technical issue - answers appreciated

booom

here's something that came up in a discussion the other day.... so i'm walking to a permission and have to pass through coillte land to get there. as i'm about to cross over to where i'd usually set up, i see the opportunity to take a shot. question; can i shoot from the coillte land as the quarry (eg.stag) is on my permission? same question in reverse: if i'm on my permission, see the quarry on coillte land(we're only talking 100m here), am happy with the backstop etc. can i take the shot? i know i'm dealing with technicalities here: who's to know which side the treeline the shot came from?;cross the damn treeline; mayby someone here could enlighten me? cheers

Tackleberrywho

booom wrote: »

here's something that came up in a discussion the other day.... so i'm walking to a permission and have to pass through coillte land to get there. as i'm about to cross over to where i'd usually set up, i see the opportunity to take a shot. question; can i shoot from the coillte land as the quarry (eg.stag) is on my permission? same question in reverse: if i'm on my permission, see the quarry on coillte land(we're only talking 100m here), am happy with the backstop etc. can i take the shot? i know i'm dealing with technicalities here: who's to know which side the treeline the shot came from?;cross the damn treeline; mayby someone here could enlighten me? cheers

Don't even think about bringing a firearm across coillte, you'll end up in a world of hurt!

Walk around coillte and ONLY shoot where you have permission!

BELOWaverageIQ

I'm open to correction here but if you fire from Coillte land into your permission you are discharging a firearm on private property without permission and could end up in a world of ****e even if you are cought on Coillte land with a firearm and no stalking permit...... and if you fire from your permission onto Coillte land then you are poaching.

Cass

+1 to Tackleberrywho's and BELOWaveragIQ's posts. You cannot shoot into, on or even bring a firearm onto coilte land (or any land) that you have not got permission to be on.

The only time i think you can enter Coilte land or any other land that you have not gotten written permission to be on is if you hit an animal on land you DO have permission to be on and the animal runs for a bit and drops on adjacent lands. You can go and retrieve the animal, but do not bring your firearm onto the land while retrieving the animal.


I don't know how "legal" all of what i said is, but i'm taking no chances that would compromise my shooting rights or firearms licenses.

booom

fair enough lads, thanks for the quick response.

meathstevie

ezridax wrote: »

+1 to Tackleberrywho's and BELOWaveragIQ's posts. You cannot shoot into, on or even bring a firearm onto coilte land (or any land) that you have not got permission to be on.

The only time i think you can enter Coilte land or any other land that you have not gotten written permission to be on is if you hit an animal on land you DO have permission to be on and the animal runs for a bit and drops on adjacent lands. You can go and retrieve the animal, but do not bring your firearm onto the land while retrieving the animal.


I don't know how "legal" all of what i said is, but i'm taking no chances that would compromise my shooting rights or firearms licenses.

In that case you'd be recovering your property. The deer when alive was nobody's property but since you have lawfully killed it on land where you had permission to do exactly that it has become your property.

Cass

Knew as much about recovering the animal, but my uncertainty comes from the actual legalities of what i and the others have said.

Would like to know if there is "law" about it or just a common understanding. I presume there must be something as you could not leave an injured/dead animal on another person's land simply because it died there and you don't have permission to shoot on it.

Too lazy to go checking statute books, etc. Anyone fancy some "googling".

deerhunter1

booom wrote: »

here's something that came up in a discussion the other day.... so i'm walking to a permission and have to pass through coillte land to get there. as i'm about to cross over to where i'd usually set up, i see the opportunity to take a shot. question; can i shoot from the coillte land as the quarry (eg.stag) is on my permission? same question in reverse: if i'm on my permission, see the quarry on coillte land(we're only talking 100m here), am happy with the backstop etc. can i take the shot? i know i'm dealing with technicalities here: who's to know which side the treeline the shot came from?;cross the damn treeline; mayby someone here could enlighten me? cheers

Well two scenarios,I believe you cannot bring a firearm onto state land without permission, as far as I know you can go through state land to your permission once the firearm is unloaded, bolt removed,etc. I have land to shoot that is surrounded by state forest with a long boreen to the land. I phoned my local WO to clarify my status to access this land to shoot as the landowner was getting pissed off that I was not controlling the deer population. Could not get a straight answer. I contacted coillte who gave me the number of the forestery manager in the area that would allow/not alllow me access, phoned him left messages that was two years ago no response, phoned another WO that I know fairly well long before he became a WO, knew his father for years, every season I zeroed his 22.250 before start of season, explained my situation. His response I quote " why do you want to go up there you have enough land to shoot without worrying about that." I said " that is not an answer" he said " Ill put it this way If I catch you Ill do you". To this day still no clarification,also great spot for a stalk.:cool:

meathstevie

ezridax wrote: »

Knew as much about recovering the animal, but my uncertainty comes from the actual legalities of what i and the others have said.

