ITS finally here?

LeinsterDub

Commuters face cash fare hike in 'smart' system


By Paul Melia

Monday October 18 2010

PUBLIC transport operators will hike the price of cash fares to encourage people to switch to the new 'smart card' system.
The cost of using public transport in Dublin will rise from the middle of next year unless people make the switch to the integrated ticketing system (ITS) which will be rolled out in 2011.
Fares on Dublin Bus currently run from €1.15 to €2.30, while DART fares run from €1.40 to €4. But hikes of up to 10pc could be imposed on cash fares next year.
Last night, director of the Integrated Ticketing Project Tim Gaston confirmed that "differential" fares would be used, adding that the cost of switching to a smart card for regular users would not be prohibitive. "A deposit will be taken when the card is first purchased. That will be modest enough, a few euro," he said. "If there's value on the card you'll be able to take a journey.
"If you've €1 on the card and you take a journey of €4, the card goes into negative €3. When you top-up, the money owed is subtracted.
"Schemes all over the world have some kind of incentive. When they're everywhere and you can use them then there should be a differential in the cash fare."
A source said that cash fares were likely to rise from their present levels as opposed to offering a discount on 'smart card' fares.
"We're creating an all-mode ticket (ITS) and at the time (it's being rolled out), we'll be looking at differential pricing," the source said. "We're probably more likely to put up cash fares than discounting fares. The hope then is that people sign up to it. The convenience element is important, and it's helped if there's a reduction in fares."
Commonly used in other cities, the 'smart card' allows commuters to travel on bus, rail and tram without having to buy tickets for each leg of the journey.
Instead, they pre-pay and wave cards near magnetic readers installed in train stations and tram and bus stops at the start and end of their journey.
A computer system calculates the appropriate fare and deducts it from the customer's account.
First promised in 2002, the ITS system is expected to be fully operational across all public transport systems by next summer. So far €36.6m has been spent. The final bill will be €55m.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/commuters-face-cash-fare-hike-in-smart-system-2383739.html

After god know how many years finally ITS looks to be ready. However all it looks to be a a common card for bus ,dart and luas with out an integrated fair structure

KC61

LeinsterDub wrote: »

After god know how many years finally ITS looks to be ready. However all it looks to be a a common card for bus ,dart and luas with out an integrated fair structure

That is exactly what is planned - each operator will keep their own fare structure.

weehamster

KC61 wrote: »

That is exactly what is planned - each operator will keep their own fare structure.

Yep, and all for the ultra low price of €55m. Wow what a bargain. :cool:

aliveandkicking

It's not integrated ticketing so shouldn't be referred to as that. This is a prepay smart card nothing more.

Propellerhead

In other news, wheel perfected by Irish Government sponsored thinktank :rolleyes:

KC61

aliveandkicking wrote: »

It's not integrated ticketing so shouldn't be referred to as that. This is a prepay smart card nothing more.

You are correct in that statement - however there may be apparently some discounting of the individual trips where a multi-mode (e.g. bus/luas) trip is taken.

It is however the first pay as you go facility that will cover all modes of transport.

But as people here and particularly in the press keep forgetting or choose to ignore, there are already full range of prepaid passes available that cover the various modes of travel within Dublin. The problem is that they do not cover the lower range of fares.

robbie_998

anyone else tempted to test how low you can get into the negatives ? :pac:

Cookie_Monster

robbie_998 wrote: »

anyone else tempted to test how low you can get into the negatives ? :pac:

no. it'll probably end up like the tolls on the M50, pay off you negative within one day or it doulbes etc etc etc.

Why can they not just have a shared fare structure? I mean really why do we still need to have DB vs DART vs Luas and not all be complimentary. Must be the only capital in the world that has such a backwards transport & fare system.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

But as people here and particularly in the press keep forgetting or choose to ignore, there are already full range of prepaid passes available that cover the various modes of travel within Dublin. The problem is that they do not cover the lower range of fares.

It's a limited range.

And this seems like a very limited form of ITS which makes paying the amount we have all that crazier.

loyatemu

robbie_998 wrote: »

anyone else tempted to test how low you can get into the negatives ? :pac:

it'll be the same as the Luas card - once you're into negative credit (or the "reserve") you can't tag on again until you top up.

KC61

monument wrote: »

It's a limited range.

And this seems like a very limited form of ITS which makes paying the amount we have all that crazier.

Care to expand on that?

There are 1 day, 7 day, monthly and annual bus only, rail only, luas only, rail/luas, bus/luas, and bus/rail tickets.

There are monthly and annual bus/rail/luas tickets.

Hardly that limited!

LeinsterDub

KC61 wrote: »

Care to expand on that?

There are 1 day, 7 day, monthly and annual bus only, rail only, luas only, rail/luas, bus/luas, and bus/rail tickets.

There are monthly and annual bus/rail/luas tickets.

Hardly that limited!

