why no reloading in south.

rock garden

Evening all .Have always been curious to know the reason why reloading is banned in south.

Vegeta

Because gun powder is classed as an explosive and they wont give us explosive licenses which is very frustrating

Well especially when you consider we all have gun powder anyway in loaded rounds. Makes no sense really

It's like saying you cant have Coca Cola in a glass, only from the bottle.

Vegeta

The bigger problem is that history has shown us that going to court for this stuff is a bad idea as the DoJ will just change the law to suit them. Have to wait on the outcome of a pilot scheme

rock garden

yes thought it was something along them lines.But surely that its permited here in the north should help your case. Has the issue ever been forced in the courts does anyone know.

Vegeta

rock garden wrote: »

yes thought it was something along them lines.But surely that its permited here in the north should help your case. Has the issue ever been forced in the courts does anyone know.

No I don't think so

I think it would a terrible idea too as someone in the Department may get sore if they last and low and behold in the next draft of the Criminal Justice Bill it would be outlawed.

I cant recall the exact section of the legislation (I have no head for that actually can never remember the Acts) but someone may pop in with it

Fingers crossed that in the near future the powers that be see reloading for what it is and give it the green light

rock garden

Good luck. ps just a word of warning when you do get the green light reloading can become very time consuming and addictive.

tac foley

Vegeta wrote: »

Because gun powder is classed as an explosive and they wont give us explosive licenses which is very frustrating

Well especially when you consider we all have gun powder anyway in loaded rounds. Makes no sense really

It's like saying you cant have Coca Cola in a glass, only from the bottle.

Sir - you don't have gunpowder [black powder] in your cartridges, you have nitro-cellulose single or double-based propellant.

Gun powder - black powder - IS an explosive substance.

You have gun powder [black powder] in your freely available fireworks.

In the real world out here you don't need an explosives licence for propellant as it is NOT an explosive. It is freely available to anybody with a firearms licence and an ounce of common sense with regard to its safe storage.

tac

tac foley

rock garden wrote: »

yes thought it was something along them lines.But surely that its permited here in the north should help your case. Has the issue ever been forced in the courts does anyone know.

It is permitted 'in the north' because the north is part of the United Kingdom where almost everybody who shoots also reloads without let or hindrance and without any extra licence.

EXCEPT for gun powder/black powder, which is an explosive here, too.

After all, the 1875 Explosives Act in the Republic was the very same as the 1875 Explosives Act on mainland UK.

Many things are taken for granted in the north that are totally unheard of in the south, and vice versa.

tac

rock garden

tac foley wrote: »

It is permitted 'in the north' because the north is part of the United Kingdom where almost everybody who shoots also reloads without let or hindrance and without any extra licence.

EXCEPT for gun powder/black powder, which is an explosive here, too.

After all, the 1875 Explosives Act in the Republic was the very same as the 1875 Explosives Act on mainland UK.

Many things are taken for granted in the north that are totally unheard of in the south, and vice versa.

tac

Yes but here in northern ireland you require a powder form under the explosives act. As far as i know in mainland uk smokeless powder just goes on your FAC.

ssl

Does anyone have any details on this pilot? When it started, when it'll be completed, how many persons involved, etc?

fish slapped

tac foley wrote: »

You have gun powder [black powder] in your freely available fireworks.



tac

As far as I'm aware their not freely available but also have to be licenced!!!:mad:

johngalway

fish slapped wrote: »

As far as I'm aware their not freely available but also have to be licenced!!!:mad:

They're - like a lot of things in this Banana Republic - illegally freely available. Just spend some time in the evening in any large town or city this time of year, or most villages nearer Halloween.

Wheeeeeeeeee bang crack boom whoosh....

Maam Cross October Fair used to be a great place for them being sold out of the back of *ahem* vans of a certain model/brand and recent vintage until there was a large raid one year.

Not before time, damn things drive the dogs demented.

tac foley

rock garden wrote: »

Yes but here in northern ireland you require a powder form under the explosives act. As far as i know in mainland uk smokeless powder just goes on your FAC.

