Injured Doe - What would/do you do?

Cass

As the title says lads i have a question you lot may be better able to answer.

A friend of mine came over to me about an hour or so ago. Was out doing a bit of vermin control (from earlier this evening/ before dusk) on one of the permissions both of us shoot. While out he noticed a Doe in the distance "acting" funny. She was jumping around, but in an odd manner. He could not get close enough to it to see so he scoped her through his rifle scope. He saw that her rear left leg was missing from the "knee" joint down. It was there, but as he put it " the hair was all that was holding in on".

Here is the problem. He could not shoot it to put it out of it's misery as he had his foxing rifle with him, not to mention it was a Doe. He said he would have been very weary of shooting it even if he had his deer rifle as it was a Doe out of season. He asked me what i would have done. I said i would have tried to contact a ranger. He tried this, but no answer.


My question from all this is what could/should have been done? Would it be legal to shoot an out of season deer if it was a humane thing? Would you suffer if caught doing this? If you cannot contact a ranger what is the next thing to do? I ask only as i have never encountered a situation such as this before.


Any help or advice welcomed.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

As the title says lads i have a question you lot may be better able to answer.

A friend of mine came over to me about an hour or so ago. Was out doing a bit of vermin control (from earlier this evening/ before dusk) on one of the permissions both of us shoot. While out he noticed a Doe in the distance "acting" funny. She was jumping around, but in an odd manner. He could not get close enough to it to see so he scoped her through his rifle scope. He saw that her rear left leg was missing from the "knee" joint down. It was there, but as he put it " the hair was all that was holding in on".

Here is the problem. He could not shoot it to put it out of it's misery as he had his foxing rifle with him, not to mention it was a Doe. He said he would have been very weary of shooting it even if he had his deer rifle as it was a Doe out of season. He asked me what i would have done. I said i would have tried to contact a ranger. He tried this, but no answer.


My question from all this is what could/should have been done? Would it be legal to shoot an out of season deer if it was a humane thing? Would you suffer if caught doing this? If you cannot contact a ranger what is the next thing to do? I ask only as i have never encountered a situation such as this before.


Any help or advice welcomed.

i'd ring the local gardaí if the Ranger was not answering.
State, seriously wounded animal that he could dispatch safely and humanely.
The Gardaí are the enforcers if the law and the ones that come after you if you commit an offence.

If they say no, and you have no ranger to give you the go ahead.
Much as it pains me, i'd leave it go.

Licences are too hard got and some do gooder would love to catch you shooting a Doe out of season.

Perhaps a phonecall to Ballybay Monday might be the best answer

welsummer

He was well within he right to dispact the deer any way possable.

the wild life act says that it is not an offence to kill humanely a protected wild animal which is injured

CJhaughey

I had this before, I came upon an injured Hind that had been hit by a car.
Her leg was very bad and she was in shock.
I rang the local ranger and she said that it was fine to dispatch the animal with care.
This was on a main road so I was not about to use a high powered rifle, a knife would suffice for a Hind (maybe not a Stag)
But by the time I had contacted the Ranger and returned the hind was dead.
If I saw a deer that badly injured and all I had was a foxing rifle then I would try and get as close as possible and head or neck it.

ssl

Calling the law mighten be a bad option. Afaik there authorised to put injured animals out of there misery themselves. I recon theyed contacted a hunter or come out to you and tell you to do the damage.

clivej

I stand to be corrected on this but....
You can dispatch a deer by any humain way to end it's life. So you could use a 22lr, shotgun etc. And it can be out off season as well.
And afasik you do not have to call the guards or ranger.

Now disposal of the remains is a different matter again I stand to be corrected but you may not butcher it for comsumtion as it may come under the heading of road kill.

Tackleberrywho

clivej wrote: »

I stand to be corrected on this but....
You can dispatch a deer by any humain way to end it's life. So you could use a 22lr, shotgun etc. And it can be out off season as well.
And afasik you do not have to call the guards or ranger.

Now disposal of the remains is a different matter again I stand to be corrected but you may not butcher it for comsumtion as it may come under the heading of road kill.

there are weird laws on road kill in the UK AFAIK, I'm not sure what Irelands stance on it is.

