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John Jinks T.D. Is it true that phrase Jinxed originated with him

2

Comments



  • CDfm wrote: »
    So there are a lot of important questions to be answered

    1. Where did Alderman Jinks go when he left the Dail and with whom

    2. What pubs did he visit and why isnt there a Jinks tour in Dublin

    3. Why havent Sligo Corporation answered my email about the Mayoral Election in 1934 ??

    I smell a conspiracy :eek:

    The answer to your third question is that Sligo Corporation are a useless shower and most likely sent your email straight to the trash folder.




  • il gatto wrote: »
    The answer to your third question is that Sligo Corporation are a useless shower and most likely sent your email straight to the trash folder.

    I am begining to think so too.

    Most towns would be proud to have had an Alderman Jinks.

    While I haven't been able to find out anything about him as a man, did he marry or have children I think I have come accross a likeble guy who nacted with some integrity when it came to the vote of no confidence in 1927.

    I am really glad I started the Jinks thread :)




  • CDfm wrote: »

    I am really glad I started the Jinks thread :)

    So am I. :D

    Keep digging and bringing the nuggets to life. It's the ironies and contradictions of history that make it really interesting.

    Still think he sounds a bit of a gob****e though. A Jackie Healy-Rae of his day.




  • So am I. :D

    Keep digging and bringing the nuggets to life. It's the ironies and contradictions of history that make it really interesting.

    Still think he sounds a bit of a gob****e though. A Jackie Healy-Rae of his day.

    In context, the guy was from Drumcliff in Sligo -which around the time that he moved to Sligo c1885 as a grocers apprentice was very poor.

    So here is a link to his census return - he was married to Annie who was 4 years older than him and was 41 in 1911. Of their 13 children born only 5 were living.

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Sligo/Sligo_North__Urban_/Stephen_Street/756672/

    Actually, now that you mention Jackie Healy-Rae I heard his son on the radio a few years ago participate in a discussion on economics (my qualification) and his grasp of economic theory in the midst of the celtic tiger was better than any other analysis I have heard on the Irish media ever from any politician, journalist or pundit.

    What they do have in common was that they both had strong local followings and in that sense all politics is local.

    Another is, of course, that they understand clientism and the corporate estate.

    So calling him the JHR of his day would be a compliment. :)




  • When Alderman Jinks lived on Stephen Street the Bank of Ireland was new and was built c 1891

    Not a bad area

    You also had a bicycle shop, ironmongers, musical instrument shop and hotel on the same street.

    32007126_1.jpg

    The Bank of Ireland was ahem the Protestant Bank

    The Library (formerly the Methodist Church) was built circa 1850 and refurbished c 1900

    32007151_1.jpg

    He was a publican, undertaker and auctioneer.

    Who were his friends and what type of people did he mix with.
    1912
    As for Jinks, throughout 1912…focused on meetings of the town and North Sligo UIL…He unsuccessfully backed John Treacy, founder of the town’s Gaelic Club, for the job of headmaster of the Technical Schools in July…Roscommon Journal 27 July 1912
    Michael Wheatley (2005) Nationalism and the Irish Party: Provincial Ireland, 1910-1916