Not so, Sir. I live in east anglia, and all you need to buy smokeless propellant here in mainland UK is to SHOW that you have an FAC to buy primers and propellant.

Nothing is actually entered on your FAC.

tac

tac foley

ssl wrote: »

Does anyone have any details on this pilot? When it started, when it'll be completed, how many persons involved, etc?

Ah, after doing some asking around it seems that unless you are a member of the elite Creedmoor Cup rifle team it does not apply to you.

Needless to say, everybody else shooting in the competition will have made their own ammunition.

There are, I'm told, about forty-one potential team members who will be specially licensed to carry out reloading under strict supervision and control.

Dunno where tho'.

So, 41 down, and 249,959 to go - it's a start, eh?

tac

tac foley

fish slapped wrote: »

As far as I'm aware their not freely available but also have to be licenced!!!:mad:

I'm pretty certain that the folks who were throwing them at ME weren't licensed.

Ah, silly me, THAT was in the north...... :=)

tac

It wasn't me!

tac foley wrote: »

Ah, after doing some asking around it seems that unless you are a member of the elite Creedmoor Cup rifle team it does not apply to you.

Needless to say, everybody else shooting in the competition will have made their own ammunition.

There are, I'm told, about forty-one potential team members who will be specially licensed to carry out reloading under strict supervision and control.

Dunno where tho'.

So, 41 down, and 249,959 to go - it's a start, eh?

tac

It's an onsite reloading shed at MNSCI as I understand it. Not the most sensible system, but since when has that been the issue? It really is bafflingly strange, the fear of it among the powers that be. Maybe they think the troubles was a series of badly misreported reloading accidents?

rrpc

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's an onsite reloading shed at MNSCI as I understand it. Not the most sensible system, but since when has that been the issue? It really is bafflingly strange, the fear of it among the powers that be. Maybe they think the troubles was a series of badly misreported reloading accidents?

It's not quite as simple as this. Reloading can be done provided you have the correct paperwork which currently (and in the past) required the equivalent of a firearms dealers licence. The 2006 act had a section inserted allowing reloading, but this was never commenced and it was felt that its proper home was in the explosives act.

The reasons for this are many and varied, but essentially there are requirements in the explosives act for possession of propellants and powders that are not present in the firearms act and so it's more efficient to deal with these in that act rather than to try and rewrite the firearms act.

The pilot project was instigated to assess how reloading could be done safely in this country (and please, no rants on how safe it is - you'd be pushing an open door). Should everything work out fine, there's no reason to suggest that it won't be extended to everyone else.

There's a lot of muttering behind hands about Pythonesque "gaoler's pets" getting to reload when no-one else can, but since the Creedmore would involve international competitors who'd expect to be able to reload (and in fact couldn't compete without it) there couldn't really have been a better choice that would put everyone in the same place at the same time and fulfil a pressing need.

That's my understanding, but because it's a balanced view with no hidden agendas, it'll be dismissed out of hand of course :rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

rrpc wrote: »

It's not quite as simple as this. Reloading can be done provided you have the correct paperwork which currently (and in the past) required the equivalent of a firearms dealers licence. The 2006 act had a section inserted allowing reloading, but this was never commenced and it was felt that its proper home was in the explosives act.

The reasons for this are many and varied, but essentially there are requirements in the explosives act for possession of propellants and powders that are not present in the firearms act and so it's more efficient to deal with these in that act rather than to try and rewrite the firearms act.

The pilot project was instigated to assess how reloading could be done safely in this country (and please, no rants on how safe it is - you'd be pushing an open door). Should everything work out fine, there's no reason to suggest that it won't be extended to everyone else.

There's a lot of muttering behind hands about Pythonesque "gaoler's pets" getting to reload when no-one else can, but since the Creedmore would involve international competitors who'd expect to be able to reload (and in fact couldn't compete without it) there couldn't really have been a better choice that would put everyone in the same place at the same time and fulfil a pressing need.