The problem is "guy dispatches doe, brings it home, and on the way he meets a garda checkpoint for road tax, can he prove that the doe was injured?"


Most guys will have a phone camera with them, I'd think it prudent to make a small video to show the animal was in pain and needed to be dispatched.

However, if you met an awkward garda he/she could make your life difficult.
I still believe, ringing the garda station/wildlife ranger, making your case & letting them make the call is the most prudent option.

For an off topic example of being prudent.
Burning bushes in your field.
Burn bushes without contacting the local COCO for permission.
Local rings COCO, an inspector comes out and fines you.

I've seen this happen in the past. Communication IMvHO is cruical if you want to keep on the right side of the law.

As a licenced deer stalker one can be asked to dispatch a deer by NPWS or the Gardaí as you are licenced and have public liability. The only thing you require is the out of season permisssion

My 2 cents

Sparks

The bit on not butchering it makes a lot of sense though.
Otherwise, you'd have every poacher out there "humanely dispatching" deer which then end up in dogfood tins. Or worse, setting traps to injure deer so that they can then humanely dispatch them.

Tikka Jim

4 weeks ago I was out hunting deer, and I found a young doe caught in the wire. 2 of her legs were badly broken, she had been in it for a few days. I shot her straight away. I don't care what the law is. As far as i saw it I was putting a poor animal out of its misery.

deerhunter1

ezridax wrote: »

As the title says lads i have a question you lot may be better able to answer.

A friend of mine came over to me about an hour or so ago. Was out doing a bit of vermin control (from earlier this evening/ before dusk) on one of the permissions both of us shoot. While out he noticed a Doe in the distance "acting" funny. She was jumping around, but in an odd manner. He could not get close enough to it to see so he scoped her through his rifle scope. He saw that her rear left leg was missing from the "knee" joint down. It was there, but as he put it " the hair was all that was holding in on".

Here is the problem. He could not shoot it to put it out of it's misery as he had his foxing rifle with him, not to mention it was a Doe. He said he would have been very weary of shooting it even if he had his deer rifle as it was a Doe out of season. He asked me what i would have done. I said i would have tried to contact a ranger. He tried this, but no answer.


My question from all this is what could/should have been done? Would it be legal to shoot an out of season deer if it was a humane thing? Would you suffer if caught doing this? If you cannot contact a ranger what is the next thing to do? I ask only as i have never encountered a situation such as this before.


Any help or advice welcomed.

I would have shot her, it would have been the right thing to do, I would have brought the animal to the nearest Garda station and show them for the record why you dispatched her, they are the people who prosecute not the rangers if a law has been broken, but under the circumstances it would be OK

Cass

Thanks lads for all the replies. Most of it seems to be what i was thinking and my mate too.

I got speaking to a few lads today and asked them about the same situation. They all said the same as ye lads, but one fella brought up a good point. If a ranger caught you or someone reported you to a ranger, they would have been "legally" obliged to prosecute you for shooting out of season. Although any judge would be a bad git to do you for it.

I find it all a bit "unbelieveable" that instead of just putting the animal out of it's misery that my mate had to stop and think then come back and ask my opinion, then for me to ask ye lot your opinons on what should have been a straight forward solution.

He'll be heading out tomorrow and if i'm with him we keep an eye out and video it, if it is somehow still alive. He reckons judging by the severity of the injury that it wouldn't last more than a day or two max.

Thanks again lads.

clivej

I think you were misinformed about the ranger having to report you. There is a rule somewhere that I read regarding the dispatching of injured game. Hcap manual perhaps???

Cass

Well what you said seems to make sense. You could dispatch the animal for humane purposes, but obviously not keep/take the carcass.

Will try a call tomorrow or Tuesday. See what the official line is. Just could not get ranger and in case i or he came across it again was hoping to get a "quick" answer and be able to deal with it there and then.

FISMA

I agree with Tikka Jim. If and I mean If there was no doubt that the animal was going to die and in doing so, suffer in the process, I would shoot and kill. No matter what the season.

If the Gardai, Wild Life people, or whomever fault me for that - so be it. I'll face the consequences.

In general, I have found the Gardai and Wildlife people to be fair. I cannot imagine either being offended by a humane act.

eagleriver

I still havent managed to find the relevant in the act but this is from the deer alliance website... last question on the page!!

