DFB Swords Ambulance to go

Smokey Bear

Well its back on the table again as per info from unions ,DFB looking at cutting D134 from Swords due budget cuts.As per meeting with unions last week. Surprised not mentioned already in media.

Dublin City Council and DFB saw the need for this ambulance in 2007 even when HSE said not required for North County.I believe its the fastest growing area in Ireland.DFB paid for it out of their own funds not funded by HSE.So crunch time, money in budget cut so what to do?? They save €600,000 and 10 positions saved by cutting D134.As no recruiting planned for 2011 and they need all personnel.DFB are still looking for alternatives to save D134.Council have no money. Even though the Fire Services is exempt from moratorium for recruitment and there is a need for personnel to cover the 130 plus retirements over last 18 months.No money being given to fill the gaps.

How many lives will be lost.

Even if D114 (2nd Tara st ambo in town) is redeployed lives will still be lost.Reducing ambulance numbers in Dublin when A+E's are getting busier.Even JCM has delays now.The whole debate about provision of service will start again ,maybe even finish this time !!.

Patients will suffer delays will increase and more and more fire engines will be babysitting patients and even transporting them as no ambulances available.Nothing worse than being with a PT who needs an ambulance and none available and relatives breathing down your neck.

Was the spirt of The Croke Park agreement not to deliver a better public service to the citizens of Ireland?I can see ES personnel delivering this so called improvement in service with their lives as budgets are cut.

Croke Park should not be used as a guise for cuts on essential Public Services.There are certain services that public servants deliver that need to be protected and financing ring fenced.
Front line services such as emergency services, are services that are provided to the public for their safety.

Emergency services cannot be seen as a profit making business or even tried to be run on a profit basis.This is what the politicians I believe are trying to do.It just cant work that way.

As all public servant jobs are different, cuts in one will have a dramatic difference than cuts in another.


Looks like a great start to the new year all ready,bring on the budget !!!!

Smokey Bear

Elessar

We've heard all this before. They were even sending letters around to housing estates in swords last year warning the swords ambulance would be taken out of service by August, pressure your TDs it said! The ambulance is still there. It's not going anywhere. The ambulance is too valuable in swords. If they absolutely have to they'll take one from Tara st.

I would like to see this issue resolved but let's face it, there is no money and with €1bn being slashed off the HSE budget next year, the DFB are not going to see any of that for the new ambulance. You can't blame the HSE. They didn't authorise funding for the extra ambulance but the DCC went ahead anyway and now they're throwing their toys out of the pram because it might have to go. How was it funded for the last three years?

Dublin badly needs more ambulances but the way DCC went about it was never going to solve the problem.

dfbemt

Get rid of one pump from a quieter 2 pump station. That will get rid of approx 24 jobs, allowing for leave. If you take €60k as the mean as used by the OP that will save €1.44million.

That will save Swords and put another 2 ambs on the run if that is what is really wanted !!!!

FFS, we are the fire brigade. If the HSE want the ambulance, let them pay for it. If they don't, why should we have moral pressure applied and the usual 'lives will be lost............'

We have 10+ year old appliances on the go at the moment. We cannot get replacement equipment and some stations are falling down around us. Get rid of 134 and get us the tools we really need.:mad:

Elessar

Elessar wrote: »

We've heard all this before. They were even sending letters around to housing estates in swords last year warning the swords ambulance would be taken out of service by August, pressure your TDs it said! The ambulance is still there. It's not going anywhere. The ambulance is too valuable in swords. If they absolutely have to they'll take one from Tara st.

I would like to see this issue resolved but let's face it, there is no money and with €1bn being slashed off the HSE budget next year, the DFB are not going to see any of that for the new ambulance. You can't blame the HSE. They didn't authorise funding for the extra ambulance but the DCC went ahead anyway and now they're throwing their toys out of the pram because it might have to go. How was it funded for the last three years?

Dublin badly needs more ambulances but the way DCC went about it was never going to solve the problem.

We weren't looking at €4-€6bn in cuts over the last three years.

Paulzx

Elessar wrote: »

You can't blame the HSE. They didn't authorise funding for the extra ambulance but the DCC went ahead anyway and now they're throwing their toys out of the pram because it might have to go. How was it funded for the last three years?

Dublin badly needs more ambulances but the way DCC went about it was never going to solve the problem.

