A 5 Billion Metro subway to Swords!

NewHillel

the bolt wrote: »

i dont know the answer to this,im only throwing it out there.how many use this sligo to cork in comparision to the numbers useing the airport?

Very few - it takes 2.5 hours to go from Limerick to Galway by train! Designed to fail, so that the decision not to extend it can be justified.

jd

donkey balls wrote: »

Now as for a train line from Sligo straight through to cork have they done a cost base analyis for it?.
.

There have been a few
eg
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/6645-0.pdf

Section 5
Claremorris to Collooney: 46.25 miles; capital cost of €197.4m at an average cost of €4.3m per mile
It is clear that this section would be extremely expensive to restore. It accounts for 54% of the restoration costs of the entire line. Expenditure of this order would be very difficult to justify and I have to say that the case for its restoration, as things stand, is weak except on the grounds of balanced regional development.
This section is characterised by low population densities with few towns of reasonable size.

bijapos

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets fúck all except empty fúcking housing estates?

Ghost estate built with no local infrastructure?

Contact your local councillor, phone number available in FG and FF headquarters in Dublin.

Anita Blow

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Where have we heard similar assertions before? :pac: So we've already secured the loan for half of it? And we can't afford proper healthcare? Education? Care of the Elderly? What kind of logic is at work here at all

EIB lends money on the basis of capital investment. It's not the department of transports job to worry about healthcare, education and care for the elderly. It is it's job to improve transport infrastructure, which it is doing. The EIB would not be lending us half a billion if they thought the plan was a bad idea

imitation

Any idea on what the up front cost is to the state is yet ? Its easy to be reactionary when you hear 3 billion for a project butif its a PPP it could be quite a boost for the region in the short term. In the long term the main victims will be the people paying the scandalous ticket prices

Scofflaw

An Bord Pleanala approval notice:

http://www.pleanala.ie/news/na0003/na0003.htm

Not sure what an "Airbone" is, mind you.

RPA's "myths and facts":

http://www.rpa.ie/en/news/Pages/MetroNorthMythsandFacts.aspx

cordially,
Scofflaw

PanchoVilla

Scofflaw wrote: »

Because, not to put too fine a point on it, Dublin is the bit of the country that makes money rather than costing money. I'd love to see a Western Rail Corridor, but I'm not going to pretend it's anything other than a luxury.

Also, again not to put too fine a point on it, the rest of the country was very keen on building those now-empty housing estates. The planning and development was local, after all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. Not to mention the ticket from my town, 25 km from Sligo, is €12.50 while a ticket from Sligo to Dublin is €15. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

Edit: As I said earlier, there's a Dart station not 5 km from Dublin airport's main entrance. Why is there no plan to connect the two with a shuttle service? The infrastructure is already there and this Metro idea is nothing more than a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere in the country.

Scofflaw

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

I agree entirely with that last, but the problem is that the country is too low-density to make public transport pay for itself. Even Dublin is at the lower limits of population density for making public transport viable, and the dispersion patterns in the countryside make it impossible to provide break-even transport. The same issue makes it difficult to source the local work forces and suppliers needed to create business hubs.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Edit: As I said earlier, there's a Dart station not 5 km from Dublin airport's main entrance. Why is there no plan to connect the two with a shuttle service? The infrastructure is already there and this Metro idea is nothing more than a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere in the country.

Because this isn't just a rail link to the airport - it's a metro system for Dublin North that includes the airport on its route.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dar

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. Not to mention the ticket from my town, 25 km from Sligo, is €12.50 while a ticket from Sligo to Dublin is €15. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

Population of Enniskillen: 13k
Population of Swords: 100k

caseyann

ah sure its pretty

Anita Blow

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. Not to mention the ticket from my town, 25 km from Sligo, is €12.50 while a ticket from Sligo to Dublin is €15. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

Edit: As I said earlier, there's a Dart station not 5 km from Dublin airport's main entrance. Why is there no plan to connect the two with a shuttle service? The infrastructure is already there and this Metro idea is nothing more than a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere in the country.