"Q. What about injured deer found on the road or elsewhere?

Injured deer may be killed by any person, at any time, in or out of season, with or without a licence, using any legal means. It is not necessary to advise the National Parks & Wildlife Service, the Garda Siochana or anybody else, in advance. No further specific permission is required. This is a matter of policy as it relates to the humane treatment of injured animals and the prevention of further suffering."


http://www.deeralliance.ie/FAQ.htm

Grizzly 45

Next question..What do you do with the carcass??Cant leave it on the side of the road,as it is a health/traffic hazard,and cause of distress to passers by of a more delicate nature.Cant dump it over the hedge into somones property,at it might have TB or other communicable notifiable diseases,and you could be infecting somones herd?Cant see the Gaurds taking it away either.Seeing it is a ownerless animal if it is wild?
Local horse and animal knacker maybe??
Maybe the NPWS lads do like most US Fish&Game dept rangers??As it is kind of a job perk over there with not to badly banged up roadkill.Hence the US F&G lads over there are rather "large" to say the least.:D

Tackleberrywho

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Next question..What do you do with the carcass??Cant leave it on the side of the road,as it is a health/traffic hazard,and cause of distress to passers by of a more delicate nature.Cant dump it over the hedge into somones property,at it might have TB or other communicable notifiable diseases,and you could be infecting somones herd?Cant see the Gaurds taking it away either.Seeing it is a ownerless animal if it is wild?
Local horse and animal knacker maybe??
Maybe the NPWS lads do like most US Fish&Game dept rangers??As it is kind of a job perk over there with not to badly banged up roadkill.Hence the US F&G lads over there are rather "large" to say the least.:D

If you report it to the local COCO the local Knackery will collect it, and it becomes dog food.
AFAIK they charge the COCO €100 for the collection.

Mellor

ezridax wrote: »

He could not shoot it to put it out of it's misery as he had his foxing rifle with him...

I don't see how that makes a difference tbh.

Deer calibres exist so that as often as possible, a quick clean kill is the result. This is to prevent suffering to the animal.

With a smaller rifle, it might take longer for the animal to die, but the the suffering here is still a lot less than leaving the animal it its current state.

Cass

The lad is a stickler for the rules if you will. He didn't shoot it because it was out of season even though it would have been the right thing to do, but to shoot it with a non deer calibre would be a serious no-no. Not to mention (as before) he was unsure as to what to do so in his own words ......... " whatever about shooting it out iof season if i got caught doing it with the swift, i'm screwed"........

Honestly i don't blame the lad. I would have shot it, but as per this thread i wouldn't have know how "legit" it would have been.

I've since informed him and he is contacting the ranger (if he hasn't already done so) and running everything by him.

Mellor

ezridax wrote: »

The lad is a stickler for the rules if you will. He didn't shoot it because it was out of season even though it would have been the right thing to do, but to shoot it with a non deer calibre would be a serious no-no.

Why?
It's the min calibre for hunting deer, not for humanely dispatching an animal.

Just to be clear, I'm not critisising the guy, he was faced with a tricky situation and its better to do nothing if unsure than to gamble on it being ok.

Also, just for the sake of mentioning, the swift is technically a "Deer calibre" when using 55gr bullets. You are unlikely to get a license with one, but it meets the min requirements, as does .22/250
Just pointing it out, not suggesting anything, and i'm aware that he prob didn't ahve 55gr in the rifle when out foxing.

Tackleberrywho

Mellor wrote: »

Why?
It's the min calibre for hunting deer, not for humanely dispatching an animal.

Just to be clear, I'm not critisising the guy, he was faced with a tricky situation and its better to do nothing if unsure than to gamble on it being ok.

Also, just for the sake of mentioning, the swift is technically a "Deer calibre" when using 55gr bullets. You are unlikely to get a license with one, but it meets the min requirements, as does .22/250
Just pointing it out, not suggesting anything, and i'm aware that he prob didn't ahve 55gr in the rifle when out foxing.

This is what the Knacker uses

No mention of grain weight here

Tackleberrywho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr00arV2XIw

No grain here either!

