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N52 minor upgrade work

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    HGV traffic is much higher north of Mullingar than S/W of Birr. As the N62 is quite a good road from Birr to Roscrea the intelligent thing to do is bypass both of those towns for the N62 and detrunk the N52 west of Birr...it will continue to be N65 s of Borrisokane ( which should be bypassed too but that is not a priority to my mind) . :)

    The N52 is the primary motorway connector and redundancy route, along with the N80 and can so so in Roscrea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    The N62 has been detrunked and diverted onto the old N7 Roscrea bypass which add's to the journey. The N52 should not be detrunked, the N52 needs to be upgraded. Neither the N52 or N62 should be detrunked. Both routes connect the main cities with all the major and medium sized towns in the Midlands, Midwest and north East. The road between Birr, Nenagh and Borriskane should be of a high standard. Half of the route is a good standard and the latter half should be up to a modern standard also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    HGV traffic is much higher north of Mullingar than S/W of Birr. As the N62 is quite a good road from Birr to Roscrea the intelligent thing to do is bypass both of those towns for the N62 and detrunk the N52 west of Birr...it will continue to be N65 s of Borrisokane ( which should be bypassed too but that is not a priority to my mind) . :)

    The N52 is the primary motorway connector and redundancy route, along with the N80 and can so so in Roscrea.

    The N52 serves Limerick/Nenagh and southwest to the Midlands and Northeast. It should never be detrunked or downgraded. It's actually on path of what used to be ancient road between Munster to the Hill of Tara.

    It's just not an acceptable attitude of detrunking a major route because of having a lazy attitude of not upgrading the current road. It seems to be the attitude as usual in this country. This argument is like stating "lets detrunk the N11 and use the M9 for the southeast because the M9 is a much better road". Build a feeder road of the M9 linking New Ross and onto Rosslare. Neglect the N11 then. The way to go folks.


    The N52 serves it's purpose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    The N62 via Roscrea is not an alternative route when it's twice as long for N52 traffic to go via Roscrea than oppose to going it's normal route via Borriskane. The route is twice as long. The road between Nenagh and Borriskane is already a high standard. The next section is between Birr and Borriskane. The route needs upgrading. It should of been upgraded years ago. Offaly county council were allocated money to upgrade their national secondary roads and it's clearly evident the national secondary roads in North Tipperary were neglected. The N62 between Roscrea and Templemore is appalling. So SpongeBob going by your logic we should downgrade that route too. I am sure there are many roads we should detrunk and downgrade. Let's have an lazy attitude it's all about been intelligent here. :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    The N52 serves Limerick/Nenagh and southwest to the Midlands and Northeast.
    The N62 serves Limerick/Nenagh and southwest to the Midlands and Northeast AS WELL

    For the N52 we need to bypass Birr the long way and Borrisokane and upgrade between them...a LOT.

    For the N62 we need to bypass Birr the short way and Roscrea partially and we do not have to spend a lot between them as well.
    It should never be detrunked or downgraded. It's actually on path of what used to be ancient road between Munster to the Hill of Tara.

    The harp that once ....... school of transport studies :D:D:D
    It's just not an acceptable attitude of detrunking a major route because of having a lazy attitude of not upgrading the current road.

    Course it is, look at the N80 NW of Tullamore. A fine road bypassed by a finer road again, and detrunked with my blessings. Why did we build motorways again anyway?? :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    HGV traffic is much higher north of Mullingar than S/W of Birr. As the N62 is quite a good road from Birr to Roscrea the intelligent thing to do is bypass both of those towns for the N62 and detrunk the N52 west of Birr...it will continue to be N65 s of Borrisokane ( which should be bypassed too but that is not a priority to my mind) . :)

    The N52 is the primary motorway connector and redundancy route, along with the N80 and can so so in Roscrea.

    Sure if that's the case we should get rid of the N52 and N62 and just have the M7 and M1 for northeast and soutwest traffic. Afterall it's a "better road" :)

    We should detrunk the N80 all the way from Tullow to to Portlaoise. Detrunk the N81 too. Detrunk the N60 aswell. Oh have a long list here Spongebob going by your logic. Neglecting roads seems what you're advocating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The N62 serves Limerick/Nenagh and southwest to the Midlands and Northeast AS WELL

    No the N62 serves Athlone (Midllands to the south) That's what the road was numbered for. The N52 serves the southwest, Midwest to the Midlands. That is what the N52 was numbered for.
    For the N52 we need to bypass Birr the long way and Borrisokane and upgrade between them...a LOT.