Can a shuttle service cope the 10,000 (Think that's the number) projected users a day that MN could? Can't see a shuttle bus carrying that many. It takes about 20 minutes to get to Portmarnock anyway from the airport and then another 25 minutes to get into town on the train. Metro North would get people in in half that time and with much less effort.

PanchoVilla

Scofflaw wrote: »

I agree entirely with that last, but the problem is that the country is too low-density to make public transport pay for itself. Even Dublin is at the lower limits of population density for making public transport viable, and the dispersion patterns in the countryside make it impossible to provide break-even transport. The same issue makes it difficult to source the local work forces and suppliers needed to create business hubs.

I think this is a difficult issue. There aren't many people in the west because the infrastructure and jobs just don't exist. If the government invested in infrastructure and job creation the people would come. As it is, people in the west are basically left to fend for themselves while people in the east have opportunities presented to them on a silver platter.

So we can either continue spending the nation's wealth on the east coast or realize that people living in the west deserve funding as much as anyone else.

Because this isn't just a rail link to the airport - it's a metro system for Dublin North that includes the airport on its route.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I thought that was what the Dart line in north Dublin was? It's a line that runs from Drogheda all the way to the city center. So why isn't that being improved instead of spending billions on yet another rail system for north Dublin?

whatawaster

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I thought that was what the Dart line in north Dublin was? It's a line that runs from Drogheda all the way to the city center. So why isn't that being improved instead of spending billions on yet another rail system for north Dublin?

The northern DART line serves only the coastal areas of Northern Dublin.

Major inland areas like Swords, Santry, Ballymun, and the airport etc are not served by it

Joey the lips

I think the whole project is a brilliant idea. I think metro north is long overdue and i think infrastructure projects like this rival the hoover dam built in the great depression of the u.s.:D

PanchoVilla

Dar wrote: »

Population of Enniskillen: 13k
Population of Swords: 100k

More infrastructure - more job creation - more people.

No infrastructure - no job creation - stagnation and depopulation.

PanchoVilla

whatawaster wrote: »

The northern DART line serves only the coastal areas of Northern Dublin.

Major inland areas like Swords, Santry, Ballymun, and the airport etc are not served by it

The only town outside of Dublin proper not served directly by the Dart is Swords, which has a regular bus route from Swords to Malahide. There are numerous buses to Santry and Ballymun.

PanchoVilla

Anita Blow wrote: »

Can a shuttle service cope the 10,000 (Think that's the number) projected users a day that MN could? Can't see a shuttle bus carrying that many. It takes about 20 minutes to get to Portmarnock anyway from the airport and then another 25 minutes to get into town on the train. Metro North would get people in in half that time and with much less effort.

A good shuttle service would create more permanent jobs than the metro. A road built specifically for the shuttles could be built from the M1 intersection to Stockhole Lane and down to Old Portmarnock. Upgrading the existing line would cut down on travel time.

jd

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think this is a difficult issue. There aren't many people in the west because the infrastructure and jobs just don't exist.

The investment would have to be targeted. Realistically, this would mean the government would have to ditch the NSS and develop 2/3 counterpoints to Dublin. My view is that certainly Cork and Limerick should be developed into real regional cities - I'm not so sure about Galway.

The obvious city region for development in the northwest of the island is Derry, but thats another story...

southsiderosie

johngalway wrote: »

And Dan O'Brien who is the Irish Times Economics Editor. He was quite against it this morning on the radio, saying basically with the state we're in we shouldn't even be considering it, plus there was no need with the bus services and number of taxi's.

Do any of these people actually have to go to the airport on a regular basis? It's a pain in the ass.

If anyone running the DAA (or the country for that matter) had any sense, they would have not only pushed for a rapid transit connection to the city center, but would have really pushed to make Dublin an international transport hub, especially linking Eastern Europe and the Middle East to the US. Going through Dublin to North America is preferable to other airports because you can clear immigration in Ireland. And coming from the US, Dublin is a relatively cheap jump-off point to the rest of Europe because of Ryanair. Plus, flying through London is generally horrible, as their immigration agents are assholes.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

There's a Dart line about 5 km east of the airport. Anyone with a bit of cop on would just build a road connecting the airport to Portmarnock station and have a shuttle service running and spend those billions elsewhere in the country. Turn on the radio during rush hour and the Headford Rd. is always jam packed. A rail would encourage people to commute and free up the traffic in Galway city. The western line could be used to transport goods as well as people to keep the money coming in.