Mellor

Well as I already said that the legal mins only apply to hunting.
I'm pretty sure one of our regulars uses a hand gun for dispatch.

Tackleberrywho

Mellor wrote: »

Well as I already said that the legal mins only apply to hunting.
I'm pretty sure one of our regulars uses a hand gun for dispatch.

"if" who ever you refer to "did" he would be in breach of the terms of his licence.

A captive bolt pistol has a different permit to a reg pistol.

Anyone who grew up on a farm or worked in a slaughter house will be familiar with a humane killer.

If on the side of the road he is the councils responscibility.
In the field injured, once you have notified the authorities use an appropiate calibre.
Our laws ar very sticky.
Munty are tiny yet a deer calibre approved by the NPWS is required to dispatch.

We don't make the rules, but we have to obey them.

Last thing anyone wants is some busy body reporting you for shooting a Doe out of season.

I was given the OK to shoot deer out of season 3 days before the section 42 came in the post as the ranger knew the area, knew it was a major problem, and knew that I knew what I was doing.

However had i jumped the gun and got stopped when I had no section, and no OK from NPWS I would have been up sh*t creek.

There is two ways to do everything.
Everyone out hunting has a phone with them. Ring Balybay if you have to, get a rangers number, ring the local station to where you are hunting and get all T's crossed and all I's dotted before you do anything.

The council call the knacker if someone reports it to teh council, I remember a knacker telling me, if you see an animal on teh road, ring teh council. (as he got paid then to come and sort it out)

Mellor

Tack, that's mostly true, but i'm not really sure what your point is.
Humane killers, shooting out of season, muntjac etc
none of those are relevant to the situation in the OP.

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

"if" who ever you refer to "did" he would be in breach of the terms of his licence

I don't want to get into this, as its a poster on this board, not a guy I know personally. But lets just say, he isn't a hunter who brings a handgun with him for the craic. He is in a position where he often has to dispatch deer, he has a hand gun for this, he put this down as his reason when applying for the handgun.

This all came from a previous thread, he might even post of this one at some point. I assume he still does unless something big changed recently.

A captive bolt pistol has a different permit to a reg pistol.

Anyone who grew up on a farm or worked in a slaughter house will be familiar with a humane killer.

I don't see the relevance here, to a guy in a field. Why are you bothering to mention this?
Anyone who has seen "No Country for Old Men" will be familar too btw

If on the side of the road he is the councils responscibility.
In the field injured, once you have notified the authorities use an appropiate calibre.
Our laws ar very sticky.
Munty are tiny yet a deer calibre approved by the NPWS is required to dispatch.

We don't make the rules, but we have to obey them.

Where does law refers to suitable calibre for dispatch? Honest question, i was/am under the impression there was none, so are the deer alliance going by the link above.
Muntjac are hunted, not dispatched, which is why the min calibre appiles.

I was given the OK to shoot deer out of season 3 days before the section 42 came in the post as the ranger knew the area, knew it was a major problem, and knew that I knew what I was doing.

However had i jumped the gun and got stopped when I had no section, and no OK from NPWS I would have been up sh*t creek.

Obviously.

There is two ways to do everything.
Everyone out hunting has a phone with them. Ring Balybay if you have to, get a rangers number, ring the local station to where you are hunting and get all T's crossed and all I's dotted before you do anything.

The council call the knacker if someone reports it to teh council, I remember a knacker telling me, if you see an animal on teh road, ring teh council. (as he got paid then to come and sort it out)

Where did anyone suggest any different.
Cover your ass at all times apples to pretty much everything in life imo.

Tackleberrywho

Mellor wrote: »

Tack, that's mostly true, but i'm not really sure what your point is.
Humane killers, shooting out of season, muntjac etc
none of those are relevant to the situation in the OP.relevence a calibre Swift was mentioned by the OP
I don't want to get into this, as its a poster on this board, not a guy I know personally. But lets just say, he isn't a hunter who brings a handgun with him for the craic. He is in a position where he often has to dispatch deer, he has a hand gun for this, he put this down as his reason when applying for the handgun.
Not knowing who you are referring to I can't comment, when I was applying back in 2006 lots of fellas were using that as a reason (post SI restrictions, only Authorised range was acceptaple)

This all came from a previous thread, he might even post of this one at some point. I assume he still does unless something big changed recently.


