M50 thread

Aquarius34

Geogregor wrote: »

Wow, what a rant. Do you have some personal issues with the NRA?

Dublin is not LA or Houston. Do you seriously think that 5-levels stack would be solution there??

I don't have personal issues with the NRA, I do think they are a joke however. Billions has been wasted on road infrastructure and this country (for it's size) still doesn't have a proper integrated transport system. As I said before I could go on and on. But I think the reality here is people need to realise the problems here in order to actually solve them. We are certainly not solving them.


I never mentioned that a 5 level stack was needed. This is Ireland's busiest interchange and there has been a missed opportunity to properly fix this junction from all approaches. Cities half the size of Dublin have a more superior transport system than we have.. My post wasn't a rant. My post was about trying to get people to see how much of a mess our country is and what kind of gombeens are running it.

antoobrien

Aquarius34 wrote: »

this country (for it's size) still doesn't have a proper integrated transport system.

Not the NRAs job but will be made easier if/when the proposal to combine it with the RPA ever happens.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I don't have personal issues with the NRA, I do think they are a joke however. Billions has been wasted on road infrastructure

The NRA would have wasted money if they had listened to people like you and repeated the mistakes of the past, creating substandard roads that have to be upgraded/abandoned less than half way through their design life. The NRA were only set up in 1993, they've done a remarkable job in trying to sort out the mess that multiple LAs have left them with. Instead of just going ahead willy nilly putting in bits of bypass here and there, they instituted a full review of the road needs published in 1998 - which is what the current system and existing plans are based on.

Aquarius34

antoobrien wrote: »

The NRA would have wasted money if they had listened to people like you and repeated the mistakes of the past, creating substandard roads that have to be upgraded/abandoned less than half way through their design life. The NRA were only set up in 1993, they've done a remarkable job in trying to sort out the mess that multiple LAs have left them with. Instead of just going ahead willy nilly putting in bits of bypass here and there, they instituted a full review of the road needs published in 1998 - which is what the current system and existing plans are based on.

You are so short sighted is mind boggling. Building motorways along the old roads was a disastrous idea and again a complete waste of money. That is further proof of the NRA lack of ability to manage our road infrastructure. There is no country in the world that would of spent the money the NRA did for building the motorway network they got away with building. Our motorway network is still incomplete and disintegrated considering the NRA built 1000s km of new motorway. Remarkable job? now you are living in complete fantasy.


There is many of the same view as me on these issues and it's time they start listening to people who are the real brains in this country because there has been no brains running this country since 1916.....``

antoobrien

Aquarius34 wrote: »

You are so short sighted is mind boggling. Building motorways along the old roads was a disastrous idea and again a complete waste of money. That is further proof of the NRA lack of ability to manage our road infrastructure. There is no country in the world that would of spent the money the NRA did for building the motorway network they got away with building. Our motorway network is still incomplete and disintegrated considering the NRA built 1000s km of new motorway. Remarkable job? now you are living in complete fantasy.


There is many of the same view as me on these issues and it's time they start listening to people who are the real brains in this country because there has been no brains running this country since 1916.....``

Really, what should we have done, build straight line roads regardless of the terrain or the needs of the communities that the roads serve?

If you have a strategy lay it out.

Aquarius34

Dublin's only ring road, has taken almost 30 years to complete. They had to go and rebuild the whole road and spend over a billion to fix and remodel the interchanges. The ring road is still congested. The redcow is a mess. Ballymount is too close to the Redcow. Turnpike should of been grade separated. They had to spend hundreds of millions to upgrade the Blanchardstown interchange. That's just one single interchange and it still isn't fully free flow. Which shows just how BAD the NRA and county council's are managing their roles and doing their jobs.

Aquarius34

antoobrien wrote: »

Really, what should we have done, build straight line roads regardless of the terrain or the needs of the communities that the roads serve?

If you have a strategy lay it out.

Motorways are never supposed to follow old two lane roads. Motorways are designed to move long distance traffic between large populations, quickly and effectively while allowing it connect to other population centres along it's route. Our motorway network just follow's all the national primary roads like a spider graph. That is not good road planning. That is just what I call muppets running and planning our road network.

Aquarius34

For example under the NRA's plan (if ever finished) You could go to Cork, via four motorways/HQDCs

M7(M20
M7 (M8)
M7 (M9) (N25)
M11 (N25)

1. Three motorways run in County Meath.

2. Two motorways serve the SE. The M9 been a complete waste of money especially after N10 branch off as far as traffic levels show) Kilkenny should of been linked to the M8 and Waterford should of been linked to NewRoss. Or the M8 should of followed the existing M9 and proceed to Cork along that route.

