Help with pigeons

imola94

Hi
I've been asked by a local farmer if i would*shoot some troublesome pidgeons he has in his farm sheds. They have been creating problems for him in relation to the animals and their feed.
My question, is it possible to buy special shotgun cartridges for this job? Ones that wont blow the roof off the sheds. I think he has galvanised roofs on the sheds and the last thing he wants is holes blown through them.
Also what is the best way to go about this?I presume evening time would be best as they would be coming in to roost.
Thanks

seanw7

i will have to check but im nearly sure shooting Pidgeons is illegal... and Wrong !! there must be a better way to deal with this situation . maybe ask them to leave or trick them into leaving i dont think they are that smart.

It wasn't me!

seanw7 wrote: »

i will have to check but im nearly sure shooting Pidgeons is illegal... and Wrong !! there must be a better way to deal with this situation . maybe ask them to leave or trick them into leaving i dont think they are that smart.

Nothing illegal or wrong about shooting pigeons. If they're proper wild woodpigeons rather than feral woodpigeons, you've got yourself a tasty opportunity here. Don't believe there's a shotgun cartridge to do what you want, but if they're not living in the barn but commuting, establish a flightline and decoy them in the morning as they're travelling to feed.

ferrete

get someone with an airrifle

It wasn't me!

ferrete wrote: »

get someone with an airrifle

No, don't. It's illegal to kill birds with an air rifle.

ferrete

its vermin its inside the shed it wont damage the roof best job

It wasn't me!

ferrete wrote: »

its vermin its inside the shed it wont damage the roof best job

It's still illegal. I agree with you on the practical issue, but it's proscribed by the Wildlife Act. Here is the legislation.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's still illegal. I agree with you on the practical issue, but it's proscribed by the Wildlife Act. Here is the legislation.

Rat shot will work inside sheds without doing damage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot

J.R.

These are more than likely feral pigeons if they are roosting in the shed. If they are causing damage & you have owners permission (both apply to you) then you can shoot them.....so there's no worry there - they can be legally shot in such circumstances at any time of the year.

There are no cartridges available to fire indoors without damaging the roof plus the report would be deafening.

I have been in the same situation on numerous occasions where feral pigeons have been causing damage. They are riddled with disease, filty 'rats with wings' and destroyed cattle feed on the farms I've shot.

The way I did it was I set up the pigeon magnet, floater & decoys (all wood pigeons) in the yard. I set out the pattern to allow a clear shot away from the sheds as they approached.

This worked very well for first day as they came right in. After second day they became wary and didn't readily come in - some came in & some veered off. After that I didn't bring decoys, just hid in yard & shot them as they came in.

They will continue to come in all day. I used clay cartridges as they weren't that far out. After this you will have to drop back to the farm an odd time to give them another hammering. After a week or so most left the sheds....couldn't cope with the hassle.

As i said they're filty & riddled with disease so make sure to bring disposable gloves & bin bags when you're collecting them to dispose of.

The farmer was delighted & gave us shooting over his land.....400 acres of tillage that he'd refused the club.

imola94

Thanks for the replies lads, wouldn't be a great shot meself but shur will give it a go anyway. I'll just find somewhere to hide as they fly in towards the shed

Eddie B

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No, don't. It's illegal to kill birds with an air rifle.

Thaught we put this one to bed a while back!
Think one of the Mod's contacted the NARGC and they said it was perfectly legal to dispatch any vermin, (including birds) with an air rifle!!

It wasn't me!

Eddie B wrote: »

Thaught we put this one to bed a while back!
Think one of the Mod's contacted the NARGC and they said it was perfectly legal to dispatch any vermin, (including birds) with an air rifle!!

I don't give a fook, to be honest. It's written in law plain as day, and whatever NARGC say, you'll get slaughtered in court.

Eddie B

It was also writen in law, plain as day that you couldn't shoot pidgeons over stubble, now due to the NARGC it is perfectly safe and legal to do so!

