Castletown estate, Celbridge, Land Transfer & Fencing

Castletown

Glad to see that the people have had their say. I hope the councillors get to read the submissions and that they are not just read by County Council Officials and the OPW. I would be a little concerned that any representation from CRA in the future to KCC or the OPW will not be taken seriously but read as the personal views of one or two people. This is because, it will now be clear to the OPW and KCC that in the first instance the principle of erecting the fence was not approved by the majority of Castletown residents, as they were not made aware of the proposals. This has resulted in futile discussions for three years and a complete waste of time for the OPW and KCC . I think that the OPW and KCC will have no desire to negotiate with CRA. They will view CRA as a small self interest group not representative of the majority view in the housing estate. This is a problem for the new officers which I hope in time can be rectified. I think that a new chairperson would help so that the CRA can be given a fresh face and new beginning.

joe cluxton

I believe that the launch of the part 8 process was the end of the negotiations.
The only way to engage with KCC under that process is by submissions and through the county councillors.
I thought SOS had received in excess of 400 signatures and that they therefore have a mandate to engage on behalf of the people who signed their petition.
Of course the CRA are at liberty to proceed by whatever route they choose.
However I, along with the majority of people at the recent EGM, voted to rescind the mandate that the CRA previously claimed to have.
I signed what I thought was an SOS petition and if the CRA attempt to use my signature for their own purposes I will seek to have my signature removed from the petition.

My understanding is that 5 local councillors are well aware of the views of residents, both those in favour of the fence and those against the fence. The other 20 councillors may not have the same level of awareness as our local councillors. I am in the process of contacting all councillors so that they will be aware of where I stand when it comes to the time for them to vote.
Changing the chairman might put a new face on the CRA. But as far as I am aware there are 12 members on the committee and the chairman was not acting alone but with the approval of the majority of the committee.

It is also well to remember that the CRA represents their membership. The councillors represent all residents irrespective of whether they are members of an association or not. The part 8 process allows for all residents (associated or not) to express their views. This allows anyone who is interested or concerned to have their views brought to KCC without fear of having their viewpoint diluted by or misrepresented by any group or association.
If you want to ensure that the councillors are aware of the view you express in your submission it is a simple matter of forwarding a copy of your submission to the councillors. I won’t be depending on KCC to do this.

The Raven.

Castletown wrote: »

Glad to see that the people have had their say. I hope the councillors get to read the submissions and that they are not just read by County Council Officials and the OPW. I would be a little concerned that any representation from CRA in the future to KCC or the OPW will not be taken seriously but read as the personal views of one or two people. This is because, it will now be clear to the OPW and KCC that in the first instance the principle of erecting the fence was not approved by the majority of Castletown residents, as they were not made aware of the proposals. This has resulted in futile discussions for three years and a complete waste of time for the OPW and KCC .

Yes, the residents have had their say, and they voted overwhelmingly against the fencing off of their green open space. Under normal circumstances with development plans, submissions are sent to the planning department, and probably not read by the councillors unless they are sent directly to them from the people making the submissions. I see no reason why the councillors shouldn’t be afforded the opportunity to read the submissions, either directly or through the planning process. I do believe they will get to read them one way or another.

There will be a lot more than 'one or two people' making submissions, which will now be more informed, and based on accurate information.

I think that the OPW and KCC will have no desire to negotiate with CRA. They will view CRA as a small self interest group not representative of the majority view in the housing estate. This is a problem for the new officers which I hope in time can be rectified. I think that a new chairperson would help so that the CRA can be given a fresh face and new beginning.

It would appear from recent events that the OPW and KCC never had any serious desire to ‘negotiate’ in any meaningful way as regards the fence. My understanding is that the 'negotiations' between the OPW, KCC and the CRA had already proved futile in the end, as KCC went ahead and launched the Part 8 process, in a closed meeting which excluded the public, the CRA and the press (but included the OPW), ignoring any 'agreements' about the fence. So, the ‘negotiations were a waste of time anyway.

I think that the Castletown Residents Association EGM was a great success for several reasons.