Dublin has needed more ambulances for years but the HSE can't get their thumbs out of their asses to address this.

The "way DCC went about it " was the only way an extra ambulance was going to enter service. The last ambo into service in the DFB was 1986 in Blanchardstown Fire Station. I think we waited long enough.

A case was made using the amount of turnouts all the other northside ambos were doing in the Swords area to provide an additional DFB ambo in the newly opened fulltime station.

to accuse the DFB of throwing their toys out of their prams shows a complete ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject. DCC are owed millions of euro for the ambos they have provided under contract. The HSE refuses to pay up.

Its time for our management to grow a set of balls and get the money they are owed by the hse.

Do you think any of the private ambo companies would allow a situation whereby they are not paid for contracted services? They'd be in court in an instant

supermedic

Not sure where the idea that the HSE owes millions to DCC comes from. The HSE have "contracted" DFB for 11 ambulances for God only knows how long. Thats all, no more , no less. They have never requested the DCC to provide any other service. The DCC have for years tried to charge the HSE for the ongoing training of nearly 800 firefighters in ambulance related topics when the HSE have made it clear that only some 110 staff are required to staff 11 ambulance 24/7 inclusive of relief cover.
Why should the already stretched HSE pay for nearly 700 extra staff to be trained to provide a service that could be provided by 100. It is an internal DCC matter why they choose to rotate all staff on to the ambulances, not one for the HSE to worry about. The old argument about the benefits of having all trained firefighters/paramedics and loads of trained people at each event is noble, but the HSE has to run the ambulance service for the entire state out of a diminishing fund.
If the DCC want extra ems resources then they are going to have to pay. As a point of information, the HSE have had a second ambulance in Swords for several months with plans for a third in the coming weeks.

Smokey Bear

Not sure where you are getting your ideas from supermedic.

The already stretched HSE should examine itself closely were it wastes its money first.
The monies owed to DFB is for agreed service levels which HSE did not pay for.

The service that DFB provide could not be provided by a hundred personnel it provides a fully integrated Fire based EMS model.

Do you think anyone could work the 999 workload in Dublin be they HSE or DFB?They would be burnt out very quickly doing day in day out with the current ambulance numbers and even quicker if no cover was provided by DFB fire engines.

Imaging the service that could be delivered to our patients from the moment they rang for help to being treated on scene ,treated in A+E and hospital wards and then discharged with follow up community based service.Just imagine what this wasted money could do for patient care.

Patient care is what its all about but HSE seem to have forgotten about this.
We are here for the patients needs.
What is wrong with an organisation who strives to put patient care first and continually tries to improve itself fixes faults in it service delivery.
DFB have being providing an ambulance service for the citizens of Dublin for nearly 110 years.
In Dublin by using a fire based EMS model it has delivered the second best out of hospital cardiac arrest survival rates in the world.

Take it you are not a fan of FIRE Based EMS model.In economic term this form of service delivery is proven to be very cost effective model in the long run. For those of you unsure what a fire based EMS model is this link explains it .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl-rO6RGVCk
In regards to the second ambulance in Swords is this not a Pt transport mini Bus??

Smokey Bear

supermedic

No doubt the 999 workload is high in Dublin, but people in your own organistion have already stated the fact that many of the 999 calls are Alpha or even omega calls that should not get a 999 response. I think the last figures from DFB are around 70'000 a year for Ambulances, that equates to about .7 of a call per hour per vehicle. High but not that high.

We are aware of the long and proud history of DFB and the 110 years of service, many of which were provided by horse drawn cart... not sure where you are going with that.

As I said before, if DFB decide to provide a model of "fire based EMS care" then that is a matter for them. The HSE look for and pay for 11 ambulances, thats all.

Sure, in an idea world, the entire country would have a well resourced co-ordinated ambulance and fire service, capable of a short response time, with the highest level of training and equipment. But we are where we are. Is it fair that the citizens who choose to live outside dublin, have to fund the DFB to provide a higher level of reponse than they can expect anywhere else.

