1216 packs of abortion pills seized in 2009

FoxT

Abortion is horrid. I really mean that, from the bottom of my heart.



Nevertheless there will always be a demand for it, and what we are doing today in Ireland ( no attempt to minimise the demand for it, and export 000's of abortions every year) is worse than abortion itself - it is morally bankrupt.

There will always be women without means who will desperately want to abort, and will risk their lives/health to do so. Catching one shipment of uncontrolled drugs wont deal with this issue.

- There needs to be a mandatory, non-denominational course to Leaving Certificate level covering
- Relationships
- Sexuality
- Parenting
- Health
This could be for a reasonable cost if , say, Irish was not mandatory at LC level. I know I would prefer my children to attend this, than learn Irish.


- Contraceptives & the MAP need to be freely (and safely in the case of the MAP or the pill ) available to all. A 30 year old woman in D4 should not have easier access than a 17-year old girl in Ballydehob.

- Abortion should be permitted provided that it is early in the term. Women contemplating it should have access to non-judgemental & supportive counselling services, and fostering or adoption should be promoted more. There should also be a 3rd option - where the baby could be adopted but the 'natural' mother would have visiting rights - ie 'giving up for adoption', but without the 'giving up'.

If all of the above were implemented, I am convinced that the demand for abortion would plummet, and I would rather see this happen ( ie say 500-1000 abortions a year in Ireland) than exporting 6000 to 7000 a year.

The papists wont stand for it though, despite their claims that abortion is a great social evil - in fact they would campaign against all of the above, tooth & nail.

- FoxT

Millicent

FoxT wrote: »

Abortion is horrid. I really mean that, from the bottom of my heart.



Nevertheless there will always be a demand for it, and what we are doing today in Ireland ( no attempt to minimise the demand for it, and export 000's of abortions every year) is worse than abortion itself - it is morally bankrupt.

There will always be women without means who will desperately want to abort, and will risk their lives/health to do so. Catching one shipment of uncontrolled drugs wont deal with this issue.

- There needs to be a mandatory, non-denominational course to Leaving Certificate level covering
- Relationships
- Sexuality
- Parenting
- Health
This could be for a reasonable cost if , say, Irish was not mandatory at LC level. I know I would prefer my children to attend this, than learn Irish.


- Contraceptives & the MAP need to be freely (and safely in the case of the MAP or the pill ) available to all. A 30 year old woman in D4 should not have easier access than a 17-year old girl in Ballydehob.

- Abortion should be permitted provided that it is early in the term. Mothers need access to non-judgemental & supportive counselling services.

If all of the above were implemented, I am convinced that the demand for abortion would plummet, and I would rather see this happen ( ie say 500-1000 abortions a year in Ireland) than exporting 6000 to 7000 a year.

The papists wont stand for it though, despite their claims that abortion is a great social evil - in fact they would campaign against all of the above, tooth & nail.

- FoxT

Fox T, just had to comment to say your ability to separate your personal feelings about abortion from the debate is very refreshing.

philologos

OK, but if the State is to argue this from the perspective of the right to life it becomes considerably more difficult to just say "Lets legalise abortion".

By the by, in comparison to other countries our abortion rate is quite low. For example I think it's something like 4,000 annually, if we are to compare this with Wales which has a similar population it is 8,000 there.

Sulmac

You're completely right, FoxT - this is a societal issue, not just a personal one.

Millicent

Jakkass wrote: »

OK, but if the State is to argue this from the perspective of the right to life it becomes considerably more difficult to just say "Lets legalise abortion".

By the by, in comparison to other countries our abortion rate is quite low. For example I think it's something like 4,000 annually, if we are to compare this with Wales which has a similar population it is 8,000 there.

Might that be because abortion is legal in Wales?

Father Damo

crayolastereo wrote: »

Because all teenage girls are able to hop off to the north for a few days without the parents noticing. .

Yes. Because if abortion was legal it would be carried out on 14 year olds without parental consent.

Jesus ****ing Christ :rolleyes:

oompaloompa

FoxT I agree, abortion is horrid, however sometimes it is the best decision for the mother and child.

I really believe if abortion was to be legalised in Ireland, it would very quickly slip into the rip off Ireland culture, forcing women to take a trip to the UK instead for financial reasons.

Instead of this, I would like to see abortion legalised, but not under the already crumbling HSE. IMO it would need to be an independent body, which ensured that each woman is given the best standard of care before, during and after the procedure at a reasonable cost which was accessible, but not so low that it became a routine procedure for some.