I don't see the relevance here, to a guy in a field. Why are you bothering to mention this? A captive bolt pistol is safe for the user at close quarters, a regular pistol is not. (especially a roadside)Anyone who has seen "No Country for Old Men" will be familar too btw


Where does law refers to suitable calibre for dispatch? Honest question, i was/am under the impression there was none, so are the deer alliance going by the link above.
Muntjac are hunted, not dispatched, which is why the min calibre appiles.
muntac could have been classed as Vermin and open for all centrefires, they were not So a fella shooting one with a .223 would get in the sh*t


Obviously.


Where did anyone suggest any different.
Cover your ass at all times apples to pretty much everything in life imo.

I'd never advocate the use of a pistol other than a captive bolt on wounded deer on the side of the roadside post RTA, or a deer hunting calibre in the field "head shot in this case" as it is the most humane for an already injured animal.

"I had the privalage of working for a knacker when in college" So I saw first hand how to safely dispatch.
he had a rifle as back up which was almost never used. The Captive bolt pistol did all.

Mellor

I never said that captive bolt isn't better, it most likely is (no exp, but I believe you).
Nor that deer calibres are better, then clearly are.
When when dispatching an injuried animal. We don't always have these choices.

Tackleberrywho wrote:

Mellor wrote:

Where does law refers to suitable calibre for dispatch? Honest question, i was/am under the impression there was none, so are the deer alliance going by the link above.
Muntjac are hunted, not dispatched, which is why the min calibre appiles

.
muntac could have been classed as Vermin and open for all centrefires, they were not So a fella shooting one with a .223 would get in the sh*t

Irrelevant, that when they are hunted.
I asked where is this legal minimum calibre for dispatching a injuried animal. do they exist?
I agree hunting calibres would be better, but best practice is a long way from legal limit.

Tackleberrywho

Mellor wrote: »

I never said that captive bolt isn't better, it most likely is (no exp, but I believe you).
Nor that deer calibres are better, then clearly are.
When when dispatching an injuried animal. We don't always have these choices.


Irrelevant, that when they are hunted.
I asked where is this legal minimum calibre for dispatching a injuried animal. do they exist?
I agree hunting calibres would be better, but best practice is a long way from legal limit.

The captive bolt , is min Cal IMHO, having said that during foot and mouth they used .22lrs to put down sheep in some parts (in the pen as sheep clustered together are calmer) The .22lr has no exit wound, however the captive bolt is safer as if you miss you miss, no ricochet

Mellor

I didn't say minimum in your opinion. I'm aware that you think captive bolt is minimum, that's fine.

You also said there was a legal minimum, this is news to me and I was wondering where it is?


I think think that the best tool available, if waiting for somebody to arrive with a captive bolt, or a deer calibre was going to take a significant length of time, and the animal was in constant pain and distress, imo a foxing rifle at hand is a better choice as the over suffering is far far less than leaving the animal to wait.
Sick sheep is different, slaugthering animals is different, animals that are injuried and in pain is a unique situation, and best for the animal is often quickest

Feidhlim Dignan

lads i think this is all too technical, it really up to yourself. if it was me id shoot the animal because i think i would be the right thing to do

Tackleberrywho

Feidhlim Dignan wrote: »

lads i think this is all too technical, it really up to yourself. if it was me id shoot the animal because i think i would be the right thing to do

Right thing to do, and the legal thing to do can sometimes differ.
The reason I would be cautious is one has to be sure.

Animals can take a knock and be fine afterwards, a limp today can disappear tomorrow.
However a dead Doe in the back of your wagon @ a garda checkpoint can land you with a lot of awkward questions and a "morally Right" issue to prove!

An animal dead is all they will see.
For the sake of a phone call Ring first, shoot second.

And I would still maintain that a deer hunting Calibre and nominated stalker is required.
The reason being, there are lots out there who would say, the animal could have been saved, the onus of proof is on the shooter.

I've been called to dispatch several sick or wounded animals, one should never get emotionally involved, be possessed of facts and act within the confines of the law.

The best advice is to contact NPWS first and Gardai.
Never take the law into your own hands.