3. All motorways lead to Dublin and funnel onto the already congested M50.


4. We build roads without planning them properly, Does there need to be more of an explanation to the obvious here. Our road planners just do not know how to build roads in this country, it's that simple to note. They lack foresight, spacial awareness, logic and know-how. I don't know why this is the case, but the obvious should be well realised at this point because what I've seen in the last 20 years has just been shocking. What's more shocking is people can't even see the mess that has been created.


Take a look at the M1 for example a few years after it opening and now they are already widening it as we speak. Look at the Nenagh bypass and many other roads that were recently built up and within a short few years they had to go back again widen the roads. What will it take for you to see objectively on this?

antoobrien

Aquarius34 wrote: »

2. Two motorways serve the SE. The M9 been a complete waste of money especially after N10 branch off as far as traffic levels show) Kilkenny should of been linked to the M8 and Waterford should of been linked to NewRoss. Or the M8 should of followed the existing M9 and proceed to Cork along that route.

I was going to respond to the rest of your ....posts... but when I checked up on the figures for the roads above, I knew it would be a waste of time.

The AADT at Mullinvat was 8570 in 2012 on the M9 and 6733 in 2010 on the old road. Considering traffic levels were falling across the country in that time period, to call an 1,800 increase in average traffic levels a "failure" is an interesting indictment of your vision and objections.

Aquarius34

antoobrien wrote: »

I was going to respond to the rest of your ....posts... but when I checked up on the figures for the roads above, I knew it would be a waste of time.

The AADT at Mullinvat was 8570 in 2012 on the M9 and 6733 in 2010 on the old road. Considering traffic levels were falling across the country in that time period, to call an 1,800 increase in average traffic levels a "failure" is an interesting indictment of your vision and objections.

You well and truly have missed the point.

antoobrien

Aquarius34 wrote: »

You well and truly have missed the point.

The point is that your definition of failure is what the rest of us would call success. That makes the rest logic underpinning of your points, well strange.

Btw, well done on ignoring the mountain ranges in the south.

rameire

M50 thread. Clue for you.
Hysterious.

Aquarius34

antoobrien wrote: »

The point is that your definition of failure is what the rest of us would call success. That makes the rest logic underpinning of your points, well strange.

Btw, well done on ignoring the mountain ranges in the south.

So I would then assume you think building an "octupus" motorway network all leading to a congested rebuilt M50 a success then?. The fact is it was a very badly planned road system and a lot of money and time has been led to waste because of it. I've said it already, you have completely ignored these points and for some odd reason find the need to champion the NRA for their failures and blunders. It something they continue to do time and time again. Yet you say they have been remarkable. That is slapstick comedy to me.

Aquarius34

The NRA know full well they have a bad record. Their signage on motorways is atrocious.

antoobrien

Aquarius34 wrote: »

So I would then assume you think building an "octupus" motorway network all leading to a congested rebuilt M50 a success then?. The fact is it was a very badly planned road system and a lot of money and time has been led to waste because of it. I've said it already, you have completely ignored these points and for some odd reason find the need to champion the NRA for their failures and blunders. It something they continue to do time and time again. Yet you say they have been remarkable. That is slapstick comedy to me.

The reason I'm ignoring it your opinions is that you're ignoring the obvious in how the roads were planned. You have shown total ignorance to the planning regime and who has been responsible for what and when - to the point of blaming the NRA for the M50, which shows how little you know, and you describe me as slapstic. It's cringeworthy really.

Now please stop dragging threads off topic, if you want to discuss the national system I suggest you create a new thread and be ready to defend your theories.

Aquarius34

What will the plan of action be when the M50 can't cope with the extra volumes funnelling into it in the next few years. Traffic is already near capacity at certain sections already. Since it's Dublin's only major road artery it's no brainer that so much commuter traffic use the road. If this artery get's blocked it's not going to be good for Dublin at all.. Especially since Dublin doesn't have a transport system to begin with. It takes one single crash on the M50 to not only bring the M50 into a carpark but the entire city too. That should tell you something.

I'd really like to know why some people on this forum feel eager to champion the NRA.

Aquarius34

antoobrien wrote: »

The reason I'm ignoring it your opinions is that you're ignoring the obvious in how the roads were planned. You have shown total ignorance to the planning regime and who has been responsible for what and when - to the point of blaming the NRA for the M50, which shows how little you know, and you describe me as slapstic. It's cringeworthy really.

The reason you are been ignorant is to your own cause. When people start stating opinions as facts and start cheerleading bad leaders, that's when you know things get cringeworthy, and this is the case with you. You are cheerleading the NRA for all your own reasons and you are point blank ignoring their inadequacy to manage our roads.

Now please stop dragging threads off topic, if you want to discuss the national system I suggest you create a new thread and be ready to defend your theories.

Take your own advice.

Geogregor

Guys, stop discussing with this dude. He is one of those who know everything the best and never change their mind.
No amount of sane arguments will be ever enough.

Aquarius34

Geogregor wrote: »

Guys, stop discussing with this dude. He is one of those who know everything the best and never change their mind.
No amount of sane arguments will be ever enough.

That response is so beyond childish, it's a debate forum, everyone is here to post their views. I never once said I was right or made it appear that I am self righteous. What I've put forward is not my opinion but what are the actual facts of what anyone can see if they opened their own eyes on the topic. If you want to look at reality through smokescreens and rose tinted windows by all means do, but no one else has to follow suit just because you do.

Geogregor

Aquarius34 wrote: »

That response is so beyond childish, it's a debate forum, everyone is here to post their views. I never once said I was right or made it appear that I am self righteous. What I've put forward is not my opinion but what are the actual facts of what anyone can see if they opened their own eyes on the topic. If you want to look at reality through smokescreens and rose tinted windows by all means do, but no one else has to follow suit just because you do.

Sure, only what you say are facts, anything else is just illusion hmm :rolleyes:

BTW instead posting many posts one under another try to edit your posts. It will make the forum clearer.

Aquarius34

Geogregor wrote: »

Sure, only what you say are facts, anything else is just illusion hmm :rolleyes:

BTW instead posting many posts one under another try to edit your posts. It will make the forum clearer.

Facts are facts, As I said if you want to be ignorant to the facts, that's your choice to do so. I can't overide the facts either just as anyone else can't. I'm discussing the issues with the M50 and the NRA incapability of managing this country's roads. The M50 is one fine example of it. You can stick your head in the ground if you like, I won't as that is not my style. I like to be objective and real.

Quickelles

Aquarius34 wrote: »

It took us 30 years to build the M50 and it's still a mess. Almost 20 km of motorway and 30 years to finish it. Give me paitence please...... We allegedly spent over a billion 5 years ago to upgrade it and that billion wouldn't of have been wasted if we had proper engineers and road planners in the first place.. I still cannot understand how these muppets get away with the mess they have created and even sit here dare to defend themselves after all these years of blatant reckless planning, spending and corruption.. Ireland didn't get the title of been the most corrupt country in Europe for nothing......

The NRA build the roads - they don't create the money to build them. The NRA didn't even exist when the "first" version of the M50 was built!

Since it was created it hasn't been perfect - no human institution, anywhere, is.

But as a VERY experienced driver (through Ireland and Europe for nearly 30 years) - I would rate the NRA's performance in the past 10 years as world class.

They have transformed not just the road system - but the whole area of lines and signs, safety measures - before the NRA we truly did have a third world situation in relation to these basics

The Red Cow is generally fine; there are issues with the exit from the N7 onto the M50 southbound - this is caused by a lack of space - the buildings put up outside the reservation has NOTHING to do with the NRA.

The exit from the Luas complex onto the N7 outbound is poor and there is land available to ameliorate the situation. That should be addressed.

The criticisms of the sharp bends and "up and down" nature - nonsense. Nothing unusual about them across Europe; if people insist on trying to drive through like they are on a race track - don't blame the road.

Aquarius34

Quickelles wrote: »

Since it was created it hasn't been perfect - no human institution, anywhere, is.

Oh ffs, we are not talking about perfection here. Come down to reality please.

But as a VERY experienced driver (through Ireland and Europe for nearly 30 years) - I would rate the NRA's performance in the past 10 years as world class.

Lol.. They had what 10 billion to spend? and still didn't manage to complete the T21 considering they were already meant to finish it in 2006. Billions was made out of the Celtic tiger era and the roads that were buitl was a planned mess. None of the motorways should of been built in the alignments they had been planned as.

The Red Cow is generally fine; there are issues with the exit from the N7 onto the M50 southbound - this is caused by a lack of space - the buildings put up outside the reservation has NOTHING to do with the NRA.

People were complaining about this part of the Redcow even when the road was been redesigned. The NRA must have hearing difficulties because they certainly didn't seem to take notice of the complaints with their redesigns. The Turnpike is also another mess along with Ballymount.

The exit from the Luas complex onto the N7 outbound is poor and there is land available to amelioration the situation. That should be addressed.

Will it. Are you now agreeing with the fact that it is a disaster. A disaster that was "planned" by the NRA.... You call the NRA world class, seriously. They threw an at grade junction in the middle of a five lane inter merging stretch.

Quickelles

Lot of ill-informed opinions there - no facts that I can detect.

And regarding the Luas exit - there is a lot of space for graduated adjectives between "poor" and "disaster".

Aquarius34

Quickelles wrote: »

Lot of ill-informed opinions there - no facts that I can detect.

And regarding the Luas exit - there is a lot of space for graduated adjectives between "poor" and "disaster".

