John Jinks T.D. Is it true that phrase Jinxed originated with him

CDfm

John Jinks was a TD for Sligo-Leitrim who missed a No Confidence vote on the government in 1927 -meaning the government survived.

I once read that that the term "jinxed" originated with him.

There were huge repercussions for Irish politics .Like Geoffrey Howe who toppled Thatcher and who likened his attack to being savaged by a dead sheep.

What really happened ?

Was he nobbled or were his reasons for not voting based on conviction.

Who was this guy and surely he deserves more than a footnote.

Ponster

> John Jinks T.D. Is it true that phrase Jinxed originated with him

I doubt it. The word was already in use before the incident of 1927 (Google Books comes up with examples from the USA ~1920).

CDfm

Ponster wrote: »

I doubt it. The word was already in use before the incident of 1927 (Google Books comes up with examples from the USA ~1920).

I am almost sure I picked that up from an FSL Lyons book -talk about taking liberties and sensationalising. Lyons has just gone done in my estimation.:D

But on a more serious note, his action saved the government of the day and, kept "Treaty" politics alive by not allowing an alternative minority government to form.

It was a fairly momentous move.

So what was the guy like ?

PatsytheNazi

CDfm wrote: »

John Jinks was a TD for Sligo-Leitrim who missed a No Confidence vote on the government in 1927 -meaning the government survived.

I once read that that the term "jinxed" originated with him.

There were huge repercussions for Irish politics .Like Geoffrey Howe who toppled Thatcher and who likened his attack to being savaged by a dead sheep.

What really happened ?

Was he nobbled or were his reasons for not voting based on conviction.

Who was this guy and surely he deserves more than a footnote.

My father's people were from down in that part of the country. Appearently Jinx missed the no vote as he was getting drunk in a pub down in the city centre. Well that's what I was told, wouldn't surprise me in the least.

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

My father's people were from down in that part of the country. Appearently Jinx missed the no vote as he was getting drunk in a pub down in the city centre. Well that's what I was told, wouldn't surprise me in the least.

So what really happened.

Some say he was more or less abducted and plied with drink and others that he did not attend on a point of principle.

I don't think drunkeness has ever stopped an Irish Politician attending the Dail.

EDIT - I have come up with a lead

Major Bryan Cooper, a Sligo landowner who moved from referring to “Robespierre Redmond and Danton Dillon” to becoming a Cumann na nGaedheal TD, and was allegedly the man who put John Jinks, TD, on the Sligo train, drunk, in 1927, thus saving the Cumann na nGaedheal government from losing a crucial vote of confidence; http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0227/1224265249049.html

And

All but three of Ireland’s twelve Taoisigh have at one point looked to independents to save their hide in parliament. In 1927, for instance, the minority government of Cumann na nGaedheal (precursor to Fine Gael) faced a vote of no confidence from Fianna Fáil, which had entered parliament for the first time since the beginning of the civil war five years earlier. A swift count of declared positions indicated that the government would fall by one vote. And yet, when it came time to vote, the National League’s John Jinks was mysteriously missing. The result was a tied vote in the lower house of parliament, the Dáil, with the Speaker’s casting vote saving the government. Jinks’s absence was rumoured to be at least partly the work of an independent TD (as MPs are known in Ireland), Jasper Travers Wolfe. Jinks had been taken on a tour of Dublin’s finest hostelries and, worse for wear, was last seen boarding a train to Sligo. And so was born the expression, “Twas Jasper, and not Jinks, saved the Irish nation.” http://inside.org.au/independents%E2%80%99-days/

His own version here was that he left the Dail without voting in order to save the government and that this was what his constituents wanted him to do and it was a deliberate decision.

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16398293

CDfm

Another boost for Alderman Jinks integrity comes from here.

DeValera wanted to support a Labour Government with the National League Party as the Junior Partner. Without Jinks they wouldnt have the numbers.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=c_LgMiypJ80C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=alderman+john+jinks&source=bl&ots=xf0I_wXWVn&sig=nh6WDzqtr09zpsSw7_bB_6ifaKM&hl=en&ei=f-G9TPrIJdOSjAf4qtW-Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=alderman%20john%20jinks&f=false

Cosgrave suggested a horse be called Alderman Jinks and it won the Two Thousand Guineas in England in 1929.

CDfm

In 1934 Alderman Jinks tied with Alderman Nevin in the Election of Lord Mayor of Sligo and being the more senior Alderman Elected himself.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19340823.2.93

MR. JINKS AGAIN
ELECTS HIMSELF MAYOR
IRISH COMEDIES
There wero many amusing incidents in the recent election of chairmen of the various corporations, urban councils, and town commissions in the Irish Tree State (reports the "Manchester Guardian"). Fianna Fail (the Government Party) secured tho election of about 30 chairmen, while General O'Duffy's United Ireland Party secured about 20, the Independents 22, and Labour 7. Three Government Party Mayors were chosen —in Watcrford^ Kilkenny, and Drogheda. In Wexf ord : a Labour Mayor was elected.
At the meetings of four corporations —Clonmel, AVaterford, Sligo, and Drogheda a tie occurred on tho first vote, 'and it was necessary for the senior alderman to exercise his privilege and decide by a casting vote. At Sligo this procedure led to an amusing situation when Alderman John Jinks, a former Mayor, tied with Alderman Novin, and, being the senior alderman, exercised his right and elected himself to the Mayoralty. Thus for the second time within recent years has Mr. Jinks's name become famous. Tho previous occasion was in the Dail, when a no-confidence motion was being put to the House. A few minutes before tho division Mr. Jinks was not in the' Chamber, and, the votes cast for and against being equal, his absence saved tho Government from defeat. Mr. Jinks shortly afterwards lost his seat, but he had gained so much fame that a successful racehorse was named after him.

il gatto

Ah, tradition. Sligo is still served to this very day, by politicians with the same morals, work ethic and integrity. Living history, eh?

Meeja Ireland

Ponster wrote: »

I doubt it. The word was already in use before the incident of 1927 (Google Books comes up with examples from the USA ~1920).

You're right. The OED goes even earlier than that, citing examples from 1911 and 1912. The source probably goes back to an ancient Greek bird called the jynx, which was used in witchcraft.

CDfm

il gatto wrote: »

Ah, tradition. Sligo is still served to this very day, by politicians with the same morals, work ethic and integrity. Living history, eh?

Very ambiguos comment there.

Does that mean Alderman Jinks went on the lash or absented himself and disobeyed the party whip out of conscience

It does seem a bit unclear !!!!

And what about Jinks himself -there is very little biographical detail around on him not even photo's !!

EDIT -Alderman Jinks was a supporter of the Irish Volunteers and supported them in 1914 and was very active in Sligo on their behalf.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=2TqWEx1eyOUC&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=john+jinks+of+sligo&source=bl&ots=55abcJajx7&sig=6t4fwrOdCNB_458LW6tA3AwZ2Ao&hl=en&ei=zyq-TK-eOZ2T4gbR49yPAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=john%20jinks%20of%20sligo&f=false

He was also a local Catholic business man. He thought that if Protestant businesses were boycotted then the "minority" would pack up and leave .

The labour movement flourished in Sligo town with its leadership passing from of craft unions to the socialist ITGWU. Irish labour has been portrayed as increasingly hostile to the Irish party; one of the new forces which cast the party aside. However, a labour/party alliance dominated politics in Sligo town in the years before 1916. Its achievements were substantial and relied on the active support of senior local party figures, particularly Daniel O'Donnell and John Jinks. Here, the lead was taken by Hibernians, who were vigorous, aggressive and self-renewing throughout the period. The key leitmotif particular to Sligo town, of conflict between the town's Protestant minority and Catholic majority, was played throughout. By early 1916, the alliance had reformed under an anti-war banner. Sinn Fein's ranks in Sligo town came to contain not just trades unionists and former Irish-Irelanders, but also many Hibernians, shopkeepers, merchants, professionals, and clerics.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/oso/4838462/2005/00000001/00000001/art00007

Mellor

Meeja Ireland wrote: »

You're right. The OED goes even earlier than that, citing examples from 1911 and 1912. The source probably goes back to an ancient Greek bird called the jynx, which was used in witchcraft.

Iynx (latin) was a figure from ancient greece, she was supposedly changed into a wryneck bird (given the latin name iynx) after she cast a spell on Zeus.

Later, these birds were used to cast spells and curses in witchcraft due to their spinning neck.

CDfm

There seems to be a bit more to John Jinks than meets the eye and from what I am seeing maybe his reputation is unfairly tarnished.

Ponster

CDfm wrote: »

There seems to be a bit more to John Jinks than meets the eye and from what I am seeing maybe his reputation is unfairly tarnished.

You wouldn't happen to be related to him or something?

CDfm

Ponster wrote: »

You wouldn't happen to be related to him or something?

No - I am a bit into my footnotes and Jinks career in Sligo covered a very interesting period.

Local politics and rivalries translated on to the big stage and picked up internationally. Labour & Fianna Fail were trying to oust Cumman na nGael etc.

This guy said no. The little guy stood up to DeV effectivelly.

He was ballsy enough to vote himself in as Lord Mayor in 1934.

Maybe he needs to be rehabilitated.

Is there any reason that John Jinks should not be in our Top 10 Irishmen

So who was he and did he make Dail speeches etc and what really happened.

CDfm

I got this from the Dail Database - showing his occupation- Alderman Jinks subsequently joined Cumman na nGaedhael ( nobody is perfect).

Mr. John Jinks
Profession: Auctioneer and Licensed Grocer
Party: National League (National League members of the 5th Dáil)
Membership
House Number Constituency
5th Dáil Leitrim-Sligo
Details
Defeated in the September 1927 election.

So now we know that there will be some natural enemies opposed to the Alderman due to the partisan nature of politics.

It also indicates to us that he was pro-treaty, the National League was also allied with the Unionists and were "anglophiles" - so local issues in his constituency is a very credible explanation here.

The Alderman as Mayor in 1914 had also been behind a recruitment drive for the Irish Volunteers even though he was a National Irish Party man -so he was a bit of a maverick and did not always toe the party line.

CDfm

This local history book gives detail on my newly adopted hero in local politics between 1914 & 1921.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~mfarry47/sligowar.pdf

He first was elected Alderman in 1900 and was from Drumcliff .

brianthebard

Farry is a good historian he has done a number of books about Sligo.

I find Jinx quite interesting for much the same reasons as CDfm. Afaik he was a Trade Union man and possibly the major of Sligo at one point. He is mentioned in the Irish Worker a number of times in the Sligo notes articles of 1912. He is one of those figures who was in the thick of it during his lifetime, Workers movement, volunteers, the first government, etc, but is not a central figure in history, despite as this thread's op has shown, his importance in at least one debate/vote. I find figures like Jinx as or sometimes more interesting than the 'key figures' that everyone knows about and who lose their charcter or meaning through overexposure (for want of a better term).

CDfm

So what really happened on that day in 1927.

Here is a version by Sinn Fein

In 1927 Kevin O’Higgins was shot dead in mysterious circumstances in a Dublin street and the Cumann na nGaedheal regime lost its strong man: some would say its evil genius.
Later that year there was an election, in which Fianna Fáil got a considerable number of seats but not a majority. After some theatrical posturing de Valera and his associates went to Leinster House and took the oath to be loyal to His Imperial Majesty King George the Fifth and His Heirs and Successors.

A curious and farcical debacle was to follow. De Valera had secured the support of a small party called the National League, which was actually the still-surviving rump of the old Irish Parliamentary Party, but which had decided that de Valera was the coming man and it would be prudent to be on his side. With it he would be able to form a coalition having a majority of one.

One of the National League deputies was an Alderman John Jinks of Sligo Town. On the day of the crucial vote in Leinster House, Jinks was approached by the head of the British Legion in Sligo, Major Cooper, and warned that if he were to vote for de Valera the Legion would order a boycott of his ironmongery business. Cooper then took Jinks to a nearby bar, where the editor of the Irish Times, Bertie Smyllie, kept him drinking until the vote was over.

Thanks to this intervention a lame-duck Cumann na nGaedheal administration managed to survive until 1932, when de Valera, in alliance with Labour, came to power. In an election the following year, Fianna Fáil gained an absolute majority
http://www.rsf.ie/nci2.htm

This is Bryan Cooper, who allegedly, nobbled our boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Cooper_(politician)

Protestant Landowner,TD and former Unionist MP who delivered the threat to supposedly intimidate Jinks. He subsequently joined Cummann na nGaedhael.

RM Smyllie, the Irish Times editor, then took him drinking. It seems to me that Alderman Jinks was too wily to be intimidated - he launched the Irish Volunteers in Sligo ffs.

I somehow don't believe that because the death of O'Higgins was the catalyst to the events and this was the Sligo environment;

This is a story of the lives of individuals both Protestant and Catholic as well as communities, groups and organisations. Read about the voting antics of the internationally infamous politician the wily John Jinks. The Protestants who fought for the I.R.A. in the War of Independence and the Civil War. The Nationalist sympathies of W.B. Yeats and the more extreme activities of Countess Markievicz on behalf of the cause of Irish freedom. The businessman George Williams who cooked the books when applying for British compensation. The story of the well known politician, landowner and military officer Bryan Cooper, who although a committed Unionist came to understand the aspirations of his fellow Catholic and Nationalist countrymen and publicly called for cooperation after his experiences in the First World War.
The efforts of Josslyn Gore-Booth and Arthur Jackson to bring industry to Sligo, encouraging new farming practices and establishing manufacturing industries in Sligo. The events which have defined Sligo in Irish history, such as the first election held under Proportional Representation in Ireland or Britain in January 1919 and the events surrounding its first use in the Sligo Borough Election and its results which began the success of the Sligo Ratepayers Association, an organisation which united Protestants, Catholics, Unionists and Nationalists. The setting up of the Sligo Chamber of Commerce by Protestant and some Catholic businessmen in January 1923 at the height of the Civil War in order to promote economic activity. The active involvement by Protestant landowners along with Protestant and Catholic merchants in the commercial activity of Sligo town and especially in the development and maintenance of Sligo port and in the construction of the railways in the county from the latter part of the nineteenth century to the mid twentieth century.

Book Launch – The Protestant Community in Sligo, 1914-49 by Padraig Deignan http://originalwriting.ie/book-launch-the-protestant-community-in-sligo-1914-49-by-padraig-deignan/

So the idea that Major Cooper delivered a threat just does not seem realistic to me.

The part of being persuaded and walking away does, especially if the above describes his constituency.

CDfm

brianthebard wrote: »

Farry is a good historian he has done a number of books about Sligo.

.

Thanks and it was the first time I saw Farry and he is very readable.

In context here, Caesars quote " first in a village , rather than second in Rome" is apt. Now consider that up until 1919 Lord Mayor of Sligo was as good as it got for a local politician on a local popular vote and which was Alderman Jinks constituency since 1900 then it is very logical where his loyalties were.

Don't forget all adult males over 21 and women over 30 did not get the vote in parlimentary elections until 1918.

MarchDub wrote: »

I have a table on the actual numbers of the franchise for all of the then UK -GB and Ireland - and have been trying to cut and paste it from a scan but it doesn't seem to work within this box. For some reason the figures reproduce jumbled together. So here is a summary for Ireland -

757,849 voters in 1900

686,661 voters in 1906

683,767 voters in 1910.

1,926,274 voters in 1918.


The decline from 1900 may have been because of emigration?

CDfm wrote: »

Thanks Marchdub - I pick up more history here than I ever did studying it

So the electorate in 1918 was women over 30 and guys over 21 - so we could probably have to assume it was around 30% of adult males pre 1918.

Would that be about right?

MarchDub wrote: »

Yes all males over 21 and females over 30 got the vote in 1918.

I looked up the 1911 census and I see that the total population for Ireland was was 4,390,219 - 2,192,048 were male and 2,198,171 were female. So can just about figure from that how many males were enfranchised prior to 1918.

The most credible explanation is that either Alderman Jinks was successfully lobbied by a fellow TD and Sligo landowner and the editor of the Irish Times (itself a national newspaper with an almost exclusively Protestant readership) or,as is quoted in the press as saying he made his mind up at the debate -so I wonder who said what to change his mind at the debate.

Now, it would not have gone down very well with DeV a maths teacher who did the sums that he was outsmarted by a few Protestants who were more astute and knowlegeable about what made Jinks tick.

And what a great place to hide in plain sight for a nationalist politician - with a gang of unionists and protestant journo's in a pub.

EDIT - this is the other TD rumoured to have been involved

Jasper Wolfe



Jasper Travers Wolfe was born in 1872, the third of nine children of William John Wolfe, a Methodist shopkeeper and his wife Rachel Wood.

He was educated at the Bishop’s School, Skibbereen and passed the Law Society preliminary exam in 1888. Indentured in the practice of Thomas Downes, he obtained first place in his final exams, was awarded a gold medal and the Findlater Scholarship and admitted as a solicitor in 1893.

His father died in 1894 after a long illness and Jasper established J. Travers Wolfe & Co. shortly after, quickly establishing himself as an expert in land law.

Throughout his life, Jasper held many notable positions including; his appointment as crown solicitor in Cork City and West Riding of Cork from 1916 to 1923; his election to Dáil Éireann as an independent TD three times from his first attempt in 1927 to 1933 (he did not contest the 1933 general election); his presidency of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland in 1940, being the first Cork man to hold this honoured position.

Jasper was a strong supporter of Home Rule, giving a speech at the rally in London in 1912. He was sentenced to death by the IRA three times and yet after the Civil War became a lawyer for the defence of dissident Republicans.

http://www.wolfe.ie/jasper_wolfe.html

CDfm

It is quite a story with real characters Jinks, Cooper, Wolfe & Smilie.

The main players behind the proposed coalition were Johnson Leader of the Labour Party, Redmond of the National League and DeV.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0020/D.0020.192708160004.html

So what was said in the Dail Mr. JOHNSON Leader of the Labour Party :

During the debates on the Public Safety Bill in the Seanad a Senator quoted from a certain American newspaper. I shall not read the quotation, but it was from a newspaper which attacked the present Government, and particularly attacked the late Vice-President. There is in circulation in the country at the present time a copy of a rival American organ containing a most venomous attack upon the leader of the Opposition in this House. It is an attack by name, and brutally refers to the leader of the Opposition, Deputy de Valera, as the real assassin, and inciting quite deliberately to the killing of that assassin. I shall not read the quotations, but I draw attention to them, to show that on one side and the other in America there is an awful feud between two contending elements which have been associated in the past in the promotion of the cause of Ireland. Those newspapers are being circulated in this country, and they have their echoes in the public pronouncements of the protagonists of the two rival parties in this country. Even as recently as Sunday last we had a statement from a responsible Minister, if the newspaper reports are to be relied upon, describing the chief Opposition Party in this House as a party of assassination. I put it to the House that if that spirit is going to prevail in the Government it will certainly provoke a counter-spirit in the Opposition, and what will be the effect on the country if that spirit is going to be behind the administration of the Public Safety Act? I say that the peace, order and good government of Ireland will be more surely promoted by the occupancy of the Government Benches by some party, or a combination of parties, outside either of these contending elements.

Now this is the speach that is said to have swayed Alderman Jinks

Mr. J. WOLFE: Before this debate concludes I desire to mention the reasons which actuate me in taking the course that I am about to adopt. I have listened to this debate with a considerable amount of pleasure and profit. I heard Deputy Coburn speaking in the role of a prophet predicting the downfall of the present Government and setting up in its place a new Government which, he said, would meet with the fate of Mr. Ramsay Macdonald's Government. I do not know how many wakes the Deputy wishes us to attend. Apparently, so far as Deputy Redmond is concerned, he is down and out. Whether Deputy Coburn intends us also to attend the wake of the Labour Party and the wake of the Fianna Fáil Party, I am not so sure. In our country there is a custom that on an occasion like this they send for tobacco and . I thought that perhaps Deputy Redmond, realising his grave responsibilities, would supply the missing link.

1722

[1722] Nobody will accuse me of holding a brief for the Government; I hold none. I owe no thanks to the Government for being where I am now. For two and a half years I suffered persecution at the hands of Government servants. At the last election I suffered, at the hands of their paid organisers the vilest slanders that could have been uttered against any man who had respect for his character and who respected his name. I refer to these personal matters merely for the reason that I think the time has come when, in a matter of this sort, so grave for the future of our country, all personal elements should be eliminated. We should not look, as we have been in the habit of looking, to the unhappy past, but rather to the future. If we are inclined to take an optimistic view of the future, then let us take a more optimistic view; if we are inclined to take a pessimistic view, then let us strive to take a less pessimistic view.

As I understand the position, there are three, but in reality only two, charges against the Government. The Government are attacked, first of all, for having introduced and brought into law the Public Safety Act. If I had been in the House—unfortunately I was not—when this Bill was introduced I would have voted for its Second Reading. I was there during most of the discussion, and took part in the discussion, and I voted against various sections of the Bill, sections which, in my view, interfered with the liberty of the subject to an undue degree. But let us first for a moment consider the circumstances under which that Bill was introduced. It was introduced at a time of a grave national crisis. It was introduced following the foul assassination of a great Irishman, a member of an honoured West Cork family—my own constituents—a family that has given more, probably, to Ireland than any other family in Ireland. He was foully and vilely assassinated under circumstances which must bring the blush of shame to every decent Irishman, no matter what his politics may be, no matter where he says his prayers.

1723

I have never, as my colleague, Deputy Murphy said the other day, been [1723] afraid to denounce murder. I denounced murder when it was unpopular to denounce it. I was never afraid to do it, and I never put any tag in my denunciation of it. I always proclaimed that between the murderer and the man who sympathised with murder there was no distinction whatever: that the sympathiser with murder and the murderer himself are synonymous terms. We may sympathise with murder in very many ways. A man who has cast upon him the duty of denouncing murder and who fails to denounce it is himself a sympathiser with murder and is himself in the same degree as the murderer. Those are my views. There was thrown on the Government at that time the primary duty of taking all the steps necessary to denounce that murder and to find the vile assassins, and in addition to keep free and safe the lives of all the other citizens of this State. They came before this House and told it that, in order to do that, they required a Public Safety Act. Who would refuse them that Act? Who could refuse them without finding on his fingers, clinging to them, the blood of Kevin O'Higgins? I would not refuse them that. To-day at the foundation of this debate you have—and this is the reason why I am going to vote for the present Government—men and sections of men trying to creep into power and trying to rise into power over the dead body of Kevin O'Higgins. I will be no party to that. I will be no party to suppressing what my feelings are.

1724

I say of the Public Safety Act that, while I spoke against sections of it and that while I did not agree with sections of it, and do not still agree with them, despite all, that it was a Bill which the Government were entitled to introduce as the custodians of the public safety, and a measure which no man could reasonably refuse them. It is only fair to say that, in the course of the debate which took place on that measure, and as a result of the debate, the President gave certain concessions and undertakings to those who opposed the Bill. I think I am speaking for the majority of those who opposed the Bill when I say that [1724] we are in no doubt whatever that these concessions and undertakings will, so far as the President is concerned, be carried out both in the spirit and in fact.

The second count against the Government, so far as I understand it, is the Electoral Abuses Act. I hope I am right as regards the title of it. I know I was right in voting against every section of it. I did not approve of the title or of the Bill itself. What was the outcome of that Bill, and what purpose did it achieve? There were outside this House 43 members who could not come in because the taking of the oath which they were required to take would be to them an immoral transaction. That Act brought them in. If the President had only had the good luck to change the title of the Bill and call it a Bill introduced to provide for statutory morality, all the trouble would have been at an end. That, unfortunately, did not occur, but, at any rate, there are in this House 43 members who are prepared to vote for this motion because by reason of that Act they are sitting here this afternoon. I am glad they are here. They represent one-third of the electorate. I wish they had decided years ago to come in here, because I believe we would have had a better Ireland, or, at least, a better Free State if they had been here. You would have had an Ireland and a Free State as free from crime as it is to-day. That was the difficulty that the Fianna Fáil Party had. The oath has been got rid of by the members of the present Government, and because they have got rid of that one primary difficulty they are to be turned out of office. I am against that on grounds of that sort.

1725

The other fundamental principle of the Fianna Fáil Party, as I understood it, was that we were to have the government of Ireland by Irishmen. I was always in favour of that. We were told that, in addition, it was to be free from any interference by Englishmen or by England. I was in favour of that once anyone could see that it was a sound economic proposition. What have we to-day? We have a motion brought forward—let us have no sham or humbug about what the issue is here, [1725] but let us face the facts—which cannot have the support of the 43 members of the Fianna Fáil Party, unless they are going to tear up the second leaf in their programme. We are going to have the Dáil ruled over by an Englishman. I am off that job. I will have nothing to say to it. I have not yet reached the stage when I will confess for one moment that the Free State is so bereft of intelligence that we cannot get an Irishman to adopt the principle of Fianna Fáil, and have Ireland governed by Irishmen.

1726

There is just one other matter that I wish to refer to. Deputy Johnson has complained that Bills have been passed only by a minority of this House. I agree with him, but he stopped there. Whose fault was that? He did not tell us where lay the fault or where lay the remedy. I say that the remedy was found by the members of the Government who succeeded in bringing in the 43 absent members. He also told us that he has got the strong feeling that there should be a combination excluding the two largest Parties in the House, and that you will never get satisfactory government until that principle is carried into effect. He forgot to give us the most useful addendum which he has got up his sleeve, and that is that the minority must be ruled by himself. I desire now to touch on a personal matter between Fianna Fáil and myself. It was only two or three months ago I discovered as a fact that five followers of Fianna Fáil had for a period of four years been banned from their houses; they were banned as outlaws and as men accused of murder. I took it upon myself on the first public opportunity that presented itself, to stand up and protest in public on behalf of these men who were innocent. Two of them have since been found absolutely innocent. They were followers of Fianna Fáil, but I was not ashamed to do justice to them. What happens now and what happened then? Deputy Johnson, in this House, without the assistance of any Public Safety Act, and without giving me any opportunity to defend or explain my position, wanted the late Minister for Justice to cast me into prison without trial and without a hearing. Still he complains [1726] of the Public Safety Act. That was his treatment of me because I had the piuck to stand up in defence of five followers of Fianna Fáil, and yet apparently Fianna Fáil are going to answer Deputy Johnson by saying: “You who have done that, you who tore up the Constitution, you who tried to cast a fellow citizen into jail when no Public Safety Act was passed, we are going to make you, an Englishman, President of the Constitution.” As far as I am concerned I will not stand for that. Let the responsibility of it be on those who are going to do it. I take no responsibility for it.

Now this is Mr Wolfe, former crown prosecutor who escaped assassination and according to a Wiki owned a newspaper in Skibbereeen that gave bad press and warnings to the Tsar of Russia

An incident with Solicitor Jasper Wolfe (later Teachta Dála for West Cork) was described by another solicitor Willie Kingston in Skibbereen Historical Journal. Willie Kingston was a cousin of Jasper Wolfe, Solicitor and Crown prosecutor in Skibbereen. Wolfe at the time had friends in both camps. In April 1921, Wolfe, Kingston and Miss Brown motored to Durrus where he had a case at Petty Sessions. Kingston had been in Bantry earlier where he saw two men coming towards him, one saying to the other 'that's him’, he thought it was a case of mistaken identity. Later he met Jasper at the hotel and a man came out of the shadows and peered at his face. Jasper had met (Bawnie) T.T. McCarthy, cattle dealer earlier and offered him a lift to Skibbereen. They all went to Durrus in Jasper's car driven by a chauffer and had tea in Miss Brown's mother's house. Leaving Durrus for Caheragh McCarthy was in front with Jasper but his profile indicated him as a cattle dealer rather than the Crown Prosecutor. In Caheragh as they rounded a corner a whistle was blown violently suggesting the man was running and giving a pre-ordained signal. Kingston and Miss Brown crouched down but nothing happened. Jasper had a few drinks and slept through the entire episode. When they got back to Skibbereen they heard that an ambush was being laid for Jasper, he thought that the unexpected lift to the cattle dealer had the effect of calling off the ambush. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Wolfe#cite_note-eyeontsar-1

This shows Alderman Jinks in a totally different light.

CDfm

All I am missing now is an Alderman Jinks picture - I have searched the internet and cant see him anywhere.

brianthebard

Just to confirm, Jinks was mayor of sligo 4 times.

http://www.sligoborough.ie/AboutUs/MayorsofSligo/

Can't help with a picture unfortunately.

CDfm

brianthebard wrote: »

Just to confirm, Jinks was mayor of sligo 4 times.

http://www.sligoborough.ie/AboutUs/MayorsofSligo/

Can't help with a picture unfortunately.

For shame -they have left out 1934 :mad:

How do I complain. ????

EDIT -located a pic on page 15.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~mfarry47/sligowar.pdf

brianthebard

email them. It says michael nevin was mayor in 1934 though?

CDfm

brianthebard wrote: »

email them. It says michael nevin was mayor in 1934 though?

I shall - Alderman Jinks deserves it and he does come accross as a likeable and principle guy and he is not on Find a Grave either!!!

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

I shall - Alderman Jinks deserves it and he does come accross as a likeable and principle guy and he is not on Find a Grave either!!!

You mean he rose from the dead?

Snickers Man

His story appears in Gene Kerrigans "Great Little Nation".

Kerrigan is less than charitable to him calling him "the type of person your grandmother would call a 'grab all'" and labelling him the "original gobdaw TD".

Kerrigan's story describes how he was "persuaded" by Bertie Smyllie, editor of the Irish Times and Bryan Cooper, a former Unionist MP and hagiographer of the Tenth Irish Division in Gallipoli, to abstain from the vote and that there was a strong suspicion that drink was involved.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

You mean he rose from the dead?

It would not be a bad thing -there are a few questions I would like to ask him.:D

Snickers Man wrote: »

His story appears in Gene Kerrigans "Great Little Nation".

Kerrigan is less than charitable to him calling him "the type of person your grandmother would call a 'grab all'" and labelling him the "original gobdaw TD".

Well maybe it is time to rehabilitate our "Little Irelander" who grew up in an Ireland where 10% of the population lived in mud huts.

His associate Bryan Cooper had strong views on an integrated Ireland

This insight was echoed in the words spoken in Dáil Eireann on 15 February 1924 by Major Bryan Cooper, Independent T.D. for Co. Dublin:

It is my very deep and profound conviction…that we cannot set up a Chinese wall around the country, or establish an exclusive civilization. If we wish to do that, let there be no wireless broadcasting [...]. In the past-the distant past-we influenced Europe profoundly and I hope it will be our lot to so again. We shall not do it by pursuing a policy of isolation and by shutting out the education that comes from European civilization (Dáil Debates 6.1120).

The occasion was a debate on the Second Interim Report of the Special Committee established by the Dáil to investigate the structures and financing of a broadcasting service for the Free State. What is significant about this debate is that, while ostensibly it was concerned with the mechanisms for establishing a broadcasting service, in reality it broadened out to address wider issues of broadcast policy and its relationship to cultural identity. In particular, the debate was concerned with the potential of broadcasting to mediate and promote notions of national consciousness as well as its power to disseminate cultural expression and values from outside. For at the centre of the debate lie the aspirations of an emerging post-colonial nation and its apprehensions about a form of cultural imperialism associated with the power of broadcasting, only half- glimpsed at the time, but the nonetheless clearly enunciated. The fact that ‘the Chinese Wall’ which he warned about was indeed constructed around the new state and Ireland entered a forty year period of economic and cultural isolation. The new medium of radio broadcasting was mobilised behind this cultural project of ‘nation-building’ (McLoone 8). http://www.ijasonline.com/JOHANNA-DUFFY.html

And I have shown earlier that Alderman Jinks was a modern guy and Brian has references to him being involved in promoting the Labour movement in his town.He also promoted the Volunteers but he also so the the Unionists and Protestants as being his constituents
Bryan Cooper who died in 1930 was a commited parlimentarian and friend of Yeats and Marciewicz and no one would doubt their commitment to the new state and his widow gave Ceann Comhairles Bell to the Dail in his memory

This bell is a half size reproduction of the ancient bell of Lough Lene Castle, presented to Dáil Éireann in 1931 by the widow of a former member of the House, Major Bryan Cooper. The original bell was found at Castle Island, Lough Lene, Castlepollard, County Westmeath in 1881 and is now in the National Museum. http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/tour/kildare06.asp

Kerrigan's story describes how he was "persuaded" by Bertie Smyllie, editor of the Irish Times and Bryan Cooper, a former Unionist MP and hagiographer of the Tenth Irish Division in Gallipoli, to abstain from the vote and that there was a strong suspicion that drink was involved.

Gene Kerrigan is a very witty writer and his racy prose is very entertaining journalism and this is a good example

The notion of bringing over Betty Windsor, a relic of a medieval and primitive form of government, to somehow legitimise our neighbourly relationships is rather quaint.

It wasn't at all untypical of Alderman Jinks to make a stand on an issue that crossed party lines -like his promotion of the Irish Volunteers when Mayor. Sligo also had a very integrated Protestant and Catholic Business Community in the Chamber of Commerce and Ratepayers Association.

His links with the Volunteers and the Labour Movement may have caused people to overlook him and count on his vote.

In fact, from the limited information I have been able to raise on him as a person it is far more likely that he was convinced by Wolfe's speech and abstained thru absence just as he said.

Now the booze story seem's like a bit of spin.That he was lobbied and abstained is a more likely explanation.

There is a bit of "My name is Jinks, John Jinks 007" about it.

The story itself would make a great play !!!!!

CDfm

To further cast doubt on the Alderman Jinks & Smylie theory the Evening Post of August 23 1927 has "that very odd man,John Jinks of Sligo,mysteriously disappeared at the last moment"


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19270823.2.40&l=mi&e=

---

10-PubMetaEP-141----1LEVY--

So a contemporaryaccount by a non Irish Times journalist who is not a fan has him at the Dail immediately prior to the vote casting more doubt that Protestant Porter was in anyway responsible.

In 1927, for instance, the minority government of Cumann na nGaedheal (precursor to Fine Gael) faced a vote of no confidence from Fianna Fáil, which had entered parliament for the first time since the beginning of the civil war five years earlier. A swift count of declared positions indicated that the government would fall by one vote. And yet, when it came time to vote, the National League’s John Jinks was mysteriously missing. The result was a tied vote in the lower house of parliament, the Dáil, with the Speaker’s casting vote saving the government. Jinks’s absence was rumoured to be at least partly the work of an independent TD (as MPs are known in Ireland), Jasper Travers Wolfe. Jinks had been taken on a tour of Dublin’s finest hostelries and, worse for wear, was last seen boarding a train to Sligo. And so was born the expression, “Twas Jasper, and not Jinks, saved the Irish nation.” http://inside.org.au/independents%E2%80%99-days/

So it is obvious that Jinks was at the Dail to hear Wolfe immediately before the vote.

What happened afterwards may have been a celebratory tour of Dublins finest or even Monto with whoever but all accounts have him at the Dail going missing just before the vote.

Infamous Dail ‘walk-out’ saved the Government


It was described as one of the greatest sensations of early political life in this country.

Deputy John Jinks from Sligo caused a political bombshell by abstaining in a crucial no confidence vote which would have brought down the Cosgrave Government on Tuesday August 16th 1927.
The Government hung on with the casting vote of the Ceann Comhairle but in reality it was the Sligoman’s abstention that saved the day for Cosgrave.

Jink’s, a National League Deputy, was the centre of wild speculation that he had been kidnapped to keep him from voting. Rumours swept the country and headlines such as, ‘The Mystery of Deputy Jinks, the missing deputy’ screamed from several newspapers not only in the U.K. and America.

The sensational affair began when Jinks walked out of the Dail chambers before the vote was about to be called and he couldn’t be found despite a frantic search by colleagues.

There was consternation amongst the opposition who had been confident that the Government would fall.

Jinks was later tracked to a hotel at Harcourt Street having spent the day strolling through the streets of Dublin.

He told reporters he had gone to Dublin with instruction from two thirds of his supporters to vote for the Government.

“I was neither kidnapped nor spirited away. I simply walked out of the Dail when I formed my own opinion after listening to a good many speeches.

“I cannot understand the sensation nor can I understand the meaning or object of the many reports circulated. What I did was done after careful consideration of the entire situation.

“I have nothing to regret for my action. I am glad I was the single individual who saved the situation for the Government, and perhaps, incidentally, for the country. I believe I acted for its good,” said Deputy Jinks.

The Sligo deputy arrived home on Wednesday night by the midnight mail train. A large crowd greeted his arrival. He spent the following morning receiving callers including one proclaiming him “ The Ruler of Ireland.”

Fianna Fail’s Sean Lemass concurred;
“It is for him to throw out the Free State Government when he chooses. It is a John Jinks Government,”
The Cosgrave Government clung to power until September 1927 when a General Election was called.
Alderman Jinks went forward as an independent, suffered a 40 per cent drop in his vote and was defeated.

John Jinks was also involved in controversy in his hometown in 1934 during a Mayoral election.
There was a tie between himself and Ald Nevin a situation normally dealt with now by a draw from the hat but Ald, Jinks being senior Alderman, claimed a casting vote and elected himself Mayor.
Alderman Jinks died on September 11th 1934 and is buried at the Old Cemetery.

By Paul Deering and Harry Keaney
Courtesy of The Sligo Champion
January 2005

http://www.irishidentity.com/extras/dail/stories/walkout.htm

And here we have an Australian Report on the whole vote



An interesting point that there were by-elections pending for O'Higgins and Marciewicz's seats.

Another issue was of course, that Fianna Fail and the IRA were linked and it was rumoured that some of the Fianna Fail TD's arriving to the Dail were armed and expected a confrontation.

So it was not just a simple vote -it was a very tense vote.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=3UF1l4dBRWMC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=fianna+fail+dail+guns+1927&source=bl&ots=p6jrhn24Uf&sig=7XZ36GiddnBS17AxpUOm3sdqgSo&hl=en&ei=I7jCTJTTKIuOjAfH3oG6BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDwQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

CDfm

So there are a lot of important questions to be answered

1. Where did Alderman Jinks go when he left the Dail and with whom

2. What pubs did he visit and why isnt there a Jinks tour in Dublin

3. Why havent Sligo Corporation answered my email about the Mayoral Election in 1934 ??

I smell a conspiracy :eek:

CDfm

Now Brian mentioned earlier about Jinks and the Labour movement.

On page 140 onwards relate the events of the polarisation of Nationalist/Labour politics in Sligo around 1912 and strikes etc with violence and threats of violence against paticipants including Jinks and where there were bitter divisions and Jinks was the guy who came forward to heal the rifts.

There is an account of them here.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=2TqWEx1eyOUC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=john+jinks+in+dublin&source=bl&ots=55abfMbiw2&sig=YJRYUvuM5aX-2JVFGEzS-cdtPCU&hl=en&ei=VDfDTJG0ENjNjAf22PW6BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=john%20jinks%20in%20dublin&f=false

You also get a flavour for a guy who was used to going to Dublin for meetings.

Given this background it is unlikely that he would have reacted to any threat especially one delivered by Bryan Cooper (which I dont believe)but also of a guy that was familiar with Nationalist, Unionist and Labour factions and personalities on a personal level and a hands on basis. Cooper was a bookish sort and was involved in campaigning for returning World War 1 veterans.

The point I am making here is that these two men had something in common in the fair treatment of the ordinary man/worker/soldier.

Wolfe, as I have shown, had also lived thru conflict and luckily missed an assasination attempt.

There also is no real mention of a drunken Jinks being poured on a train -he is variously found in a Harcourt St Hotel and last seen getting on a train. Instead, he talks to journalists coherently and is met by supporters in Sligo. His return in Sligo was expected. Lemass even spoke respectfully of him.

There also is a road Jinks Avenue named after him in Sligo indicating that Sligo people were proud of him.

I think I have fairly much satisfied myself on Alderman Jinks and I am sort of pleased really that he has turned out to be a more interesting and principled character than I had been led to believe.

il gatto

CDfm wrote: »

So there are a lot of important questions to be answered

1. Where did Alderman Jinks go when he left the Dail and with whom

2. What pubs did he visit and why isnt there a Jinks tour in Dublin

3. Why havent Sligo Corporation answered my email about the Mayoral Election in 1934 ??

I smell a conspiracy :eek:

The answer to your third question is that Sligo Corporation are a useless shower and most likely sent your email straight to the trash folder.

CDfm

il gatto wrote: »

The answer to your third question is that Sligo Corporation are a useless shower and most likely sent your email straight to the trash folder.

I am begining to think so too.

Most towns would be proud to have had an Alderman Jinks.

While I haven't been able to find out anything about him as a man, did he marry or have children I think I have come accross a likeble guy who nacted with some integrity when it came to the vote of no confidence in 1927.

I am really glad I started the Jinks thread

Snickers Man

CDfm wrote: »

I am really glad I started the Jinks thread

So am I.

Keep digging and bringing the nuggets to life. It's the ironies and contradictions of history that make it really interesting.

Still think he sounds a bit of a gob****e though. A Jackie Healy-Rae of his day.

CDfm

Snickers Man wrote: »

So am I.

Keep digging and bringing the nuggets to life. It's the ironies and contradictions of history that make it really interesting.

Still think he sounds a bit of a gob****e though. A Jackie Healy-Rae of his day.

In context, the guy was from Drumcliff in Sligo -which around the time that he moved to Sligo c1885 as a grocers apprentice was very poor.

So here is a link to his census return - he was married to Annie who was 4 years older than him and was 41 in 1911. Of their 13 children born only 5 were living.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Sligo/Sligo_North__Urban_/Stephen_Street/756672/

Actually, now that you mention Jackie Healy-Rae I heard his son on the radio a few years ago participate in a discussion on economics (my qualification) and his grasp of economic theory in the midst of the celtic tiger was better than any other analysis I have heard on the Irish media ever from any politician, journalist or pundit.

What they do have in common was that they both had strong local followings and in that sense all politics is local.

Another is, of course, that they understand clientism and the corporate estate.

So calling him the JHR of his day would be a compliment.

CDfm

When Alderman Jinks lived on Stephen Street the Bank of Ireland was new and was built c 1891

Not a bad area

You also had a bicycle shop, ironmongers, musical instrument shop and hotel on the same street.



The Bank of Ireland was ahem the Protestant Bank

The Library (formerly the Methodist Church) was built circa 1850 and refurbished c 1900



He was a publican, undertaker and auctioneer.

Who were his friends and what type of people did he mix with.

1912
As for Jinks, throughout 1912…focused on meetings of the town and North Sligo UIL…He unsuccessfully backed John Treacy, founder of the town’s Gaelic Club, for the job of headmaster of the Technical Schools in July…Roscommon Journal 27 July 1912
Michael Wheatley (2005) Nationalism and the Irish Party: Provincial Ireland, 1910-1916

And on to the Michael Collins connection

Sligo 1914-1921: A Chronicle of Conflict. By Michael Farry.
Another Sinn Féin supporter was John R. Treacy, a native of Youghal, County Cork, who taught in Limerick and Dublin before coming to Sligo in 1904. He taught in Summerhill College and in the Technical School. He had been involved with Griffith and William Rooney in Sinn Féin while in Dublin and was one of the “Apostles of Sinn Féin” in Sligo.
In 1916, the Mayor got another opportunity to voice his sympathy for the executed leaders at a meeting in Sligo to appeal for funds for the Irish National Aid Association. This association was set up to help the dependents of those killed and imprisoned on the rebel side in the rising. The Mayor presided and among the attendance were… J. Tracey…During the month of November the Sinn Féin party in Sligo town started a club in a room in a building in Pound Street. It was called "The Wanderers Gaelic Club" but was popularly called "The Sinn Féin Club". Among those involved were John R. Treacy…
The by-election was fought in January 1917 with polling day on February 3rd. All those on the republican side, though as yet not united, rallied around Plunkett. Many from Sligo tookcpart. Alec McCabe, who had been on the run since the rising took part as did some from Sligo town including probably J. R. Treacy…The Mayor, Mr Hanley and Mrs Hanley welcomed the Countess and a bouquet of roses was presented by Miss Ita Tracey, daughter of the chairman of Sligo Sinn Féin club.
In 1918. on August 15th there was a nationwide protest by the Sinn Féin organisation against the banning of the organisation and the banning of meetings in Ireland. At various places throughout the land speakers read a printed statement from Sinn Féin and as a result were arrested. In County Sligo a large meeting was held outside the Town Hall. The statement was read by J. R. Tracey…As a result of their action on August 15th Professor Tracey and John Hennigan were arrested on Thursday night/Friday morning and taken into custody. They were still in Sligo prison awaiting trial a week later and both men were offered some hours liberty to visit their families on Sunday August 18th. Treacy accepted but Hennigan refused. On Tuesday, 27th August, the pair were removed to Galway prison. On September 5th a meeting of the Sligo Urban Technical Committee was held under the chairmanship of Rev P. Butler. Treacy was a teacher at the Sligo Technical School and had been there for fourteen years. His appointment was part time subject to annual re-appointment. A letter from Treacy was read at the meeting in which he stated that "owing to circumstances over which I have no control I shall be absent for some time". The committee decided unanimously to re-appoint him and to appoint a substitute pending his return. On September 24th at a court martial in Renmore Barracks Galway, Tracey and Hennigan were found guilty. At the trial Hennigan admitted reading the Sinn Féin manifesto and said that he would do so again if the occasion arose. Both men were sentenced to two years imprisonment. In the case of Professor Tracey he was released at the beginning of October on medical advice. When he arrived at Sligo Station he was met by a large crowd of Sinn Féiners and escorted to his home.
In 1919, on St. Patrick's Day another protest meeting was held this time about the prisoners especially those from Sligo: John Lynch, Henry Monson, John Hennigan, John Kelly and Frank O'Beirne. The meeting was held in the Market Yard and the speakers included the Mayor, J. R.Tracey, R. G. Bradshaw, Michael Nevin, J. J. Clancy. Members of the Volunteers were there under the command of Liam Pilkington. The other Sligo prisoner, J. J. O'Connell, did not arrive in Sligo until Wednesday March 19th. His arrival was not expected and there was not a large crowd to meet him. However about fifty Volunteers did turn out and escorted him to the Gaelic Club, Teeling Street… J. R. Tracey president of the club.
In December 1920, among those arrested were John R. Treacy…All these arrests put further pressure on detention space in Sligo and at the end of January some prisoners were moved to Derry. These included John R. Treacy, James Devins, James Doocey and Harry Benson. Also those arrested on January 22nd were moved on February 28th. John R. Tracey of Sligo was moved from Derry jail to Ballykinlar around this time.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~mfarry47/sligowar.pdf
Wednesday, April 3rd 1918 The Jail Journal of Michael Collins
Sligo jail is a short distance from the town. 'Tis generally speak ing like all other jails. It must be old, I think, both from the look and the plan. The cells are smaller than those I knew in Staffordand Wandsworth but the same size as Mountjoy, I think, or the Frongoch clink. The size of course does not make a great difference. One doesn't get appreciably more exercise in a cell 14 by 7 than in one 12 by 7. Mr. Treacy and Mr. Clancy visit me in the evening. The Mayor of Sligo also pays me a visit. I tell him I don't quite like the look of some things.

It is also in Sligo that we discover the Smyllie connection

For 1913 the Mayor was Daniel O'Donnell. The Aldermen were John Connolly, John
Jinks, auctioneer, Thomas Flanagan, merchant, Edward Foley, merchant, J. P. Higgins, merchant
and the Mayor. The councillors were Thomas Scanlon, tailor cutter, Edward Kelly, Dudley M.
Hanley, merchant, John Foley, merchant, Michael McDonagh, shopkeeper, John Hughes,
merchant, James Gray, dealer, Patrick N. White, chemist, Robert Smyllie, journalist, Thomas
Kivlehin, William Gibbons, plasterer, Thomas Hughes, monumental contractor, Edward Harte,
painter, Peter Keeley, clerk, Peter Heraghty, trader, John Lynch, stevedore, Henry Monson,
merchant and Henry Depew, carpenter. Of these six had been in office since the turn of the
century: John Connolly, Edward Foley, John Jinks, Thomas Scanlon, Edward Kelly and Thomas
Flanagan. John Lynch was the President of the Sligo branch of the I.T.G.W.U. and had been
elected for the first time in January 1913. Also elected for the first time then were Union
candidates Monson, Depew, Heraghty and Thomas Hughes. William Gibbons was also a Labour
councillor. Robert Smyllie was the only councillor who could be called unionist.

Wikipedia Entry for RM Smyllie

Smyllie was born in Glasgow. His father was a Scottish journalist who moved to Sligo to edit the Sligo Times. Smyllie was educated at Sligo Grammar School. He entered Trinity College Dublin in 1912. Working as a vacation tutor to an American boy in Germany at the start of World War I, he was interned in Ruhleben Prisoner of War Camp, near Berlin, during the war. As an internee, he was involved in drama productions with other cosmopolitan internees and gleaned a wide political education.
He was also on good terms with the church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._M._Smyllie

1911 Census Entry

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Sligo/Sligo_West_Urban/Knocknaganny__Pt__of_/770123/

It looks like Bert Smyllie of the Irish Times was son of Robert Smyllie of Council Member of Sligo Corporation in 1916. Well some coincidence. No wonder Alderman Jinks died in 1934 when Bert was appointed as Editor of the Irish Times .

On January 23rd at the Corporation meeting Alderman John Jinks was unanimously
elected Mayor with the salary of £130 per year. After his election the new Mayor hosted a
banquet at which he entertained the Corporation members and a number of his friends. Speeches
at the banquet included, according to the local press, many "eulogistic references" to Mr Jinks
including one by Canon E. Doorly Administrator, Sligo, to the effect that "The church in Sligo
was and ought to be very well satisfied with the appointment made that day."

brianthebard

have to say this thread has been really impressive, for the information you've provided and the obvious interest and dedication you show when you start to work on something. Well done CDfm.

CDfm

Thanks Brian.

I 'spose one has to show students that a bit of insomnia and perseverence you can turn up the odd nugget.

Bert Smyllie was no doubt the correspondent that told Alderman Jinks story worldwide. He was Bob Smyllies son. He scooped an interview with Lloyd George at Versailles.

A larger than life character Yeats called him a drunken journalist and disliked him. He transformed the Irish Times.

Wolfe was also a newspaper man of sorts and his family owned a local Skibbereen paper.

Todd) Andrews writing of Smyllie: ‘He integrated the Irish Times and what it stood for with the Irish nation’, in A Man of No Property (here p.95.) Smyllie at war: ‘Smyllie, I found, was showing signs of wear and tear. The Irish Times was down to a single folded sheet - four pages; and he had been involved in a protracted battle with the Censors. A couple of notable victories had been gained, including one which had featured in newspapers all over the English-speaking world. Commenting on one of Churchill’s speeches, in which he had named nine militatry commanders who had won fame in the Middle East, an Irishman’s Diary paragraph noted that only one of them had [133] been British. Three, it went on - Generals Wilson, Dill and Brooke - were Japanese (North Island); four - Generals O’Connor and O’Moore Creagh; Admirals Somerville and Cunningham - were Japanese (South Island). Nobody was later able to discover how this spoof got past the Censors, but they retaliated by becoming even more tough than before.’ (pp.133-34.)