    And on to the Michael Collins connection

    Sligo 1914-1921: A Chronicle of Conflict. By Michael Farry.
    Another Sinn Féin supporter was John R. Treacy, a native of Youghal, County Cork, who taught in Limerick and Dublin before coming to Sligo in 1904. He taught in Summerhill College and in the Technical School. He had been involved with Griffith and William Rooney in Sinn Féin while in Dublin and was one of the “Apostles of Sinn Féin” in Sligo.
    In 1916, the Mayor got another opportunity to voice his sympathy for the executed leaders at a meeting in Sligo to appeal for funds for the Irish National Aid Association. This association was set up to help the dependents of those killed and imprisoned on the rebel side in the rising. The Mayor presided and among the attendance were… J. Tracey…During the month of November the Sinn Féin party in Sligo town started a club in a room in a building in Pound Street. It was called "The Wanderers Gaelic Club" but was popularly called "The Sinn Féin Club". Among those involved were John R. Treacy…
    The by-election was fought in January 1917 with polling day on February 3rd. All those on the republican side, though as yet not united, rallied around Plunkett. Many from Sligo tookcpart. Alec McCabe, who had been on the run since the rising took part as did some from Sligo town including probably J. R. Treacy…The Mayor, Mr Hanley and Mrs Hanley welcomed the Countess and a bouquet of roses was presented by Miss Ita Tracey, daughter of the chairman of Sligo Sinn Féin club.
    In 1918. on August 15th there was a nationwide protest by the Sinn Féin organisation against the banning of the organisation and the banning of meetings in Ireland. At various places throughout the land speakers read a printed statement from Sinn Féin and as a result were arrested. In County Sligo a large meeting was held outside the Town Hall. The statement was read by J. R. Tracey…As a result of their action on August 15th Professor Tracey and John Hennigan were arrested on Thursday night/Friday morning and taken into custody. They were still in Sligo prison awaiting trial a week later and both men were offered some hours liberty to visit their families on Sunday August 18th. Treacy accepted but Hennigan refused. On Tuesday, 27th August, the pair were removed to Galway prison. On September 5th a meeting of the Sligo Urban Technical Committee was held under the chairmanship of Rev P. Butler. Treacy was a teacher at the Sligo Technical School and had been there for fourteen years. His appointment was part time subject to annual re-appointment. A letter from Treacy was read at the meeting in which he stated that "owing to circumstances over which I have no control I shall be absent for some time". The committee decided unanimously to re-appoint him and to appoint a substitute pending his return. On September 24th at a court martial in Renmore Barracks Galway, Tracey and Hennigan were found guilty. At the trial Hennigan admitted reading the Sinn Féin manifesto and said that he would do so again if the occasion arose. Both men were sentenced to two years imprisonment. In the case of Professor Tracey he was released at the beginning of October on medical advice. When he arrived at Sligo Station he was met by a large crowd of Sinn Féiners and escorted to his home.
    In 1919, on St. Patrick's Day another protest meeting was held this time about the prisoners especially those from Sligo: John Lynch, Henry Monson, John Hennigan, John Kelly and Frank O'Beirne. The meeting was held in the Market Yard and the speakers included the Mayor, J. R.Tracey, R. G. Bradshaw, Michael Nevin, J. J. Clancy. Members of the Volunteers were there under the command of Liam Pilkington. The other Sligo prisoner, J. J. O'Connell, did not arrive in Sligo until Wednesday March 19th. His arrival was not expected and there was not a large crowd to meet him. However about fifty Volunteers did turn out and escorted him to the Gaelic Club, Teeling Street… J. R. Tracey president of the club.
    In December 1920, among those arrested were John R. Treacy…All these arrests put further pressure on detention space in Sligo and at the end of January some prisoners were moved to Derry. These included John R. Treacy, James Devins, James Doocey and Harry Benson. Also those arrested on January 22nd were moved on February 28th. John R. Tracey of Sligo was moved from Derry jail to Ballykinlar around this time.
    http://homepage.eircom.net/~mfarry47/sligowar.pdf
    Wednesday, April 3rd 1918 The Jail Journal of Michael Collins
    Sligo jail is a short distance from the town. 'Tis generally speak ing like all other jails. It must be old, I think, both from the look and the plan. The cells are smaller than those I knew in Staffordand Wandsworth but the same size as Mountjoy, I think, or the Frongoch clink. The size of course does not make a great difference. One doesn't get appreciably more exercise in a cell 14 by 7 than in one 12 by 7. Mr. Treacy and Mr. Clancy visit me in the evening. The Mayor of Sligo also pays me a visit. I tell him I don't quite like the look of some things.



    It is also in Sligo that we discover the Smyllie connection
    For 1913 the Mayor was Daniel O'Donnell. The Aldermen were John Connolly, John
    Jinks, auctioneer, Thomas Flanagan, merchant, Edward Foley, merchant, J. P. Higgins, merchant
    and the Mayor. The councillors were Thomas Scanlon, tailor cutter, Edward Kelly, Dudley M.
    Hanley, merchant, John Foley, merchant, Michael McDonagh, shopkeeper, John Hughes,
    merchant, James Gray, dealer, Patrick N. White, chemist, Robert Smyllie, journalist, Thomas
    Kivlehin, William Gibbons, plasterer, Thomas Hughes, monumental contractor, Edward Harte,
    painter, Peter Keeley, clerk, Peter Heraghty, trader, John Lynch, stevedore, Henry Monson,
    merchant and Henry Depew, carpenter. Of these six had been in office since the turn of the
    century: John Connolly, Edward Foley, John Jinks, Thomas Scanlon, Edward Kelly and Thomas
    Flanagan. John Lynch was the President of the Sligo branch of the I.T.G.W.U. and had been
    elected for the first time in January 1913. Also elected for the first time then were Union
    candidates Monson, Depew, Heraghty and Thomas Hughes. William Gibbons was also a Labour
    councillor. Robert Smyllie was the only councillor who could be called unionist.

    Wikipedia Entry for RM Smyllie
    Smyllie was born in Glasgow. His father was a Scottish journalist who moved to Sligo to edit the Sligo Times. Smyllie was educated at Sligo Grammar School. He entered Trinity College Dublin in 1912. Working as a vacation tutor to an American boy in Germany at the start of World War I, he was interned in Ruhleben Prisoner of War Camp, near Berlin, during the war. As an internee, he was involved in drama productions with other cosmopolitan internees and gleaned a wide political education.
    He was also on good terms with the church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._M._Smyllie

    1911 Census Entry

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Sligo/Sligo_West_Urban/Knocknaganny__Pt__of_/770123/

    It looks like Bert Smyllie of the Irish Times was son of Robert Smyllie of Council Member of Sligo Corporation in 1916. Well some coincidence. No wonder Alderman Jinks died in 1934 when Bert was appointed as Editor of the Irish Times .
    On January 23rd at the Corporation meeting Alderman John Jinks was unanimously
    elected Mayor with the salary of £130 per year. After his election the new Mayor hosted a
    banquet at which he entertained the Corporation members and a number of his friends. Speeches
    at the banquet included, according to the local press, many "eulogistic references" to Mr Jinks
    including one by Canon E. Doorly Administrator, Sligo, to the effect that "The church in Sligo
    was and ought to be very well satisfied with the appointment made that day."


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  • have to say this thread has been really impressive, for the information you've provided and the obvious interest and dedication you show when you start to work on something. Well done CDfm.




  • Thanks Brian. :)

    I 'spose one has to show students that a bit of insomnia and perseverence you can turn up the odd nugget.