This is one of many counter arguments to the fire based model and we could go around and around for days arguing ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad80GcWSJC0&feature=related[/URL]

As far as an organisation that puts patient first, your organistaion, even in those other fire based ems systems , is one of a handful who refuse to provide a fully integrated ambulance system and will only respond to so called "emergency calls"

As for the cardiac arrest survival rates, can you provide a link to that research. I'm only aware of data from the OCHAR, "out of hospital cardiac arrest register" which is currently only looking at data from the 3 areas and not from Dublin. A colleague looked at survival in the Cork area but i have not seen published data from Dublin. Are these survival to admission, ROSC or survival to discharge that you refer to.

fastbowler

In fairness having seen both DFB and HSE ambulance crews at work I know who I'd rather was looking after a member of my family if god forbid they ever needed an ambulance. It's not for the control room staff to refuse to send an ambulance to a scene and the crews can only deal with what is in front of them at the time so in essence a call is a call and each call is different than the next. Both sides can use stats to back up their argument but at the end of the day if the DFB ambulance is taken out of Swords people's lives will be at risk while the HSE call on DFB to provide a motor to cover a workload that they just won't be able to handle.

ivabiggon

fastbowler wrote: »

In fairness having seen both DFB and HSE ambulance crews at work I know who I'd rather was looking after a member of my family if god forbid they ever needed an ambulance. It's not for the control room staff to refuse to send an ambulance to a scene and the crews can only deal with what is in front of them at the time so in essence a call is a call and each call is different than the next. Both sides can use stats to back up their argument but at the end of the day if the DFB ambulance is taken out of Swords people's lives will be at risk while the HSE call on DFB to provide a motor to cover a workload that they just won't be able to handle.

well fast bowler..."prey tell".

you made the statement, don't leave us all hanging, who would you rather??

Paulzx

supermedic wrote: »

As far as an organisation that puts patient first, your organistaion, even in those other fire based ems systems , is one of a handful who refuse to provide a fully integrated ambulance system and will only respond to so called "emergency calls"

.

We don't refuse to answer any calls. As you were happy to mention previously the HSE contracts the dfb to provide a service. This service is to answer 999 calls. Not routine patient transfer. Many of your own crews think this should be segragated away from 999 ambos.


We do however respond to emergency transfers when a and e's request us...normally when a hse ambo is not available.

The integrated EMS system works. We are going to lose it. The people who lose out will be the public at large

Tango Alpha 51

Fastbowler, as ivabiggon has stated, pray tell who you refer to because either way your going to cast aspertions on a service!.

To all the lads in the DFB, seeing as it's a contract to provide ambulance cover, what happens if the HSE decide not to renew it.

Paulzx

buzzman wrote: »

Fastbowler, as ivabiggon has stated, pray tell who you refer to because either way your going to cast aspertions on a service!.

To all the lads in the DFB, seeing as it's a contract to provide ambulance cover, what happens if the HSE decide not to renew it.

Sorta depends on a couple of things. As far as i'm aware there has never been a full service level agreement drawn up so the DFB were just left doing the job after the Health Boards were formed in the seventies. Supposedly a formal service level agreement is on the cards soon.

If the HSE decide to pull all funding and do the job themseleves a couple of things could happen.

1.. DCC decide...happy days we dont want the hassle of it anymore..sucking up our resources and not getting funding commensurate with the cost of providing the service. Let the HSE do what they want with it. It's now their problem.


2... DCC decide they want to keep it and fight for the provision of the service. They will probably try and use the European Court ruling which more or less desiganated DFB as a near statuatory provider. Things could get interesting on the legal front.


Either way there is a mess coming down the tracks. With funding tight i presume DCC would be happy to wash their hands off it.

Tango Alpha 51

Cheers Paulie for d quick reply mate

Delancey

What would be the reaction of DFB staff to the HSE providing the service itself ? Glad to be shut of it or something worth fighting for ?

Paulzx

delancey42 wrote: »

What would be the reaction of DFB staff to the HSE providing the service itself ? Glad to be shut of it or something worth fighting for ?

Most lads take pride in the service they provide and their dual qualification. They don't want to give it up.

If the hse take it back the paramedic qualification will be lost to DFB over time. The hse won't respond fire engines to assist ambos and skillsets will be lost. New entrants won't be trained as paramedics when they join.

Dublin will revert to a standalone Ambulance service the same as the rest of the country.

fastbowler

buzzman wrote: »

Fastbowler, as ivabiggon has stated, pray tell who you refer to because either way your going to cast aspertions on a service!.

As a member of DFB myself you can imagine which service I'm talking about. I have seen enough of how HSE crews work at scenes to have formed my opinion though I think it would be going off topic here to go into details of individual cases. At the end of the day I think it would be a huge loss to see D134 go and also to see the ambulance go from DFB. I can't see it happening though because as far as I'm concerned the standards of care delivered by DFB should be the national standards that other services should be aspiring to reach. It's all about the patient.