He also hired Flann O'Brien for the Irish Times.

Who knows how the story started that Smyllie influenced Alderman Jinks. I suspect it did not surface until after 1934 when both Cooper & Jinks were dead.

Smyllie was at odds with DeValera and well - the above shows he was fond of a spoof and DeV was a bit humourless.

There also may have been a dark side to it as I read somewhere that Jinks had moved Newspaper Advertising from one paper to one with larger circulation and the looser may have been the paper Robert Senior Edited - the Sligo Times.

Its a small little world isn't it.

Viva Jinks

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Thanks Brian.

I 'spose one has to show students that a bit of insomnia and perseverence you can turn up the odd nugget.

Bert Smyllie was no doubt the correspondent that told Alderman Jinks story worldwide. He was Bob Smyllies son. He scooped an interview with Lloyd George at Versailles.

A larger than life character Yeats called him a drunken journalist and disliked him. He transformed the Irish Times.

Wolfe was also a newspaper man of sorts and his family owned a local Skibbereen paper.



He also hired Flann O'Brien for the Irish Times.

Who knows how the story started that Smyllie influenced Alderman Jinks. I suspect it did not surface until after 1934 when both Cooper & Jinks were dead.

Smyllie was at odds with DeValera and well - the above shows he was fond of a spoof and DeV was a bit humourless.

There also may have been a dark side to it as I read somewhere that Jinks had moved Newspaper Advertising from one paper to one with larger circulation and the looser may have been the paper Robert Senior Edited - the Sligo Times.

Its a small little world isn't it.

Viva Jinks

Not sure where some of this is coming from - do you have any references?

I did my own digging for references on Smyllie. Smyllie was a character no doubt but as regards De Valera he came to respect Dev and shared many of his views. Smyllie became very suspicious of Fine Gael – especially what he viewed as Cosgrave’s too close dalliance with the Blueshirts and drew closer to Dev. Details of these are given in the biography of Smyllie by Tony Gray published about 20 years ago. Gray worked alongside of him in the Irish Times. I have a copy of the book and just consulted it – Syllie wrote an editorial in 1936 agreeing with Dev’s decision to proscribe the IRA and break the ports part of the Treaty and Smyllie further supported Dev’s abolition of the post of British Governor-General in favour of an Irish President.

As regards the Jinks affair Gray says that Smyllie was too much a believer in the system of democracy to have been involved in purposely trying to prevent Jinks from voting – and Donal O’Sullivan dismisses the ‘legend’ of Jinks as just that in The Free State and Its Senate i.e. O’Sullivan claims that Jinks had been warned off the vote by Major Cooper and that Jinks just got on the train back to Sligo in order to avoid the vote.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Not sure where some of this is coming from - do you have any references?

For which bit.

Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted. There are plenty of references to a drunken,mischevious and carousing Bert Smyllie whereas the good Alderman was sober and industrious.

But where is your source for Cooper issueing a threat that he didnt need to make.

The on the razz with Bert sounds funny and like pub talk.

I did my own digging for references on Smyllie. Smyllie was a character no doubt but as regards De Valera he came to respect Dev and shared many of his views. Smyllie became very suspicious of Fine Gael – especially what he viewed as Cosgrave’s too close dalliance with the Blueshirts and drew closer to Dev.

Of course Smyllie drew closer to DeV. Smyllie guided a minority newspaper thru survival -no mean feat in itself, but, Bert liked to think of himself as a" man of affairs" unlike his predessessor as editor Healy (?) and if he wasn't close to or giving the impression of being close to those in power he was not happy.

The growth of the Blueshirts was an unfortunate occurance, but, DeV had paramilitary links and a private army when he came to power. My grandfather who was a Flying Column veteran was called on to escort neighbours to vote in the 1932 elections due to IRA interference at the polling station in Coolea. My grandfather was not a blueshirt.


I am not defending the Blueshirts but Cosgrave was right and DeV took his time with dealing with dissident republicans.

Cosgrave was there in 1916 and like DeV was a veteran of the rising and was with Eamonn Ceannt in St James Hospital -so he was not a pacifist or opposed to the use of arms. Like DeV he was sentenced to death in the aftermath and had the death sentence commuted. He also was a Dublin City Councillor and his dad had a pub and grocery business.

Details of these are given in the biography of Smyllie by Tony Gray published about 20 years ago. Gray worked alongside of him in the Irish Times. I have a copy of the book and just consulted it – Syllie wrote an editorial in 1936 agreeing with Dev’s decision to proscribe the IRA and break the ports part of the Treaty and Smyllie further supported Dev’s abolition of the post of British Governor-General in favour of an Irish President.

I am not saying that Smyllie did not agree with an Independent Ireland. Himself, Yeats, Wolfe and Cooper regarded themselves as Irish and got stuck in in the new state.

If DeV had proscribed the IRA a few years earlier, maybe Willie Cosgrave would not have hitched up with it. You might even say that it acted as a catalyst for DeV to act.

As regards the Jinks affair Gray says that Smyllie was too much a believer in the system of democracy to have been involved in purposely trying to prevent Jinks from voting – and Donal O’Sullivan dismisses the ‘legend’ of Jinks as just that in The Free State and Its Senate i.e. O’Sullivan claims that Jinks had been warned off the vote by Major Cooper and that Jinks just got on the train back to Sligo in order to avoid the vote.

Is that all you have to go on. We might as well say he was in Cosgraves Bar on James St enjoying the crack with Phil & James Cosgrave and getting dropped off for the train by WT himself.

'Cept it didn't happen that way and I am inclined to believe what Alderman Jinks told the newspapers.

He just had too much in common with the pro-government side on every level not to need persuading.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

For which bit.

Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted. .

What? This is how you do research? Dismiss all that you don't want to know about or agree with?

I was asking about all the statements about Yeats, Flann O'Brien and even Smyllie etc. that you put out there. It's not clear where that all came from. It was a valid question IMO and in no way meant to be an idle argument.

CDfm wrote: »

But where is your source for Cooper issueing a threat that he didnt need to make.

I was clearly quoting from Donal O'Sullivan on that one. His work is considered to be of great value.

CDfm wrote: »

I am not saying that Smyllie did not agree with an Independent Ireland. Himself, Yeats, Wolfe and Cooper regarded themselves as Irish and got stuck in in the new state.

I have no idea what you mean by this? What is the reference to Yeats about?

CDfm wrote: »

If DeV had proscribed the IRA a few years earlier, maybe Willie Cosgrave would not have hitched up with it. You might even say that it acted as a catalyst for DeV to act.

This seems to be just your conjecture. A careful reading of the historic record indicates the line that Dev was carefully treading - his decision to outlaw the IRA came only about 2 years after he was in office.

CDfm wrote: »

Is that all you have to go on. We might as well say he was in Cosgraves Bar on James St enjoying the crack with Phil & James Cosgrave and getting dropped off for the train by WT himself.

We might as well say anything if you won't accept any sources that are not inclined to your own view. Again, I was just putting something else out there and using valid sources to do so. I have a number of books to hand that deal with Smyllie and his world.

I wasn't spoiling for a fight here - just inquiring about your sources which weren't very clear to me but if you can't take an alternative point of view on the thread then what is the point of the thread?

I really must say that I think you seem to have a conditioned view against De Valera and won't be budged from that on any account - source material be damned. Am I reading this right??

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

What? This is how you do research? Dismiss all that you don't want to know about or agree with?

My oh my. What did Alderman Jinks ever do to you.

I heard the word Jinxed used and picked up on something my old history teacher said years back on Jinks and who believed Ireland Since the Famine was the Bible.

I was asking about all the statements about Yeats, Flann O'Brien and even Smyllie etc. that you put out there. It's not clear where that all came from. It was a valid question IMO and in no way meant to be an idle argument.

I have always been interested in the area and read widely.

I have picked them up over time but really this was not about any of the above really -it was about Jinks.

Flann O'Brien wrote for the Times. Him & Smyllie got on. Characters and that gives more of a feel for who Smyllie was friends with.

There was a generation gap between Smyllie and Alderman Jinks.

I was clearly quoting from Donal O'Sullivan on that one. His work is considered to be of great value.

I often find historians like O'Sullivan to be partisan and Irish history is notorious for this.

I have no idea what you mean by this? What is the reference to Yeats about?