· The meeting was full to capacity of concerned residents.
· It brought residents together and provided a platform to air their views on the fence.
· It showed the councillors and everyone present that the rejection of the fence, in any shape or form, was almost unanimous (only 4 votes in favour, out of a packed room).

I don’t agree that there should be a new CRA chairperson. One must give credit where credit is due. To be fair, the chairperson has invited new members to come forward to form a new subcommittee to replace the outgoing liaison officer, to deal with all matters relating to the fence. This offer was taken up by several concerned residents who will work together as a group to bring the issue of the fence to a successful conclusion. Their objective is to stop the fence being erected, and to prevent the transfer of our green open space to the OPW, in accordance with the wishes of the vast majority of Castletown residents.

It will be obvious that the new subcommittee will represent the views expressed by the majority of residents as regards the fence, which was witnessed by all councillors present, and I have no doubt that this will not be seen by KCC as ‘a small self-interest group’.

I would also add here, that other members of the CRA have done considerably good work for the estate, and it is hoped that in future we can work together to find a solution to other problems relating to the woods.

joe cluxton

From recent conversations with neighbours not all residents have contact details for county councillors .
Perhaps the updating of the CRA website will see this information displayed for the benefit of residents.
I know it has been posted elsewhere but here is a link for anyone wishing to contact any or all of the 25 KCC councillors.
http://kildare.ie/countycouncil/CorporateAffairs/CorporateServices/MembersServices/MembersofKCC/

Castletown

Joe there is a procedure and if you don't follow that your submission may not count.
When KCC invite submissions in the local papers you then send your submission to the address given. There is no fee involved. This submission will be read by county council officials. A report on the submissions received will be presented to the councillors. I would advise that you also send your submission to the councillors to ensure that they get to read your views.

The vote will come before 25 councillors. Not all will be present on the day. You will need a majority of the councillors on the day to win the vote.



The situation at the moment is that there are 9 FG councillors , 6 FF and 6 Labour along with 4 independents.



The councillors in the south of the county will not be concerned with this issue and will take their lead from the north Kildare councillors in their party. To ensure that you carry this across the line you need to get the support of Senan Griffin or Paul Kelly who in turn will get the support of the councillors in the south.


It is very likely that you will have the support of Labour and the Independents , but that only makes up 10 votes, you need at least 13. Therefore you will be depending on the FG or FF vote.

The Raven.

joe cluxton wrote: »

The only way to engage with KCC under that process is by submissions and through the county councillors.

Just to clarify this, the submissions have to be sent to Kildare County Council after the plans are put on public display. All of this has already been explained. The KCC address and reference number to accompany all submissions will be provided.

If people wish to send their submissions to councillors separately, they are free to do so, but the submissions have to be sent to KCC at the address provided, otherwise they will not be valid.

I thought SOS had received in excess of 400 signatures and that they therefore have a mandate to engage on behalf of the people who signed their petition.
Of course the CRA are at liberty to proceed by whatever route they choose.
However I, along with the majority of people at the recent EGM, voted to rescind the mandate that the CRA previously claimed to have.
I signed what I thought was an SOS petition and if the CRA attempt to use my signature for their own purposes I will seek to have my signature removed from the petition.

The purpose of the SOS petition was to show to the CRA the amount of residents who were not in favour of the fence, as residents, prior to the meeting, were unaware of what the CRA voting was about.

My understanding at the EGM was that the voting was on two issues:

1. To rescind the previous CRA mandate to negotiate.

2. A ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question as to whether the voters wished the CRA to reject or accept the fence. (words to that effect, correct me if I am wrong).

As the residents voted for the CRA to reject the fence, by an overwhelming majority, it would appear to me that the CRA now have a mandate from the residents to reject the fence.

You did sign an SOS petition, which is separate from the CRA vote. I am assuming that you also voted for the CRA to reject the fence, unless you were one of the 4 people who voted in favour of the fence.

There is no question of the SOS petitions being used by the CRA. What would be the point of that? The CRA don’t need those petitions. They have the majority of members’ votes against the fence.