Actual Paramedic

Smokey Bear wrote: »

1 The monies owed to DFB is for agreed service levels which HSE did not pay for.

2 Do you think anyone could work the 999 workload in Dublin be they HSE or DFB?They would be burnt out very quickly doing day in day out with the current ambulance numbers and even quicker if no cover was provided by DFB fire engines.

3 In Dublin by using a fire based EMS model it has delivered the second best out of hospital cardiac arrest survival rates in the world.

4 In regards to the second ambulance in Swords is this not a Pt transport mini Bus??

Smokey Bear

Well Smokey,

1 Is there a set fee or just what the DFB charges? Maybe they charge an amount and can't justify the figure?

2 How can London ambulance service provide a good service and not have burn out, they are the busiest or one of the busiest services in the world. Argument doesn't work then.

3 Evidence please? From what research and journals printed in

4 Wrong

fastbowler wrote: »

As a member of DFB myself you can imagine which service I'm talking about. I have seen enough of how HSE crews work at scenes to have formed my opinion though I think it would be going off topic here to go into details of individual cases. At the end of the day I think it would be a huge loss to see D134 go and also to see the ambulance go from DFB. I can't see it happening though because as far as I'm concerned the standards of care delivered by DFB should be the national standards that other services should be aspiring to reach. It's all about the patient.

Doesn't add to the argument to put that piece in their and say nothing. People might infere the HSE is either dreadful or wonderful. I hope its the latter.

For the red text, are you sure that none of the HSE services around the country are not just as efficent or more than the DFB, what evidence do you have for this?

Paulzx wrote: »

Most lads take pride in the service they provide and their dual qualification. They don't want to give it up.

If the hse take it back the paramedic qualification will be lost to DFB over time. The hse won't respond fire engines to assist ambos and skillsets will be lost. New entrants won't be trained as paramedics when they join.

Dublin will revert to a standalone Ambulance service the same as the rest of the country.

Paulzx,

At last a good post, my point is the DCC might give back the ambulance as they won't have to worry about CPD for 1,000 or so paramedics and long term costings. Yes a big loss to the DFB if the ambulance goes but its the money men that make the decisions

aP

supermedic

Fastbowler, Your post shows the arrogance associated with you and some of your DFB colleagues.
Can i preface my remarks by saying that i have worked with and know many DFB staff members and find them to be top class, however i know many more and have experienced countless scenes where the treatment was far from a "standard" to be attained by the rest of the Country.
It is an almost universal flaw of the DFB people, who believe that what they see in Dublin is the same around the rest of the Country. I can tell you from 20 odd years of service that the HSE has hundreds of top class, extremely competent paramedics around the Country carrying out there role to the highest levels.

The facts are simple, the DFB model is vastly expensive and in this state at present we cannot afford it. The events of the coming months will effect the DFB, but to suggest that no one else could provide a service is not true. The HSE will need to separate the PTS work from the A&E stuff, but plans are in the pipe line for that. With the impending HIQA standards, the transformation agenda and the clinical directorate in the HSE, the NAS is going forward in a big way in the coming months.

Paulzx

supermedic wrote: »

With the impending HIQA standards, the transformation agenda and the clinical directorate in the HSE, the NAS is going forward in a big way in the coming months.

Are you in managment? You've just posted a clone remark from a HSE spindoctor.

I'd be very worried if operational personnel are going around spouting about "transformation agendas". Jeez:rolleyes:

supermedic

No, not management, but a realist. The only thing that has moved the ambulance service along in the last couple of years has been the money available for the transformation agenda. The concept of moving sick people to an appropriate location even if it is further away is perfectly sensible. Only those who are narrow minded and parochial will see it as a bad idea. Many more people will die from poor treatment by inexperienced medical staff in the local hospital than will ever die from travelling an extra few miles up the road.
HIQA are in the process of publishing key performance standards for ambulance services, they will be the driver for improvement in the coming year, not our "fantastic" management structure.
It would seem that the HSE at the highest level have finally realised how central to everything the ambulance service really are.
Not sure why you think transformation agendas are bad for operational staff!!??

fastbowler

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

For the red text, are you sure that none of the HSE services around the country are not just as efficent or more than the DFB, what evidence do you have for this?