Too many women go to the UK for abortion, and subsequently present to an Irish hospital with complications. Treatment of any issues would be simpler if aftercare was completed by the same body who carried out the initial procedure.

If Ireland stepped out of holy Catholic mode, they would agree to the legalisation of abortion and accept that since it is sometimes a necessary evil, we should protect the women of Ireland as best we can.

Min

Make love, not war on the unborn.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Father Damo wrote: »

Or get a cheap flight abroad. Jesus like :pac: I doubt theres been a backstreet abortion in Ireland in 25 years minimum.

My God, customs seizing drugs which have not been passed for sale by the dept of health. Shocking.

A backstreet abortion doesn't just refer to an abortion literally performed at the back of a street.

People end up buying drugs to kill the embryo or initiate labour at too early a stage for survival.

These drugs are unregulated if coming from illicit sources and dangerous if not used under medical supervision.

bronte

Min wrote: »

Make love, not war on the unborn.

Sigh.

Now where is my copy of "How to accept that you are either a human incubator or celibate and hopefully won't be raped"

Min

bronte wrote: »

Sigh.

Now where is my copy of "How to accept that you are either a human incubator or celibate and hopefully won't be raped"

If your existence is due to the result of rape, you are telling me we shouldn't have a bronte on this forum.

Chuchoter

Father Damo wrote: »

Yes. Because if abortion was legal it would be carried out on 14 year olds without parental consent.

Jesus ****ing Christ :rolleyes:

No need to start swearing at me.

What you said was that backstreet abortions were a thing of the past all women were able to make the short hop over to have an abortion in the UK. I pointed out that this was simply not true. There are several groups at risk of needing an unsafe abortion

I am not saying 14 year olds would be having abortions with no-one knowing. However, the UK does allow under 16s to have abortions without parental consent if two doctors agree on the subject. Giving young women somewhere to go and control over their bodies in a confidential way is not a bad thing.

Min

crayolastereo wrote: »

No need to start swearing at me.

What you said was that backstreet abortions were a thing of the past all women were able to make the short hop over to have an abortion in the UK. I pointed out that this was simply not true. There are several groups at risk of needing an unsafe abortion

I am not saying 14 year olds would be having abortions with no-one knowing. However, the UK does allow under 16s to have abortions without parental consent if two doctors agree on the subject. Giving young women somewhere to go and control over their bodies in a confidential way is not a bad thing.

Did the 14 year old (not talking about rape) not have control of her body when she was having sex?

Millicent

Min wrote: »

Did the 14 year old (not talking about rape) not have control of her body when she was having sex?

Legally, in Ireland at least, it's statutory rape if the girl is 14 so the point is moot.

Chuchoter

Min wrote: »

Did the 14 year old (not talking about rape) not have control of her body when she was having sex?

She is 14. You're the one who brought up the age thing and not being able to make decisions by herself (without parents knowing) you can't back out of it now. 14 year olds make mistakes.

In any case, I am not beholden to my body's ability to carry children. Its mine and I'll decide what happens with it.

philologos

Millicent wrote: »

Might that be because abortion is legal in Wales?

Low numbers of abortions => good as I would see it, as less lives are destroyed, and indeed more children have the opportunity to experience life as you or I do.

Personally, I think it is good in this country that only in the most serious of cases would it ever be considered to abort, namely a health risk to the mother.

There is something horrid about the idea that people can decide who lives or who dies, particularly when it comes to ones own children.

bronte

Min wrote: »

If your existence is due to the result of rape, you are telling me we shouldn't have a bronte on this forum.

No it is not.
Actually if we really want to go into it...lets.

I was concieved in 1984 to a 16 year old schoolgirl who I'm guessing had no access to condoms considering how available they were at the time. Especially to unmarried people. I was adopted via a religious adoption society who imposed a condition on my adoption that I be raised in the faith involved.
This faith opposes the use of any contraceptive and abortion.

You can start to get an idea why I passionately believe that women should have the right to emergency contraception/abortion in my home country.
The anguish that my birth mother must have faced is disturbing and all because of the situation as it stands in Ireland.

It needs to change.

Einhard

miss_shadow wrote: »

Women will have abortions no matter what lies in their path! making it illegal only makes the ordeal more of an ordeal..