If I offer my opinion I will let you know. I haven't done so yet. What I've put forward is what actually happened and what is known to most people. I know exactly what you're doing and it won't work on me like it does with others you may deal with. Reality is what it is and if you can't deal with it, then it's not anyone else's deal but your own.

Champion parading the NRA again? Do you work for the NRA as well? I'd like to know why else would you champion them? The Luas exit is a disaster, and all you can do is argue over what adjectives are to be used? Lol..

The NRA had the opportunity to ratify the situation when they went back to the drawing board with this interchange around the time of starting the M50 upgrade. They shouldn't have to be asked or warned about these things when it is there job to build, and manage roads. It is there responsibility to ensure roads are up to a modern standard. They didn't do that and this is just ONE fine example above where they haven't done their job. Therefore, they are at fault. This is a road that carries a 100,000 vehicles a day. A left in left off exit was built right beside a major slip road and 4 merging lanes. I am actually very surprised there haven’t been many crashes on this exit yet. Traffic from the city and M50 cutting across 5 lanes is a death trap when you have the M50 to Naas outbound merging onto the mainline as well. So now we have to go WASTE money time and money to FIX something that should of be sorted out when it was supposed to be sorted out. Why do I feel like I have spell out the obvious to people, is there something in the air in this country? I am seriously beginning to think there is because I cannot stand the attitude that goes on in this country. If we were anymore relaxed about reality we'd be good as living dead.

Think back to when the NRA first brought out the plans for the Redcow upgrade. It was shocking enough to even believe at the time the NRA were going ahead with their old layout as if it was going to be just fine. The luas was still at grade with many road movements. The Monastery road was at grade on the mainline. The reason they went back to the drawing board was because people were not having it. It was quite simply a mess that was designed by the NRA. It was a public outcry over what the NRA had first proposed.

So what is going to be done about the situation?

Aquarius34

Instead of arguing back and forth, is there anyone actually interested in coming up with a solution to the problems been raised?. It seems that in this country the word "solution" is a scary word. We are all good at arguing when we want too but when it comes to solutions most tend to go quiet.

L1011

The solution is the DOOR. Letting the M50 become a Dublin Ring Road rather than the intended long distance traffic bypass by building another long distance traffic bypass.

However, if they build the Liffey element of the ORR that'll solve a huge amount of problems, as it'll be N81 to N2.

Aquarius34

MYOB wrote: »

The solution is the DOOR. Letting the M50 become a Dublin Ring Road rather than the intended long distance traffic bypass by building another long distance traffic bypass.

However, if they build the Liffey element of the ORR that'll solve a huge amount of problems, as it'll be N81 to N2.

Yes, but there is still a few problems on the M50 that need sorting, not just for traffic issues but for safety and standard requirement's. ORR should solve a lot of problems if they build a bridge to link it up with the other sections as you've mentioned. It makes only sense to build another Liffey crossing there,. especially even for the sake of connecting for Blanchardstown and Lucan. There is no local road link between Blanchardstown and Lucan at all. But since the M50 is tolled they have been deliberately not wanting for another liffey crossing. That's just corruption speaking again. Money is the drive not common sense or logic. It's not about getting Dublin moving it's about how much money "I can get out of the common Joe soap".

Aquarius34

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Instead of arguing back and forth, is there anyone actually interested in coming up with a solution to the problems been raised?. It seems that in this country the word "solution" is a scary word. We are all good at arguing when we want too but when it comes to solutions most tend to go quiet.

One solution is the "do nothing" option, relative to what was there before, what we have now is a vast improvement. With western economic activity declining or at best flatlining, there's little need for any works that will expand capacity.

It is better to invest in clearing bottlenecks & dangerous junctions elsewhere on the network.

Aquarius34

Deleted User wrote: »

One solution is the "do nothing" option, relative to what was there before, what we have now is a vast improvement. With western economic activity declining or at best flatlining, there's little need for any works that will expand capacity.

It is better to invest in clearing bottlenecks & dangerous junctions elsewhere on the network.

I don't accept this rubbish attitude. That has been used as an excuse over and over. The " no money" card is been used in this country all the time. There is money available what's wrong in this country is greed and corruption. When Ireland had all the money billions seemed to have went missing and the money that was provided for road projects didn't seem to finish the job because what was planned in the T21 hasn't been completed with the "money" that was given towards it.

Aquarius34

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I don't accept this rubbish attitude. That has been used as an excuse over and over. The " no money" card is been used in this country all the time. There is money available what's wrong in this country is greed and corruption. When Ireland had all the money billions seemed to have went missing and the money that was provided for road projects didn't seem to finish the job because what was planned in the T21 hasn't been completed with the "money" that was given towards it.

It's far better to improve/rebuild few dozen sections of bad road, than to spend a fortune on structurally "tweaking" this junction. As for where the money comes from, look to your "empty" pension fund!