James, never mind tri-location.

    And you do know of at least one doctor advocating St. James, the man himself Dr. James Reilly:P


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I thought it was on the St James' Campus? That's what the Dept of Health material says anyway.

    From the map on page 62 of the submission it looks like it's all on the site of St James's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    Tri-location is far more important than transport links. The Mater has a brand new adult hospital, specialist maternity care and facility to teach. I haven't heard of nor do I know a single doctor that has advocated a site other than the Mater. James's is a close second, but still does not fulfil the necessities of a proper children's hospital. Nor will it for 50 years IMO


    I'm not an expert on this issue, far from it. But doesnt Trinity College have a significant presence in James's? I thought that would be a education resource so not sure how the Mater is better than James's in that regard???

    I will read through the correspondence and hospital submissions which are on the DOHC website to get a better insight though.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A 600 metre tunnel would link the Coombe and St. James. That is what the medics want.

    Not likely to see that happen. Also wouldn't want to be the person pushing a trolley 600m either.

    I notice the bleat of "children need green space to look at" that was bandied around by many anti-Mater campaigners hasn't turned up again despite this being a smaller site, in a similarly urban area. Funny that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    The facilities for teaching/research in St. James are quite extensive, though the two other points are crucial also and it will require extra work to allow the Coombe hospital to closely interact with St. James, never mind tri-location.

    And you do know of at least one doctor advocating St. James, the man himself Dr. James Reilly:P
    Nothing against GPs but...

    Like I said, I have no problem with James's but the reasons for rejecting the Mater were stupid. Of the non-Mater sites James's is the best but must include integration with the Coombe - underground tunnel or something (:D)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    MYOB wrote: »
    Not likely to see that happen. Also wouldn't want to be the person pushing a trolley 600m either.

    I notice the bleat of "children need green space to look at" that was bandied around by many anti-Mater campaigners hasn't turned up again despite this being a smaller site, in a similarly urban area. Funny that.

    I haven't seen anything official about using the old Player's Will's site at the back of the Coombe. The James' proposal was to have the Children's Hospital built within the existing James' campus. As per the link in antoobrien's post.

    Even if a tunnel was to be built between the NCH and the Coombe, it would still be shorter than any tunnel between the Mater and the Rotunda.

    Land has been identified in that proposal within James' campus for the eventual relocation of the maternity hospital.

    I'm not anti-Mater in any way I'm just not sure where the idea of the tunnel is coming from.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    hardCopy wrote: »
    Even if a tunnel was to be built between the NCH and the Coombe, it would still be shorter than any tunnel between the Mater and the Rotunda.

    The Rotunda was going to (and may still well do, depending on what happens) move to the Mater site - not remain it its existing buildings.

    If a maternity hospital is built on the existing James's campus we're going to have one that's even more crowded than the Mater one was ever going to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,363 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark


    MYOB wrote: »
    If a maternity hospital is built on the existing James's campus we're going to have one that's even more crowded than the Mater one was ever going to be.

    Just as well that's not what's planned then, isn't it?

    Here's what you could have won.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Just as well that's not what's planned then, isn't it?

    That's actually what is suggested in the report. The 500 metres down the road suggestion is just an option.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    MYOB wrote: »
    Not likely to see that happen. Also wouldn't want to be the person pushing a trolley 600m either.

    The medics want it for safety reasons. They dont want newborns in ambulances. they can put a travelator in it so there wont be a 600m trolley push. If done intelligently there could be an underground link between various buildings which would facilitate safe transfer between the buildings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,363 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark


    Suggested - well according to the Irish Times today they'd switched from the original proposal (NCH adjacent to Coombe, new maternity hospital within James's) to the opposite. With an established maternity hospital nearby and lots of land available adjacent to both, there is lots of future flexibility. The biggest mistake of going with the Mater would have been building on a cramped site with no room to expand.

    Here's what you could have won.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Suggested - well according to the Irish Times today they'd switched from the original proposal (NCH adjacent to Coombe, new maternity hospital within James's) to the opposite. With an established maternity hospital nearby and lots of land available adjacent to both, there is lots of future flexibility. The biggest mistake of going with the Mater would have been building on a cramped site with no room to expand.

    The proposal from James' includes the new children's hospital as well as a future maternity hospital within the current campus.

    I haven't read today's times though and there does seem to be a lot of confusion around which James's option has actually been chosen.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Suggested - well according to the Irish Times today they'd switched from the original proposal (NCH adjacent to Coombe, new maternity hospital within James's) to the opposite. With an established maternity hospital nearby and lots of land available adjacent to both, there is lots of future flexibility. The biggest mistake of going with the Mater would have been building on a cramped site with no room to expand.

    The media reporting on this is chronically inaccurate. I suggest you read the report rather than reading the media desperately trying to cover up the ridiculous claims they made before it came out.