My experience relates to Dublin obviously in relation to the emergency ambulance service but I have also worked around the country providing PTS. My opinions stem from these experiences and while I am sure that there are hugely competent and professional people working on ambulances around the country I am still well within my rights to express my opinion that the DFB model of Fire/EMS is the model to be aspired to. It may neither add nor subtract from the argument but its still my opinion.

If you need examples of anything PM me and I'll gladly furnish them without clogging up this thread.

Bang Bang

I usually avoid these threads that turn into the old HSE V. DFB 'debate'.
But I'm going to add to this one.

'HIQA are an authority with various powers when it comes to social health and care.

The Health Information and Quality Authority is responsible for driving quality and safety in Ireland's health and social care services through -

* Setting Standards in Health and Social Services
* Monitoring Healthcare Quality
* Social Services Inspectorate
* Health Technology Assessment
* Health Information

Our work spans the entire health and social services system, with the exception of Mental Health Services.'

They investigate and act on flaws in areas of health care and have the authority to close, shut down or withdraw services that appear to have flaws and award the duty of care to others. They have already exercised their powers in this regard with the closure of a number of health care facilities.

Some flaws worth noting and I'm not alleging that HIQA have investigated these flaws mentioned but I will say that those mentioned incidents have been reported.

2008 serious traffic accident Tallaght. Nearest ambulance was HSE approx 300 meters away who were on station and were not called. DFB ambulances responded.
Call received by DFB control.

2010 Serious house fire Ballybrack, four homes destroyed or damaged by fire. Four families evacuated. One diabetic patient treated by fire tender crew. Nearest ambulance station, Loughlinstown with a less than five minute response time. Call received by DFB Control, no ambulances responded yet two ambulances on duty were were on station in Loughlinstown.

2010 Serious house fire, Dalkey, Dublin. Nearest ambulance station Loughlinstown with crews on station.
No ambulances responded or called for.
One fatality in fire. Control received by DFB control.

There are numerous documented reports similar to the above and in my opinion they are flaws in the set up/management of a health care provider which is the DCC/DFB.

On the Swords ambulance, it will of course be a loss as would any ambulance but it was not part of the HSE/DCC 'agreement/contract' so why should the HSE be expected to foot the bill.
There has been a lot of inaccuracy on other forums regarding the loss of the Swords ambulance where it was portrayed that the Swords DFB ambulance was the only ambulance in Swords when it is one of three as the HSE provide two emergency ambulances from it's station in Swords.
The DFB will find it hard to drum up support from it's HSE peers when they (HSE) are totally disregarded in relation to the provision of an emergency ambulance service in the Swords area as it's 'pretended' in some areas of various media that the HSE NAS Swords station doesn't exist.

I will add that in my own personal experiences, I have enjoyed an excellent working relationship with many DFB personnel when being part of the team that responds to any incident where both services are in attendance.

Paulzx

Bang Bang wrote: »

I usually avoid these threads that turn into the old HSE V. DFB 'debate'.
But I'm going to add to this one.

'HIQA are an authority with various powers when it comes to social health and care.

The Health Information and Quality Authority is responsible for driving quality and safety in Ireland's health and social care services through -

* Setting Standards in Health and Social Services
* Monitoring Healthcare Quality
* Social Services Inspectorate
* Health Technology Assessment
* Health Information

Our work spans the entire health and social services system, with the exception of Mental Health Services.'

They investigate and act on flaws in areas of health care and have the authority to close, shut down or withdraw services that appear to have flaws and award the duty of care to others. They have already exercised their powers in this regard with the closure of a number of health care facilities.

Some flaws worth noting and I'm not alleging that HIQA have investigated these flaws mentioned but I will say that those mentioned incidents have been reported.

2008 serious traffic accident Tallaght. Nearest ambulance was HSE approx 300 meters away who were on station and were not called. DFB ambulances responded.
Call received by DFB control.

2010 Serious house fire Ballybrack, four homes destroyed or damaged by fire. Four families evacuated. One diabetic patient treated by fire tender crew. Nearest ambulance station, Loughlinstown with a less than five minute response time. Call received by DFB Control, no ambulances responded yet two ambulances on duty were were on station in Loughlinstown.

2010 Serious house fire, Dalkey, Dublin. Nearest ambulance station Loughlinstown with crews on station.
No ambulances responded or called for.
One fatality in fire. Control received by DFB control.