    No it isn't. There isn't hilly terrain there and there are no villages or major river crossing or difficult road engineering jobs between the two sections. The route is called the N52 and it connects major towns along it's route. It should be upgraded and up to a modern standard like any road. The road from Birr to Roscrea was the exact same more than 10 years ago and that section was upgraded because as I said Offally county council got money allocated where as Tipperary county council did not. All one has to do is look at the current state of the N52 and N62 through Tipperary to see that. Birr needs to be bypassed so your argument is null on this one.
    For the N62 we need to bypass Birr the short way and Roscrea partially and we do not have to spend a lot between them as well.

    lol.


    Course it is, look at the N80 NW of Tullamore. A fine road bypassed by a finer road again, and detrunked with my blessings. Why did we build motorways again anyway?? :D

    SpongeBob you don't decide things. This isn't about you.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    SpongeBob you don't decide things. This isn't about you.

    :D

    Lets all get back to the North Tipperary Triangle after the priority section from Ardee to Mullingar is sorted shall we???? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    Roscrea doesn't have wide streets. The main street is wide but the N62 does not use it and H.G.Vs are divereted down south Mall and Rosemary square. Rosmary street is a narrow one lane street. Limerick street can't fit two passing H.G.Vs. South mall is the actual N62 and is two way street but it's not wide enough for two way. There hardly even a footpath on it. The N62 snakes through many junctions through Roscrea. N52 H.G.V don't use this road and if the road was better and quicker the trucks would use it. The N52 is a very high standard from the N52 Nenagh bypass to near Borriskane. That's 20km of good road. The Birr to Borriskane is about 17 km that needs work.

    You're not familiar with Roscrea.
    Sure how would you know that? :p I have family friends in that part of the world and spent the guts of a couple of summers in the area of Roscrea and Templemore, particularly near Clonmore so I'll have none of that "you don't know what you're talking about" malarky. If you looked at the road the N52 took just before it reaches the N2 in Ardee, you'd know what impact medieval streets can actually have. Apart from the south Mall, the route the N62 takes through Roscrea is grand for the most part. More road safety measures for pedestrians would be grand and sorting a couple of the crossroads on the road to Templemore would be helpful (like what was done for the N53 near Hackballscross in Louth) but it's a good road otherwise. And sure the N62 doesn't even go down Rosemary Street, it's one-way also.

    For HGVs, they could easily be sent out the Dublin road and then along the relief road back to the N62. Not a big problem in the grand scheme of things??

    But the jist of my point is that Delvin to Kells needs sorting out first, and badly at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    :D

    Lets all get back to the North Tipperary Triangle after the priority section from Ardee to Mullingar is sorted shall we???? :D

    I can safely say you live in Dublinland, because I really don't think you're familar with these areas.;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sure how would you know that? :p I have family friends in that part of the world and spent the guts of a couple of summers in the area of Roscrea and Templemore, particularly near Clonmore so I'll have none of that "you don't know what you're talking about" malarky. If you looked at the road the N52 took just before it reaches the N2 in Ardee, you'd know what impact medieval streets can actually have. Apart from the south Mall, the route the N62 takes through Roscrea is grand for the most partone for the N53 near Hackballscross in Louth) but it's a good road .More road safety measures for pedestrians would be grand and sorting a couple of the crossroads on the road to Templemore would be helpful (like what was dotherwise. And sure the N62 doesn't even go down Rosemary, it's one-way also.

    For HGVs, they could easily be sent out the Dublin road and then along the relief road back to the N62. Not a big problem in the grand scheme of things??

    But the jist of my point is that Delvin to Kells needs sorting out first, and badly at that.

    Well the fact is from what you posted it seems you don't know Roscrea that well, because you said Roscrea is full of wide streets. It isn't, it's full of Medieval streets. The Main street is wide but that is not on the N62 route as I said beforehand. The reason the N7 bypassed Roscrea many years ago was for this reason, the streets are not capable of handling modern type traffic. Trucks used to get jackknifed in the town. All the streets the N62 use are narrow and twisty. I wouldn't even want to mention just how many junctions and TOTOS it has to use going through the town itself. The N62 then taking the Dublin road out of town just adds to the journey even more. No one in their right mind (Local or long distance users ) will use the N62 as an alternative route for the N52. The N52 is a busy route for local traffic between the towns Nenagh, Borriskane and Birr itself alone, and that as a point deserves the merit that this road needs to be upgraded. H.G.Vs don't use the Roscrea route because it adds to well over double the mileage than the shorter direct route which is the N52. The N52 is in existence because it serves the purpose it exists for. I don't even understand what your arguing this for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The upgrading of the northeastern end of the N52 has to be the priority. And Roscrea has rather wide streets or more crucially there are a choice of streets to use which can prevent large vehicles using the narrow streets entirely. They are the facts, anyone can use Google streetview and ascertain that and I happen to have local knowledge of the area too. Using the Dublin road is not a big diversion and it probably should be done never mind what happens to the rest of the N62. A bypass of Roscrea would be nice but there are many other schemes which have no alternative route, unlike the N62 in Roscrea. Using the Dublin road and then the relief road would add maybe 5 minutes (congestion rarely being an issue in Roscrea nowadays, at least in summer) and would make the town much safer. The poor folks of Carlanstown and Delvin have no such comfort!

    The alternative to using the N52 in Borrisokane to get to beyond Nenagh, by using the road via Roscrea, would be an extra 16 km. But on a far superior road and that includes routing via the Dublin road and the relief road. Better speed limits would mean it's what, a ten minute detour? None of the roads north of Mullingar have such an alternative, except for Ardee to Dundalk. Which has already been detrunked.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    I can safely say you live in Dublinland, because I really don't think you're familar with these areas.;)

    Far end of the N65 actually and I am not prioritising that either as I said. It can wait and wait and WAIT!

    Mullingar to Ardee is a key Logistics/HGV corridor in/for all of Ireland and needs sorting first because of that. Otherwise we end up upgrading every mickey mouse secondary in North Leinster essentially to compensate for the lack of an adequate N52. I don't care much for the N52 down there or indeed the N62, I usually take that nice straight Bog Road south of Cloghan instead on my travels. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    The upgrading of the northeastern end of the N52 has to be the priority. And Roscrea has rather wide streets or more crucially there are a choice of streets to use which can prevent large vehicles using the narrow streets entirely. They are the facts, anyone can use Google streetview and ascertain that and I happen to have local knowledge of the area too.
    They are not facts. The Roscrea is full of narrow streets. The only wide streets is Castle street and Main street. Both roads/streets do not serve R or National routes. Both streets end at narrow streets. Rosemary street and Limerick street.
    the Dublin road is not a big diversion and it probably should be done never mind what happens to the rest of the N62.

    Since It's clearly obvious you are not familar with the town at this stage. You also have failed to realise that the Dublin road has already been classified as the N62. Funny you didn't even know that. The route is about 4 times longer than the current route through the town. If that is not a big diversion, I don't know what is.
    A bypass of Roscrea would be nice but there are many other schemes which have no alternative route, unlike the N62 in Roscrea. Using the Dublin road and then the relief road would add maybe 5 minutes (congestion rarely being an issue in Roscrea nowadays, at least in summer) and would make the town much safer. The poor folks of Carlanstown and Delvin have no such comfort!
    I never mentioned the bypass of Roscrea. I was discussing the N52 which is on topic of the thread.
    The alternative to using the N52 in Borrisokane to get to beyond Nenagh, by using the road via Roscrea, would be an extra 16 km. But on a far superior road and that includes routing via the Dublin road and the relief road. Better speed limits would mean it's what, a ten minute detour? None of the roads north of Mullingar have such an alternative, except for Ardee to Dundalk. Which has already been detrunked.

    It's not far superior at all. It's marginally better and Half of the N52 is already at a good decent standard. It's more than 16 km from my recollection.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    None of the roads north of Mullingar have such an alternative, except for Ardee to Dundalk. Which has already been detrunked.

    Uncontroversially detrunked may I say, the N52 has been c.25km shorter since early last year. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Apologies, I haven't been in Roscrea recently and I didn't realise my suggestion about the N62 was already adopted but nonetheless my memory of the streets themselves is clear. I was there regularly during the 2000s but rarely since. Compared to Norman-founded towns like Trim and Drogheda, the route the N62 now takes through Roscrea is fine. It's obvious to anyone who can even use Streetview never mind those with first hand experience of all these places.

    Anyone concerned enough to check the facts can also use a number of mapping tools, even google's sub-par maps and still get figures for how long a particular route takes. There is assuredly no diversion for long-distance traffic of the N52 north of Mullingar which can compare to an extra ten minutes or so. It's on this basis that I think we need N52 improvements concentrated in Westmeath and Meath, not because I happen to live near them (which I don't) and would benefit more from the improvements.

    The N62 is more than able to meet the long-distance traffic needs that the N52 around Borrisokane serves. The only vaguely useful alternative route from Mullingar to Kells via Ballivor, Trim, Navan and then near Nobber is a very significant detour and in the case of the R162 is hopelessly below standard. The case for where N52 improvements should be targeted is pretty clear cut going on the available alternatives for road users.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Apologies, I haven't been in Roscrea recently and I didn't realise my suggestion about the N62 was already adopted but nonetheless my memory of the streets themselves is clear. I was there regularly during the 2000s but rarely since. Compared to Norman-founded towns like Trim and Drogheda, the route the N62 now takes through Roscrea is fine. It's obvious to anyone who can even use Streetview never mind those with first hand experience of all these places.

    You keep saying the streets are wide and clear.

    They are not wide and clear bar Main street and Castle street. Roads outside the town may be wider but the town centre is full of daggered junctions and narrow streets. The N62 passes through numerous junctions. There is also quite a few right angle turns. Roscrea is a really really bad example in your case of been a wide street town. I am actually wondering if you're taking the absolute piss at this stage.
    Anyone concerned enough to check the facts can also use a number of mapping tools, even google's sub-par maps and still get figures for how long a particular route takes.
    If I can find a tool I'll look it up myself. I can't seem to find such a tool on Google Earth.
    The N62 is more than able to meet the long-distance traffic needs that the N52 around Borrisokane serves. The only vaguely useful alternative route from Mullingar to Kells via Ballivor, Trim, Navan and then near Nobber is a very significant detour and in the case of the R162 is hopelessly below standard. The case for where N52 improvements should be targeted is pretty clear cut going on the available alternatives for road users.

    As I said to SpongeBob. The N62 serves a different function than the N52. Hence why they are different roads. It's way out of the way of been an alternative route and despite the N62 been a better road in some parts N52 traffic and especially H.G.V do not use the N62 as an alternative route and rightly so. The N52 serves it's function and that's the reality here. Nenagh is also bypassed on the current route and Nenagh deserves to be connected to the National secondary route which is the N52. The N52 connects the Midwest to the Mideast and North East of the country. The N62 serves the south of the country to the North and Midlands.

    The conclusion is this, the entire N52 needs to be upgraded and this country needs a good standard national secondary road now and that is where the focus of upgrades should be now. since The majority of the Inter urban's are complete. The Birr bypass can wait a bit too I agree with that, but the Birr Borriskane section needs to looked at. Roscrea bypass is further down the list. The N62 traffic is very sparse around Roscrea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Firstly, I'm not taking the piss. I wouldn't come here to waste anyone's time on the subject and I ought to be banned if I actually were doing so :)

    Google maps has a route planner function, which I set to follow the N62 route as it now stands from Borrisokane to Roscrea and then via M7 to Nenagh. I compared that with the normal suggested route from Borris to Nenagh (via the N52) and the difference I got was 16km, over a better quality national road and motorway for half that route too. I can reasonably surmise the difference in time to use this route is less than 15 minutes. If you have any evidence that disproves this, I'm more than happy to read it.

    For the record, the worst bend in Roscrea that the N62 now traverses is this. https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=roscrea&hl=en&ll=52.954843,-7.796495&spn=0.00773,0.01929&sll=53.32432,-6.251695&sspn=0.243613,0.617294&hnear=Roscrea,+County+Tipperary&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.956168,-7.793914&panoid=S_OULyZT7I8zoXq9kWwagg&cbp=12,9.91,,0,18.72 I don't know how to further show that this route is not a problem for any kind of motorist or vehicle to take, barring the provision of traffic signals. It's a view of the Dublin road from Streetview. A road I've travelled dozens of times especially back when the N7 ran through the town.

    On the basis that the N62/M7 is a viable alternative route, I feel that the dangerous sections of the N52 in the vicinity of Clonmellon, Delvin and also Carlanstown near Kells warrant urgent attention above the rest of the N52. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but no amount of parish-pumping will convince me otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    36.3 miles. (58.41km) from Birr to Nenagh (Carrigtoher) via Roscrea.
    17.1 miles (27. 58km) from Birr to Nenagh (Carrigtoher) Via Borriskane.


    The distance is 31km. The road between Birr and Borriskane still is still holding a lot for upgrades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    36.3 miles. (58.41km) from Birr to Nenagh (Carrigtoher) via Roscrea.
    17.1 miles (27. 58km) from Birr to Nenagh (Carrigtoher) Via Borriskane.


    The distance is 31km. The road between Birr and Borriskane still is still holding a lot for upgrades.
    That is incorrect. http://goo.gl/maps/gR9L5

    The alternative routing that google shows does not include the new N62 alignment via the Dublin road but when I include that, the difference in the two routes is 16.7 km, and the N62/M7 is 1 minute faster according to google maps' calculator...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    That is incorrect. http://goo.gl/maps/gR9L5

    The alternative routing that google shows does not include the new N62 alignment via the Dublin road but when I include that, the difference in the two routes is 16.7 km, and the N62/M7 is 1 minute faster according to google maps' calculator...


    I made an error in writing down the number, somehow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    The fact remains that people do not use the N62 as alternative road because the N62 serves the south and is much longer. If the Borriskane Birr section was upgraded the route would be far faster and more logical to go by. The N52 exist to serve the purpose it's supposed to serve. Nenagh has always been the N52 start point and it will always be that case. It's a vital piece of road that serves the Midwest with the Mideastern region.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,873 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I know this is an old thread but it seems the most appropriate for this. There are several threads relating to specific projects on the N52 but it seems better to use this thread rather than setting up a new thread.

    Meath CoCo last week issued notice for CPO for the N52 Grange to Clontail Scheme;

    If confirmed, the Order will authorise the Local Authority to acquire compulsorily the lands and wayleave described in the Schedule for the purposes of construction of the N52 Grange to Clontail Scheme comprising the construction of a Type 2 single carriageway for a distance of 4.8 km from a location approximately 300m south west of Cassidy’s Cross (N52/R162 junction) to a tie in point approximately 300m north east of Mitchelstown Cross; and associated accommodation and fencing works, landscaping works, surface water drainage/attenuation works and ancillary works in the townlands of Grange, Castletown, Stephenstown, Fringestown, Carnacop, Mitchelstown and Clontail.

    The Part 8 planning documents are here;

    I posted that link in the Greenway thread at that time, pointing out how ludicrous it was that there is a new bridge over the existing N52 but the new stretch of N52 about 50m south of that point will cross the greenway at grade! 



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭cargo


    That would be one of those small little projects that gives a big benefit in terms of it been a very twisty narrow section of very busy road.

    The situation with the greenway seems mad. I see the old railway bridge (that was demolished by an oversized load) has in fact been replaced recently for the greenway. I didnt realize they then had to go back over the road at grade.... mad.... :-)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,873 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    And it gets worse; there are two accommodation underpasses elsewhere on this project but they didn't bother accommodating the Greenway!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    ... and less than 100 m southwest of the crossing, the road is on a 6 m embankment, so there's plenty of height to bring the greenway under. They could have diverted the greenway onto the old road, run it under the new one beside where the culvert C001 is placed, and then rejoined the rail alignment on the other side, as per the dotted orange line on the diagram below


    The figures are the proposed road height, the old road height, and the difference between them; each measurement is 20 metres along the road from the previous one. I highlighted where the culvert will go in yellow, and the greenway crossing in green.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The roundabout on the nobber road will be hugh for safety, i am amased there has not being more crashes at that junction



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Would it be worthwhile putting in a submission about having either a overpass or underpass for the greenway or would they just ignore it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,873 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There is no opportunity to make submissions now, that is just notice that they will execute the CPOs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Driving between Delvin and Clonmellon yesterday I noticed near Ballinlough Castle on the N52 Southbound there seams to be a few hundred metres of new fence line set back in the fields. Don't know if it's prep for road straighting or not



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