    James's is a cramped site with no room to expand - which the report even states. The suggestion of the Player Wills etc lands as "expansion" is about as plausible as someone suggesting that the Mater could expand on Dalymount Park, yet for some reason its being treated as realistic.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    hardCopy wrote: »
    The proposal from James' includes the new children's hospital as well as a future maternity hospital within the current campus.

    I haven't read today's times though and there does seem to be a lot of confusion around which James's option has actually been chosen.

    I think the confusion lies in the Government going with an option that wasn't expressly put forward.

    The St James' proposal was to build the NPH and a maternity hospital on the South Circular Road/Brookfield Road side of the campus. Their proposal was that the NPH would be 9 floors.

    From what I understand, the Government has gone with an amended option of building the NPH in the same part of the campus, but 2 floors less, necessitating a larger footprint in order to keep the same overall floor area of 100,000 square metres.

    Because this then encroaches on the area that would have been used for the maternity hospital in St James' proposal, that part of their proposal has been put aside for now.

    So basically, the Government have taken the James' proposal, changed the height and width of the NPH and will deal with the maternity hospital aspect at another time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I think the confusion lies in the Government going with an option that wasn't expressly put forward.

    The St James' proposal was to build the NPH and a maternity hospital on the South Circular Road/Brookfield Road side of the campus. Their proposal was that the NPH would be 9 floors.

    From what I understand, the Government has gone with an amended option of building the NPH in the same part of the campus, but 2 floors less, necessitating a larger footprint in order to keep the same overall floor area of 100,000 square metres.

    Because this then encroaches on the area that would have been used for the maternity hospital in St James' proposal, that part of their proposal has been put aside for now.

    So basically, the Government have taken the James' proposal, changed the height and width of the NPH and will deal with the maternity hospital aspect at another time.

    Is that the case though? The Dept of Health Press Release still refers to eventually moving the maternity hospital to the James' campus. I heard mention of the Player's site on Newstalk before the announcement but since the announcement was made I haven't seen or heard any mention of it outside this thread.
    Co-location with St James’s and, ultimately, tri-location with a maternity hospital on the St James’s campus, will the Government believes provide the excellence in clinical care that our children deserve.

    http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2012/20121106.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,826 ✭✭✭trellheim




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,826 ✭✭✭trellheim




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    trellheim wrote: »

    The QBC would be really interisting if they could extend it west and allow buses using the campus grounds to bypass the narrower and congested sections of road between James's Street and around Emmet Road.

    May be issues with buses and noise but that could be limited if it was well planned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The front entrance maybe, but the new hospital is going to be built a long way around by the back. Even going by the shortest route, it means going up steps at Cromwellsfort. Great fun with a child in tow.
    The hospital will be served by the Rialto Luas stop as far as the maps and drawings appear to show.
    A 600 metre tunnel would link the Coombe and St. James. That is what the medics want.
    Won't that be nice for the James' street drunks and junkies to drink and take their drugs in when it is cold outside! or were the medics suggesting a tunnel just for themselves? sounds a bit like the proposed escape tunnel from the Dáil to the Dept of Finance.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Won't that be nice for the James' street drunks and junkies to drink and take their drugs in when it is cold outside! or were the medics suggesting a tunnel just for themselves? sounds a bit like the proposed escape tunnel from the Dáil to the Dept of Finance.

    So, the drunks and junkies are going to be allowed into the hospitals to access the tunnel?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    monument wrote: »
    So, the drunks and junkies are going to be allowed into the hospitals to access the tunnel?
    Have you been to that hospital? The drunks and junkies are already in the hospital. Anyone can just walk in off the street unchallenged at any time of the day or night and although the drunks and addicts may not gain access to any tunnel there are enough of them being treated within the hospital for various illnesses and injuries to pose a problem as that would make an excellent place to inject or smoke their heroin or to drink a few cans before returning to their beds on the wards. There are daily incidents of patients being assaulted and having rows with relatives friends dealers etc in the hospital corridors and stairwells and the Luas stop in the grounds is a regular hang-out for the drunks that use the nearby homeless accommodation which is a "wet house" meaning they are allowed in when drunk and in possession of alcohol.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,577 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    So, the drunks and junkies are going to be allowed into the hospitals to access the tunnel?

    You've obviously never been in a Dublin A&E of a weekend evening...

    Whether they'd be able to gain access to any hypothetical tunnel is another question entirely though.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »

    You've obviously never been in a Dublin A&E of a weekend evening...

    Whether they'd be able to gain access to any hypothetical tunnel is another question entirely though.

    I sadly have been to James's A&E late on a Saturday night. I must have scrubbed that - almost sober - experience from my mind (For the record, I was helping a friend of a very drunk person not to freak out -- thankfully have never been in need of A&E on a Saturday night).


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