Yeats is there as a Sligo expat really and someone who had an opinion on Smyllie and that people would know. It is not meant to be a sad reflection on Smyllie more one Sligo expats view on another.

O'Sullivan is not someone I know or would read.

But I didnt know Smyllies Dad and the Alderman served as a councillor in Sligo or was the Editor of the local paper.

This seems to be just your conjecture. A careful reading of the historic record indicates the line that Dev was carefully treading - his decision to outlaw the IRA came only about 2 years after he was in office.

I actually would lean more towards DeV on most things but he had from 1927 to make the decision.

I very rarely am pro-FG but on this I am with Cosgrave -rock and hard place as in "Well Eamonn -if you have a private army I will pick one up too" .

We might as well say anything if you won't accept any sources that are not inclined to your own view. Again, I was just putting something else out there and using valid sources to do so. I have a number of books to hand that deal with Smyllie and his world.

Smyllie was a character & larger than life.

Thats not detracting from the guy.

I wasn't spoiling for a fight here - just inquiring about your sources which weren't very clear to me but if you can't take an alternative point of view on the thread then what is the point of the thread?

The point of the sources is that they are local, the census etc but where possible they mention Alderman Jinks.

I really must say that I think you seem to have a conditioned view against De Valera and won't be budged from that on any account - source material be damned. Am I reading this right??

The thread is not about DeV at all. It is about Jinks - his motivations etc. DeV is a bit player and was not from Sligo.

There is a certain bit of fun behind it because the sources are sparse.I mean WT and Alderman Jinks had the same occupation -as in publican, grocer etc.

I am not saying I am right and I havent cherrypicked the sources on Alderman Jinks - I have looked for information on a little guy who is a footnote in history.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

My oh my. What did Alderman Jinks ever do to you.

I heard the word Jinxed used and picked up on something my old history teacher said years back on Jinks and who believed Ireland Since the Famine was the Bible.


I have always been interested in the area and read widely.

I have picked them up over time but really this was not about any of the above really -it was about Jinks.

Flann O'Brien wrote for the Times. Him & Smyllie got on. Characters and that gives more of a feel for who Smyllie was friends with.

There was a generation gap between Smyllie and Alderman Jinks.


I often find historians like O'Sullivan to be partisan and Irish history is notorious for this.





Yeats is there as a Sligo expat really and someone who had an opinion on Smyllie and that people would know. It is not meant to be a sad reflection on Smyllie more one Sligo expats view on another.

O'Sullivan is not someone I know or would read.

But I didnt know Smyllies Dad and the Alderman served as a councillor in Sligo or was the Editor of the local paper.






I actually would lean more towards DeV on most things but he had from 1927 to make the decision.

I very rarely am pro-FG but on this I am with Cosgrave -rock and hard place as in "Well Eamonn -if you have a private army I will pick one up too" .




Smyllie was a character & larger than life.

Thats not detracting from the guy.



The point of the sources is that they are local, the census etc but where possible they mention Alderman Jinks.



The thread is not about DeV at all. It is about Jinks - his motivations etc. DeV is a bit player and was not from Sligo.

There is a certain bit of fun behind it because the sources are sparse.I mean WT and Alderman Jinks had the same occupation -as in publican, grocer etc.

I am not saying I am right and I havent cherrypicked the sources on Alderman Jinks - I have looked for information on a little guy who is a footnote in history.

Your opening question is enough for me to quit.


TBH you do seem to cherry pick whom you call partisan and who is to be believed. You make up your own bible. But I am just going to leave it at that. I can see that discussing this any further with you is going to go around in silly circles.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Your opening question is enough for me to quit.


TBH you do seem to cherry pick whom you call partisan and who is to be believed. You make up your own bible. But I am just going to leave it at that. I can see that discussing this any further with you is going to go around in silly circles.

Actually Marchdub - it is different.

Jinks abstention in 1927 was about his beliefs and connections and Sligo.

I have not seen one reliable source place Alderman Jinks abducted in any pub by Smyllie or one reliable source place Cooper issueing threats.

Lemass did not think so and it has been attributed to Wolfes speech.

I have actually gone to the trouble of demonstrating with available information what made Jinks tick and how he arrived at his decision.I even showed how he knew Smyllie and how the proposition that he was intimidated by Cooper was just silly.

The truth is very mundane here and I am just having fun with a footnote in history.

What are O'Sullivans sources here ?

He must have sources for this unless he is citing someone else - Gene Kerrigan perhaps ?

CDfm

Not inglorious: Smyllie is the probable subject of Yeats’s phrase, ‘a drunken journalist’ in ‘Why Should Not Old Men Be Mad?’; he wrote in Irish Timescontesting report that W. B. Yeats was incapable of familiarity with friends (7 Feb. 1939) [see under St. John Ervine].

http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/s/Smyllie,RM/life.htm

CDfm

As part of my bid to restore the reputation of Alderman Jinks postumously, I bring glad tidings.He was Mayor in 1934.

I refer to yours of the 21st inst in above regard. Alderman Jinks was Mayor of Sligo

In 1914, 1915 1916, 1921 and part of 1934. Michael Nevin was Mayor for remainder

Of 1934. I have taken this information from the Roll of Mayors which is on display in the

Mayors Parlour, City Hall.

Unfortunately we do not have any old files which might answer your other query, I suggest

You contact the Sligo County Library which holds archive material old newspapers etc.

Their email address is sligocentrallibrary@sligococo.ie

Regards

Mary Dolan
Staff Officer
Sligo Borough Council

Now I have gone back asking that they correct the website

Hi Mary

Thanks-you have answered my question -I have since found out that Alderman Jinks died in September 1934 while in office.

It would be good to see him listed having won the Election and it just shows that the Mayors Roll is incorrect.

He was a TD for a short period in 1927 when he abstained from a crucial no confidence motion which was very controvercial.

It would be good to see the website corrected listing his final Mayoralty- as in fact it was Alderman Jinks who was Mayor and Michael Nevin who was the Alternate. The listing on the website is just confusing.

My interest is really historical and he is a difficult guy to get information on.

Many thanks

I mean how could they do it.

Thats rhetorical Marchdub -you dont have to answer that




IMPORTANT UPDATE

Just got this email from Mary Dolan in Sligo Corporation.

Will discuss with someone in our communications office and see if website can be amended.



Regards



Mary

The Rehabilitation of Alderman Jinks continues.

brianthebard

MarchDub wrote: »

TBH you do seem to cherry pick whom you call partisan and who is to be believed. You make up your own bible. But I am just going to leave it at that. I can see that discussing this any further with you is going to go around in silly circles.

Think about the issue in the same terms as Connolly's supposed kidnapping by the IRB or any number of 'facts' that have been taken as truth with a minimum of evidence to support them in the history of Ireland or history in general. This issue of whether Jinks was in the pub or not is just another example of that sort of phenomenon in history.

MarchDub

brianthebard wrote: »

Think about the issue in the same terms as Connolly's supposed kidnapping by the IRB or any number of 'facts' that have been taken as truth with a minimum of evidence to support them in the history of Ireland or history in general. This issue of whether Jinks was in the pub or not is just another example of that sort of phenomenon in history.

Exactly! Which is why I was attempting to bring another perspective on the issue. That he may not have been in the pub at all - and that other sources reject this idea and support the notion that he just missed the vote because....

OK CDfm - Once more into the breach!

brianthebard

MarchDub wrote: »

Exactly! Which is why I was attempting to bring another perspective on the issue. That he may not have been in the pub at all - and that other sources reject this idea and support the notion that he just missed the vote because....

I think that's what CDfm is trying to establish too, he might just have been a little suspicious of established sources since they seem to have done Mr. Jinks so much harm in the past.

MarchDub

brianthebard wrote: »

I think that's what CDfm is trying to establish too, he might just have been a little suspicious of established sources since they seem to have done Mr. Jinks so much harm in the past.

Well to that point - I would hardly call Tony Gray's biography of Smyllie an established historic source. And CDfm's exact words were "Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted."

Didn't sound like an open mind to me.

Just saying...

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Well to that point - I would hardly call Tony Gray's biography of Smyllie an established historic source. And CDfm's exact words were "Any source that disses Alderman Jinks cannot be trusted."

Didn't sound like an open mind to me.

Just saying...

It seems pretty reasonable to me.

Wasn't it Napoleon that said " History is a set of lies agreed upon"

So why should Alderman Jinks take the hit.

People can admire DeValera for banning the IRA in 1936 and justify or crticize Willie Cosgrave and his tie up with the Blueshirts but put our guy making the same decisions on the fly in 1927 and people say he was either on the beer or intimidated , not ,that he acted with integrity.

The question that should be asked is why the others did not vote this way ?

Were they intimidated or on the beer ?