That's my understanding, but because it's a balanced view with no hidden agendas, it'll be dismissed out of hand of course :rolleyes:

Oh, make no mistake, I agree fully, and I find the legislative process to date extremely interesting. It's hilarious that the most current act relating to it specifically deals with gunpowder (black powder), because nitro propellants just weren't on the scene yet when it was written. In fact, it's dealing with something entirely other than what we would propose to deal with, due to misunderstanding. That's the amusing irony of it for me.

I do hope it becomes an automatic entitlement accompanying an FAC, as it is in the UK. Certainly for someone in my position, as a student with limited time and more limited funds, it can be hard to get around the country to find and try the limited amount of available factory ammunition and harder to pay for it. I don't know how many times I've gone to get ammo, only to pick up the last box on the shelf, and the shop doesn't get it in again. If I could save my brass and run up forty or fifty rounds for the weekend on a friday night after work, buying bullets in bulk online and picking up a few kilos of powder and a few thousand primers at a time in person, I'd never lack for supply, and the ammunition would be better quality too.

tac foley

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I do hope it becomes an automatic entitlement accompanying an FAC, as it is in the UK....I'd never lack for supply, and the ammunition would be better quality too.

First comment - Please add, everywhere else, too.

Second comment - That's why the RoI should join the other ca.100,000,000 of us who reload as a matter of course, and think nothing special about it. It's not rocket science, in fact, it's a bit like cooking - care and attention to detail is needed.

Dealers would have to keep a large stock of consumables to keep you all satisfied - as with fishing, gadgetry rules. They would certainly see an increase in sales for all kinds of items related to reloading.

tac

It wasn't me!

tac foley wrote: »

First comment - Please add, everywhere else, too.

Second comment - That's why the RoI should join the other ca.100,000,000 of us who reload as a matter of course, and think nothing special about it. It's not rocket science, in fact, it's a bit like cooking - care and attention to detail is needed.

Dealers would have to keep a large stock of consumables to keep you all satisfied - as with fishing, gadgetry rules. They would certainly see an increase in sales for all kinds of items related to reloading.

tac

To be honest, it's essentially impossible to shoot centrefire rifles enough to get properly excellent with them if you're constrained by the availability and price of factory ammunition, especially if you don't shoot a .308 or a .223. It also limits you in terms of the interesting calibres you could otherwise shoot. Out of curiosity tac, I know you shoot a .25-06, so roughly what is it costing you to run up a round for it. I know it's going to gut me, but I'd like to compare it to the price for factory ammunition here.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

So, 41 down, and 249,959 to go - it's a start, eh?

Yes, tac, that's what it is. As explained by PM. Yes, in other countries this would seem silly. But we don't live in other countries, we have to live in this one (or emigrate) and until this point, reloading was in effect banned completely; so frankly, if the choices are to either jump through this hoop to join everyone else in reloading; or to bitch and moan about things and never do anything to fix it; I know which of the two options we should do. And happily, so do others and we're doing so.

tac foley

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Out of curiosity tac, I know you shoot a .25-06, so roughly what is it costing you to run up a round for it. I know it's going to gut me, but I'd like to compare it to the price for factory ammunition here.

Well, it's a mite unfair since I reload the stuff in the USA to shoot there.

I use the 117gr Hornady spire point over 52.5gr of Reloader 22 and CCI primers. I get about 3150fps out of that combination from a 26" barrel and it shoots very well to the limit of my old scope and even older eyeball.

Bullets cost me about $22.50 a hundred from our local friendly store [Hi there, Ken] and powder was bought in a eight or ten pound tub a couple of years' back in a sale for $100 [no sales tax in Oregon, either]. I'm advised that the bullets have gone up, like everything else, but I bought a thousand of them too.

In consumables alone, then, I'll be getting about 1300 or so loads out of the powder = 7.5c each load

Bullet = 2.25c

Primer = 3c [we buy them in ten thousands], so that's a WAG.

Total so far = ca. 12.75c per shot + the cost of the cartridge case [four times re-used so far]

Cartridge cases were about $45 a hundred, so add 4.5c.

Can't count the reloading gear, as two of us use it to reload fourteen different calibres and it's all pretty old.