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I don't give a fook, to be honest. It's written in law plain as day, and whatever NARGC say, you'll get slaughtered in court.

The derogations allow pigeons to be dealt with by shotgun or rifle. That one is out of date but contains the relevant info

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20for%20Leinster.pdf

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

The derogations allow pigeons to be dealt with by shotgun or rifle. That one is out of date but contains the relevant info

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/NPWS/Publications/Legaldocs/Declaration%20for%20Leinster.pdf

Un-moderated cartridge rifle, yes, but not air rifle. I'm not saying I think it's smart, but it's incontrovertibly the law. Also, to the stubble issue, find me the statute law that prohibits it, because you'll be a long time looking. The controversy there was over whether shooting over stubbles could be considered crop protection by virtue of the inevitability of predation on adjacent crops. The NARGC may be a few things, but they're not a legislative body, and the law on this is perfectly clear and doesn't take a genius to understand.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Un-moderated cartridge rifle, yes, but not air rifle. I'm not saying I think it's smart, but it's incontrovertibly the law. Also, to the stubble issue, find me the statute law that prohibits it, because you'll be a long time looking. The controversy there was over whether shooting over stubbles could be considered crop protection by virtue of the inevitability of predation on adjacent crops. The NARGC may be a few things, but they're not a legislative body, and the law on this is perfectly clear and doesn't take a genius to understand.

Can you quote the derogation (which is the legislation) where it makes the distinction between air rifle and cartridge rifle?

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

Can you quote the derogation (which is the legislation) where it makes the distinction between air rifle and cartridge rifle?

It doesn't, but since the statute legislation from which it draws its strength provides the information that cartridge rifles (un-moderated only) and shotguns are legal and that air rifles are not, the statute law provides the details. If you were to shoot pigeons with an air rifle, you'd be acting on an understanding of only the derived legislation and not the statute itself. By the same token, and under the exact same legislation, the rifle in question can't be moderated. The derogation is merely a legal provision authorised by the Wildlife Act; it doesn't supercede the provisions of the Act and while the firearms act doesn't distinguish an air rifle from a cartridge rifle, the wildlife act does, and its details must be adhered to.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It doesn't, but since the statute legislation from which it draws its strength provides the information that cartridge rifles (un-moderated only) and shotguns are legal and that air rifles are not the statute law provides the details. If you were to shoot pigeons with an air rifle, you'd be acting on an understanding of only the derived legislation and not the statute itself.

You do realise that woodpigeons as a "wild bird" cant be shot with a cartridge rifle either. It's section (b) of the legislation you quoted

Yet you accept that under derogation they can be shot with a cartridge rifle, as highlighted in the quoted text above.

Why is that, kind of a selective interpretation there no?

By the same token, and under the exact same legislation, the rifle in question can't be moderated. The derogation is merely a legal provision authorised by the Wildlife Act; it doesn't supercede the provisions of the Act and while the firearms act doesn't distinguish an air rifle from a cartridge rifle, the wildlife act does, and its details must be adhered to.

Well that makes no sense either, if the derogation doesn't supersede the Wildlife Act then nothing in the derogation would be legal. So that's just plain wrong

By your logic if we must adhere to the Wildlife Act and not the derogation then Larsen Traps are illegal and so is shooting Wood pigeon with any rifle. You cant pick and choose which bits apply and which bits don't

It's there in black and white that pigeon can be shot with a rifle, it doesn't distinguish between types either so any rifle is therefore fair game

It wasn't me!

My understanding is that the derogation specifies the circumstances of the removal of the protection. That's why section b isn't simply incorporated into section a. It's a differentiation for the purposes of identifying certain birds as circumstantially unprotected.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

My understanding is that the derogation specifies the circumstances of the removal of the protection. That's why section b isn't simply incorporated into section a. It's a differentiation for the purposes of identifying certain birds as circumstantially unprotected.

I don't know IWM

All I take from reading it, is that pigeon can now be shot with a rifle. Surely we both agree on that at least.