Would like to know if there is "law" about it or just a common understanding. I presume there must be something as you could not leave an injured/dead animal on another person's land simply because it died there and you don't have permission to shoot on it.

Too lazy to go checking statute books, etc. Anyone fancy some "googling".

I suppose you could use the defence that you didn't want to fall foul of animal cruelty legislation there but I reckon it could be a serious court battle that could go either way if that scenario ever happened in real life.

pedroeibar1

I have not heard of any recent cases so most would be based on old case law in England and there have been many changes since the Swans case of 15hundred and whatever!

OP, you are trespassing if you go onto Coillte land without permission; nor do you have the right to shoot anything on it. Do so and as others have said you leave yourself open to a world of grief & pain.
Under the old laws, (unless changed by recent Irish cases) in general,

• If game is shot and lands dead on a highway, the owner of that highway would have first claim to it.
• If you shoot something on your permission – only wounding it – and it then runs or falls alive onto a neighbouring property where you do not have permission to enter, you could potentially commit a poaching offence. Technically you do not have the right to enter just because it is wounded. However, a defence in that instance would be that you entered for ‘humane reasons.’ (as mentioned by MS)
• AFAIK, if you shoot something on your permission and it runs/falls/lands dead on a neighbouring property , you will own the dead bird/animal but if you enter to retrieve it without permission, a civil offence of trespass could be committed.

Most is plain common sense - while the onus will be on the person bringing the action to prove that you committed an offence, it would not be easy for you to defend your position if you were found far inside a property with a rifle and claimed you were looking for a wounded deer! Anybody bringing a case against you would most likely be either an anti or have a strong motivation (or both) to 'do' you, so it would be costly and painful.
Rs
P.

pedroeibar1

I had this saved - possibily from CAI or NARGC?

For the purposes of the 1976 Act is it an offence to aid and abet in the commission of an offence? Yes, anyone aiding or abetting in the commission of an offence under the 1976 Act is guilty of an offence, Section 69(1).

Is it an offence for a person to enter onto land of which they are not the owner or occupier in order to hunt wild animals or birds with or without a firearm? - Section 44 states that this is an offence and further states that it is an offence to shoot over such land if the same is not done with the permission of the owner.

What can I do if I see someone on my land hunting with a firearm wild birds or animals without my permission? The owner /occupier, the holder of a Section 29(5) licence or the holder of sporting rights has the right to request that the person who is committing a Section 44 offence and is in possession of a firearm furnish them with their name and address, Section 44(2).

Who may prosecute this offence under section 44? The owner occupier of the land, and the holder of sporting rights over the land be that an individual or a person representing a sporting body holding such rights over the land, Section 44(4).

On whom does the onus of proving that the Defendant was on the land without lawful authority lie? - Section 44(7) expressly provides that the onus of proving that the Defendant had no lawful authority to be on the land is for the prosecution. Where it is asserted that there was lawful authority the onus shifts to the Defendant.

pedroeibar1

deerhunter1 wrote: »

........I have land to shoot that is surrounded by state forest with a long boreen to the land. I phoned my local WO to clarify my status to access this land to shoot ........" To this day still no clarification.............

Section 44 of the Wildlife Act of 1976
44.—(1) Any person who not being the owner or occupier of land—

( a ) with a firearm or with a device, instrument or missile mentioned in section 72 (7) of this Act hunts a wild bird or wild animal on the land or moves or drives such a bird or such an animal off the land in order so to hunt it,

( b ) enters on the land for the purpose of so hunting wild birds or wild animals,

( c ) carries on the land any firearm, net, or other weapon, instrument or device capable of being used for hunting a wild bird or a wild animal, or

( d ) shoots over or into the land,

without the permission either of the person who is the owner or the occupier of the land or, in case some other person is entitled to enjoy sporting rights over the land, that other person, shall be guilty of an offence.