CWG interesting development!

FLOYDSTER

I had heard rumours but all was confirmed earlier this afternoon!

We shot the Pairs match on the Tuesday and lost out on inner 10's as most know!, thats fair enough!......................

1 Scotland SCO 196 198 195 200 198 194 1181-74x
275 STIRTON Neil 97 99 98 100 100 98 592-39x
264 HAMMOND Jonathan 99 99 97 100 98 96 589-35x

2 England ENG 197 196 197 196 195 197 1178-59x
85 BABB Mike 99 98 99 99 97 99 591-35x
106 WILSON Richard 98 98 98 97 98 98 587-24x

3 Australia AUS 197 196 199 193 192 197 1174-64x
21 POTENT Warren 100 99 100 98 97 100 594-42x
9 CLIFTON David 97 97 99 95 95 97 580-22x

4 Northern Ireland NIR 196 198 197 192 198 193 1174-61x
227 DUFF Gary 97 99 98 97 100 97 588-34x
228 HALL Matthew 99 99 99 95 98 96 586-27x

but on the prone individual the next day (Wednesday) this happened!!

Bib Name CGA Series 1 2 3 4 5 6 Total Remarks

106 WILSON Richard ENG DSQ

A panel on his jacket didnt pass the recheck!!

Just something to think about!!;)

rrpc

Oh dear!

That's unfortunate for everyone concerned. I've used that equipment to test jackets and if you hit the wrong spot, you can get a fail. There are a number of places they always check (the back lower panel being one) and some of those areas get very little wear and can remain very stiff.

Would you be happy getting a medal that way? I know if it was beta blockers or something like that, I'd have no qualms but jacket stiffness is a tough call.

Sparks

Argh! Nightmare!

What make and model of jacket was it do you know Floydster?

tac foley

Getting everybody to shoot in T-shirts is the only answer.

Such ultra-specialised clothing as this is supposed to be made to 'fit' the international same rules. So one day it passes and the next day it doesn't?

BS.

What do the manufacturers have to say?

tac

IRLConor

Some of the manufacturers sell jackets that break the rules initially but which will become compliant after some wear. If a jacket made like that is just on the point of turning from illegal to legal then you'll get different results when you test different parts of the jacket.

These issues are well known by those who shoot at that level (and by anyone who has tried getting into a brand new jacket!) so it's a pity that this particular shooter made it to the CG without getting his jacket checked thoroughly enough to find the problems.

As for shooting in t-shirts, well, whatever about prone rifle, air rifle and 3P would need at least some support to avoid destroying the backs of the competitors. Once you allow any support, you end up back where you started in a kit arms race.

rrpc

tac foley wrote: »

Getting everybody to shoot in T-shirts is the only answer.

Such ultra-specialised clothing as this is supposed to be made to 'fit' the international same rules. So one day it passes and the next day it doesn't?

BS.

What do the manufacturers have to say?

tac

The problem is that the materials used would almost always fail 'out of the box'. There's a trade off between long term stiffnesss and passing the regs. Generally an athlete will have been checked many times, but it often happens that a new entrant may not have had that safety net. It's incumbent on the NGB/athlete concerned to check all this stuff before a major international, but as some can be very inclined to 'push' things, it's not always a given.

It took a disqualification at the Modern Pentathlon youths international in Dublin two years ago for one national federation to (reluctantly) adjust their squad's air pistol trigger weights :rolleyes:

tac foley

IRLConor wrote: »

As for shooting in t-shirts, well, whatever about prone rifle, air rifle and 3P would need at least some support to avoid destroying the backs of the competitors. Once you allow any support, you end up back where you started in a kit arms race.

My comment was made somewhat light-heartedly, and intended to show a degree of exasperation.

I am a rifle and pistol shooter, and have been since early childhood, and I fully understand the problem [read - ludicrous situation] here, but I'm also one that doesn't either aspire to such levels, or shoot that well either.

In spite of my lack of skill, I STILL ensure that whatever kit I use fully conforms to the requirements of the rules at my level.

tac

FLOYDSTER

I'm not sure of the make and model of jacket, I'll see if I can get an idea from any pics!;)

I intentionally went through equipment control before the comp even though I had my jacket tagged for this very reason!!, I also got picked for random testing after the pairs event which added insult to injury after not a great shoot!! lol:D

Deffo wouldnt be happy if things changed now after this length of time!, although you can be sure other countries would have no hesitation lodging a complaint if it was to thier benefit!!;)

demonloop

Would they not have had to fail his jacket during the pairs for the scores to be DQ'd?

Don't think a DQ in the singles would count against other events.

That said, it was of course the same jacket

Sparks

It'd be interesting to see if this was the traditional leather/canvas style of jacket or one of the more modern composite jackets...

FLOYDSTER

Sparks wrote: »

It'd be interesting to see if this was the traditional leather/canvas style of jacket or one of the more modern composite jackets...

Only pic I found at the mo!

It wasn't me!

Looks to be a Thune Adventure, same as my jacket.

Sparks

Thune.
Say no more!

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Thune.
Say no more!

They do tend to play a little close to the line alright...

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

They do tend to play a little close to the line alright...

Yeah, but usually from the wrong side of the line!

Sandy22

Richard Wilson, eh?

I don't belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve it.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, but usually from the wrong side of the line!

Going to have to run my one through equipment control at some point to make sure it's okay. Sadly nowhere near where it's going to be important at the moment, but it wouldn't hurt to know either.

Sparks

Can't say it's a standard thing to do IWM, but I know whenever I ran equipment control, new Thune kit (jackets, pants, boots, anything) set off mental red-flags So definitely, test before use!

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Can't say it's a standard thing to do IWM, but I know whenever I ran equipment control, new Thune kit (jackets, pants, boots, anything) set off mental red-flags So definitely, test before use!

I'll have you know that my Thune jacket would pass the test with flying colours .

Very flexible after 14 years :eek:

dCorbus

Was planning to get one of the Thune Adventure jackets myself fairly shortly - How long do they take before they move safely into the realms of surety vis-a-vis equipment control?:eek:

Would hate to miss out on a medal in Cape Town, Brisbane, or some other lovely sunny place in 520 weeks or so, just because my jacket wasn't floppy enough - that would really annoy me, problems, problems, problems......!!!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

Was planning to get one of the Thune Adventure jackets myself fairly shortly - How long do they take before they move onto the legal side?:eek:

We'll run EC on mine and find out. Bear in mind that they're climate sensitive too. It might well have been fine the day beforehand.

Sparks

Plus, there are things you can do to reduce the stiffness in the canvas - hence the blowtorches, hammers and the liberal use of sharp edges you see near the equipment control area at larger matches

dCorbus

Grand so....that's me sorted.:rolleyes::rolleyes::D

Sparks

Just don't be in the jacket while using the blowtorches

LCrawford

Thune himself is reported to have said 6mths for proper passing.

DSQ only relates to match where you were tested. yesterday is gone.........

For a small fee I will test gear, say a 100 euro actual donation to the WTSC or DURC electronic target funds,

IWM- yes ESTs not left handed fullbore rifles:D:D

It wasn't me!

LCrawford wrote: »

Thune himself is reported to have said 6mths for proper passing.

DSQ only relates to match where you were tested. yesterday is gone.........

For a small fee I will test gear, say a 100 euro actual donation to the WTSC or DURC electronic target funds,

IWM- yes ESTs not left handed fullbore rifles:D:D

Don't tease, I found this in Germany last night. Perfect, if I weren't stoney broke!

demonloop

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Don't tease, I found this in Germany last night. Perfect, if I weren't stoney broke!

There are opportunities in life that only come up once. That is one.

It wasn't me!

demonloop wrote: »

There are opportunities in life that only come up once. That is one.

Yes it is. Spent over a year looking for that stock. And now, not a hope of having the cash, at all. Bit gutted, to say the least. Would love the 6BR barrel and action too, once I get the scores up, to shoot 300m prone.

bunny shooter

What purpose/s does the jacket serve?

There has been mention of back injuries without it in this thread :eek:

Sparks

Basicly, it serves the same purpose as a weightlifter's belt bunny. When standing, you're supporting an offset asymmetric load of 5.5kg with your spine under torsion and tension in two axes; without stabilisation, you'll injure yourself. In the prone position, it provides an attachement point for the sling and distributes the weight of the heavier (8kg+) rifle across both shoulders instead of on one arm.

If the matches were shorter, you might get away without the kit. I can do ten or so shots without the jacket/trousers/boots, and hold the seven ring (the eight on a good day). But afterwards, the small of my back feels like something's very, very wrong, no matter how much core strength work I do in the gym (what's a muscle going to help when part of the shot routine is to ensure all the muscles aren't tensed?).

It wasn't me!

bunny shooter wrote: »

What purpose/s does the jacket serve?

There has been mention of back injuries without it in this thread :eek:

In prone, it provides a dimension of support across the shoulders and lower back which would otherwise be under strain. Not huge, but it's cumulative. In standing, you're supporting an asymmetric load of up to 8kg for up to an hour and a quarter, loading your back to take the weight. Muscular training is vital, but even with huge amounts you'll suffer long-term damage without properly cut clothing. The trousers serve the same function, while giving better ground contact in prone.

Sparks

(BTW, standing air rifle = 5.5kg; standing smallbore rifle = 8kg + recoil; standing 300m = 8kg + serious recoil).

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

standing 300m = 8kg + serious recoil).

Well, about as much as a .223, even in a standard rifle weight (5.5kg), less in the heavier free rifle. It's really not tough, though for the course of fire and the size of the targets, it's very challenging indeed to shoot well with it.

Sparks

Nope, I don't agree - I don't care how manly your shoulder is, the recoil from even a smallbore rifle in ISSF 3P is going to do damage if you're unsupported and shooting properly because all your muscles are relaxed and your back is under torsion and multiple-axis tension. 6mmBR recoil into a spine that's twisted and bent back and to the side with all the muscles relaxed - that's a good reason for a well-fitting jacket, right there.

When you take a shot with a .300 win mag or a .308 or whatever, you're leaning into it and tensed up to stay that way; with the ISSF 300m stuff you're not, you're upright and neutral and relaxed and the rifle's just cinched into you so you take the full whack of the recoil and have to flex with it. Different setup entirely.

bunny shooter

Bit different to classic rifle & the other types of shooting I do so

Didn't realise those rifles were that heavy or that the matches were/could be that long in duration.

Makes sense now alright :cool:

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Nope, I don't agree - I don't care how manly your shoulder is, the recoil from even a smallbore rifle in ISSF 3P is going to do damage if you're unsupported and shooting properly because all your muscles are relaxed and your back is under torsion and multiple-axis tension. 6mmBR recoil into a spine that's twisted and bent back and to the side with all the muscles relaxed - that's a good reason for a well-fitting jacket, right there.

When you take a shot with a .300 win mag or a .308 or whatever, you're leaning into it and tensed up to stay that way; with the ISSF 300m stuff you're not, you're upright and neutral and relaxed and the rifle's just cinched into you so you take the full whack of the recoil and have to flex with it. Different setup entirely.

Aye, the whole thing about phsyically training for the strong core is to allow you to flex properly. I agree though, with proper clothing and proper training you'll take it fine. Without it, you'll do damage with or without recoil.

bunny shooter wrote: »

Bit different to classic rifle & the other types of shooting I do so

Didn't realise those rifles were that heavy or that the matches were/could be that long in duration.

Makes sense now alright :cool:

Oh aye, the standing match in the 3P is an hour and a quarter. The full match is nearly four hours long. That's why you need support. Holding up 8kg for that long, training a few times a week and competing regularly, you'd destroy yourself. Even a prone 60 shot match is an hour and a quarter long.

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Didn't realise those rifles were that heavy or that the matches were/could be that long in duration.

It's probably the biggest regularly-encountered danger in ISSF shooting; because it's "just" air rifle and "just" smallbore rifle and "just" 6mmBR instead of bigger cartridges, people sometimes think there's no risk and use bad positions to shoot it, or don't warm up or stretch properly or use ill-fitting jackets, or whatever. Chronic back problems (or chronic nerve damage like I got) ensue as a result.

FLOYDSTER

This sport is looking more sand more dangerous!!, were are my lawn bowls???:D

Sparks

'Tis well enough for some, you lot get to lie down all the time

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

'Tis well enough for some, you lot get to lie down all the time

It's not the lying down that's the problem, it's the getting up afterwards