    Bert Smyllie was no doubt the correspondent that told Alderman Jinks story worldwide. He was Bob Smyllies son. He scooped an interview with Lloyd George at Versailles.

    A larger than life character Yeats called him a drunken journalist and disliked him. He transformed the Irish Times.

    Wolfe was also a newspaper man of sorts and his family owned a local Skibbereen paper.
    Todd) Andrews writing of Smyllie: ‘He integrated the Irish Times and what it stood for with the Irish nation’, in A Man of No Property (here p.95.) Smyllie at war: ‘Smyllie, I found, was showing signs of wear and tear. The Irish Times was down to a single folded sheet - four pages; and he had been involved in a protracted battle with the Censors. A couple of notable victories had been gained, including one which had featured in newspapers all over the English-speaking world. Commenting on one of Churchill’s speeches, in which he had named nine militatry commanders who had won fame in the Middle East, an Irishman’s Diary paragraph noted that only one of them had [133] been British. Three, it went on - Generals Wilson, Dill and Brooke - were Japanese (North Island); four - Generals O’Connor and O’Moore Creagh; Admirals Somerville and Cunningham - were Japanese (South Island). Nobody was later able to discover how this spoof got past the Censors, but they retaliated by becoming even more tough than before.’ (pp.133-34.)

    He also hired Flann O'Brien for the Irish Times.

    Who knows how the story started that Smyllie influenced Alderman Jinks. I suspect it did not surface until after 1934 when both Cooper & Jinks were dead.

    Smyllie was at odds with DeValera and well - the above shows he was fond of a spoof and DeV was a bit humourless.

    There also may have been a dark side to it as I read somewhere that Jinks had moved Newspaper Advertising from one paper to one with larger circulation and the looser may have been the paper Robert Senior Edited - the Sligo Times.

    Its a small little world isn't it.

    Viva Jinks :D




  • CDfm wrote: »
    Thanks Brian. :)

    I 'spose one has to show students that a bit of insomnia and perseverence you can turn up the odd nugget.

    Bert Smyllie was no doubt the correspondent that told Alderman Jinks story worldwide. He was Bob Smyllies son. He scooped an interview with Lloyd George at Versailles.

    A larger than life character Yeats called him a drunken journalist and disliked him. He transformed the Irish Times.

    Wolfe was also a newspaper man of sorts and his family owned a local Skibbereen paper.



    He also hired Flann O'Brien for the Irish Times.

    Who knows how the story started that Smyllie influenced Alderman Jinks. I suspect it did not surface until after 1934 when both Cooper & Jinks were dead.

    Smyllie was at odds with DeValera and well - the above shows he was fond of a spoof and DeV was a bit humourless.

    There also may have been a dark side to it as I read somewhere that Jinks had moved Newspaper Advertising from one paper to one with larger circulation and the looser may have been the paper Robert Senior Edited - the Sligo Times.

    Its a small little world isn't it.

    Viva Jinks :D

    Not sure where some of this is coming from - do you have any references?

    I did my own digging for references on Smyllie. Smyllie was a character no doubt but as regards De Valera he came to respect Dev and shared many of his views. Smyllie became very suspicious of Fine Gael – especially what he viewed as Cosgrave’s too close dalliance with the Blueshirts and drew closer to Dev. Details of these are given in the biography of Smyllie by Tony Gray published about 20 years ago. Gray worked alongside of him in the Irish Times. I have a copy of the book and just consulted it – Syllie wrote an editorial in 1936 agreeing with Dev’s decision to proscribe the IRA and break the ports part of the Treaty and Smyllie further supported Dev’s abolition of the post of British Governor-General in favour of an Irish President.

    As regards the Jinks affair Gray says that Smyllie was too much a believer in the system of democracy to have been involved in purposely trying to prevent Jinks from voting – and Donal O’Sullivan dismisses the ‘legend’ of Jinks as just that in The Free State and Its Senate i.e. O’Sullivan claims that Jinks had been warned off the vote by Major Cooper and that Jinks just got on the train back to Sligo in order to avoid the vote.




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Not sure where some of this is coming from - do you have any references?

    For which bit.

    Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted. There are plenty of references to a drunken,mischevious and carousing Bert Smyllie whereas the good Alderman was sober and industrious.

    But where is your source for Cooper issueing a threat that he didnt need to make.

    The on the razz with Bert sounds funny and like pub talk. :D


    I did my own digging for references on Smyllie. Smyllie was a character no doubt but as regards De Valera he came to respect Dev and shared many of his views. Smyllie became very suspicious of Fine Gael – especially what he viewed as Cosgrave’s too close dalliance with the Blueshirts and drew closer to Dev.

    Of course Smyllie drew closer to DeV. Smyllie guided a minority newspaper thru survival -no mean feat in itself, but, Bert liked to think of himself as a" man of affairs" unlike his predessessor as editor Healy (?) and if he wasn't close to or giving the impression of being close to those in power he was not happy.

    The growth of the Blueshirts was an unfortunate occurance, but, DeV had paramilitary links and a private army when he came to power. My grandfather who was a Flying Column veteran was called on to escort neighbours to vote in the 1932 elections due to IRA interference at the polling station in Coolea. My grandfather was not a blueshirt.


    I am not defending the Blueshirts but Cosgrave was right and DeV took his time with dealing with dissident republicans.