Heroin addicts will seek heroin no matter what lies in their path. Perhaps heroin should be lagalised too. And crack while we're at it. Laws shouldn't be repealed simply because people are willing to circumvent those laws. Otherwise the Irish state would have legalised tax evasion for the wealthy in the 80s. You'll have to come up with a better argument than that I'm afraid.

Einhard

crayolastereo wrote: »

What about women who have been raped and don't want to tell anyone, but can't disappear for a few days with no-one asking questions?

AFAIK, rape victims are entitled to abortions in the Republic.

scientific1982

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

i absolutely despise the catholic cult but i also believe in the right to life

Yeah im with you. Im an atheist and no fan of religion but im not in favour of abortion with the exception of extreme circumstances.

Millicent

Jakkass wrote: »

Low numbers of abortions => good as I would see it, as less lives are destroyed, and indeed more children have the opportunity to experience life as you or I do.

Personally, I think it is good in this country that only in the most serious of cases would it ever be considered to abort, namely a health risk to the mother.

There is something horrid about the idea that people can decide who lives or who dies, particularly when it comes to ones own children.

Jakkass, I've debated this before with you so I know your feelings on this and you know mine. The fact that 4000 women here travel yearly to the U.K. for abortions though is still quite a number when you consider it.

How do you feel about these women who are so desperate that they are buying possibly dangerous drugs from the internet? Do you not believe that their right to safe medical treatment supersedes that of a foetus? (I know you consider a foetus as alive as you or I but I mean, would you not think it better to protect the health and therefore life of women who are going to do it anyway?)

GLaDOS

Einhard wrote: »

Heroin addicts will seek heroin no matter what lies in their path. Perhaps heroin should be lagalised too. And crack while we're at it. .

In fairness, there's debate over whether that's necessarily a bad idea

Millicent

Einhard wrote: »

AFAIK, rape victims are entitled to abortions in the Republic.

No they're not. The X case proved that. Women are only entitled to abortions if to have a child would put them in medical danger.

Chuchoter

Einhard wrote: »

AFAIK, rape victims are entitled to abortions in the Republic.

Not really, your life has to be in danger according to this:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/women-s-health/abortion-information-the-law

Einhard

oompaloompa wrote: »

FoxT I agree, abortion is horrid, however sometimes it is the best decision for the mother and child.

Ummm could you explain how being terminated could possibly be the best choice for what you acknowledge as the child? Not sure I'd agree on that one.

If Ireland stepped out of holy Catholic mode, they would agree to the legalisation of abortion and accept that since it is sometimes a necessary evil, we should protect the women of Ireland as best we can.

Perhaps if the people who liked murdering babies stepped out of their murdering babies mode....

See what I did there? I tarred everyone who disagrees with me with a broad, entirely sensationalist, entirely mendacious brush. Just as you did. I'm an atheist. I also believe that abortion should not be generally available. Perhaps you could tell me how, apart from the whole not believing in God thing, I could further step out of my "Catholic mode"?

Millicent

Einhard wrote: »

Ummm could you explain how being terminated could possibly be the best choice for what you acknowledge as the child? Not sure I'd agree on that one.

I assume he means children that will not survive outside the womb.

Teferi

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

i absolutely despise the catholic cult but i also believe in the right to life

Then you shouldn't get an abortion then.

Einhard

crayolastereo wrote: »

Not really, your life has to be in danger according to this:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/women-s-health/abortion-information-the-law

You're right. My bad.

shebango

scientific1982 wrote: »

Yeah im with you. Im an atheist and no fan of religion but im not in favour of abortion with the exception of extreme circumstances.

Have you ever been in a situation where you had to make this decision? If not, then how do you know that your feelings on the subject wouldn't change if you were to be in this position?

If for example, you found yourself with no financial means to raise the child, would you still consider having it? How would you support it then, nevermind support yourself?

It is a truly awful act but I don't think there needs to be 'extreme circumstances' involved to warrant having one.

Millicent

Einhard wrote: »

See what I did there? I tarred everyone who disagrees with me with a broad, entirely sensationalist, entirely mendacious brush. Just as you did. I'm an atheist. I also believe that abortion should not be generally available. Perhaps you could tell me how, apart from the whole not believing in God thing, I could further step out of my "Catholic mode"?

Actually, I'm curious about this viewpoint -- not trolling here, I promise. If you're an atheist, you don't believe in a soul, do you? A foetus prior to birth is cells, especially in the formation stage. Why are you more in favour of the life of cells over the rights of the woman?

Again, not trolling. Just interested in your viewpoint.