No. If it is too much hassle to get from the airport to the city on the train, people just won't do it. There needs to be a station in the airport that people can just go to directly.

What would be really cool is if there was an Airport Express (like there is in Hong Kong) that linked the airport directly to Connelly and Heuston, and those stations had high speed rail connections to Cork, Galway, and Belfast. Ireland is a small country, and getting around should not be so difficult.

Scofflaw

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think this is a difficult issue. There aren't many people in the west because the infrastructure and jobs just don't exist. If the government invested in infrastructure and job creation the people would come. As it is, people in the west are basically left to fend for themselves while people in the east have opportunities presented to them on a silver platter.

The population density has never been there in the West, though - not in the history of the State. Yes, it's a bit of a catch-22, but it's not anybody's fault.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

So we can either continue spending the nation's wealth on the east coast or realize that people living in the west deserve funding as much as anyone else.

They receive a good deal more per head than do those in Dublin - these are annual social transfer figures:



The cost of Metro North works out as a couple of hundred per head per year - and then it starts making money rather than costing it.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I thought that was what the Dart line in north Dublin was? It's a line that runs from Drogheda all the way to the city center. So why isn't that being improved instead of spending billions on yet another rail system for north Dublin?

I think that's already been adequately commented on - the DART line doesn't take in major population centres.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maxxie

no need what so ever for this ridiculous metro!! the area is well serviced by public transport as it is!

what about all the tram tracks origionaly laid?? What genius ripped them up??

Scofflaw

maxxie wrote: »

no need what so ever for this ridiculous metro!! the area is well serviced by public transport as it is!

what about all the tram tracks origionaly laid?? What genius ripped them up??

Rather similar geniuses to the people opposing Metro North.

amused,
Scofflaw

thebman

PanchoVilla wrote: »

More infrastructure - more job creation - more people.

No infrastructure - no job creation - stagnation and depopulation.

It kind of ignores that the governments infrastructure policies in the past have been a joke pretty much throughout the boom.

As such this isn't needed for future population expansion but to cope with the numbers trying to travel in the area now.

As someone that used to get public transport in Dublin for two years but comes from a rural background, rural areas have it easy compared to Dublin as there is still the option of driving.

You can't drive in Dublin unless your preparaed to queue for hours in traffic, the buses are late, dirty and packed, even sometimes not bothering to turn up and so we are left with this situation. Irish Rail simply can't handle the numbers and isn't in enough areas in the city. There literally is not standing room on many of the trains that go into Dublin, you just have to get the next one and turn up late if you want to breath when on the train in many cases.

Our infrastructure is a joke and major reason why companies don't want to locate here. We need to at least have it semi-adequate in the capital where the majority of jobs are or we won't retain the jobs we have. It is where most people live, like it or not so if we retain and attract jobs to the capital, we will have the most impact on reducing our unemployment figures for our money and then we can focus on bringing up the more isolated areas infrastructure.

The build it and they will come would be fine if Dublin was at capacity but at the moment, we have massive unemployment everywhere so we should focus on rebuilding the major population centres before we focus on the lower population centres.

the immortals

i think this is a no brainer, massive job creation and also probably the cheapest time ever to build it

Anita Blow

I really just think some people are against it just for the sake of being against it. The EIB wouldn't give us the money if it was a bad idea. It's planning for the future (something which is rarely done here) and creating jobs in the present. We'll be paying a fraction of the 3 billion or so pricetag and the rest will come from Private sector.
It brings Dublin up to speed with other European Capitals in terms of public transport and it is the best solution without putting even more load on our roads which at peak times and weekends are nearly at capacity.
The money could be put into the Dart line but there's only so much improvement you can do on a 2-line coastal train track. So far, cost analysis' shows a two-fold return to the taxpayer. Why in gods name is anyone against it?
Because it's for Dublin?- Fingal is the fastest growing county as far as I remember with the youngest population (Young workers commuting)
Because we're in a recession now?- We won't be in one forever. This is the perfect time to build with little enough initial cost to the taxpayer, hugely lower construction costs and will give an economic boost.

zootroid

Metro North is an essential piece of infrastructure that will pay for itself. The oldest line on the London underground is something like 150 years, and is still in use. If we get that sort of use out of it, it will pay for itself many times over.