It is also well to remember that the CRA represents their membership. The councillors represent all residents irrespective of whether they are members of an association or not.

It is also important to remember that non-members of the CRA would have been allowed to vote at the EGM, were it not for the fact that one or two members objected to non-members voting.

joe cluxton

Castletown wrote: »

Joe there is a procedure and if you don't follow that your submission may not count.

Castletown wrote: »

When KCC invite submissions in the local papers you then send your submission to the address given. There is no fee involved. This submission will be read by county council officials. A report on the submissions received will be presented to the councillors. I would advise that you also send your submission to the councillors to ensure that they get to read your views.

The vote will come before 25 councillors. Not all will be present on the day. You will need a majority of the councillors on the day to win the vote.



The situation at the moment is that there are 9 FG councillors, 6 FF and 6 Labour along with 4 independents.



The councillors in the south of the county will not be concerned with this issue and will take their lead from the north Kildare councillors in their party. To ensure that you carry this across the line you need to get the support of Senan Griffin or Paul Kelly who in turn will get the support of the councillors in the south.


It is very likely that you will have the support of Labour and the Independents, but that only makes up 10 votes, you need at least 13. Therefore you will be depending on the FG or FF vote.

Are those ten votes a certainty at this stage? Do we need to lobby all the councillors or concentrate on the FF/FG vote?

Only three labour councillors (Cllr. Kevin Byrne, Cllr John McGinley and Cllr. Colm Purcell) have publicly pledged support. That support has actually been pledged to the residents of Celbridge. Whilst 400 signatures may well be a significant number in relation to Castletown it is significantly smaller in relation to Celbridge.
Catherine Murphy has already stated that it is no longer an issue of concern solely for the residents of Castletown. KCC have opened it up to the public at large. To quote her: “people from Timbuktu can put in submissions.” She wishes to hear all views so that she can make an informed decision when it comes to voting.
We are after all talking about a public open space, open to the entire public and not just the residents of Castletown. With or without negotiations this was always going to be decided by a part 8 process.
Without wider public support 400 signatures will not be enough to sway the views and gain the support of the unconcerned councillors from the south of the county. Particularly when the ones north of the county haven’t definitely decided which way they will vote.
KCC are about to notify the public of their intentions. Outside of Castletown how many of the public are aware of our intentions to try to stop this fence.

Eddie02

Look this is the way it works.
CRA are now fighting to stop fence going up.Changing Chairman is not going to change that.Taking it out on the "Liason Officer" is not going to change that either unfortunately the damage is done and we all have to come together and fix it.Your right it should never have got this far but it has so build a bridge and get over it.

Councilors stated at the meeting they would follow the residents guidance.So lets get going on showing them what we want.Ring them email them if they live near you knock on their door whatever it takes but basically annoy them so much that they will want it all to go away.

Liasoning with OPW or KCC is over they are waiting for outcome of Part 8.They dont want liasoning anymore and we dont because our wishes are completely the other end of the scale to theirs.

SOS have said the petition is for their own use not the CRA.This petition will be handed the the KCC separately from anything the CRA do.If you feel that strongly about the possibility of the CRA using it you should never have signed it in the first place but be rest assured it is not theirs and never will be .

Subcommitee set up by CRA to stop fence and nothing else will be accepted.They will be sending flyer to every house in the estate explaining what should happen from here.
We all need to rally the councilors.The more people who annoy thyem with their issues over the fencing the better.Yes labour have promised their support as have the independents.
Everyone will need to put in Submissions to show how strongly we all feel about the issue.

