A 5 Billion Metro subway to Swords!

jock101

The Greens are banging on about building a Metro subway from the Green to Swords/Airport costing an est. 5 Billion and to start in 2012, and to be built by 2016! Who's going to pay for this Fantasy, the EU??? or the imaginery taxpayers who will have shipped out!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

LOL, total Paddywhackery;)!

thebman

Isn't it a PPP?

Vorsprung

Where's the 5 billion pricetag coming from?

jock101

thebman wrote: »

Isn't it a PPP?

Oh yeah another toll road style deal, if the public dont use the service to a profit, the taxpayer pays the difference.

Why can't a shuttle bus service use the other waste of taxpayers money, the port tunnel. Cheap existing option!

murphaph

thebman wrote: »

Isn't it a PPP?

Yes.

We should be friggin delighted if any PPP consortium takes it on, given how sh!t our economy is. If anyone bites any stumps up the up front cost we should take their arm as it will at least provide a load of jobs for a few bleak years and will make a super (and needed) addition to Dublin's (crap) public transport network.

A state not heavily in debt would be advised to be very wary of PPPs but in our case we'll be lucky if anyone is seriously interested.

jock101

murphaph wrote: »

Yes.

We should be friggin delighted if any PPP consortium takes it on, given how sh!t our economy is. If anyone bites any stumps up the up front cost we should take their arm as it will at least provide a load of jobs for a few bleak years and will make a super (and needed) addition to Dublin's (crap) public transport network.

A state not heavily in debt would be advised to be very wary of PPPs but in our case we'll be lucky if anyone is seriously interested.

Yeah your right, thousands of jobs for foreign labour, like the housing boom. But sure it will pay in tax for the dole for Paddy and Mary. A superduper subway to get out quicker to Terminal 2!;):rolleyes:

jock101

Vorsprung wrote: »

Where's the 5 billion pricetag coming from?

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/dublins-planned-metro-north-line-to-cost-more-than-5bn-1053110.html:rolleyes:

now more like 8 Billion
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/1028/1224282143393.html

amacachi

It's nowhere near 5 billion, it'll be PPP, it's to the Airport as well as Swords and will link right into the city centre. Though Kevin Myers and some shopkeepers are against it so it's a bad idea.

My only objection about it is that it won't be happening any time soon and all the planning etc. is most likely a way to continue filling the pockets of politicians and those in the legal professions.

efb

Wont it create construction jobs initially (help our large unemployed construction industry) and further jobs once its complete? drivers, inspectors, security, kiosk agents etc...

the 5 billion wont be going into a black hole!

johngalway

amacachi wrote: »

Though Kevin Myers and some shopkeepers are against it so it's a bad idea.

And Dan O'Brien who is the Irish Times Economics Editor. He was quite against it this morning on the radio, saying basically with the state we're in we shouldn't even be considering it, plus there was no need with the bus services and number of taxi's.

Lenny Lovett

amacachi wrote: »

It's nowhere near 5 billion,

Yeah, more like 8 billion. Anyway even if it's 1 billion it'll be too much. PPPs are a farce because the private side are way more switched on and will stitch up the Govt in such a way that the private investors can't lose. Ref: East Link, M50 etc etc.

This is a monument to the stupidity, averice and ignorance of this Government especially the Greens. Another white elephant. They're peddling us this bullsh1t that "We must cut back". Cut OAPs and Welfare. We've no money... So, hey, let's throw a few billion into a big hole in the ground tunnel. Unbelievable really. So I've no doubt it will go ahead.:mad:

donkey balls

jock101 wrote: »

Oh yeah another toll road style deal, if the public dont use the service to a profit, the taxpayer pays the difference.

Why can't a shuttle bus service use the other waste of taxpayers money, the port tunnel. Cheap existing option!

And yet once again Minister Dempsey hides behind his favorite saying that he can not give out to much info due to the commercial nature of the business.:rolleyes:

Anita Blow

jock101 wrote: »

now more like 8 Billion
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/1028/1224282143393.html

Your evidence for the metro costing 8 billion, is a letter from the Project Director to the editor saying is won't cost 8 billion?
The cost has been revised down from 5 billion to 3 billion because of reduced construction costs and the cost-benefit ratio is like 2 euro out of it for every 1 euro we put in. We already have a loan secured from the EIB for part of the cost. There is literally no downside to this.

Lenny Lovett

Anita Blow wrote: »

There is literally no downside to this.