YOU do the math - $ to euro is roughly one to one right now, I think. So round it up to eu20 a hundred. For ammunition that is made exactly for MY rifle.

And no, it is NOT fair to compare costs. We live in the USA and Canada as much as we can, and buy most things we ever need, like clothes and stuff, over there. My other hobby is live-steam trains in the backyard - another time-consuming and potentially [no, make that genuinely] expensive hobby - most of that I build myself. But when I buy built, it all comes from the USA.

tac

It wasn't me!

So even allowing for the rip-off Ireland factor, we're probably talking about maybe €40-45 a hundred, rather than a bare minimum of probably €125 for anything similar. Certainly the cheapest I've been able to get was Federal Powershok (which didn't shoot particularly well for me, certainly not well enough to buy more or to justify the cost) while typical fare I like costs a bare minimum of €35 a box and often €40-45, so the same price for twenty as for a hundred handloads, which will almost certainly shoot better. I've had great results with the 117gr Sierra Gameking load from Federal, but it's a premium load, costing €40ish a box. If I could tune it myself (and stealing costs from Midway UK), I could use the following:

Nosler brass at £57.49 for fifty
117gr Sierra Gameking at £27.61 for a hundred
CCI Large Rifle Primers at £163.30 for five thousand.

I'm advised that it would cost about £25 or thereabouts for a pound of powder, which I could expect to give me perhaps 125 loads, so the costs on that basis to reload a hundred rounds, which will end up better than the factory fodder, and assuming brass life of ten loads, ends up as follows:

Factory loading at €40/20 - €200
Handloads - £62.37 or €70.10

Now, that's with top-end components and high prices. For running up practice loads you could do it much cheaper if you wanted to, even just by using Remington or Winchester brass and the same bullets, and of course you could get both bullets and brass cheaper in bigger quantities. That's a scary difference, and would make all the difference to how much shooting people would do. Personally, since I'd have the components to hand and wouldn't have to go looking for ammo, I'd shoot more often, maybe twenty or thirty rounds a week, just to keep the skillset up.

EDIT: Actually, whatever about bringing down the cost of shooting typical rounds, what I'd be most interested in is the ability to shoot rounds which either are impossible to find factory fodder for or for which it's prohibitively expensive. If you could shoot a 9.3x62 or a .375H&H or similar for a euro or one-fifty a pop rather than three to five euro for cheap factory stuff, it'd be much easier to use the calibres you wanted, rather than compromising and just getting something that's available.

shedd7

It wasn't me! wrote: »

So even allowing for the rip-off Ireland factor, we're probably talking about maybe €40-45 a hundred, rather than a bare minimum of probably €125 for anything similar. Certainly the cheapest I've been able to get was Federal Powershok (which didn't shoot particularly well for me, certainly not well enough to buy more or to justify the cost) while typical fare I like costs a bare minimum of €35 a box and often €40-45, so the same price for twenty as for a hundred handloads, which will almost certainly shoot better. I've had great results with the 117gr Sierra Gameking load from Federal, but it's a premium load, costing €40ish a box. If I could tune it myself (and stealing costs from Midway UK), I could use the following:

Nosler brass at £57.49 for fifty
117gr Sierra Gameking at £27.61 for a hundred
CCI Large Rifle Primers at £163.30 for five thousand.

I'm advised that it would cost about £25 or thereabouts for a pound of powder, which I could expect to give me perhaps 125 loads, so the costs on that basis to reload a hundred rounds, which will end up better than the factory fodder, and assuming brass life of ten loads, ends up as follows:

Factory loading at €40/20 - €200
Handloads - £62.37 or €70.10

Now, that's with top-end components and high prices. For running up practice loads you could do it much cheaper if you wanted to, even just by using Remington or Winchester brass and the same bullets, and of course you could get both bullets and brass cheaper in bigger quantities. That's a scary difference, and would make all the difference to how much shooting people would do. Personally, since I'd have the components to hand and wouldn't have to go looking for ammo, I'd shoot more often, maybe twenty or thirty rounds a week, just to keep the skillset up.

EDIT: Actually, whatever about bringing down the cost of shooting typical rounds, what I'd be most interested in is the ability to shoot rounds which either are impossible to find factory fodder for or for which it's prohibitively expensive. If you could shoot a 9.3x62 or a .375H&H or similar for a euro or one-fifty a pop rather than three to five euro for cheap factory stuff, it'd be much easier to use the calibres you wanted, rather than compromising and just getting something that's available.

Love to know where you can get powder in the UK for £25 a pound,have friends who would love to buy at that price as it hasn't been £25 for a long,long time. Try £40+ and you might be closer to the mark,depending on make and type.

It wasn't me!

shedd7 wrote: »

Love to know where you can get powder in the UK for £25 a pound,have friends who would love to buy at that price as it hasn't been £25 for a long,long time. Try £40+ and you might be closer to the mark,depending on make and type.

Fair enough, was just quoting what I was told. So let's assume it's £40, that brings the cost per hundred up by a small amount, still way on the right side of factory ammo!

rock garden

couple of months ago h varget was £ 48 for 1lb . Powder. Heads and primers all have to be bought from dealer here as none can be shipped direct from uk.

cavan shooter

Sorry lads the short answer stems from the fact we have a Nanny state that doesn't trust its people.

Guns are dangerous and can kill
Knives are too, so we ban or restrict and then threaten to prosecute a guy with a swiss army knife in his car which was observed at a insurance checkpoint.

Propellants can be used for other acts other than hand loading
and so can fireworks so we ban, but ignore the ilegle use of fireworks.

certain fertilizers cannot be purchased because certain people use them for things other than growing crops.

We are very heavily policed, yet the policing doesn't seem to work, so the state goes for the easy targets all the time.

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's an onsite reloading shed ...................

Its a bit more than a shed. Have a look next time you're up.

It wasn't me!

ezridax wrote: »

Its a bit more than a shed. Have a look next time you're up.

I'll expect the grand tour.

Cass

Gladly.

CJhaughey

cavan shooter wrote: »

Sorry lads the short answer stems from the fact we have a Nanny state that doesn't trust its people.

But the obvious answer to that is that you are licensed to possess and use a firearm for a particular calibre, what is the difference between that and being able to reload your own ammo for that calibre?

Remember to ask your local politico the question why is Ireland unique in the whole of the EU in not allowing shooters to reload?
What makes Irish shooters any less trustworthy than their EU counterparts?

declan1980

CJhaughey wrote: »

But the obvious answer to that is that you are licensed to possess and use a firearm for a particular calibre, what is the difference between that and being able to reload your own ammo for that calibre?

i think the difference is that the ptb would have no record of how many rounds you posess, or have the potential to make if you were reloading

CJhaughey

declan1980 wrote: »

i think the difference is that the ptb would have no record of how many rounds you posess, or have the potential to make if you were reloading

How do they know how many you possess now?

tac foley

Here in UK, it is axiomatic that if you are permitted to have, say, 500 rounds of .308Win, that you neither buy nor make more than that.

THAT is why there ARE limits here.

To exceed that amount is to break the law.

My query to you is a simple one - bearing in mind that very few of you actually engage in prolonged bouts of shooting, as in a rifle match with ten sighters and thirty to count, why would you want to break the law? Most posters here seem to buy in boxes of twenty at a time, or have I got it all wrong?

Here in UK I only reload as much as I need to - unless we have a guest day at our club, when lots of people will 'have a go' of our guns, I rarely have more than fifty reloads ready to shoot.

Over in the USA things are a whole lot different, and we buy military surplus ammunition at the best prices on the day. We all scour the websites for good prices, and having found them, buy a goodly LOT of ammo at a time.

Our last big buy was 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x54 and 7.62x51 - around five thousand of each in a bulk deal. Right now there seems to be a bit of a shortage of GP11 [Swiss 7.5x55], but I'm the only one in my group who shoots it anyhow, so there is not much pressure to buy. If one of us finds a good price, he'll get it for me - you see, in the USA you only have to produce two pieces of plastic to buy ammunition.

1. State driving licence.

2. MasterCard.

Done.

tac

tac foley

CJhaughey wrote: »

How do they know how many you possess now?

I'd be guessing here, since I don't actually know, that ammunition sales are not entered on your licence in the RoI?

Here in UK ALL ammunition sales are not only face-to-face, but are entered on the appropriate part of your gun licence by the dealer.

Even buying ammunition off a friend, who for some reason is giving up that particular calibre and has ammunition left, has to be entered as a sale, even if he gives it to you.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

I'd be guessing here, since I don't actually know, that ammunition sales are not entered on your licence in the RoI?

No, they're legally required to be tracked by the RFD's paperwork.

Thing is, that's only ammo in. I know of no jurisdiction where ammo out is recorded on your licence or in the RFD's paperwork.

If I go into an RFD today and buy a thousand rounds of .22 and then go in next week for the same amount, you could be fairly sure I was over my limit; but if someone who was training hard for an ISSF match did the same thing, they might well never exceed that limit. But from the outside, noone can tell without inspecting the contents of our ammo safes or engaging in a degree of surveillance that would probably be prohibited by law and definitely would be prohibited by cost.

Grizzly 45

CJhaughey wrote: »

Remember to ask your local politico the question why is Ireland unique in the whole of the EU in not allowing shooters to reload?
What makes Irish shooters any less trustworthy than their EU counterparts?

And watch them do a "Jackie Gleeson" impersanation:rolleyes:.."Hammmmnahamana!!I'll get back to you on that one"[at the next election]

Must say the reloading facitilies are impressive at Midlands.On first seeing them I thought we were going to store nukes up there,or are expecting a serious airstrike on the range!:eek: Just hope that whenthis is sucessful some bright spark in the dept doesnt decide that this level of security is going to be needed in minature off everyone who wants to reload a few shotgun shells.:eek:

tac foley

I do all MY reloading in my little 8x6 shed at the end of my backyard.

I also cast my own bullets for my BP shooting, and build my trains there too.

My propellant is also stored there in suitable containers.

There isn't a ten-foot thick concrete blast wall in sight anywhere.

Most folks I know over here do it in the kitchen with the equipment clamped on to a Work-Mate. I have one as well, and a spare set of relaoding gear that I can put in the back of my station wagon to take on an away shoot if necessary.

Over in the US we have nice big shop - about 40 by 20 - that we use for trains, woodwork, metalwork and reloading.

tac

newby.204

tac foley wrote: »

I do all MY reloading in my little 8x6 shed at the end of my backyard.

I also cast my own bullets for my BP shooting, and build my trains there too.

My propellant is also stored there in suitable containers.

There isn't a ten-foot thick concrete blast wall in sight anywhere.

Most folks I know over here do it in the kitchen with the equipment clamped on to a Work-Mate. I have one as well, and a spare set of relaoding gear that I can put in the back of my station wagon to take on an away shoot if necessary.

Over in the US we have nice big shop - about 40 by 20 - that we use for trains, woodwork, metalwork and reloading.

tac

Yes but this is ireland, and the countries a joke, imo i dont honestly see reloading being extended to every shooter with a licence, they will probably come up with some over the top prohibitively expensive scheme that wont allow everyone to do it, just enough that keeps a minority happy because they got what they wanted for their sport.

Sparks

newby.204 wrote: »

just enough that keeps a minority happy because they got what they wanted for their sport.

As was pointed out on the meeting last sunday, this minority are the only ones who stood up and said "we want this". Des Crofton told the DoJ that the hunters didn't want it, the ISSF stuff tends to be all factory loads anyway, and farmers don't reload for their single-barrel baikals by the door; so only the F-class lads were left, and they've pushed for this for years, put thousands of their own money into it, and bluntly newby, you ought to know what the heck you're dissing before digging into it, y'know?
If we do get reloading back, everyone is going to owe the Midlands lads a very large thank-you; somehow, I can't see them getting much more than an eff-you given what some are wrongly saying these days.

Tackleberrywho

IF reloading comes in, Hunters alike will be able to have there chosen ammo to suit their rifle.

How many lads are shooting .223 .308 .22lr pistols today as a result of the same minority.......
A big thank you to the minority!

newby.204

Sparks wrote: »

As was pointed out on the meeting last sunday, this minority are the only ones who stood up and said "we want this". Des Crofton told the DoJ that the hunters didn't want it, the ISSF stuff tends to be all factory loads anyway, and farmers don't reload for their single-barrel baikals by the door; so only the F-class lads were left, and they've pushed for this for years, put thousands of their own money into it, and bluntly newby, you ought to know what the heck you're dissing before digging into it, y'know?
If we do get reloading back, everyone is going to owe the Midlands lads a very large thank-you; somehow, I can't see them getting much more than an eff-you given what some are wrongly saying these days.

I have never met Mr Crofton, nor have i been to the midlands, I have never been asked do i want to handload, why is it only target shooters want above average ammunition at a fraction of the cost of factory ammunition? No wait i reckon everyone with a wallet and a calculator who could be bothered to do it would probably like to handload, but thats just my opinion.....

And bluntly sparks anyone who shoots in Ireland puts their own money into it, probably into the thousands over their life, and just because their not in a target shooting association/club, doesnt mean they dont want to handload, also if it came in for eveyrone id gladly thank the people who pushed it for years, just because they pushed it for years though doesnt mean everyone doesnt deserve to do it

Sparks

newby.204 wrote: »

I have never met Mr Crofton, nor have i been to the midlands, I have never been asked do i want to handload, why is it only target shooters want above average ammunition at a fraction of the cost of factory ammunition? No wait i reckon everyone with a wallet and a calculator who could be bothered to do it would probably like to handload, but thats just my opinion.....

That would have been my opinion as well; but the only group that have been chasing this have been the midlands lads.

And bluntly sparks anyone who shoots in Ireland puts their own money into it

No, they don't, not like this. We put our money into our own shooting, our own range fees, our own ammo costs, and so on. What I'm saying is that these lads have put all that in and then more to go chasing after reloading; and granted, they need it themselves, but it'll benefit everyone else as well, and they're the only ones who went after it.

just because they pushed it for years though doesnt mean everyone doesnt deserve to do it

Noone said that either; what I said was that it's a bit rubbish to go saying that some small minority are getting it when they're the only ones who've gone for it.

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

Des Crofton told the DoJ that the hunters didn't want it

WHAT? :eek:

I am horrified :mad:

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

As was pointed out on the meeting last sunday, this minority are the only ones who stood up and said "we want this". Des Crofton told the DoJ that the hunters didn't want it, the ISSF stuff tends to be all factory loads anyway, and farmers don't reload for their single-barrel baikals by the door; so only the F-class lads were left, and they've pushed for this for years, put thousands of their own money into it, and bluntly newby, you ought to know what the heck you're dissing before digging into it, y'know?
If we do get reloading back, everyone is going to owe the Midlands lads a very large thank-you; somehow, I can't see them getting much more than an eff-you given what some are wrongly saying these days.

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Sparks when and where did D Crofton say (quote Sparks - Des Crofton told the DoJ that the hunters didn't want it. I find this difficult to understand when the NARGC cover the insurance for the Leinster branch of the Irish Deer Society.


At the meeting in Mullingar I was the only one that asked the question about reloading and the answer I got from the range inspector was that there had been only one submission made, he did not say who had made it.

I on behalf of VCRAI and DTSC made a submission the next day , I received an e-mail from the range inspector acknowledging receipt of same and have heard nothing since.

Why wasn't the offer of a pilot scheme given to all range operators.

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks when and where did D Crofton say (quote Sparks - Des Crofton told the DoJ that the hunters didn't want it.

Going back over the recordings, it was said by Des at a full FCP meeting that he had no interest in it nor need for it. It wasn't specified which one, but I'm sure Joe has a record of it. It was repeated again at a shooters panel (that's all the shooting bodies on the FCP) meeting in Leixlip.

I find this difficult to understand when the NARGC cover the insurance for the Leinster branch of the Irish Deer Society.

I can't give you an answer there Sikamick, I don't know why it was said.

At the meeting in Mullingar I was the only one that asked the question about reloading

Having sat longside Traumadoc in Mullingar while he asked about it, I think maybe you've forgotten a question or two or you weren't at all of the Q&A sessions Sikamick. There was one question on the Saturday and on the sunday:

Sparks wrote: »

Reloading was discussed at length, with good input from two boards.ie people who I'll let decloak themselves if they so wish There is some resistance here - however there is also dialog. The DoJ's position has been given in a document to the FCP to work with, and they will be working with it.

That was in workshop three; there might have been other mentions in workshops one and two that I missed.

Why wasn't the offer of a pilot scheme given to all range operators

Because not one of them asked for it. Again, this came up on Sunday. Several range operators and the NASRPC were (and I'm paraphrasing here) asking why they'd not been given a pilot scheme; they were directly asked if they'd asked for such a scheme; every last one said no, they hadn't. In short, despite the government being opposed to the notion, they expected the government to give them a pilot scheme.
The midlands, on the other hand, actively pursued it for three years, built the massively over-engineered facility to reassure the DoJ about safety, had an ideal event hand to use as a test case, and went for it. And got it. And hopefully, we'll all end up with reloading afterwards as an end result.

Sikamick

Sorry Sparks I wasn't at that meeting, this is the one where I raised the question on reloading, 6th Feb 2009.


Qoute[Sparks]
The first question was when the SIs would be enacted. GB said that both are in late draft stage, with the clubs SI closer to the end line - it's expected it will be signed at the end of March, so last comments had to be in by about next Friday (comments were limited though, as the scope of the clubs SI is bound by section 33 of the CJA2006). The Ranges SI will follow later on.

It was asked if restricted firearms could be authorised as club firearms; no real consensus was reached, though the point was strongly made that if they couldn't be, noone could ever be safely trained on them using a club gun (the training licence was mentioned here, but it's not a satisfactory solution obviously). No consensus was reached though, because it was pointed out by one of the FCP members that the part of the SI talking about club guns and the restricted list is about storage on the range only, not use.

Reloading was asked about, whether the Misc bill would cope with it. JG replied that Section 40 of the CJA2006 (that's the bit that puts in section 10A in the firearms act, allowing reloading) won't in fact be implemented, it will actually be revoked and reloading will be handled under a rewrite of the Explosives Act, probably in April or May. This raised an eyebrow, prompting the point that propellant is not an explosive. JG pointed out that he's not just the Firearms Range Inspector, but also the government inspector of explosives, and that propellant is defined legally as an explosive even though it technically isn't one (this is like the definition of "assault rifle" in the restricted list not being our definition of one). He said that as it was legally an explosive, it had to be looked after in the explosives act, which is being rewritten and will hopefully be out later this year.

John also said that submissions on reloading had been sought since last year, and so far only one had been sent in. He made the point that it's not too late, they'll accept submissions from anyone. Again, speaking personally, guys, what the ****? How can everyone be complaining about the stupid rules on reloading, but only one person actually sent anything in? Gah!

The next question was on monitored alarms and whether or not they're really the best option for security - the response from the FPU was that while there are those who disagree, they had to pick a standard for everyone and the consensus was that monitored alarms were the best general option.

The final question wasn't; it was a statement of thanks to the FCP and FPU and DoJ and CAI for organising the day; but for the FPU/DoJ people to go back to the Minister and Commissioner and remind them that not only were we safe and not a security concern, but also of how much the shooting industry contributes to the exchequer through licence fees, taxes of various kinds and so forth.

And that finally did conclude the seminar, we all said our goodbyes, collected documents and headed home. It wasn't quite as relaxed as the first FCP conference last year, but I guess that was to be expected with all the recent problems we've had with the Minister and the media and so on. I still think the FCP's the best shot we have here though; keeping folks talking is the only way to stop something more damaging from happening.

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http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055473983&highlight=Clubs+Range+Seminar

Sikamick

Sparks

Ah, right Sika, we're thinking of different meetings so.