LASTLY IT IS TIME THE BLAME GAME STOPPED AND ALL YOUR ENERGY WAS PUT TOWARDS STOPPING THIS FENCING.UNFORTUNATELY THE PAST IS BEHIND US AND WE CANT CHANGE IT BUT TOGETHER WE CAN CHANGE THE FUTURE.

joe cluxton

Eddie02 wrote: »

SOS have said the petition is for their own use not the CRA.This petition will be handed the the KCC separately from anything the CRA do.If you feel that strongly about the possibility of the CRA using it you should never have signed it in the first place but be rest assured it is not theirs and never will be .
QUOTE]

Thank you for clariying that Eddie.

constitution

In my opinion it is not a good idea to annoy somebody when you want to persuade them to vote in a certain way.Making good sound arguments will be more effective. It is not enough just to say "I don't want the fence". If people keep complaining about the OPW for example that will only annoy some councillors who will then vote for the fence and encourage the councillors in the south of the county to do likewise. The councillors in the south will seek the advice of the councillors in the north of the county who are familiar with this area and this issue, that is how it works. So persuade your local FF or FG councillor, not by annoying him but by a good logical submission when the time is right. Work together and not against each other!

Dont fence me in.

Listen to what the man says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ebEEe8VEw&feature=related

Disgruntled Dan

The Labour vote might well be in the bag if we are to believe them.
Perhaps the same can be said of the Independents.
At the moment it is unclear how FF/FG will vote on this.
A number of Kildare county councillors will be contesting the general election and could well be in Dail Eireann before the vote on the part 8 takes place. Presumably they will vacate their council seats and wont be voting on this issue.
A 13 vote majority is far from certain at this stage.

If Constitution is correct :

Constitution : In my opinion it is not a good idea to annoy somebody when you want to persuade them to vote in a certain way.Making good sound arguments will be more effective. It is not enough just to say "I don't want the fence". If people keep complaining about the OPW for example that will only annoy some councillors who will then vote for the fence and encourage the councillors in the south of the county to do likewise.

Then it may be possible that the pro fence people could ensure a yes vote by continuing to antagonise the councillors. Perhaps that has been part of their plan all along. Given some of the recent press coverage you could hardly blame the Councillors for being annoyed and voting yes .
Don't drop your hat as that could be all it takes for some of them to vote yes.

Disgruntled Dan

joe cluxton wrote: »

KCC are about to notify the public of their intentions. Outside of Castletown how many of the public are aware of our intentions to try to stop this fence.

What planet are you on, outside of Castletown how many people actually care.

Eddie02

constitution wrote: »

In my opinion it is not a good idea to annoy somebody when you want to persuade them to vote in a certain way.!

That may be your opinion but from passed experience the more people canvasing the councilors the more annoying it gets for them because it makes them realise what they have done was the wrong decision and then they try and make it all better.I am not for one second suggesting that the same person constantly gets onto them but certainly the more individuals the better and yes to you all if you have the contact emails for all councilors in kildare(i believe someone has put up a link) well email each and everyone of them because although they will take advice from the area councilors they will be aware of the issues before the time comes.

I think it is about time we all stopped picking at what the others have said or posted on sites and put some useful info up, like lets say a good example of how to put in a submission or even list of the different reasons we could enter on the submissions.

Disgruntled Dan

Eddie02 wrote: »

(i believe someone has put up a link)

Here is the link you referred to.

I know it has been posted elsewhere but here is a link for anyone wishing to contact any or all of the 25 KCC councillors.
http://kildare.ie/countycouncil/Corp.../MembersofKCC/

My own response from the councillors whilst encouraging is far from definitive.


The CRA have a lot of experience and knowledge regarding submissions and presumably with the new members on the committee we will see a lot more information on their website. Information which I hope will assist people in making submissions.
The knowledge they have gleaned during the years of negotiation will be of great use to the new members of the committee in formulating their submisson.

The councillors are already aware of the County Council’s agenda and the OPW’s agenda.
They are well aware of the reasons why both organisations want this fence. They have had input from the An Garda Síochána. They are aware of the reasons why the CRA previously supported the fence.
As things stood the fence would have been the preferred solution to a number of problems for all parties.
Apart from objecting to the principle of the fence no concrete proposals on how to solve these problems have been forthcoming.

Submissions will need to be informed and realistic if they are to have any impact on the County Managers report.
Lobbying of the councillors will need to be incisive and well balanced with arguments that will counter the arguments that have already been made in favour of the fence.
Again the information garnered by the CRA during negotiations will be a useful resource.