    Cosgrave was there in 1916 and like DeV was a veteran of the rising and was with Eamonn Ceannt in St James Hospital -so he was not a pacifist or opposed to the use of arms. Like DeV he was sentenced to death in the aftermath and had the death sentence commuted. He also was a Dublin City Councillor and his dad had a pub and grocery business.
    Details of these are given in the biography of Smyllie by Tony Gray published about 20 years ago. Gray worked alongside of him in the Irish Times. I have a copy of the book and just consulted it – Syllie wrote an editorial in 1936 agreeing with Dev’s decision to proscribe the IRA and break the ports part of the Treaty and Smyllie further supported Dev’s abolition of the post of British Governor-General in favour of an Irish President.

    I am not saying that Smyllie did not agree with an Independent Ireland. Himself, Yeats, Wolfe and Cooper regarded themselves as Irish and got stuck in in the new state.

    If DeV had proscribed the IRA a few years earlier, maybe Willie Cosgrave would not have hitched up with it. You might even say that it acted as a catalyst for DeV to act.


    As regards the Jinks affair Gray says that Smyllie was too much a believer in the system of democracy to have been involved in purposely trying to prevent Jinks from voting – and Donal O’Sullivan dismisses the ‘legend’ of Jinks as just that in The Free State and Its Senate i.e. O’Sullivan claims that Jinks had been warned off the vote by Major Cooper and that Jinks just got on the train back to Sligo in order to avoid the vote.

    Is that all you have to go on. We might as well say he was in Cosgraves Bar on James St enjoying the crack with Phil & James Cosgrave and getting dropped off for the train by WT himself.

    'Cept it didn't happen that way and I am inclined to believe what Alderman Jinks told the newspapers.

    He just had too much in common with the pro-government side on every level not to need persuading.




  • CDfm wrote: »
    For which bit.

    Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted. .


    What? This is how you do research? Dismiss all that you don't want to know about or agree with?

    I was asking about all the statements about Yeats, Flann O'Brien and even Smyllie etc. that you put out there. It's not clear where that all came from. It was a valid question IMO and in no way meant to be an idle argument.
    CDfm wrote: »
    But where is your source for Cooper issueing a threat that he didnt need to make.

    I was clearly quoting from Donal O'Sullivan on that one. His work is considered to be of great value.

    CDfm wrote: »
    I am not saying that Smyllie did not agree with an Independent Ireland. Himself, Yeats, Wolfe and Cooper regarded themselves as Irish and got stuck in in the new state.

    I have no idea what you mean by this? What is the reference to Yeats about?
    CDfm wrote: »
    If DeV had proscribed the IRA a few years earlier, maybe Willie Cosgrave would not have hitched up with it. You might even say that it acted as a catalyst for DeV to act.

    This seems to be just your conjecture. A careful reading of the historic record indicates the line that Dev was carefully treading - his decision to outlaw the IRA came only about 2 years after he was in office.

    CDfm wrote: »
    Is that all you have to go on. We might as well say he was in Cosgraves Bar on James St enjoying the crack with Phil & James Cosgrave and getting dropped off for the train by WT himself.

    We might as well say anything if you won't accept any sources that are not inclined to your own view. Again, I was just putting something else out there and using valid sources to do so. I have a number of books to hand that deal with Smyllie and his world.

    I wasn't spoiling for a fight here - just inquiring about your sources which weren't very clear to me but if you can't take an alternative point of view on the thread then what is the point of the thread?

    I really must say that I think you seem to have a conditioned view against De Valera and won't be budged from that on any account - source material be damned. Am I reading this right??


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  • MarchDub wrote: »
    What? This is how you do research? Dismiss all that you don't want to know about or agree with?

    My oh my. What did Alderman Jinks ever do to you.

    I heard the word Jinxed used and picked up on something my old history teacher said years back on Jinks and who believed Ireland Since the Famine was the Bible.
    I was asking about all the statements about Yeats, Flann O'Brien and even Smyllie etc. that you put out there. It's not clear where that all came from. It was a valid question IMO and in no way meant to be an idle argument.

    I have always been interested in the area and read widely.

    I have picked them up over time but really this was not about any of the above really -it was about Jinks.

    Flann O'Brien wrote for the Times. Him & Smyllie got on. Characters and that gives more of a feel for who Smyllie was friends with.

    There was a generation gap between Smyllie and Alderman Jinks.



    I was clearly quoting from Donal O'Sullivan on that one. His work is considered to be of great value.

    I often find historians like O'Sullivan to be partisan and Irish history is notorious for this.


    I have no idea what you mean by this? What is the reference to Yeats about?

    Yeats is there as a Sligo expat really and someone who had an opinion on Smyllie and that people would know. It is not meant to be a sad reflection on Smyllie more one Sligo expats view on another.

    O'Sullivan is not someone I know or would read.

    But I didnt know Smyllies Dad and the Alderman served as a councillor in Sligo or was the Editor of the local paper.



    This seems to be just your conjecture. A careful reading of the historic record indicates the line that Dev was carefully treading - his decision to outlaw the IRA came only about 2 years after he was in office.

    I actually would lean more towards DeV on most things but he had from 1927 to make the decision.

    I very rarely am pro-FG but on this I am with Cosgrave -rock and hard place as in "Well Eamonn -if you have a private army I will pick one up too" .

    We might as well say anything if you won't accept any sources that are not inclined to your own view. Again, I was just putting something else out there and using valid sources to do so. I have a number of books to hand that deal with Smyllie and his world.