Going strictly by the Wildlife Act, and for the sake of argument there is no such thing as a derogation, you cant shoot them with any type of rifle (Section 33 part (1(b))) as they are a "protected wild bird" with an open season just like a pheasant or woodcock.

The derogation allows them to be shot with a rifle and in Section 33 of the Act rifle is defined as "(5) In this section "rifle" includes both a gas-rifle and an air-rifle."

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

I don't know IWM

All I take from reading it, is that pigeon can now be shot with a rifle. Surely we both agree on that at least.

Yes, but subject to restrictions within the parent act. The derogation serves to remove the protected status of the bird within certain circumstances. Section 33 (a) is therefore still applicable.

Going strictly by the Wildlife Act, and for the sake of argument there is no such thing as a derogation, you cant shoot them with any type of rifle (Section 33 part (1(b))) as they are a "protected wild bird" with an open season just like a pheasant or woodcock.

Hence why, under the derogation, which removes their protected status, section 33 (a) still applies, and why it exists, to differentiate between the two.

The derogation allows them to be shot with a rifle and in Section 33 of the Act rifle is defined as "(5) In this section "rifle" includes both a gas-rifle and an air-rifle."

Neither of which is a cartridge rifle, further evidencing the illegality of using an air rifle.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yes, but subject to restrictions within the parent act. The derogation serves to remove the protected status of the bird within certain circumstances. Section 33 (a) is therefore still applicable

Ah so you're back to selectively picking which legislation is still applicable and which isn't. Again you cant do that to support your argument. Well you can but it makes you wrong.

The derogation doesn't remove the protected status. No where in the derogation is that stated. So that makes your above point invalid

The derogation does 2 things. In the First Schedule it lists the species which can be controlled and the Second Schedule outlines what methods are acceptable.

Hence why, under the derogation, which removes their protected status, section 33 (a) still applies, and why it exists, to differentiate between the two.

It doesn't remove their protected status. So this point is invalid also

Neither of which is a cartridge rifle, further evidencing the illegality of using an air rifle.

What??

It says "include"

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

Ah so you're back to selectively picking which legislation is still applicable and which isn't. Again you cant do that to support your argument. Well you can but it makes you wrong.

The derogation doesn't remove the protected status. No where in the derogation is that stated. So that makes your above point invalid

The derogation does 2 things. In the First Schedule it lists the species which can be controlled and the Second Schedule outlines what methods are acceptable.



It doesn't remove their protected status. So this point is invalid also



What??

It says "include"

One way or another, you've to pick which is applicable, and the act itself is sovereign.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

One way or another, you've to pick which is applicable, and the act itself is sovereign.

And the derogation is part of the act, soooo

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

And the derogation is part of the act, soooo

No it's not. The derogation isn't statute law. It's a provision of the act itself.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No it's not. The derogation isn't statute law. It's a provision of the act itself.

Are statutory instruments not statue law?

imola94

Ahh here....
Sounds like way too much trouble to me

Vegeta

imola94 wrote: »

Ahh here....
Sounds like way too much trouble to me

It really isn't

The derogation allows pigeons to be shot with a rifle.

This is not just my stance on it. It is also supported by the NARGC (I checked with them personally), and while some users may say that's not good enough, well they're not going to give me legal advice like that very lightly.

Tikka Jim

if a tree falls in a forest.......does it make any noise,
If a lad shoots a few pigeons in a hayshed with an air rifle.....does anyone really care?:D

You could just use Alpha-Chloralose? :eek:

bunny shooter

Tikka Jim wrote: »

..You could just use Alpha-Chloralose? :eek:

Not on meat though which you wouldn't for pigeons BUT if a protected bird (especially a bird of prey) eats the "bait" and dies you'll be in a world of hurt :eek:

So IMHO use an air rifle and the birds of prey will be in less danger, simple :cool:

Birdnuts

Tikka Jim wrote: »

if a tree falls in a forest.......does it make any noise,
If a lad shoots a few pigeons in a hayshed with an air rifle.....does anyone really care?:D

You could just use Alpha-Chloralose? :eek:

All poison baits have been banned for birds(indeed for everything except rodents), just shoot the bloody things with an air-rifle:rolleyes:

johngalway

Tikka Jim wrote: »

if a tree falls in a forest.......does it make any noise,
If a lad shoots a few pigeons in a hayshed with an air rifle.....does anyone really care?:D

You could just use Alpha-Chloralose? :eek:

I believe this may have been changed lately, and now illegal.

Link to come momentarily, as I am not fully up on it myself yet.

Here we go,

http://www.environ.ie/en/Heritage/NationalParksandWildlife/News/MainBody,24265,en.htm

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

I believe this may have been changed lately, and now illegal.

Link to come momentarily, as I am not fully up on it myself yet.

Here we go,

http://www.environ.ie/en/Heritage/NationalParksandWildlife/News/MainBody,24265,en.htm

Thanx John - you just beat me to it;)

Mellor

Eddie B wrote: »

It was also writen in law, plain as day that you couldn't shoot pidgeons over stubble, now due to the NARGC it is perfectly safe and legal to do so!

Nothing of the sort is written in law.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yes, but subject to restrictions within the parent act. The derogation serves to remove the protected status of the bird within certain circumstances. Section 33 (a) is therefore still applicable.

Hence why, under the derogation, which removes their protected status, section 33 (a) still applies, and why it exists, to differentiate between the two.

This is where you are going wrong.
The reason for section B was that is was previously ok to kill vermin with a rifle. All birds are protected now. It's illegal to shoot all birds with a rifle. They are all protected under EU law.

IF the derog stated that "the protection of [species] under the wildlife act 1976 is removed from may to august"
then I would agree with you. Then they could be shot with a cartridge rifle only as section (b) would no longer apply.
But the derog doesn't say that. Or anything of the sort. The derog is nothing to do with lifting of protection.

3. (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of the Wildlife Act, 1976 (No. 39 of 1976).

(a) where the Minister is of the opinion that a species referred to in the First Schedule to these Regulations—

(i) is a threat to public health or safety,

(ii) is likely to cause serious damage to corps, livestock, fisheries or forestry,

(iii) is likely to cause damage to flora and fauna,

he may declare that for the purpose of preventing disease or injury the said species may be captured or killed in any part of the State or throughout the State by any of the means, arrangements or methods set out in the Second Schedule to these Regulations, during such period or periods specified in the declaration and by the person or persons or class of person or persons specified in the declaration,

In plain english, the minister can allow pigeons to be killed by any means in the second schedule, which states Shooting with rifle or shotgun. In order for the derog to separate cartridge rifles and air-rifles they would first have to be separated under the second schedule of the 1986 regulations. Which they aren't. This is further compounded by the fact that the wildact states that rifle means both types.

kfod

I'm confused?

Can you shoot pigeons with a rifle or not, or an air rifle or not? I thought that over stubble with a rifle or shotgun was ok.

Is there any clear (not trying to figure out all the SI's and acts) list of seasons and species that you can shoot, and in what way you can shoot them e.g gun type, decoys etc. it is confusing for someone new to shooting (aka me)

ghostmantra

imola94 wrote: »

Hi
I've been asked by a local farmer if i would*shoot some troublesome pidgeons he has in his farm sheds. They have been creating problems for him in relation to the animals and their feed.
My question, is it possible to buy special shotgun cartages for this job? Ones that wont blow the roof off the sheds. I think he has galvanised roofs on the sheds and the last thing he wants is holes blown through them.
Also what is the best way to go about this?I presume evening time would be best as they would be coming in to roost.
Thanks

i have seen shoot gun cartages with the lead taking out and replaced with rice and resealed with wax.i was told that thay were for shooting pigeons in sheds;)

Esel

ghostmantra wrote: »

i have seen shotgun cartages with the lead taken out and replaced with rice...

Fried rice 40c extra?