The arguements against it don't really stack up. Anyone who regularly uses buses knows that they are frequently late, and have to compete with other road traffic. You also don't know when the next bus will arrive. An underground solves these problems, and I hope that MN will be the start of an actual underground system in Dublin. Would a bus be able to get you from the airport to the city in 20 minutes at rush hour?

People complaining about it saying we don't need a line from Swords to the city forget that it will also serve Drumcondra, DCU, the Mater hospital, and Ballymun, to name but a few. It will create thousands of jobs, and will be built under a public private partnership under a fixed price contract, meaning we won't have to pay for it for a few years, when our current difficulties should be behind us.

Anytime this topic comes up, I'm always amazed at the arguements against it. Do people who are opposed complain as much about the 50 billion bank bailout? The 30 billion that has gone into Anglo that will never be seen again?

aDeener

jock101 wrote: »

The Greens are banging on about building a Metro subway from the Green to Swords/Airport costing an est. 5 Billion and to start in 2012, and to be built by 2016! Who's going to pay for this Fantasy, the EU??? or the imaginery taxpayers who will have shipped out!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

LOL, total Paddywhackery!

do you even know what that means? :rolleyes:

Chuchoter

Sometime back in the 60s they went and closed everything. We had loads of trams everywhere too and they got rid of them for some reason.

Personally I think buses are a better idea than a big fancy metro because they are more flexible, and can fit around areas that might develop in the future.

The whole 'Why aren't rural areas getting any transport' argument is stupid. Its because no-one lives there. Buses with low numbers in Dublin get closed as well, because they are not profitable. If you want to live out in the middle of nowhere you can't expect the same amount of services, nowhere in the world could possibly provide great service locally for all the dispersed, one off, rural houses/towns we have in Ireland. Its just unfeasible. Obviously, Galway an Cork and other big cities should get some degree of transport, not Ennikillen with its 13k population.

PanchoVilla

Scofflaw wrote: »

The population density has never been there in the West, though - not in the history of the State. Yes, it's a bit of a catch-22, but it's not anybody's fault.

What about those people who get paid massive amounts of money to plan the economy and growth of this country? I think it's fair to say it is, in fact, their fault.

They receive a good deal more per head than do those in Dublin - these are annual social transfer figures:

Do those figures include the ridiculous subsidies paid to farmers that don't particularly need them?

The cost of Metro North works out as a couple of hundred per head per year - and then it starts making money rather than costing it.

Costs who money? I'll probably never even use the damn thing! I've used the Luas three times since it's been built. Dublin already has a massive public transportation system and I can't even work in Sligo because there is no bus service for commuters.

I think that's already been adequately commented on - the DART line doesn't take in major population centres.

cordially,
Scofflaw

One major center, Swords. There are plenty of buses to Malahide from Swords.

southsiderosie

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Costs who money? I'll probably never even use the damn thing! I've used the Luas three times since it's been built. Dublin already has a massive public transportation system and I can't even work in Sligo because there is no bus service for commuters.

One major center, Swords. There are plenty of buses to Malahide from Swords.

Dublin does not have a massive public transport system. It has an embarrassingly bad transport system, especially considering that it is the capital city of a Western European country, and is home to one of Europe's few economically successful airlines.

Just because you do not use public transport does not mean that thousands of other people would not. Whenever I got on the Luas, Dart, or took the train from Belfast or Newry into the city during rush hour, it was always packed.

Taking the bus from the airport/Swords area into Dublin city center is a joke. Traffic is often horrible, and god help you if you have to take the #16. :mad: And it's a shame, because the rent is much cheaper around there.

Honestly, have you used public transport in any other major city? Do you really not see how awful Dublin's system is?