Where are they sold? Any where on line?
Found them
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Tickets/2-Journey-Daily-Weekly/Bus--Luas-Tickets/

http://www.ticketmaster.ie/event/1800443C8E8F2FBB?brand=ie_bus

dowlingm

Without a revenue sharing agreement or an arrangement where a Transportation Authority purchases capacity from operators, truly integrated ticketing (where you get credit for a journey with connections across vehicles AND operators) can't happen. Neither of them are easy to negotiate - especially since you have IE, DB, RPA and probably BE in the mix.

We have a similar situation here - imagine if one authority ran DB, LUAS and DART and another ran IE Suburban and BE commuter services.

• The latter organisation (supported by provincial government) is bringing out a smartcard but uses fare-by-distance.
• The former (flat fare including transfers within the same journey) uses cash, tokens and a magnetic card and wants to jump to "Open" payment using RFID credit cards and the like. There is probably a reluctance to hand over payment operations to the other authority too.

Del2005

dowlingm wrote: »

Without a revenue sharing agreement or an arrangement where a Transportation Authority purchases capacity from operators, truly integrated ticketing (where you get credit for a journey with connections across vehicles AND operators) can't happen. Neither of them are easy to negotiate - especially since you have IE, DB, RPA and probably BE in the mix.

They are all the same company bar the RPA and that's owned by the same people who own the others, US.

It shouldn't be that hard for the Department of Transport to sort out the mess as we own them all.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

Care to expand on that?

There are 1 day, 7 day, monthly and annual bus only, rail only, luas only, rail/luas, bus/luas, and bus/rail tickets.

There are monthly and annual bus/rail/luas tickets.

Hardly that limited!

I was agreeing with you -- as you said: "The problem is that they do not cover the lower range of fares." It's limited that way, limited in their attractiveness for the bulk of users. The current adult Dublin Bus tickets are only of use to people who (a) travel longer distances daily or (b) have to make connecting journeys....

Rambler 1 Day Adult €6.00 / Rambler 3 Day Adult €13.30 / Rambler 5 Day Adult €21.00 @ €6 / €4.43 / €4 ...Depending on ticket, cash is cheaper for the vast bulk or bulk of Dublin Bus users who are going from A to B and back. Only of real use if you're rambling or have a very, very rambling commute or going to the airport.

10 Journey Travel 90 Adult €18.50 @ €3.70 a day if you use two a day.€3.70 is 10 cent more expensive a day than paying €1.80 twice a day (€3.60).

And Rambler 30 Day Adult €105.00 @ €3.50 a day. For those paying €1.80 twice a day, it's only a saving of 10 cent a day or €3 a month after a fairly large up front payment for most people.

A different fare system could be better, more attractive and fairer to more people -- ie you pay less or more for daily / weekly / monthly depending on how far you go.

And the ITS is limited because of how it is to work.

dowlingm

Del2005 wrote: »

They are all the same company bar the RPA and that's owned by the same people who own the others, US.

oh dear! You actually believe that don't you? I bet IE could hammer out an agreement with Aircoach faster than the Sister Companies - if they could the IE network map wouldn't have just been severed west of Belview.

antoinolachtnai

The ultimate resolution is to make an order under Section 59 of the DTA Act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0015/print.html#sec59

Cookie_Monster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The ultimate resolution is to make an order under Section 59 of the DTA Act.

or just abolish CIE and sell the parts to the private sector with conditions allowing for smartcards just like London (or anywhere else really). As much as I dislike the idea it can't be any worse than what we've had for the last 50 years.

KC61

At the end of the day it boils down to what the DoT and their political masters want. The London solution I suspect would cost too much in their eyes. They want something that delivers a "one ticket for all modes" but that costs a minimal amount.

KC61

monument wrote: »

I was agreeing with you -- as you said: "The problem is that they do not cover the lower range of fares." It's limited that way, limited in their attractiveness for the bulk of users. The current adult Dublin Bus tickets are only of use to people who (a) travel longer distances daily or (b) have to make connecting journeys....

Rambler 1 Day Adult €6.00 / Rambler 3 Day Adult €13.30 / Rambler 5 Day Adult €21.00 @ €6 / €4.43 / €4 ...Depending on ticket, cash is cheaper for the vast bulk or bulk of Dublin Bus users who are going from A to B and back. Only of real use if you're rambling or have a very, very rambling commute or going to the airport.

10 Journey Travel 90 Adult €18.50 @ €3.70 a day if you use two a day.€3.70 is 10 cent more expensive a day than paying €1.80 twice a day (€3.60).

And Rambler 30 Day Adult €105.00 @ €3.50 a day. For those paying €1.80 twice a day, it's only a saving of 10 cent a day or €3 a month after a fairly large up front payment for most people.

A different fare system could be better, more attractive and fairer to more people -- ie you pay less or more for daily / weekly / monthly depending on how far you go.

And the ITS is limited because of how it is to work.

All true - but I was really focussiing on the multi-mode ticket options in the context of integrated ticketing. Most people go on and on about "integrated ticketing" without realising that there is a range of prepaid tickets that cover multi-mode travel options.

The vast majority of people will use two modes maximum, while lesser numbers will use three. But for those people there are already prepaid tickets in existence.

This project will address those using lower fares, private operators and Bus Eireann (although there are already Medium, Giant and Long Hop weekly tickets that cover BE, IE and DB), and more occasional users.

Most regular users will have a pre-paid ticket already.

Del2005

dowlingm wrote: »

oh dear! You actually believe that don't you? I bet IE could hammer out an agreement with Aircoach faster than the Sister Companies - if they could the IE network map wouldn't have just been severed west of Belview.

No. I've read enough to know how they are run. It was just wishfull thinking that someone who have the balls to sort out the mess between state owned public transport providers.

Carawaystick

KC61 wrote: »

It is however the first pay as you go facility that will cover all modes of transport.

Apart from that not-so-recent-invention cash

KC61

I think that the topic of discussion is prepaid tickets rather than cash!!!

Carawaystick

KC61 wrote: »

I think that the topic of discussion is prepaid tickets rather than cash!!!

It sure as hell isn't about an integrated ticketing system anyway

AlekSmart

It sure as hell isn't about an integrated ticketing system anyway

Indeed Carawaystick,it is to my thinking about how to spend €35 Million on something which we thought was integrated ticketing only to belatedly realize that the folks in charge had a totally different appreciation of the meaning of the word INTEGRATED.

An electronic purse is not necessarily an example of an INTEGRATED anything.

We really needed to pay more attention to the small print in the initial PR material from the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group and the very clear alarm bells and flashing amber signals sent out by the decision to allow seperate operators to develop and introduce their own systems first,then subsequently attempt to integrate the disparate products....that principle alone spoke volumes about what these people thought constituted INTEGRATION.

We really do need a FacePalm smiley......:(

BluntGuy

We've waited a decade for this??

A half-hearted bolting together of an already confusing fare structure.

This is nonsense. What is the NTA doing?

KC61

I do find it rather amusing that this penny is only dropping now - I've made this point several times here over the past 18 months.

Jervis

ITS=Integrated Ticketing Scheme (only), not Integrated Fares and not Integrated Transport

mackerski

Jervis wrote: »

ITS=Integrated Ticketing Scheme (only), not Integrated Fares and not Integrated Transport

But why stress the word "Integrated"? The scheme as it will be initially rolled out is a single electronic purse that will allow us to pay a lot of non-integrated fares. Payment alone is "integrated" behind this one purse.

Thing is, each of us already has such a purse, dispensing a mixture of notes and coins. We already integrate our ticket purchases behind this purse. So the key words that spring to mind for the new scheme are "electronic", "cashless" or even "convenient". Integration does not spring to mind, though.

BostonB

The problem can only be the people who come up with this rubbish have no experience of using their own Public transport for these kinda journeys.

dRNk SAnTA

I'd like to take the Michael Collins approach and say that at least this gives us the integration to achieve integration, if that makes sense. :pac:

Once people are using the same card for everything, I imagine it will lead to a lot of pressure on all the bodies to do something about their fare structures.

mackerski

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

I'd like to take the Michael Collins approach and say that at least this gives us the integration to achieve integration, if that makes sense. :pac:

Once people are using the same card for everything, I imagine it will lead to a lot of pressure on all the bodies to do something about their fare structures.

While this may be true, it's not nearly good enough. The process should be driven by an end goal of integrated fares, and that should be its deliverable too. You don't have to spend that much taxpayers' money to introduce new technology just to let us pay separate fares the way we always have. Although the Electronic Payment System (EPS, there, a better name for it) delivers marginal improvements in eliminating cash handling, the only good reason for creating the system centrally is if fare integration is on the cards.

BostonB

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

I'd like to take the Michael Collins approach and say that at least this gives us the integration to achieve integration, if that makes sense. :pac:

Once people are using the same card for everything, I imagine it will lead to a lot of pressure on all the bodies to do something about their fare structures.

so never then?

Capt'n Midnight

aliveandkicking wrote: »

It's not integrated ticketing so shouldn't be referred to as that. This is a prepay smart card nothing more.

Until you can catch a DART from Dun Laoghaire, then a bus to Stephen's Green and the a Luas on one ticket or there is something like the London Zone tickets we won't have ITS.

Capt'n Midnight

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Once people are using the same card for everything, I imagine it will lead to a lot of pressure on all the bodies to do something about their fare structures.

It just means you can buy lots of tickets quickly, it doesn't make travel cheaper. It might show the bodies that people use more than one form of transport. But it doesn't show how many people would use multi-modal transport.

A travel 90 ticket means that multiple journies are about the same price as single one (actually cheaper for longer journeys) , but people are disincentivised to use the DART or LUAS on their journey, since waiting for a connecting bus is free.