Where have we heard similar assertions before? :pac: So we've already secured the loan for half of it? And we can't afford proper healthcare? Education? Care of the Elderly? What kind of logic is at work here at all

dan_d

I'm with Anita Blow on this.

There is no down side. It's called future investment. You know that thing that we're so incredibly rubbish at in this country? For once, we're doing something right with this. It's long, long, long overdue, it's badly needed, and if it isn't built it will be a complete travesty.

One of the first things the UK did on discovering they were in a recession was start heavily investing in their infrastructure. Crossrail redesigned a number of stations that were to be developed in order to save money (and their cost savings were quite high as a result), but they are still being built. We need to adopt the same approach. Public transport in this country, across the board, is at substandard levels. We need a good transport system, it's one of the basic requirements of a modern economy. We managed to completely blow any chance we had during the last 10 years by investing the excess money we had anywhere except where it was needed - like developing a whole rail system around Dublin, improving the bus network, building more trams, etc, etc. We pulled up train tracks during the last recession to save money, then spent hundreds of millions building (essentially rebuilding) a Luas line along one of those lines during the boom. Just one. We have to learn from this kind of stupid behaviour.

If anything, we should adopt the British approach and redesign stations and stops on the route to save money, but under no circumstances should this project be shelved.

the bolt

johngalway wrote: »

And Dan O'Brien who is the Irish Times Economics Editor. He was quite against it this morning on the radio, saying basically with the state we're in we shouldn't even be considering it, plus there was no need with the bus services and number of taxi's.

maybe if he was like me coming to the end on a job very shortly (t2) then he might be of a different mindset.

PanchoVilla

What about a Sligo-Castlebar-Galway-Limerick-Cork railway for the west? Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets nothing but empty housing estates?

the bolt

PanchoVilla wrote: »

What about a Sligo-Castlebar-Galway-Limerick-Cork railway for the west? Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets fúck all except empty fúcking housing estates?

i dont know the answer to this,im only throwing it out there.how many use this sligo to cork in comparision to the numbers useing the airport?

Dirk Gently

The figures aren't known (public knowledge) but I suspect the 8 billion figure is pulled out of someones arse tbh. Was this not suppose to only start using public money after the construction phase, years down the line and have conservative estimated returns of at least double the public cost? I wouldn't jump on the anti metro bandwagon just yet until a proper costed plan is made public.

Any debate on the metro is just pure fantasy until final figures are produced. I'd love to see real costings because depending who you listen to its either a win win situation or a white elephant. The people who say its a white elephant though, what are they basing their opinion on except a basic government + spend = bad gut feeling. What will it cost the taxpayer and what will be the benefit. Until you answer that there's no point debating the issue.

bijapos

If you want an informed discussion on Metro North I would suggest the Infrastructure forum here on boards.ie. There are a number of threads on Metro North there, most of which is highly informed discussion by planners, transport professionals and the like. there are both threads and posts pro and contra Metro North and it makes for good reading.

The OP and a couple of other posters here seem to be intent on dragging this down to the slagging level of AH.

Metro North is badly needed, there is no doubt about that, as indeed are other metro projects in Dublin as well as an expanded Luas/BRT network, both in Dublin and other urban centres.

Of course the main problem is that we will probably never be able to build it as cheap as we can right now, but that we will have to borrow any of the money that this country will have to put up for it, and therein lies the discussion: is it worth borrowing the money, plus interest, against the jobs that it will create during construction. Is it worth doing it as a PPP or a state only project?

The problem is that this discussion was started as Green Party bashing thread and will probably continue to be so. The GP are one of the promoters of the project but a lot of ordinary people from all walks of life and all political persuasions are also in favour of it.

donkey balls

PanchoVilla wrote: »

What about a Sligo-Castlebar-Galway-Limerick-Cork railway for the west? Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets fúck all except empty fúcking housing estates?

As someone involved in the transport industry i can say that the road network over in the west is a disgrace,Now as for a train line from Sligo straight through to cork have they done a cost base analyis for it?.
And not wanting to stirr up the usual Dublin gets everything and the rest of the country gets fook all,Would the western sea board have enough people(population) using the service to make it work.

PanchoVilla

the bolt wrote: »

i dont know the answer to this,im only throwing it out there.how many use this sligo to cork in comparision to the numbers useing the airport?

There's a Dart line about 5 km east of the airport. Anyone with a bit of cop on would just build a road connecting the airport to Portmarnock station and have a shuttle service running and spend those billions elsewhere in the country. Turn on the radio during rush hour and the Headford Rd. is always jam packed. A rail would encourage people to commute and free up the traffic in Galway city. The western line could be used to transport goods as well as people to keep the money coming in.

johngalway

the bolt wrote: »

maybe if he was like me coming to the end on a job very shortly (t2) then he might be of a different mindset.

Or like me, he won't see a penny from it, and doesn't want to pay for it.

PanchoVilla

donkey balls wrote: »

As someone involved in the transport industry i can say that the road network over in the west is a disgrace,Now as for a train line from Sligo straight through to cork have they done a cost base analyis for it?.
And not wanting to stirr up the usual Dublin gets everything and the rest of the country gets fook all,Would the western sea board have enough people(population) using the service to make it work.

The west has huge tourism potential and the rail would be a great way to bring employment west of the Shannon. It would also cut down on the number of cars on the road. Loads of people travel the N17 of a daily basis and I think if the rail was actually affordable it would be successful.

the bolt

johngalway wrote: »

Or like me, he won't see a penny from it, and doesn't want to pay for it.

i dont know about you but all my wages dont go into the bank or under the. pillow ,it gets spread about like most peoples.there are plenty spent in this country that i dont see any benifit from but thats just the way life is.i dont want to pay for them but i do cause it for the greater good likeways this job

Yag reuoY

The only people who could support this proposal are from Dublin! :mad:

Haven't you done enough damage to the country, you disgusting people!?

deelite

Just a quick question as I cant be bothered to check a map - on this "new line" is the proposed new childrens hospital on the Mater site been mentioned?

whatawaster

Building things like Metro is a way to grow the economy, put people in work, and make the city accessible to 100,000 people in Swords who, at the moment, are faced with a difficult commute.
By linking with the Luas and DART at Stephen's Green it makes the Airport, Mater Hospital and Dublin City University accessible from anywhere in Dublin pretty much.

Scofflaw

PanchoVilla wrote: »

What about a Sligo-Castlebar-Galway-Limerick-Cork railway for the west? Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets fúck all except empty fúcking housing estates?

Because, not to put too fine a point on it, Dublin is the bit of the country that makes money rather than costing money. I'd love to see a Western Rail Corridor, but I'm not going to pretend it's anything other than a luxury.

Also, again not to put too fine a point on it, the rest of the country was very keen on building those now-empty housing estates. The planning and development was local, after all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Yag reuoY wrote: »

The only people who could support this proposal are from Dublin! :mad:

Haven't you done enough damage to the country, you disgusting people!?

Go away for a week, and think about what a constructive contribution to debate might look like. I'll assist you with a clue - it looks nothing like any of the posts you've made so far in this forum.

On your return, either (a) your posts have improved to at least a minimal level of quality, or (b) you get permabanned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

jd

PanchoVilla wrote: »

What about a Sligo-Castlebar-Galway-Limerick-Cork railway for the west? Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets fúck all except empty fúcking housing estates?

You are forgetting about the National road upgrades. N6,N7,N8,N9 upgrades benefit "the rest of the countryside" more so than Dublin. N18 Limerick to Gort will be soon fully open, with construction of Gort-Tuam scheduled to start in new year. The WRC (north of Tuam at least) would be lightly utilised and slow.

NewHillel

the bolt wrote: »

i dont know the answer to this,im only throwing it out there.how many use this sligo to cork in comparision to the numbers useing the airport?

Very few - it takes 2.5 hours to go from Limerick to Galway by train! Designed to fail, so that the decision not to extend it can be justified.

jd

donkey balls wrote: »

Now as for a train line from Sligo straight through to cork have they done a cost base analyis for it?.
.

There have been a few
eg
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/6645-0.pdf

Section 5
Claremorris to Collooney: 46.25 miles; capital cost of €197.4m at an average cost of €4.3m per mile
It is clear that this section would be extremely expensive to restore. It accounts for 54% of the restoration costs of the entire line. Expenditure of this order would be very difficult to justify and I have to say that the case for its restoration, as things stand, is weak except on the grounds of balanced regional development.
This section is characterised by low population densities with few towns of reasonable size.

bijapos

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Why is Dublin constantly getting billions to spend on infrastructure while the rest of the country gets fúck all except empty fúcking housing estates?

Ghost estate built with no local infrastructure?

Contact your local councillor, phone number available in FG and FF headquarters in Dublin.

Anita Blow

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Where have we heard similar assertions before? :pac: So we've already secured the loan for half of it? And we can't afford proper healthcare? Education? Care of the Elderly? What kind of logic is at work here at all

EIB lends money on the basis of capital investment. It's not the department of transports job to worry about healthcare, education and care for the elderly. It is it's job to improve transport infrastructure, which it is doing. The EIB would not be lending us half a billion if they thought the plan was a bad idea

imitation

Any idea on what the up front cost is to the state is yet ? Its easy to be reactionary when you hear 3 billion for a project butif its a PPP it could be quite a boost for the region in the short term. In the long term the main victims will be the people paying the scandalous ticket prices

Scofflaw

An Bord Pleanala approval notice:

http://www.pleanala.ie/news/na0003/na0003.htm

Not sure what an "Airbone" is, mind you.

RPA's "myths and facts":

http://www.rpa.ie/en/news/Pages/MetroNorthMythsandFacts.aspx

cordially,
Scofflaw

PanchoVilla

Scofflaw wrote: »

Because, not to put too fine a point on it, Dublin is the bit of the country that makes money rather than costing money. I'd love to see a Western Rail Corridor, but I'm not going to pretend it's anything other than a luxury.

Also, again not to put too fine a point on it, the rest of the country was very keen on building those now-empty housing estates. The planning and development was local, after all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. Not to mention the ticket from my town, 25 km from Sligo, is €12.50 while a ticket from Sligo to Dublin is €15. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

Edit: As I said earlier, there's a Dart station not 5 km from Dublin airport's main entrance. Why is there no plan to connect the two with a shuttle service? The infrastructure is already there and this Metro idea is nothing more than a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere in the country.

Scofflaw

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

I agree entirely with that last, but the problem is that the country is too low-density to make public transport pay for itself. Even Dublin is at the lower limits of population density for making public transport viable, and the dispersion patterns in the countryside make it impossible to provide break-even transport. The same issue makes it difficult to source the local work forces and suppliers needed to create business hubs.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Edit: As I said earlier, there's a Dart station not 5 km from Dublin airport's main entrance. Why is there no plan to connect the two with a shuttle service? The infrastructure is already there and this Metro idea is nothing more than a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere in the country.

Because this isn't just a rail link to the airport - it's a metro system for Dublin North that includes the airport on its route.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dar

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. Not to mention the ticket from my town, 25 km from Sligo, is €12.50 while a ticket from Sligo to Dublin is €15. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

Population of Enniskillen: 13k
Population of Swords: 100k

caseyann

ah sure its pretty

Anita Blow

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The WRC would bring much needed employment possibilities to the west. Dublin makes all the money because Dublin gets all the money for infrastructure and investment. I could get a bus from the city center to Swords at 3 a.m. when I lived in Dublin. The last bus from Sligo to Enniskillen leaves Sligo at 3:45 p.m., the first bus in my town to Sligo is 10:25. Not to mention the ticket from my town, 25 km from Sligo, is €12.50 while a ticket from Sligo to Dublin is €15. That's just not acceptable. Public transportation outside of Dublin is a bad joke.

Edit: As I said earlier, there's a Dart station not 5 km from Dublin airport's main entrance. Why is there no plan to connect the two with a shuttle service? The infrastructure is already there and this Metro idea is nothing more than a waste of money that should be spent elsewhere in the country.

Can a shuttle service cope the 10,000 (Think that's the number) projected users a day that MN could? Can't see a shuttle bus carrying that many. It takes about 20 minutes to get to Portmarnock anyway from the airport and then another 25 minutes to get into town on the train. Metro North would get people in in half that time and with much less effort.

PanchoVilla

Scofflaw wrote: »

I agree entirely with that last, but the problem is that the country is too low-density to make public transport pay for itself. Even Dublin is at the lower limits of population density for making public transport viable, and the dispersion patterns in the countryside make it impossible to provide break-even transport. The same issue makes it difficult to source the local work forces and suppliers needed to create business hubs.

I think this is a difficult issue. There aren't many people in the west because the infrastructure and jobs just don't exist. If the government invested in infrastructure and job creation the people would come. As it is, people in the west are basically left to fend for themselves while people in the east have opportunities presented to them on a silver platter.

So we can either continue spending the nation's wealth on the east coast or realize that people living in the west deserve funding as much as anyone else.

Because this isn't just a rail link to the airport - it's a metro system for Dublin North that includes the airport on its route.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I thought that was what the Dart line in north Dublin was? It's a line that runs from Drogheda all the way to the city center. So why isn't that being improved instead of spending billions on yet another rail system for north Dublin?

whatawaster

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I thought that was what the Dart line in north Dublin was? It's a line that runs from Drogheda all the way to the city center. So why isn't that being improved instead of spending billions on yet another rail system for north Dublin?

The northern DART line serves only the coastal areas of Northern Dublin.

Major inland areas like Swords, Santry, Ballymun, and the airport etc are not served by it

Joey the lips

I think the whole project is a brilliant idea. I think metro north is long overdue and i think infrastructure projects like this rival the hoover dam built in the great depression of the u.s.:D

PanchoVilla

Dar wrote: »

Population of Enniskillen: 13k
Population of Swords: 100k

More infrastructure - more job creation - more people.

No infrastructure - no job creation - stagnation and depopulation.

PanchoVilla

whatawaster wrote: »

The northern DART line serves only the coastal areas of Northern Dublin.

Major inland areas like Swords, Santry, Ballymun, and the airport etc are not served by it

The only town outside of Dublin proper not served directly by the Dart is Swords, which has a regular bus route from Swords to Malahide. There are numerous buses to Santry and Ballymun.

PanchoVilla

Anita Blow wrote: »

Can a shuttle service cope the 10,000 (Think that's the number) projected users a day that MN could? Can't see a shuttle bus carrying that many. It takes about 20 minutes to get to Portmarnock anyway from the airport and then another 25 minutes to get into town on the train. Metro North would get people in in half that time and with much less effort.

A good shuttle service would create more permanent jobs than the metro. A road built specifically for the shuttles could be built from the M1 intersection to Stockhole Lane and down to Old Portmarnock. Upgrading the existing line would cut down on travel time.

jd

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think this is a difficult issue. There aren't many people in the west because the infrastructure and jobs just don't exist.

The investment would have to be targeted. Realistically, this would mean the government would have to ditch the NSS and develop 2/3 counterpoints to Dublin. My view is that certainly Cork and Limerick should be developed into real regional cities - I'm not so sure about Galway.

The obvious city region for development in the northwest of the island is Derry, but thats another story...

southsiderosie

johngalway wrote: »

And Dan O'Brien who is the Irish Times Economics Editor. He was quite against it this morning on the radio, saying basically with the state we're in we shouldn't even be considering it, plus there was no need with the bus services and number of taxi's.

Do any of these people actually have to go to the airport on a regular basis? It's a pain in the ass.

If anyone running the DAA (or the country for that matter) had any sense, they would have not only pushed for a rapid transit connection to the city center, but would have really pushed to make Dublin an international transport hub, especially linking Eastern Europe and the Middle East to the US. Going through Dublin to North America is preferable to other airports because you can clear immigration in Ireland. And coming from the US, Dublin is a relatively cheap jump-off point to the rest of Europe because of Ryanair. Plus, flying through London is generally horrible, as their immigration agents are assholes.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

There's a Dart line about 5 km east of the airport. Anyone with a bit of cop on would just build a road connecting the airport to Portmarnock station and have a shuttle service running and spend those billions elsewhere in the country. Turn on the radio during rush hour and the Headford Rd. is always jam packed. A rail would encourage people to commute and free up the traffic in Galway city. The western line could be used to transport goods as well as people to keep the money coming in.

No. If it is too much hassle to get from the airport to the city on the train, people just won't do it. There needs to be a station in the airport that people can just go to directly.

What would be really cool is if there was an Airport Express (like there is in Hong Kong) that linked the airport directly to Connelly and Heuston, and those stations had high speed rail connections to Cork, Galway, and Belfast. Ireland is a small country, and getting around should not be so difficult.

Scofflaw

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I think this is a difficult issue. There aren't many people in the west because the infrastructure and jobs just don't exist. If the government invested in infrastructure and job creation the people would come. As it is, people in the west are basically left to fend for themselves while people in the east have opportunities presented to them on a silver platter.

The population density has never been there in the West, though - not in the history of the State. Yes, it's a bit of a catch-22, but it's not anybody's fault.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

So we can either continue spending the nation's wealth on the east coast or realize that people living in the west deserve funding as much as anyone else.

They receive a good deal more per head than do those in Dublin - these are annual social transfer figures:



The cost of Metro North works out as a couple of hundred per head per year - and then it starts making money rather than costing it.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I thought that was what the Dart line in north Dublin was? It's a line that runs from Drogheda all the way to the city center. So why isn't that being improved instead of spending billions on yet another rail system for north Dublin?

I think that's already been adequately commented on - the DART line doesn't take in major population centres.

cordially,
Scofflaw