    Smyllie was a character & larger than life.

    Thats not detracting from the guy.
    I wasn't spoiling for a fight here - just inquiring about your sources which weren't very clear to me but if you can't take an alternative point of view on the thread then what is the point of the thread?

    The point of the sources is that they are local, the census etc but where possible they mention Alderman Jinks.
    I really must say that I think you seem to have a conditioned view against De Valera and won't be budged from that on any account - source material be damned. Am I reading this right??

    The thread is not about DeV at all. It is about Jinks - his motivations etc. DeV is a bit player and was not from Sligo.

    There is a certain bit of fun behind it because the sources are sparse.I mean WT and Alderman Jinks had the same occupation -as in publican, grocer etc.

    I am not saying I am right and I havent cherrypicked the sources on Alderman Jinks - I have looked for information on a little guy who is a footnote in history.




  • CDfm wrote: »
    My oh my. What did Alderman Jinks ever do to you.

    I heard the word Jinxed used and picked up on something my old history teacher said years back on Jinks and who believed Ireland Since the Famine was the Bible.


    I have always been interested in the area and read widely.

    I have picked them up over time but really this was not about any of the above really -it was about Jinks.

    Flann O'Brien wrote for the Times. Him & Smyllie got on. Characters and that gives more of a feel for who Smyllie was friends with.

    There was a generation gap between Smyllie and Alderman Jinks.


    I often find historians like O'Sullivan to be partisan and Irish history is notorious for this.





    Yeats is there as a Sligo expat really and someone who had an opinion on Smyllie and that people would know. It is not meant to be a sad reflection on Smyllie more one Sligo expats view on another.

    O'Sullivan is not someone I know or would read.

    But I didnt know Smyllies Dad and the Alderman served as a councillor in Sligo or was the Editor of the local paper.






    I actually would lean more towards DeV on most things but he had from 1927 to make the decision.

    I very rarely am pro-FG but on this I am with Cosgrave -rock and hard place as in "Well Eamonn -if you have a private army I will pick one up too" .




    Smyllie was a character & larger than life.

    Thats not detracting from the guy.



    The point of the sources is that they are local, the census etc but where possible they mention Alderman Jinks.



    The thread is not about DeV at all. It is about Jinks - his motivations etc. DeV is a bit player and was not from Sligo.

    There is a certain bit of fun behind it because the sources are sparse.I mean WT and Alderman Jinks had the same occupation -as in publican, grocer etc.

    I am not saying I am right and I havent cherrypicked the sources on Alderman Jinks - I have looked for information on a little guy who is a footnote in history.

    Your opening question is enough for me to quit.


    TBH you do seem to cherry pick whom you call partisan and who is to be believed. You make up your own bible. But I am just going to leave it at that. I can see that discussing this any further with you is going to go around in silly circles.




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Your opening question is enough for me to quit.


    TBH you do seem to cherry pick whom you call partisan and who is to be believed. You make up your own bible. But I am just going to leave it at that. I can see that discussing this any further with you is going to go around in silly circles.

    Actually Marchdub - it is different.

    Jinks abstention in 1927 was about his beliefs and connections and Sligo.

    I have not seen one reliable source place Alderman Jinks abducted in any pub by Smyllie or one reliable source place Cooper issueing threats.

    Lemass did not think so and it has been attributed to Wolfes speech.

    I have actually gone to the trouble of demonstrating with available information what made Jinks tick and how he arrived at his decision.I even showed how he knew Smyllie and how the proposition that he was intimidated by Cooper was just silly.

    The truth is very mundane here and I am just having fun with a footnote in history.

    What are O'Sullivans sources here ?

    He must have sources for this unless he is citing someone else - Gene Kerrigan perhaps ?




  • Not inglorious: Smyllie is the probable subject of Yeats’s phrase, ‘a drunken journalist’ in ‘Why Should Not Old Men Be Mad?’; he wrote in Irish Timescontesting report that W. B. Yeats was incapable of familiarity with friends (7 Feb. 1939) [see under St. John Ervine].

    http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/s/Smyllie,RM/life.htm




  • As part of my bid to restore the reputation of Alderman Jinks postumously, I bring glad tidings.He was Mayor in 1934.

    I refer to yours of the 21st inst in above regard. Alderman Jinks was Mayor of Sligo

    In 1914, 1915 1916, 1921 and part of 1934. Michael Nevin was Mayor for remainder

    Of 1934. I have taken this information from the Roll of Mayors which is on display in the

    Mayors Parlour, City Hall.

    Unfortunately we do not have any old files which might answer your other query, I suggest

    You contact the Sligo County Library which holds archive material old newspapers etc.

    Their email address is [email protected]

    Regards

    Mary Dolan
    Staff Officer
    Sligo Borough Council

    Now I have gone back asking that they correct the website
    Hi Mary

    Thanks-you have answered my question -I have since found out that Alderman Jinks died in September 1934 while in office.

    It would be good to see him listed having won the Election and it just shows that the Mayors Roll is incorrect.

    He was a TD for a short period in 1927 when he abstained from a crucial no confidence motion which was very controvercial.

    It would be good to see the website corrected listing his final Mayoralty- as in fact it was Alderman Jinks who was Mayor and Michael Nevin who was the Alternate. The listing on the website is just confusing.

    My interest is really historical and he is a difficult guy to get information on.

    Many thanks

    I mean how could they do it.

    Thats rhetorical Marchdub -you dont have to answer that :)




    IMPORTANT UPDATE

    Just got this email from Mary Dolan in Sligo Corporation.


    Will discuss with someone in our communications office and see if website can be amended.



    Regards



    Mary


    The Rehabilitation of Alderman Jinks continues.




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    TBH you do seem to cherry pick whom you call partisan and who is to be believed. You make up your own bible. But I am just going to leave it at that. I can see that discussing this any further with you is going to go around in silly circles.

    Think about the issue in the same terms as Connolly's supposed kidnapping by the IRB or any number of 'facts' that have been taken as truth with a minimum of evidence to support them in the history of Ireland or history in general. This issue of whether Jinks was in the pub or not is just another example of that sort of phenomenon in history.




  • Think about the issue in the same terms as Connolly's supposed kidnapping by the IRB or any number of 'facts' that have been taken as truth with a minimum of evidence to support them in the history of Ireland or history in general. This issue of whether Jinks was in the pub or not is just another example of that sort of phenomenon in history.


    Exactly! Which is why I was attempting to bring another perspective on the issue. That he may not have been in the pub at all - and that other sources reject this idea and support the notion that he just missed the vote because....

    OK CDfm - Once more into the breach!




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Exactly! Which is why I was attempting to bring another perspective on the issue. That he may not have been in the pub at all - and that other sources reject this idea and support the notion that he just missed the vote because....

    I think that's what CDfm is trying to establish too, he might just have been a little suspicious of established sources since they seem to have done Mr. Jinks so much harm in the past.




  • I think that's what CDfm is trying to establish too, he might just have been a little suspicious of established sources since they seem to have done Mr. Jinks so much harm in the past.


    Well to that point - I would hardly call Tony Gray's biography of Smyllie an established historic source. And CDfm's exact words were "Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted."

    Didn't sound like an open mind to me.

    Just saying...




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Well to that point - I would hardly call Tony Gray's biography of Smyllie an established historic source. And CDfm's exact words were "Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted."

    Didn't sound like an open mind to me.

    Just saying...

    It seems pretty reasonable to me.

    Wasn't it Napoleon that said " History is a set of lies agreed upon"

    So why should Alderman Jinks take the hit.

    People can admire DeValera for banning the IRA in 1936 and justify or crticize Willie Cosgrave and his tie up with the Blueshirts but put our guy making the same decisions on the fly in 1927 and people say he was either on the beer or intimidated , not ,that he acted with integrity.

    The question that should be asked is why the others did not vote this way ?

    Were they intimidated or on the beer ?


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  • CDfm wrote: »

    "Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted."


    It seems pretty reasonable to me.


    Yeah - I thought so.:D




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Yeah - I thought so.:D

    And the other politicians that supported DeValera at that time.

    That was enough of a reason to trash the good Alderman.

    There was only 1 vote in it ??

    I have found this where Sean Lemass uses the phrase "slightly constitutional" on the business of Dail Eireann indicating that the Parties are only constitutional when it suits them.

    Dáil Éireann 21 March, 1928

    PRIVATE DEPUTIES' BUSINESS

    REVIEW OF PRISONERS' CASES
    —PROPOSED SELECT COMMITTEE

    Mr. LEMASS: I think it would be right to inform Deputy Davin that Fianna Fáil is a slightly constitutional party. We are perhaps open to the definition of a constitutional party, but before anything we are a Republican party. We have adopted the method of political agitation to achieve our end, because we believe, in the present circumstances, that method is best in the interests of the nation and of the Republican movement, and for no other reason.

    Interesting how he spells it out. Even more interesting is a slightly more elaborate explanation, Not on the original list but see what happens when instead of 'slightly constitutional party' the drop the word party.

    Dáil Éireann, 18 May, 1928

    PETITION FOR
    INITIATION OF CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS

    Mr. LEMASS: Because every word of the Minister's speech here was in direct contradiction to the speech delivered by the President on the last day that this motion was debated. As a Deputy who, when this question was raised some time ago, did not hesitate for one moment in describing himself as being only slightly constitutional, the President's speech on Wednesday last, I think, justifies me in claiming him as a colleague.

    I think that a large section, at any rate, of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party in their attitude in this matter have shown themselves to be only slightly constitutional as well.

    Both the President and myself are agreed apparently that the Constitution is an intolerable nuisance only to be obeyed when it suits us, and in so far as it suits us, and be ignored when it happens to be inconvenient. I strongly suspect that the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Agriculture are with us in our attitude, although, in view of the effect which the President's speech has created they are anxious to give a veneer of legality to their attitude. Deputies O'Connell and Davin are, of course, constitutionalists. We can afford to ignore those—we can deal with those. If we can get agreement between the two big Parties in this House to regard the Constitution as a nuisance—something of no significance, something that can be ignored when occasion requires—then I think we will have cleared the way very considerably towards the establishment of proper canons of political honesty in [1757] this country. We, however, before deciding upon having that particular fact clearly recognised by the people must reckon with the opposition we are likely to encounter. We have it already indicated clearly that Deputy O'Connell and the Labour Party will oppose our unconstitutionalism. However logical and reasonable that may sound, their numbers in this House, I think, are not sufficiently great to enable them to impede us in our work.

    There are other Deputies who are likely to be as strictly constitutional as the Labour Party. We know that the word has gone forth from the “Irish Times” to those who adopt its political creed on this matter. In this morning's issue of that paper, you will find that stated in the leading article:

    Mr. Cosgrave's incontinent rejection of it, (that is the petition) therefore, may be interpreted, not unreasonably, as a violation of the Constitution; and such violation must be regarded as a dangerous precedent. We can imagine easily the use Mr. de Valera might make of it if, at some future time, his Party should take office. The Constitution can be amended by Parliament but, as it stands, it is sacred. Any other attitude to-day—especially by Ministers —opens an alarming vista of irregularity and lawlessness.

    The order is gone forth to the Constitutionalists that President Cosgrave and myself in having this Constitution relegated to the scrap heap will have to reckon with considerable opposition from that quarter.

    “So gather round, my boys,
    Sinn Feiners scorning,
    Let your voices roll across the floor,
    For the Constitutional movement, now take warning,
    Must go on and on and on, for evermore.”

    http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/archives/launch.htm#%22...an%20equality%20of%20votes...%22

    And Jinks was not the only person to loose a seat - 5 (out of 8) other of his colleagues from the National League lost as did ...........
    Result

    Following the general election Cumann na nGaedhael were able to form a government with the support of the Farmer's Party and other Independent TDs. The Labour leader, Thomas Johnson, lost his seat in the election and subsequently retired from politics.




  • Just want to add - I looked up your FSL Lyons reference. I know you were uncertain about it but he was definitely not the one to suggest that the name Jinks gave rise to the word Jinx. Which I know has been established as in use long before our friend Jinks.

    Lyons' only comment at the end of his discussion on the topic is that the name Jinks "was carried for several years by a successful racehorse."




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Just want to add - I looked up your FSL Lyons reference. I know you were uncertain about it but he was definitely not the one to suggest that the name Jinks gave rise to the word Jinx. Which I know has been established as in use long before our friend Jinks.

    Lyons' only comment at the end of his discussion on the topic is that the name Jinks "was carried for several years by a successful racehorse."

    Pah - I just wonder if it was that particular teacher who had been a student of Prof John A Murphy in Cork.

    I suppose we are lucky that Alderman Jinks has not been credited with Roaming the Emerald Isle with Will Rogers

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0207060/


    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjy65DEh6mbeM7sNorAR38vfB8hHa8b6H-e4dtj8bOsxSzpRw&t=1&usg=__D1eB70sR8hzQ-DgTXSO1xxrHoYI=




  • Its been done - Sligo Corporation have redone their online Lord Mayors list adding Alderman Jinks on for another term .


    http://www.sligoborough.ie/asp/AboutUs/MayorsSligo.asp




  • Now we need a photo. There has to be one somewhere. Maybe a newspaper archive?




  • MarchDub wrote: »
    Now we need a photo. There has to be one somewhere. Maybe a newspaper archive?

    I have not been able to find one on-line - the hunt goes on !!!!




  • The Next Best thing. Michael Farry has a pic on his on-line book Page 15


    http://homepage.eircom.net/~mfarry47/sligowar.pdf




  • A little titbit here.

    Having a look thru the Lissadell Papers on Page 26 there is a reference to Alderman Jinks recruiting the Lissadell workers to the ITGWU in 1920 and a strike.

    This resulted in Sir Jossylin Gore-Booth milking a herd of cows and coming to an agreement with the workers.

    http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction__lissadell_papers_d4131_.pdf

    Countess Markiewicz being a Gore-Booth and Sir Josslyns sister.

    ... Whilst Lissadell remained in the control of Sir Josslyn he ensured full employment, whatever the political or economic situation; when he died in 1944 the estate [still] employed 102 persons and the buildings, including the many houses and cottages, were all occupied and in good order. Unfortunately he was not able completely to avoid labour problems. In 1920 Alderman Jinks of Sligo recruited the Lissadell workers into the local branch of the Irish Transport and General Workers’ Union. Shortly afterwards there was a dispute about conditions and a strike was called. Sir Josslyn's main concern was the dairy herd, which he milked unaided for several days, but the task was too much for him. He drove to the Union headquarters in Sligo and persuaded them to milk the cows to avoid unnecessary suffering, although all the milk was tipped away.
    While it is obvious that Sir Josslyn and [his sister] Constance supported conflicting ideals, there are many reports of their respect for one another. Constance continued to visit Lissadell, usually with her husband Casimir, until 1913 when her political activities began to increase towards the violent crescendo of the Easter Rising in 1916. Contact after that was more difficult, although Constance was still seeing her mother through secret meetings arranged by Sarah Purser, the artist who painted the double portrait [at Lissadell] of Constance and Eva as children. However, Sir Josslyn never rejected his sister and took responsibility for her property during her several periods of imprisonment. As Constance once said: 'I suppose it's very embarrassing to have a relation that gets into jail and fights in revolutions that you are not in sympathy with" ... .

    I am including this here to give a flavour the community.

    Dont forget, that the conflicting ideals were rife in Sligo and the idea that Jinks might be intimidated by a rich local landowner is without merit.