The CRA have the capability to be a driving force behind a professional and successful campaign like the one organised by the CAA . Or they can run it on the basis of just being an annoying nuisance to the Councillors. The choice is theirs.
I just hope they don’t drive down a blind alley this time.

The advice contained in the publication Making Your Voice Heard by DLRCC gives a lot of tips on how to make submissions and successfully lobby councillors.

To suggest annoying the councillors that you need as allies is nothing short of ridiculous and will only succeed in driving them in the direction of voting yes to the fence.

greengurll

Disgruntled Dan wrote: »

The advice contained in the publication Making Your Voice Heard by DLRCC gives a lot of tips on how to make submissions and successfully lobby councillors.

Can you post a link . I cannot find it on their website.

greengurll

Dont fence me in. wrote: »

Listen to what the man says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ebEEe8VEw&feature=related

I prefer this version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-yvpswc5w0&feature=related

The Raven.

greengurll wrote: »

Can you post a link . I cannot find it on their website.

http://www.dlrcdb.ie/making_a_submission.pdf

The DLRCC is Dun Laoghaire and Rathdown County Council. There are a lot of things on that website that are unnecessary in this case. Read it, by all means, but we will give an easier version of guidelines here that will be more relevant to this particular case.

joe cluxton

Disgruntled Dan wrote: »

To suggest annoying the councillors that you need as allies is nothing short of ridiculous and will only succeed in driving them in the direction of voting yes to the fence.

Not at all Dan the councillors receive all kinds of correspondence. They are well used to being lobbied and won't be easily annoyed.
Any of the councillors that have replied to my emails so far have been appreciative of them and are open to receiving correspondance on the issues involved. They have previously stated that they wish to hear from anyone who is concerned. Whether you want the fence or not your councillors want to know.

greengurll

Thanks Raven. The guidelines seem simple enough. The steps are easy to follow. We're going to put together an email and send it to all the councillors.
We are going on an extended Christmas holiday and may not be here to send in a submission. Hopefully KCC will be snowed under with submissions lol.

Eddie02

Wohoo Now we are getting somewhere.The link posted by Raven explains in the most simple way how to make a submission.This is a great link fair play Raven.Now step 2 is does anyone know is it best to put in a group submission getting all resident to sign it professionally done,is it best to get individual ones done, or is it best to do both.

joe cluxton

Both will probably happen. Some people may not wish to send in a submission themselves and getting their signatures is probably the only way you will get them involved.
Others will always have a preference for making their own submissions.


A group submission does not necessarily need the entire group to sign it.
One signature of an appointed member of the group will suffice.
There are a number of groups that have been actively involved in this issue CRA, CAG etc.
These groups combined with SOS must surely represent most of the residents of Castletown.
People outside of Castletown use the amenity and it would not be that difficult to get their signatures.
They have willingly supported other initiatives that were started within the estate.
1000 signatures and indeed multiples of that figure could be easily obtained.

Individual submissions are also a very important part of the process.
Getting individuals to put a submission together and send it in can be a challenge.
The recent EGM was an inspiration and would have been an opportunity to launch a campaign.
A campaign that would ensure people become involved and participate in the decision making process.
With Christmas approaching, the weather problems, the current political and financial situation,
the part 8 may already be slipping down on people’s agendas.
The CRA website, the flyers that were previously mentioned, local media, social networking could all be
effectively used to get individuals actively involved.


The quality of the submissions is as important (probably more important) than the quantity. If the proper guidelines are not adhered to when making a submission it will be ignored.
The DOEHLG recommends seeking legal advice on issues not strictly related to planning as “these can only be dealt with under civil law rather than planning law.” Submissions based on such issues will be ignored.
This is vitally important because people who are in favour of the fence will send in submissions supporting KCC’s proposal.

The Raven.

Eddie02 wrote: »

Wohoo Now we are getting somewhere.The link posted by Raven explains in the most simple way how to make a submission.This is a great link fair play Raven.Now step 2 is does anyone know is it best to put in a group submission getting all resident to sign it professionally done,is it best to get individual ones done, or is it best to do both.