There are numerous documented reports similar to the above and in my opinion they are flaws in the set up/management of a health care provider which is the DCC/DFB.

On the Swords ambulance, it will of course be a loss as would any ambulance but it was not part of the HSE/DCC 'agreement/contract' so why should the HSE be expected to foot the bill.
There has been a lot of inaccuracy on other forums regarding the loss of the Swords ambulance where it was portrayed that the Swords DFB ambulance was the only ambulance in Swords when it is one of three as the HSE provide two emergency ambulances from it's station in Swords.
The DFB will find it hard to drum up support from it's HSE peers when they (HSE) are totally disregarded in relation to the provision of an emergency ambulance service in the Swords area as it's 'pretended' in some areas of various media that the HSE NAS Swords station doesn't exist.

I will add that in my own personal experiences, I have enjoyed an excellent working relationship with many DFB personnel when being part of the team that responds to any incident where both services are in attendance.

For balance the exact recipricol thing is happeneing in Loughlinstown ambulance area when the hse ambo control receives calls for rta's etc.
DFB from Dun laoire fire station are not being requested by the hse control until well into the incident.

If a call for a persond reported fire comes into dfb control the computer system makes it compulsory that the pre determind attendance includes an ambo. The operater cannot change this. If the call is not persons reported an ambo need not be sent. It can obviously change when the appliances arrive on scene.

There is no reason for DFB control not to request ambulances from Loughlinstown for an area we do not provide an ambo response to. Our controllers are being hauled in on the mat for much lesser indescretions and would not take the risk of their job

Bang Bang

Paulzx wrote: »

For balance the exact recipricol thing is happeneing in Loughlinstown ambulance area when the hse ambo control receives calls for rta's etc.
DFB from Dun laoire fire station are not being requested by the hse control until well into the incident.

If a call for a persond reported fire comes into dfb control the computer system makes it compulsory that the pre determind attendance includes an ambo. The operater cannot change this. If the call is not persons reported an ambo need not be sent. It can obviously change when the appliances arrive on scene.

There is no reason for DFB control not to request ambulances from Loughlinstown for an area we do not provide an ambo response to. Our controllers are being hauled in on the mat for much lesser indescretions and would not take the risk of their job

Your description of the PDA for fires appears similar to the MPDS for RTA's received by the HSE control which determines the level of response, so not all RTA's require a fire response.
But a family evacuated from a burning house, one person needing treatment for an existing illness, surely an ambulance should be called, even for the safety of your own crews who entered the fire.

My example of the RTA in Tallaght has been often repeated, ambulances have been required and the nearest ambulance is not been requested. This is one of the reasons HIQA want a single provider and/or control center.

Paulzx

Bang Bang wrote: »

Your description of the PDA for fires appears similar to the MPDS for RTA's received by the HSE control which determines the level of response, so not all RTA's require a fire response.
But a family evacuated from a burning house, one person needing treatment for an existing illness, surely an ambulance should be called, even for the safety of your own crews who entered the fire.

My example of the RTA in Tallaght has been often repeated, ambulances have been required and the nearest ambulance is not been requested. This is one of the reasons HIQA want a single provider and/or control center.

All rta calls coming into the DFB control receive a pda of both ambulance and fire engine. This is what a true integrated EMS system will provide.

as i have said previously, this is soon to be lost

Actual Paramedic

fastbowler wrote: »

My experience relates to Dublin obviously in relation to the emergency ambulance service but I have also worked around the country providing PTS. My opinions stem from these experiences and while I am sure that there are hugely competent and professional people working on ambulances around the country I am still well within my rights to express my opinion that the DFB model of Fire/EMS is the model to be aspired to. It may neither add nor subtract from the argument but its still my opinion.

If you need examples of anything PM me and I'll gladly furnish them without clogging up this thread.

There are examples of bad within the HSE indeed and I can give you even more examples than you have but in the overall scheme they number less than 10%. To my mind the DFB would be the same in % at least.

Personally am not here for a pissing match with DFB v HSE.

Your well entitled to your opinion and thats everyones right but to state one service is the mutts nuts and the other is no where near then evidence is needed. We can all provide anecdotal evidence but one offs happen.