    He would also have been aware that the Countesses daughter lived in the area
    Constance's daughter, Maeve, was born at Lissadell on 13 November 1901 and was to spend almost her entire childhood in the care of her relatives in Sligo. ... Even when her parents moved [from Paris] to Dublin and a new home at St Mary's, Rathgar, in 1903, Maeve continued to live mainly with her grandmother, although her stepbrother, Staskow, lived at St Mary's. In 1907 Sir Josslyn married and Lady Gore-Booth move from Lissadell, first to a rented house, Ballytivnan, but eventually to Ardeevan [between Sligo and Rosses Point], which was to be Maeve's home for the remainder of her childhood. ... As she grew older, Maeve increasingly disapproved of her mother's revolutionary activities and, although they evidently enjoyed each other's company when they were together, Maeve was convinced that her mother thought only rarely about her at other times. ...'

    It is an interesting dynamic and I wonder how much of an influence Countess Markiewicz had. Did he like them or dislike them or even disapprove of her.

    DeV wasn't even sure if she would take her Dail seat and what were the opinions of her locally in Sligo.


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  • Yes folks, our efforts to rehabitate Alderman Jinks must have reached the Irish Times because of years of myth making now claiming that Bertie Smylie and Alderman Jinks were friends and actually discussing his political motivation rather than resorting to "tabloid style " innuendo.

    The Irish Times - Thursday, December 9, 2010
    An Irishman's Diary

    Frank McNally
    EVEN in these dire times, the word “boycott” continues to be a source of national pride. It is now all of 130 years since it began life as a humble noun/verb start-up, located unpromisingly in impoverished rural Mayo. Despite which, it has gone on to become one of our most enduring exports.
    If anything, its popularity is still growing. In the past week alone, Sudan was reported to have boycotted the EU/Africa summit; at least 18 different countries were planning to boycott the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony; and combining politics with sport – an area in which the word has fared especially well – left-wingers in Israel were calling for a boycott of the inaugural Jerusalem marathon next year.
    Which just goes to show that if you give the world something it needs, attractively presented and packaged, repeat business is all but guaranteed.
    But consider by contrast the fate of another noun-verb, also a surname, that this country once offered to the world and that, a mere 80 years ago, seemed to have a similarly bright future. I refer of course to the word “Jinks”, derived from the eponymous Sligo TD John, who made global headlines in 1927 by saving the Cumann na nGaedheal government.
    The story is well known. In the wake of the assassination of Kevin O’Higgins, the ruling party had forced Fianna Fáil’s entry into the Dáil, thereby threatening its own majority. A no-confidence motion was duly tabled, and with the support of FF, Labour, and others, looked likely to succeed; leading to the formation, without an election, of a new government.
    The numbers were tight up until the last minute. But Alderman Jinks, a vestige of Parnell’s old Irish party, quietly absented himself from the Dáil chamber shortly before the division, which was tied 71-71, allowing the Ceann Comhairle’s casting vote to save the administration.
    The alderman’s immediate notoriety was no doubt helped by a colourful surname, to which was added the colourful circumstances attributed to his abstention. Specifically, two Sligo friends, including the Irish Times editor RM Smyllie, were rumoured to have conspired in his absence. Decades later, even that most sober of historians, FSL Lyons, was still speculating “as to whether they achieved this result by an excellent luncheon which the alderman was obliged to sleep off in his hotel, or whether they simply sent him home on the next train to Sligo”.
    The truth may have been more prosaic. Jinks was inclined to vote for the government anyway, but his party leadership had instructed him differently. Thus, excellent luncheon or not, he was conflicted. Besides, based on known voting intentions, he had reason to think that the no-confidence motion would carry, regardless of his actions.
    But in the event, his abstention proved pivotal. And amid relief in establishment circles that Fianna Fáil’s ascension to power had been postponed (for five years, as it happened), the Sunday Independent reported that Mr Jinks had “won immortality”.
    So it must have seemed. In fact, the term to “do a jinks”, meaning to absent oneself at a key moment, did enjoy a certain currency for a while. And their shared Connacht ancestry apart, “jinks” and “boycott” would have made natural companions: both of them describing an action that is, essentially, the absence of action, but in different degrees.
    The problem was that the English language already had a “jinks” and, for good measure, a “jinx” too. Not only that, but in their broadest sense, those two words already seemed to have Ireland’s 1927 political crisis well covered.
    The verb “to jinx”, meaning “to bring bad luck” on something, most likely derives from a famous Vaudeville song of the 1860s: Captain Jinks and the Horse Marines , which was about an incompetent soldier.
    Which incompetent soldier may have taken his name from the once-popular dice game, High Jinks: a key point of which was that the losers had to consume alcohol. And that title in turn probably derived from the Scottish verb, to jink, meaning to move in an unexpected or elusive manner.
    Thus the name “John Jinks” was itself a sentence, describing – albeit loosely – what the deputy for Sligo did on that fateful day in 1927, with indirect references to the bringing of bad luck (on the no-confidence motion), and even to the consumption of alcohol. No wonder his name was not considered a necessary addition to the English language.
    Worse still, from the point of view of any Dáil members who, even now, may be considering a similar bid for glory, Jinks lost his seat in the next election, which followed only three months later. And in the absence of a lexicographical monument, the Sligo man had to settle for a temporary tribute in another sphere.
    As FSL Lyons put it: “Mr Jinks, his moment of fame fulfilled, passed from the political stage, though not entirely from memory, since his name was carried for several years by a very successful racehorse.”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1209/1224285097389.html

    Not the reference to Parnells Party and no reference to his Trade Union Activity .

    Some back handed compliments and grudging acknowledgement that FSL Lyons appraissal of Alderman Jinks was incorrect.

    TSK TSK Professor Lyons


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