Ideally, it would be better if residents put in individually written submissions but, going on past experience, a lot of people (for various reasons), prefer to just sign a well written submission; not one 'group submission', but on separate submission sheets of paper. So, it is best to do both.

Dont fence me in.

The Raven. wrote: »

Ideally, it would be better if residents put in individually written submissions but, going on past experience, a lot of people (for various reasons), prefer to just sign a well written submission; not one 'group submission', but on separate submission sheets of paper. So, it is best to do both.

Will both the CRA and SOS be making submissions and can we sign both of
them.
Have KCC given any dates as this is not the most ideal time of the year to be dealing with this.

Seconds Away

Yes you can sign both of them.
I would expect that KCC will launch the public consultation around mid-December.
Perhaps by then some measure of sanity will have returned to the debate.
Hopefully the season of goodwill might encourage the troops to vacate the trenches (of their entrenched thinking) and reach across the division, caused by the proposed fence, to embrace an all encompassing solution.

There is no fence yet and look at the effect that the very idea of a fence has had.
This us and them myth and mentality needs to be exploded.
By all means stop “them” from building a fence on “our” land. But what are “we” going to do with “our” land.
Who will be responsible for cleaning it and maintaining it?
Who will ensure that as an amenity it will be safe and accessible to all who wish to avail of it?



"Of course, this neighbourly breakdown is not only observable in the United States, as Patricia Crowe (1978) showed in "Good Fences Make Good Neighbours: Social Networks at Three Levels of Urbanization in Tirol, Austria". In "Good Fences and Good Neighbours: John Locke's Positive Doctrine of Toleration," Anthony Wilhelm shows convincingly that the seventeenth-century English philosopher John Locke had it right when he argued for a civil society, "for the limitations on human understanding in the world require the duty of toleration and good neighbourliness to overcome the insidious effects of self-love in human affairs" (Wilhelm 1999, 158). For this a commitment to the social virtues is necessary, "since fences that secure rights are necessary but not sufficient to foster the neighbourliness that invigorates a good community" (Wilhelm 1999, 145). In other words, people will most likely never be able to live without some fences, but they should at least build them together and in agreement on both sides!"</SPAN>

greengurll

Hopefully with the new subcommittee our green open space will be cared for as it should be.

The Raven.

greengurll wrote: »

Hopefully with the new subcommittee our green open space will be cared for as it should be.

The subcommittee will have to wait and see what transpires in relation to the fence. However, I'm sure that suggestions regarding the care and maintenance of our green open space would be welcome. Do you have any ideas on this?

w@ll3gurl

Just catching up on this thread now & have a lot more to read, but god, saw the photos on page 1 of what they want to fence off, I can understand why people are upset about it all...anyway, I'll read on, get fully up to speed and lend an objection to KCC & whoever else needs a stern telling off!

My question will probably be answered when I get to end of thread, but is there a petition? Don't write back if this has already been answered.

The Raven.

Fianna Fáil county councillor [Paul Kelly] from Kildare has been appointed to the District Court by the government.
...
The announcement was made this morning.
...
Kelly has confirmed that he will be resigning from the party and the county council to take up his new position.

http://newswhip.ie/national-2/politics/fianna-fail-councillor-appointed-to-the-district-court

Paul Kelly was one of the local area councillors who voted in favour of the launch of the Part 8 process to erect the fence.

That means one less Fianna Fail councillor to lobby!

Seconds Away

The Raven. wrote: »

The subcommittee will have to wait and see what transpires in relation to the fence. However, I'm sure that suggestions regarding the care and maintenance of our green open space would be welcome. Do you have any ideas on this?

They will be more than welcome . They will be absolutely vital. If the campaign to keep this amenity is successful it will need to be followed through. The council haven't done anythig to enhance or even maintain this amenity and this is is unlikely to change given the lack of resources.
The open space cannot be left to turn into a wilderness overun by anti-social elements. Hopefully the passion with which the the CRA are fighting to keep the Woods open can be channelled into a positive force to preserve the amenity. With the level of support expressed for the iniative to stop the fence, caring for and maintaining the Woods should be an achievable goal.