Britain's breech of international protocol in its occupation of the North of Ireland

Gerry Asstrix

The following are breeches of UN covenant by Great Britain in their occupation and illegal presence in the North of Ireland, I brought this up in after hours, but decided post it here to get more serious debate going about the issue.

1. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. GA Res. 2200A(XXI), Dec 16th 1966. 21.GAOR Supp. (No 16) at 52, UN Doc. A/6316 (1966). 999 U.N. -S.171 entered into force March 23, 1976. ) Part.1 Art,1(1).

2. The International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights. GA Res. 2200A (XXI). Dec 16th 1966. Dec 16th 1966. 21 GAOR Supp. (No.16) at 49, U/N. Doc. A/6316 (1966), 993 U.N.T.:S.3. entered into force on 3rd of January 1976. Part.1. Art.1. Art 1 (1).

3. The United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples. (Adopted by the UN General Assembly on 14th December 1960). GA Res. 1514/XV, Dec 14th, 1960. Article 4 and Article 6.

4. Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning
Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.G.A. Res. 2625, 25 UN GAOR Supp. No. 28 at 121, UN doc. A/8082 (1970)

Nijmegen

Quickly, call Kof... Oh, wait, what's his name?

Nijmegen

Though if I could ask, how would Northern Ireland be any different under Republic of Ireland rule if the Unionists felt the same about us?

Or how any of it would apply given that

• We signed a treaty in the 1920's about this
• More recently, we passed a small little vote about it in 1998, both sides of the border

bladespin

How can you apply laws from the 1960s to something that happened in the 12th century, by the time those laws were introduced NI was part of Britain,they didn't invade and occupy it after that, it was declared a seperate state and democratically decided to remain part of Britain.

Bottle_of_Smoke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPfVkuPmpc8

LordSutch

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

Britain's breech of international protocol in its occupation of the North of Ireland

I presume you mean 'Northern Ireland'.

imme

:eek: x 214

*yawns*

I'm sure they'll pull out tomorrow:rolleyes:


The present political situation in Ireland (north & south) predates the UN.

mathepac

bladespin wrote: »

... by the time those laws were introduced NI was part of Britain ...

NI was never part of Britain, not even part of Great Britain.

bladespin wrote: »

... it was declared a seperate state and democratically decided to remain part of Britain.

I must gave missed that in all the gerrymandering* that took place. Despite Unionist assertions and aspirations NI is still not part of Britain, nor will it ever be unless they can staple it to the large island to their East.

Have a look at an atlas some time.

*defined and explained in a good dictionary

KeithAFC

What point is this thread trying to tell us?

bladespin

mathepac wrote: »

NI was never part of Britain, not even part of Great Britain.

Eh, yes' it definately is, look at a map.

mathepac wrote: »

I must gave missed that in all the gerrymandering* that took place. Despite Unionist assertions and aspirations NI is still not part of Britain, nor will it ever be unless they can staple it to the large island to their East.

Have a look at an atlas some time.

*defined and explained in a good dictionary

My atlas says it's part of Britain, show me an atlas that says different.

Think you've got your geography screwed up, there are many countries within other countries, Ulster or NI is part of the Island of Ireland but it's part of Britain, at least until they decide democratically they don't want to be, as there's a Unionist majority there that's very unlikely ever to happen.

jock101

LordSutch wrote: »

I presume you mean 'Northern Ireland'.

The six Ulster counties of the United Kingdom!:)

Scoobydoobydoo

bladespin wrote: »

Eh, yes' it definately is, look at a map.

My atlas says it's part of Britain, show me an atlas that says different.

Think you've got your geography screwed up, there are many countries within other countries, Ulster or NI is part of the Island of Ireland but it's part of Britain, at least until they decide democratically they don't want to be, as there's a Unionist majority there that's very unlikely ever to happen.

My understanding is that Britain consists of England, Scotland & Wales only, and that the six counties fall under United Kingdom (of Great Britain & Northern Ireland). Personally, I don't always trust just any map, particularly if, for example, it reads Londonderry instead of Derry.

jock101

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

My understanding is that Britain consists of England, Scotland & Wales only, and that the six counties fall under United Kingdom (of Great Britain & Northern Ireland). Personally, I don't always trust just any map, particularly if, for example, it reads Londonderry instead of Derry.

The city is called Londonderry and the County is called Derry!

jackbenimble

mathepac said:

NI was never part of Britain, not even part of Great Britain.

Correct - it is part of The UK and part of The British Isles.

I must gave missed that in all the gerrymandering* that took place. Despite Unionist assertions and aspirations NI is still not part of Britain, nor will it ever be unless they can staple it to the large island to their East.

Have a look at an atlas some time.

*defined and explained in a good dictionary

Indeed - though generally misunderstood by many in Ireland.

Scoobydoobydoo

jock101 wrote: »

The city is called Londonderry and the County is called Derry!

Obviously I'm referring to the city only. London was added along the way to the original name, but I thought in recent times it was again popularly known simply as Derry.

Ren2k7

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

Obviously I'm referring to the city only. London was added along the way to the original name, but I thought in recent times it was again popularly known simply as Derry.

The city is still officially called Londonderry, while its city council is officially Derry City Council. The Council petitioned the Privy Council in London to have the citys name legally changed but so far have been unsuccessful.

As for the op's suggestion that Northern Ireland is being illegally occupied, the majority inhabitants of the province would say otherwise. As soon as the people of the north decide they do not want to be part of the UK then their wishes will be respected.

Occupation forces rarely heed the opinion of the local population, eg. Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Kurdistan, etc.

junder

The city and the county are both still officially Londonderry

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

What point is this thread trying to tell us?

"Brits out!"


One assumes.

Wolfe Tone

Not the Derry name debate again lads.... lol oscar will throw a wobbler!

LordSutch

bladespin wrote: »

My atlas says it's part of Britain, show me an atlas that says different.

Think you've got your geography screwed up, there are many countries within other countries, Ulster or NI is part of the Island of Ireland but it's part of Britain, at least until they decide democratically they don't want to be, as there's a Unionist majority there that's very unlikely ever to happen.

Either your Atlas is seriously flawed or you don't understand the basics of local geography. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, but it is part of the political entity known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, ergo NI is part of the UK, along with England Scotland & Wales.

Hope this helps

dlofnep

Page 2 and we're already debating city names!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Just so you know there's you can change your settings to have 40 posts per page

Makes reading long threads less tedious

Richard

LordSutch wrote: »

Either your Atlas is seriously flawed or you don't understand the basics of local geography. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, but it is part of the political entity known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, ergo NI is part of the UK, along with England Scotland & Wales.

Hope this helps

Britain is a vague term and can either refer to "Great Britain" of which Northern Ireland is not a part or the UK, which it is.

If a BBC News report is talking about Britain's economy, then it us referring to the whole UK, but if it is referring to Britain's railways, it is probably talking about Great Britain only.

I usually avoid talking about "Britain" for that reason.

getz

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

My understanding is that Britain consists of England, Scotland & Wales only, and that the six counties fall under United Kingdom (of Great Britain & Northern Ireland). Personally, I don't always trust just any map, particularly if, for example, it reads Londonderry instead of Derry.

londonderry or derry both names are excepted for the place on irish passports, both names are correct, londonderry is what the city is calling itself when advertising as the UK city of culture around the world to attract tourism ,

The Saint

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

The following are breeches of UN covenant by Great Britain in their occupation and illegal presence in the North of Ireland, I brought this up in after hours, but decided post it here to get more serious debate going about the issue.

1. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. GA Res. 2200A(XXI), Dec 16th 1966. 21.GAOR Supp. (No 16) at 52, UN Doc. A/6316 (1966). 999 U.N. -S.171 entered into force March 23, 1976. ) Part.1 Art,1(1).

2. The International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights. GA Res. 2200A (XXI). Dec 16th 1966. Dec 16th 1966. 21 GAOR Supp. (No.16) at 49, U/N. Doc. A/6316 (1966), 993 U.N.T.:S.3. entered into force on 3rd of January 1976. Part.1. Art.1. Art 1 (1).

3. The United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples. (Adopted by the UN General Assembly on 14th December 1960). GA Res. 1514/XV, Dec 14th, 1960. Article 4 and Article 6.

4. Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning
Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.G.A. Res. 2625, 25 UN GAOR Supp. No. 28 at 121, UN doc. A/8082 (1970)

Um, do you not see the irony of citing UN conventions when the UK's official title at the UN is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, therefore Nothern Ireland being recognised as part of the UK by the organisation whose conventions you cite?

oncevotedff

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

The following are breeches of UN covenant by Great Britain in their occupation and illegal presence in the North of Ireland, I brought this up in after hours, but decided post it here to get more serious debate going about the issue.

The only hole in your argument is that GB isn't occupying nor maintaining an illegal presence in Northern Ireland any more than it is occupying Northumberland or maintaining an illegal presence in Gloucestershire. The fact that NI is an integral and legal part of the UK is recognised by the UN, the EU and the Republic of Ireland amongst others.

Richard

getz wrote: »

londonderry or derry both names are excepted for the place on irish passports, both names are correct, londonderry is what the city is calling itself when advertising as the UK city of culture around the world to attract tourism ,

I think it's Derry/Londonderry when it comes to the City of Culture (though it was mildly amusing to see Martin McGuinness cheering "Derry/Londonderry" on "The One Show" when the result was announced!

Derry can also be used on British passports (this has been allowed for some time) and both names are allowed on birth certificates. The council, as others have said is "Derry City Council" but the port is Londonderry Port.

Terrontress

Richard wrote: »

Britain is a vague term and can either refer to "Great Britain" of which Northern Ireland is not a part or the UK, which it is.

If a BBC News report is talking about Britain's economy, then it us referring to the whole UK, but if it is referring to Britain's railways, it is probably talking about Great Britain only.

I usually avoid talking about "Britain" for that reason.

Britain is a geographic term and not a political one. As I understand it, Great Britain, Ireland, Isle of Man, parts of Northern France are all part of "Britain".

Like you, I don't think the word "Britain" has much merit and is too ambiguous.

mathepac

oncevotedff wrote: »

... The fact that NI is an integral and legal part of the UK is recognised by the UN, the EU and the Republic of Ireland amongst others.

The Republic of Ireland recognises no such thing as there is no such country. If you are an Irish citizen look at your passport; it names your country.

Happy Monday

mathepac wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland recognises no such thing as there is no such country. If you are an Irish citizen look at your passport; it names your country.

Yes it does - or at least 90% of people recognise NI as part of the UK.
Ireland refers to the 26 counties as the Irish government only has jurisdiction over this part of the island.
Did you not get a copy of the GFA 1998?

Essexboy

I think you mean breach!

As a noun, a breach is something broken off or open, as in a breach in a military line during combat.

“Breech” however, refers to rear ends, as in “breeches” (slang spelling “britches” ). Thus “breech cloth,” “breech birth,” or “breech-loading gun.”

“Once more unto the breach, dear friends,” means “let’s charge into the gap in the enemy’s defences,” not “let’s reach into our pants again.”

Rebelheart

jackbenimble wrote: »

[British occupied Ireland] is part of The British Isles.

Right there, right there is a very desperate British nationalist.

Rebelheart

Richard wrote: »

Britain is a vague term and can either refer to ... the UK.

Er, no it can't. At least not by any educated person. British nationalists with an agenda? - well, sin scéal eile ar fad.

maxxie

jock101 wrote: »

The six Ulster counties of the United Kingdom!:)

The six occupied counties of Ireland

Mike 1972

Great Britain does not occupy Donegal

Thread Fail !

Now that weve cleared that up lets discuss the competing historical claims over Kaliningrad/Königsberg, Silesia, Szczecin/Stettin, Zaolzie, Wilno/Vilnius, Prussia/Whatever its called these days and Eastern Belastok Voblast :rolleyes:

Rebelheart wrote: »

British nationalists with an agenda? .

Someone on the politics board anywhere with an agenda ? Well I never !

Rebelheart

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Great Britain does not occupy Donegal

Thread Fail

Er, no. Your command of the Queen's English just reaffirms Seán Ó Faoláin's quip in the 1940s about the unionists: 'more loyal to the half-crown than the crown'.

If you look a bit closer the OP made the north in 'north of Ireland' a proper noun by capitalising it. That's a very different matter.

Mike 1972

Before you make pronouncments based on bizzare (and O/T) interpretations of the rules of proper nouns it might be a good idea to look up the meaning of the term occupation.

Rebelheart wrote: »

'more loyal to the half-crown than the crown'

You say it like its a bad thing ?

Einhard

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

The following are breeches of UN covenant by Great Britain in their occupation and illegal presence in the North of Ireland, I brought this up in after hours, but decided post it here to get more serious debate going about the issue.

1. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. GA Res. 2200A(XXI), Dec 16th 1966. 21.GAOR Supp. (No 16) at 52, UN Doc. A/6316 (1966). 999 U.N. -S.171 entered into force March 23, 1976. ) Part.1 Art,1(1).

2. The International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights. GA Res. 2200A (XXI). Dec 16th 1966. Dec 16th 1966. 21 GAOR Supp. (No.16) at 49, U/N. Doc. A/6316 (1966), 993 U.N.T.:S.3. entered into force on 3rd of January 1976. Part.1. Art.1. Art 1 (1).

3. The United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples. (Adopted by the UN General Assembly on 14th December 1960). GA Res. 1514/XV, Dec 14th, 1960. Article 4 and Article 6.

4. Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning
Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.G.A. Res. 2625, 25 UN GAOR Supp. No. 28 at 121, UN doc. A/8082 (1970)

Hmmm, I think the UN is pretty big on self determination and democracy at times too. You think we should just overrule the wishes of the majority in the North? Heck, why not just get rid of democracy all the time. Dictatorships are wonderful!

HavingCrack

bladespin wrote: »

Eh, yes' it definately is, look at a map.





My atlas says it's part of Britain, show me an atlas that says different.

Think you've got your geography screwed up, there are many countries within other countries, Ulster or NI is part of the Island of Ireland but it's part of Britain, at least until they decide democratically they don't want to be, as there's a Unionist majority there that's very unlikely ever to happen.

What atlas have you been looking at??

Northern Ireland is considered to be politically part of the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' whether you like it or not (I'm not referring to you personally by the way, just in general). The island of Great Britain comprises England, Scotland and Wales.

Rebelheart

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Before you make pronouncments based on bizzare (and O/T) interpretations of the rules of proper nouns it might be a good idea to look up the meaning of the term occupation.

As it happens I consulted the most acclaimed linguist in the world, Noam Chomsky, on this many years ago, and here's his take on British rule in Ireland, following a visit to the occupied Six Counties:

'....The country is under military occupation. There's no secret about that. There are armored personnel carriers going through the streets, armed blockades right in the middle of Belfast center, etc.... In the Catholic community, listening to the stories was very much like walking around the West Bank a couple of years ago, the same kinds of humiliation and beating and torture. There aren't a lot of ways to have your boot on someone's neck. It always turns out about the same.'

Source: Interview with David Barsamian, 'Rabble: Media, Knowledge, and Objectivity' (1994)

Mike 1972

Quite frankly indulging ones persecution complex by making comparisons with the West Bank is crass, ridiculous and an insult to the civilians of the West Bank. Are you suggesting the Army are firing white phosporus shells into Belfast or blocading supplies of food and medicine ?

Rebelheart wrote: »

There are armored personnel carriers going through the streets, armed blockades right in the middle of Belfast center, etc....

The United Kingdom has an army and its vehicles travel the streets of the United Kingdom.

My Gawd how terrible :rolleyes:

Einhard

Rebelheart wrote: »

As it happens I consulted the most acclaimed linguist in the world, Noam Chomsky, on this many years ago, and here's his take on British rule in Ireland, following a visit to the occupied Six Counties:

Ah right, because being an acclaimed linguist gives one a penetrating insight into the affairs of Northern Ireland?! I think I might pop off now to consult acclaimed geologist Paul Falkowski on the current stand off between Japan and China over territorial claims in the South China Sea. What better man to ask!!

jackbenimble

Rebelheart wrote: »

Er, no. Your command of the Queen's English just reaffirms Seán Ó Faoláin's quip in the 1940s about the unionists: 'more loyal to the half-crown than the crown'.

A quip indeed from Seán Ó Faoláin - if that really was his name (or was he one of those clowns who changed his name to be more Oirish?).

Problem for Sean is that it might or might not be a joke to take the Queen's money when you're loyal to her - but it's definitely a joke (and an Irish one at that) to take her money when you proudly proclaim your disloyalty - a position many Republicans find themselves in in NI today. :rolleyes:

jackbenimble

Rebelheart wrote: »

As it happens I consulted the most acclaimed linguist in the world, Noam Chomsky, on this many years ago, and here's his take on British rule in Ireland, following a visit to the occupied Six Counties:

'....The country is under military occupation. There's no secret about that. There are armored personnel carriers going through the streets, armed blockades right in the middle of Belfast center, etc.... In the Catholic community, listening to the stories was very much like walking around the West Bank a couple of years ago, the same kinds of humiliation and beating and torture. There aren't a lot of ways to have your boot on someone's neck. It always turns out about the same.'

Source: Interview with David Barsamian, 'Rabble: Media, Knowledge, and Objectivity' (1994)

Sounds like Noam was mentally ill and/or hadn't a clue what he was talking about.

KeithAFC

jackbenimble wrote: »

Sounds like Noam was mentally ill and/or hadn't a clue what he was talking about.

Agree. Not got a clue that guy.

Lapin

mathepac wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland recognises no such thing as there is no such country. If you are an Irish citizen look at your passport; it names your country.

Have a closer look at your own passport.
We're European citizens

Ireland is a failed republic.

Can anyone here give me three reasons why we shouldn't rejoin The United Kingdom ?

OS119

Lapin wrote: »

Can anyone here give me three reasons why we shouldn't rejoin The United Kingdom ?

the Irish political system, the weather, and religous nutters.

what makes you think that 4.5million people who vote for political (you could argue they aren't 'political' at all - not left, not right - just populist clan groupings) parties based on what side of the civil war their grandparents were on and who's going to build the bypass would be a welcome addition to the UK political scene?

which is by no stretch of the imagination perfect...

Ireland lost its 'go home to mummy' option when it became independant - Irelands choices since then are for Ireland alone, as are the consequences of those choices. deal with it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

Agree. Not got a clue that guy.

jackbenimble wrote: »

Sounds like Noam was mentally ill and/or hadn't a clue what he was talking about.

I think it is also possible that poster is inferring the wrong meaning from what Choamsky was saying.

He says military occupation but I don't think he means Britain were occupying Ireland in the Irish republican sense. I think he was simply describing the situation on the ground with regard to troops being deployed and the Catholic community feeling oppressed.

deise go deo

Lapin wrote: »

Have a closer look at your own passport.
We're European citizens

Ireland is a failed republic.

Can anyone here give me three reasons why we shouldn't rejoin The United Kingdom ?

How do you judge Ireland to be a Faild Republic?

There is only one reason needed to stop Ireland joining the UK, The vast majority of people in Ireland dont want to.

What benefit would joining the UK bring? Lets look at the part of Ireland under British rule, Do you really want that?

deise go deo

OS119 wrote: »

Ireland lost its 'go home to mummy' option when it became independant - Irelands choices since then are for Ireland alone, as are the consequences of those choices. deal with it.

You make it sound like a bad thing:rolleyes:

mathepac

Lapin wrote: »

Have a closer look at your own passport. ...

mathepac wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland recognises no such thing as there is no such country. ...

I apologise that comprehension of my original point, that there is no such country as "The Republic of Ireland ", has proven too great an intellectual challenge for some other posters. In order to assist posters facing such overwhelming tests of their mental abilities I suggested that they read their passports in order that they might establish clearly for themselves the actual name of the country that issued (and owns) these documents. It seems I overestimated their capacity to follow simple instructions.