I'd say to you if the standard you happen upon continues then as a registered practioner you are obliged to report these cases for the publics safety. Go to PHECC and start a FTP. Its your duty

Actual Paramedic

Paulzx wrote: »

All rta calls coming into the DFB control receive a pda of both ambulance and fire engine. This is what a true integrated EMS system will provide.

as i have said previously, this is soon to be lost

Paulzx, your right about the integrated service but the other fire services in the country are not on for their fire tenders been dispatched to all RTC's. This is from high up CFO level and the like, yet again boils down to money.

Bang Bang

Paulzx wrote: »

All rta calls coming into the DFB control receive a pda of both ambulance and fire engine. This is what a true integrated EMS system will provide.

as i have said previously, this is soon to be lost

But the DFB also have MPDS, are they not using the chosen system as approved by HIQA which would result in saving resources that are not required!!

Paulzx

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

Paulzx, your right about the integrated service but the other fire services in the country are not on for their fire tenders been dispatched to all RTC's. This is from high up CFO level and the like, yet again boils down to money.

Correct. It is the fault of the relevant CFO's that a fire response is delayed. HSE control can only go on the direction received from the local Fire Service

Paulzx

Bang Bang wrote: »

But the DFB also have MPDS, are they not using the chosen system as approved by HIQA which would result in saving resources that are not required!!

Look, if you think that providing a timely response is a waste of resources well so be it. I'm not going to argue with you about HIQA this and HIQA that.

We have always worked by a motto of "if in doubt turn them out". Its much easier to cancel an appliance than have it delayed

Bang Bang

Paulzx wrote: »

Look, if you think that providing a timely response is a waste of resources well so be it. I'm not going to argue with you about HIQA this and HIQA that.

We have always worked by a motto of "if in doubt turn them out". Its much easier to cancel an appliance than have it delayed

That's fine Paulzx, but none of us can lose sight of the fact that it is HIQA that are pushing for the system that is deemed the correct one to use as proven in many countries and that is one control for any Ambulance service and using the MPDS system and that to be awarded to the service deemed fit.

Elessar

Without wanting to upset the applecart:

The loss of an ambulance in a city the size of Dublin is definitely a terrible thing, no doubt; however I have to side with the HSE on this one as there was never a mandate for more than 11 ambulances to be provided by DFB. And if the reports that the HSE is putting another ambulance into Lisenhall are correct, I can't see why the loss of D134 is as awful as people make out.

Regardless, as a swords local I would love to see it kept on, and hope it is. As I see it, the two main problems facing Dublin EMS are A) The number of ambulances full stop and The two tier dispatch system.

Paulzx

Elessar wrote: »

. As I see it, the two main problems facing Dublin EMS are A) The number of ambulances full stop

That completely contradicts the rest of your post.

fastbowler

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

T
Personally am not here for a pissing match with DFB v HSE.
Its your duty

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder in relation to the DFB but lets get back on subject please. Its good to be talking about this loss of service for a huge area of Dublin so more people are aware. It's the people of Swords who are going to suffer at the end of the day. Hopefully D134 will remain in Swords where it and its crews are helping save lives.

Elessar

Paulzx wrote: »

That completely contradicts the rest of your post.

Let me clarify then: The more ambulances the better. If the DFB wish to retain D134 though they should pay for it, at least partly, as they have been since 2007. The information campaign however has not highlighted the extra vehicle for Lisenhall; and that the level of cover is not decreasing. The HSE has not actually taken an ambulance away, as reports suggest.

Paulzx

Elessar wrote: »

Let me clarify then: The more ambulances the better. If the DFB wish to retain D134 though they should pay for it, at least partly, as they have been since 2007. The information campaign however has not highlighted the extra vehicle for Lisenhall; and that the level of cover is not decreasing. The HSE has not actually taken an ambulance away, as reports suggest.

If you want to believe that the level of cover wont decrease do so.

The HSE are on the Dail record as saying that they have 55 ambulances covering the eastern region. This is an answer to a Dail question about their ambulance provision in the region.

What this doesn't tell you is the amount of crews that are actually on duty at any one time. It aint anywhere near 55. Vehicles sitting in yards with no crews arn't worth a sh*te

If you believe hse management are open and honest well fair play to you

dfbemt

Date now given as 6th January for the end of D134.

This is only the beginning. What next?

ivabiggon

http://trevorsargent.ie/2010/12/22/swords-ambulance-service-saved-pending-discussions/

small reprieve, for the moment??:cool: