Robert Jordan - Wheel of Time - Towers of Midnight [SPOILERS]

namelessguy

Cosmic Penguin wrote: »

The_Minister wrote: »

I completely missed the bit about

who killed Asmodeon

Where was it?

It was mentioned in the book - Moridin (I think) spoke to Graendal about being responsible for the deaths of 3 chosen (Aran'gar, Graendal and ???) By method of elimination, it was Asmo

You mean Mesaana instead of Graenal right?

I liked it though the editing was a bit bad

particularly where Tam al'Thor was concerned.

Really enjoyed it and it had some of my favourite scenes from the entire series and it really set up the final (unless it's split again :mad:) book quite well. To be honest I hope the Last Battle tm is finished with by mid point as I'd like BS to see what all the characters will do post Last Battle.

OwaynOTT

how can anyone read this thread with all the spoiler bits censored. Its like catch 22!

namelessguy

Well it's a discussion page on the latest book so it's assumed you've read the book if you want to discuss it

The spoilers are for people who just want to post about how much they're looking forward to reading it.

What was up with Carlinya dying? Wasn't she suppose to become marath'damane or dacovale? And wasn't Nicola's death rather sudden and dealt with rather briefly. "Oh there's Nicola, just wait till I give her a piece of mind mind.... oh she's dead, never mind so".

Black Sheep

I just did a huge re-read and polished off both the Sanderson contributions to the WoT in about a week.

My take is that on the upside he is moving the series towards completion at a rapid clip (finally). There are some fantastic set-pieces and resolutions in the two books which were so overdue it's ridiculous.

On the downside it took me a while to get my head around the jarring sense of moving from pure RJ-written to Sanderson-written. The last two books felt, in places, like we were reading the bare-fleshed out 'Cliff Notes' version of the books RJ had actually intended to leave. Maybe it's inevitable to a degree, and as mentioned I'm glad that we're making progression towards concluding the series... But it is quite rough and ready stuff in places.

As Namelessguy mentions above, some pretty big events are compressed into just a few lines. One American comentator joked that it's close to WoT in text speak in places.

Chapter 8
"Rand meets Elayne. Rand: 'Wats up babe- I cleansed source.' Elayne: 'OMG Rand love u'. Rand: 'LOL K l8r'. Rand leaves by Gate."

(OK, slight exaggeration there but it does feel pacey to the point of 'WTF? That happened quick' in bits)

OwaynOTT

Is there any way that the spoiler bits that are blacked out, to become revealed?

Lu Tze

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Is there any way that the spoiler bits that are blacked out, to become revealed?

Highlight them with your cursor

ixoy

Just finished this now.

To be honest, I expected more to happen. Felt the pace was a bit slower here and that it was mostly moving various plot lines to be set up for the last book. It was like Sanderson was tidying up outstanding plot lines (e.g.

Moiraine, Perrin killing the Whitecloaks books and books ago

).

Rand was barely in it and I felt that the White Tower storyline didn't move nearly as much as it did in "The Gathering Storm". Again felt like set up with

Egwene drawing up her plans for the finale

It was good from the perspective of Perrin though - can't argue with that. Best job of his character so far as

he finally takes on the mantle of leader and starts to find a balance with his inner wolf

.

There were some good set pieces in there:

The Dark Sisters fight, Gawyn's fight, Perrin vs Slayer, Mat freeing Moiraine (although that bit reminded me of something straight out of an Erikson book).

Also not nearly enough of the Seanchan!

One thing I'm really not sure about was a storyline concerning Aviendha:

The future of the Aiel was very interesting, especially how it affected her... But - and it's a big one for me - Hasn't this effectively spoilt the ending?
Since it's an almost guaranteed future, doesn't it clearly indicate that they win the Last Battle? That Elayne and Aviendha live? That Caemlyn survives? That the damage doesn't appear to be all that bad? I know it's only a possible future but, uncontested as it is now, it's close to a definite one. Really removes a sense of danger.
It also makes me worry that the series won't wrap up the Seanchan invasion if they're still in the future. Can the final book do the Last Battle and the Seanchan storyline? Or will we see the Dragon's Peace enacted at the end? Or are we looking at a future trilogy!

Maybe my expectations were too high, but I'm thinking there's still much to go in the final book and that it might not now wrap up too cleanly.

OwaynOTT

ixoy wrote: »

Just finished this now.

To be honest, I expected more to happen. Felt the pace was a bit slower here and that it was mostly moving various plot lines to be set up for the last book. It was like Sanderson was tidying up outstanding plot lines (e.g.

Moiraine, Perrin killing the Whitecloaks books and books ago

).

Rand was barely in it and I felt that the White Tower storyline didn't move nearly as much as it did in "The Gathering Storm". Again felt like set up with

Egwene drawing up her plans for the finale

It was good from the perspective of Perrin though - can't argue with that. Best job of his character so far as

he finally takes on the mantle of leader and starts to find a balance with his inner wolf

.

There were some good set pieces in there:

The Dark Sisters fight, Gawyn's fight, Perrin vs Slayer, Mat freeing Moiraine (although that bit reminded me of something straight out of an Erikson book).

Also not nearly enough of the Seanchan!

One thing I'm really not sure about was a storyline concerning Aviendha:

The future of the Aiel was very interesting, especially how it affected her... But - and it's a big one for me - Hasn't this effectively spoilt the ending?
Since it's an almost guaranteed future, doesn't it clearly indicate that they win the Last Battle? That Elayne and Aviendha live? That Caemlyn survives? That the damage doesn't appear to be all that bad? I know it's only a possible future but, uncontested as it is now, it's close to a definite one. Really removes a sense of danger.
It also makes me worry that the series won't wrap up the Seanchan invasion if they're still in the future. Can the final book do the Last Battle and the Seanchan storyline? Or will we see the Dragon's Peace enacted at the end? Or are we looking at a future trilogy!

Maybe my expectations were too high, but I'm thinking there's still much to go in the final book and that it might not now wrap up too cleanly.

Jordan said in the past that there would be a lot of story lines hanging loose at the end. If you also consider that he was going to write outrigger sequels tht would involve Mat and Tuon, you can kinda assume that the Seanchan won't be dealt with.

Avienda's vision in Rhuidean are suspect for me. We don't know if it has happened to any other Wise One and who was that woman she met in the desert before she went in?

When you consider how long the series is been going on for, its hard not to have high expectations and Towers of Midnight, whilst being a good read, just didn't have the same impact as a lot of the previous installments. Obviously some of the other books where huge let downs but on a whole its been a great series and it sucks that there is only going to be one more book and with all the content left, its going to be a disappointment.

ixoy

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Jordan said in the past that there would be a lot of story lines hanging loose at the end. If you also consider that he was going to write outrigger sequels tht would involve Mat and Tuon, you can kinda assume that the Seanchan won't be dealt with.

Ah I wasn't aware of that - it explains the pace of some of the plot lines then!

Avienda's vision in Rhuidean are suspect for me. We don't know if it has happened to any other Wise One and who was that woman she met in the desert before she went in?

Well didn't she say that nobody had been to Rhuidean since Rand revealed the history of the Aiel to all?
That woman was curious. I'm going to stab a guess and go crazy and say it's some sort of future Aviendha or her daughter.

When you consider how long the series is been going on for, its hard not to have high expectations and Towers of Midnight, whilst being a good read, just didn't have the same impact as a lot of the previous installments. Obviously some of the other books where huge let downs but on a whole its been a great series and it sucks that there is only going to be one more book and with all the content left, its going to be a disappointment.

That's fair. Like many here, I want a good amount of closure. I know now really I'm not going to get it but.. still. In much the same way Erikson is going to have to leave a number of dangling plot lines when he delivers "The Crippled God" (in just over 2 weeks!).

I do find some of the nations a bit bland - e.g. there's not that much difference between the citizens of Caemlyn and Cairhein really. Other places differ by their moustaches or the low cut of their dresses. So when we do see some nations that are refreshingly different - the Aiel and the Seanchan - I'm worried that we won't see enough of their story (especially with Aviendha's teasing vision of the future of those two races!).

Also edited the thread title so I don't have to use spoiler space

Black Sheep

Bizarrely, that the woman in the desert could be some sort of 'future aviendha' occurred to me also ... Although barring that this initial meeting was some sort of vision I can't see how it could be possible. A few people have pointed out that there's a reference to the food being familliar to Aviendha during the meeting, and suggested that this is some evidence that its a vision of an ancestor or aged version of someone she knows.

The established model for these sorts of meetings / one-off characters based on previous books is usually that its one of the forsaken in disguise - although tough to see their interest in this instance.

I tend to think that the whole Aviendha plotline in this book had to do with finding her some kind of narrative that makes her relevant ... Elayne has had Caemlyn and related adventures throughout the books ... Min is closely wrapped into Rand's plots by virtue of being so close to him ... But Aviendha has been pretty suprlus to requirments in recent books.

Looks like she is being set up to play a hand in saving the Aiel from destruction, post-last battle. In terms of loose ends there are a few angles that could come into play- something to do with the Jenn aiel? Way of the Leaf? All kinds of theories on the various WoT forums.

ixoy

Black Sheep wrote: »

Bizarrely, that the woman in the desert could be some sort of 'future aviendha' occurred to me also ... Although barring that this initial meeting was some sort of vision I can't see how it could be possible. A few people have pointed out that there's a reference to the food being familliar to Aviendha during the meeting, and suggested that this is some evidence that its a vision of an ancestor or aged version of someone she knows.

To further this theory - we know her children are extremely rich in the One Power. Perhaps they've uncovered new Talents, such as time travel in some form and go back to meet their mother. Of course that'd beg the question why they didn't go back and stop the Seanchan but there could be limitations.

The established model for these sorts of meetings / one-off characters based on previous books is usually that its one of the forsaken in disguise - although tough to see their interest in this instance.

Don't think so. They were too ambiguous and didn't really push them in any direction. Plus we saw into the though processes of most of the remaining (I think - I lose track!) and no hint they were messing with a lone warrior in the desert. They've got bigger targets in sight.

I tend to think that the whole Aviendha plotline in this book had to do with finding her some kind of narrative that makes her relevant ... Elayne has had Caemlyn and related adventures throughout the books ... Min is closely wrapped into Rand's plots by virtue of being so close to him ... But Aviendha has been pretty suprlus to requirments in recent books.

Quite probably true. The idea of Rand's three loves is interesting but proving a little hard to manage. Aviendha hasn't any special skills (like Min's viewings) that differentiate her enough. She isn't particularly rich in the One Power or political.
It'll be interesting to see what choice she has to undo to prevent the future. I've a feeling that it may end with Aviendha in a grave - sacrificing herself for someone, and stopping the future that her progeny create.

OwaynOTT

ixoy wrote: »

To further this theory - we know her children are extremely rich in the One Power. Perhaps they've uncovered new Talents, such as time travel in some form and go back to meet their mother. Of course that'd beg the question why they didn't go back and stop the Seanchan but there could be limitations.


Don't think so. They were too ambiguous and didn't really push them in any direction. Plus we saw into the though processes of most of the remaining (I think - I lose track!) and no hint they were messing with a lone warrior in the desert. They've got bigger targets in sight.


Quite probably true. The idea of Rand's three loves is interesting but proving a little hard to manage. Aviendha hasn't any special skills (like Min's viewings) that differentiate her enough. She isn't particularly rich in the One Power or political.
It'll be interesting to see what choice she has to undo to prevent the future. I've a feeling that it may end with Aviendha in a grave - sacrificing herself for someone, and stopping the future that her progeny create.

She can tell what ter'angreal are for, which was convenient considering they just found a massive pile of them. To be honest I haven't liked how much book time has been taken up with Avi in the last two books. She hasn't been needed and despite what she has seen, I cannot see her being much use in the next book either. Well I hope the don't drag the future of the Aiel into A Memory of Light, the book has enough to wrap up without this.

alois

Mat's character - was I the only one disappointed?
The jokes seemed bland and boring, not as sharp as Jordan's writing... I felt this was especially evident in the scene where he meets up with Brigitte. If anyone's re-read the older books recently - is this a fair assessment?

About time that Rand got a grip of himself; Perrin was good too, but like others have mentioned I'd like more of the Seanchan.

Black Sheep

As I posted previously, I have mixed feelings about the differences between Sanderson and Jordan.

I think Jordan was the better writer, but at this point I think you could also make the case that Sanderson's quicker pace and bare-bones approach are necessary if the series is going to conclude soon.

The styllistic difference between them did seem to become less apparent as I read on (I guess it will inevitably be more apparent if you read directly from Jordan's work onto where Sanderson takes up).

When it comes to Mat: To be honest I only found him funny periodically. Yes, he had some good lines and there were some good bits of farce in there, but to me his role was always more to play the 'bad boy' anti-hero, and act as a foil to how straight-laced Rand and Perrin can be. I think Jordan once described him as the 'bad boy on the harley'. If Randland had leatherjackets and motorbikes, he would be all over that. So to be honest I never found him laugh-out-loud funny - what I enjoyed about him was the contrast between how he and others perceived himself, and ultimately the fact that he has some of the hands-down best action set pieces in the whole series.

What I don't like about the way his storyline appears to be heading is that I wonder if the Seanchan / Tuon plotlines are going to be left hanging at the close of the series? Aviendha's visions seem to support this idea, that the Seanchan are going to be a loose end come the aftermath of the final battle. In one sense I guess this reflects reality... No neat endings... But on the other hand with not further WoT books forthcoming it would irk me if we don't know how things pan out for Mat and Tuon long-term.

For what it's worth I also think Sanderson actually did a pretty good job with the rescue of Moiraine from the Tower of Genej. It somehow felt quite alien - not quite like a WoT sequence ... Almost like a little Moorcock intruded. And it's another subplot dealt with.

AnCapaillMor

ixoy wrote: »

To further this theory - we know her children are extremely rich in the One Power. Perhaps they've uncovered new Talents, such as time travel in some form and go back to meet their mother. Of course that'd beg the question why they didn't go back and stop the Seanchan but there could be limitations.

Liked that bit too, the way avi before then was going on about how the Aiel would go on after the war, clearly influenced the kids and they theirs and so on. Started with her, she for me was always the most Aiel of the aiel. either herself or a kid saying hey calm down. Still don't like the idea of the seanchan still using suldam etc or Rand bowing to the seanchan.

Oh btw finished it last night.

some fantastic bits

Perrins deflecting balefire and going "um yeah you can" to egwene. She's been great but also annoying as of late, the whole aes sedai we know better thing gets on my tits

You finally think mats luck is gone and he throws the knife behind him and it kills a rabbit

Couldn't understand 3 books being out of one for the end, seems like a money making ploy, now i can understand, the next\last book will have to epic on every single single and huge to boot too.

Blackhorse Slim

Even apart from the obvious issues to be resolved, there are a few minor things I'm looking forward to being resolved - unless I've missed something along the way? It's a long time since I read the earlier books, I've read the last 2 as they came out but some things from the previous books are a bit hazy;

Loial's return, and the search for the Tinker's Song - probably related?

Padan Fain - I don't remember him being finished, I think he's still around but he hasn't been mentioned for a while, as far as I remember.

The Black Tower and Logain - I guess this really falls under the "obvious" category but I was surprised there wasn't more about this is the last 2 books.

I was planning on re-reading books 10-13 before the last one comes out, maybe I should start again from the beginning. Or before the beginning (New Spring).

coffee_cake

ixoy wrote: »

One thing I'm really not sure about was a storyline concerning Aviendha:

The future of the Aiel was very interesting, especially how it affected her... But - and it's a big one for me - Hasn't this effectively spoilt the ending?
Since it's an almost guaranteed future, doesn't it clearly indicate that they win the Last Battle? That Elayne and Aviendha live?

Do you remember in book 1 or 2 (I THINK), Min had a vision of three women weeping over a funeral bier. That already told us that the three of them would survive, albeit not for how long.

What I would like to see wrapped up is the tinker song and who that woman was in the desert. For some reason I had it in my head she was a forsaken

AnCapaillMor

1st

After Avi's revalations, i imagine the tinkers song is something to do with the Aiel going back to the way of the leaf or some more peaceful existense

2nd one

Fain was around the start of the towers of midinght, just 2 pages, it showed him corrupting trollocs and mydradaal and then he wentoff in search of Rand

3rd yeah thats going to be interesting,

There's elaida's vision of the tower being broken

. there definately could've been more spent on it, it has the potential to be a book in itself.