Uni degrees should be compulsory for TDs

Fo Real

Too many of our TDs, especially the rural based ones, come across as ignorant, uneducated buffoons (to put it brashly). Jackie Healy Rae and the infamous PJ Sheehan immediately spring to mind, who both incidentally topped the list for claiming expenses during the Summer. PJ Sheehan doesn't know how to deal with the media and doesn't appear capable of conducting interviews. He recently told a journalist to "cop yourself on" when called up on his shocking expenses claims (over €20,000). On the other hand, I don't understand a word that comes out of Jackie Healy Rae's mouth. And that's not an attack on Kerry people. It's a charming accent but take pride in speaking clearly.

The problem is too many of our TDs are farmers and publicans. I therefore propose that it be made compulsory that all TDs should have obtained a university degree before standing for election. Third level education is free in this country so I don't want to hear arguments that college excludes the poor. It only excludes the stupid.

Personally I'd like to see more TDs with a science or business background enter the Dáil. These are the kinds of people that should be working in our various departments - not farmers.

Permabear

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oscarBravo

Fo Real wrote: »

Third level education is free in this country so I don't want to hear arguments that college excludes the poor. It only excludes the stupid.

For various reasons I didn't go to college in the late 1980s when I finished school. I was one of the lucky few who got a job, and worked my way up a career path that culminated in a senior management position with international responsibility and a salary approaching six figures in today's terms. Since then I've been self-employed and now run a successful business.

But you think I'm unqualified to be a TD?

Elevator

I couldn't agree more op

will never happen though

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

Too many of our TDs,(.....)- not farmers.

Snobbery against the rural community, combined with the fallacy that the achievement of a degree in a certain area gives one competence in all others.......

Fo Real

oscarBravo wrote: »

For various reasons I didn't go to college in the late 1980s when I finished school. I was one of the lucky few who got a job, and worked my way up a career path that culminated in a senior management position with international responsibility and a salary approaching six figures in today's terms. Since then I've been self-employed and now run a successful business.

But you think I'm unqualified to be a TD?

If a candidate has proved themselves to be adequately trained in a specific area, they then could be considered to be put up as an election candidate. Bill Cullen never went to college, but has proven himself to be a successful businessman. He could therefore be eligible to run for election and perhaps to be chosen as Minister for Trade and Employment .

College degrees are simply a quick way of seperating the gombeens from those who can be beneficial to the country as a whole.

oscarBravo

Fo Real wrote: »

If a candidate has proved themselves to be adequately trained in a specific area, they then could be considered ...

By whom?

BaZmO*

Fo Real wrote: »

Third level education is free in this country so I don't want to hear arguments that college excludes the poor. It only excludes the stupid.

I've met plenty of stupid people in college. I've also met plenty of booksmart people that would certainly know their Cos from their Tan but wouldn't know their árse from the elbow when it came to business.

McDougal

What a snobby thread. The problem with our TDs isn't that they are thick or uneducated, it is that they are too greedy and crooked. University education wouldn't change that. Look at the kids in university these days? Greedy self-serving snobs who don't give a toss about anything except getting ahead in the world.

Remember this financial crisis was caused by bankers with degrees coming out their holes.

pawrick

A qualification/relevant experience should be considered a priority to be appointed to a position on one of the committees (PAC etc.) or as a cabinet member, other then that I can't see why a TD should have a degree.
There are far more ways the system can be improved and will have a greater impact such as in my opinion lowering the number of TD's and giving more power to councils so they are not caught up so much in the local issues as opposed to national issues. The whole system needs to be tweaked in reality.

Fo Real

oscarBravo wrote: »

By whom?

By universities. Honorary degrees can be conferred on successful figures in the business world and other relevant sections of society. A certain standard of education must be upheld in the Dáil. Otherwise the village idiot could be elected because he promises his neighbours pub licenses or that rural pub goers are exempt from the drink driving law. This sort of gombeenism actually occurs, as we all know.

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

For various reasons I didn't go to college in the late 1980s when I finished school. I was one of the lucky few who got a job, and worked my way up a career path that culminated in a senior management position with international responsibility and a salary approaching six figures in today's terms. Since then I've been self-employed and now run a successful business.

But you think I'm unqualified to be a TD?

Yes

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

.......

College degrees are simply a quick way of seperating the gombeens from those who can be beneficial to the country as a whole.

Fascinating. Therefore somebody who had a third level degree in Economics and qualifed as an accountant - like say Charles Haughey - would be truly the gift of a beneficent God.....

Nodin

Fo Real wrote: »

By universities. Honorary degrees can be conferred on successful figures in the business world and other relevant sections of society. A certain standard of education must be upheld in the Dáil. Otherwise the village idiot could be elected because he promises his neighbours pub licenses or that rural pub goers are exempt from the drink driving law. This sort of gombeenism actually occurs, as we all know.

Please explain why a third level education would preclude resorting to such methods to get elected......

Permabear

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oscarBravo

McDougal wrote: »

Yes

Well, you've already expressed disdain for University graduates in this very thread, so clearly that's not the reason why you would consider me unqualified. Would you care to explain why?

mikemac

Nodin wrote: »

Fascinating. Therefore somebody who had a third level degree in Economics and qualifed as an accountant - like say Charles Haughey - would be truly the gift of a beneficent God.....

Yep, qualified accountant and trained as a barrister too.
One of the most academically qualified TDs we ever had

So how did that work out OP?

McDougal

oscarBravo wrote: »

Well, you've already expressed disdain for University graduates in this very thread, so clearly that's not the reason why you would consider me unqualified. Would you care to explain why?

I dunno, I don't really like these self-employed entrepreneur business types

Nodin

McDougal wrote: »

I dunno, I don't really like these self-employed entrepreneur business types

On what basis, might I ask?

oscarBravo

Nodin wrote: »

On what basis, might I ask?

We create jobs. Evil fascists, the lot of us.

Rabble Rabble

I dont agree with the poster ( there is an obvious anti-rural bias, too, in fact more people go to university from the sticks than in Dublin). Also he is not really aware of what representative democracy should entail.

BUT...

If we are to have this rule, lets have Real Degrees. Science and Engineering. Like China's ruling class.

Anyome who has anything to do with Marxism. Not a hope. If you think the labour theory of value is true. Out out out.

Nodin

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

I dont agree with the poster ( there is an obvious anti-rural bias, too, in fact more people go to university from the sticks than in Dublin). Also he is not really aware of what representative democracy should entail.

BUT...

If we are to have this rule, lets have Real Degrees. Science and Engineering. Like China's ruling class.

I lack the confidence to go back at this stage....Therefore I will join our soon to be rapidly expanding Secret Police Force......

Lenny Lovett

Fo Real wrote: »

Too many of our TDs, especially the rural based ones, come across as ignorant, uneducated buffoons (to put it brashly). Jackie Healy Rae and the infamous PJ Sheehan immediately spring to mind, who both incidentally topped the list for claiming expenses during the Summer. PJ Sheehan doesn't know how to deal with the media and doesn't appear capable of conducting interviews. He recently told a journalist to "cop yourself on" when called up on his shocking expenses claims (over €20,000). On the other hand, I don't understand a word that comes out of Jackie Healy Rae's mouth. And that's not an attack on Kerry people. It's a charming accent but take pride in speaking clearly.

The problem is too many of our TDs are farmers and publicans. I therefore propose that it be made compulsory that all TDs should have obtained a university degree before standing for election. Third level education is free in this country so I don't want to hear arguments that college excludes the poor. It only excludes the stupid.

Personally I'd like to see more TDs with a science or business background enter the Dáil. These are the kinds of people that should be working in our various departments - not farmers.

What a load of utter tosh! They're giving out degrees to every Tom Dick and Harry these days. Go into any University Bar and you'll see a bunch of morons who haven't a clue about life. They have all the theory maybe (and that's even questionable) but little or no cop on. As to your assertion about Publicans and Farmers, you need to be fairly switched on to be either of them.

McDougal wrote: »

I dunno, I don't really like these self-employed entrepreneur business types

The country would be in an even worse state without us. We're the only ones generating revenue and propping up the Public Services.

McDougal

Nodin wrote: »

On what basis, might I ask?

They're always moaning about the minimum wage being too high and giving out out workers rights. Then they always give it the "I create jobs" sh1te and think it means they are a hero. Just because someone opens up another bloody coffee shop doesn't mean they are some national icon.

onlyrocknroll

Elevator wrote: »

I couldn't agree more op(

I couldn't agree less.

It's profoundly undemocratic. It's almost like a modern version of the philosopher kings in Plato's Republic.
It would preclude the majority of the population from government, denying many Irish people any form of representation.
I know many successful people who do not have third level education.
I know more academically successful people who can't manage their own lives never mind a country.

p.s. OP, rural people today are more likely to have a third level degree than urban people. It would be the urban working class that would be most harmed by this.

Nodin

McDougal wrote: »

They're always moaning about the minimum wage being too high and giving out out workers rights. Then they always give it the "I create jobs" sh1te and think it means they are a hero. Just because someone opens up another bloody coffee shop doesn't mean they are some national icon.

You don't know all of them, however. I'd suggest you're generalising on the basis of the 'Michael o'leary' type of ass.

ILA

I immensely dislike both sides of this arguement, it seems people either want business leaders in government or they want highly educated politicians with degrees in actuarial science or information technology.

That's no what democracy is about. If we want the system to work, we have to remove the incentives for crooks to enter politics. So TDs should only receive the average industrial wage, have vouched expenses, and only perform their primary role of creating and reviewing legislation.

No more 90k a year plus expenses, no more clientelism and parish pump operations on local government issues, no more corporate funding for parties. Remove the benefits which attract corrupt gombeens who want a cushy lfiestyle and only have to compete in a popularity contest every five years.

Byron85

donegalfella wrote: »

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Harvard not good enough? :D

With regard to people in rural areas, there is still a stigma in attached to further education in certain areas. Where i'm from in Co. Carlow is a testament to that. I'm from a small rural village of less than 1000 people, which was even smaller when I was growing up in the mid-nineties, and for some reason that isn't beyond me, a lot of people cannot comprehend further education. If they do comprehend it, somehow, then you are questioned along the lines of "what can you do with that" or "will you earn a lot of money". My sister was asked why did she "bother moving to Galway to study for a degree when you could stay at home, do a PLC course and then draw the dole".

While only being anecdotal, I find it somewhat interesting even if it is a little off topic.

djpbarry

Fo Real wrote: »

Third level education is free in this country so I don't want to hear arguments that college excludes the poor. It only excludes the stupid.

Academic achievement ≠ Intelligence

Fo Real wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see more TDs with a science or business background enter the Dáil. These are the kinds of people that should be working in our various departments - not farmers.

Farming isn’t a business?

djpbarry

McDougal wrote: »

Just because someone opens up another bloody coffee shop doesn't mean they are some national icon.

Perhaps not. But it certainly places them above the begrudging guy complaining about them on an anonymous internet forum. In my eyes at least.

Zambia

Maybe prior to being a candidate a test could be taken and the results made public?

Fo Real

Ok I've take all the comments on board and decided that making a university degree compulsory would exclude many potentially good election candidtes. But I maintain that education should be valued and encouraged. Imagine if an Irish Sarah Palin became Taoiseach. The horror.

I find Bryon85's anecdote above interesting. I don't think anybody can deny that gombeenism is alive and well in many rurual communities. "Extract as much dosh as you can for the local parish and to hell with the rest of the country." Our country is fundamentally flawed in its make-up:

- Parochialism promoted by the church
- Tribalism promoted by the GAA
- Cronyism promoted by political system
- Abuse promoted by church, unions etc

We are a sorry bunch indeed.

oscarBravo

Nodin wrote: »

I'd suggest you're generalising on the basis of the 'Michael o'leary' type of ass.

I think it's generous to suggest that there's a rational basis for the generalisation.

Permabear

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Einhard

McDougal wrote: »

University education wouldn't change that. Look at the kids in university these days? Greedy self-serving snobs who don't give a toss about anything except getting ahead in the world.

Generalise much?

OhNoYouDidn't

Within all this noise and nonsense there is a potentially interesting discussion.

Would we be better served with something closer to the French model where the majority of politicians and administrators studied Politics and Public Administration at a handful of universities?

oppenheimer1

Zambia232 wrote: »

Maybe prior to being a candidate a test could be taken and the results made public?

This is what I was going to suggest but then the main problem with the Irish system is not the intelligence of the TD's, but its apparent self serving nature. Jackie Healy Rae is often held up as an example of this rural buffoon stereotype, but really we've been all taken in by an act. People generally don't get to the top of the greasy pole by accident or just by waiting but through a mixture of cunning and good fortune. The cunning aspect requires intelligence and the good fortune is being in the right place at the right time and to not be seen from the parliamentary party view as a threat or trouble maker.

We already have a way of turfing out those that abuse the system for personal gain but its little used and people seem happy to return those that are known to have question marks over their behaviour. Intelligence is no guarantee that self serving nature of the Irish political system can be eliminated but could even make it worse. The smarter can hide their deception even more perfectly. CJH, is a perfect example of this.

Permabear

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ILA

donegalfella wrote: »

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Drop in standards. Oversupply of graduates. Piece of paper (aka degree) becomes as useless as the Leaving Cert to the majority.

djpbarry

ILA wrote: »

Drop in standards. Oversupply of graduates. Piece of paper (aka degree) becomes as useless as the Leaving Cert to the majority.

I think it depends greatly on the type of degree, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Liberalbrehon

ILA wrote: »

Drop in standards. Oversupply of graduates. Piece of paper (aka degree) becomes as useless as the Leaving Cert to the majority.

I don't think standards have dropped, actually probably improved, every generation means more knowledge etc in a specific area means better analysis of core subject. However the number of degrees means that there is a thing called education inflation. A degree is only a starting point for many. The masters and PHD are required for serious executives etc. There will be more people with degrees alive in next 30 years than total of degree holders ever. On specific OP, nice idea that academic achievers should only be elected but really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. What about poets, musicians etc should they be excluded from office?
I think if we want to improve quality of the people elected then a job description should be posted. There should be arranged debates among candidates for each constituency. Currently people just have to go around to houses and say what they would do, can slag off people at doors and on media.
However if public debates among candidates was mandatory then it would ensure I think the cream would rise to the top. People that can speak, put an argument together, counterpoint, communication skills, etc This would help alot. Didn't stop George Bush though!

In the end they are being paid to go into a debating house, some of the time anyway. They should be able to debate and think for themselves without resorting to the whip to tell them what to do.

agree with below. After finishing 4 years hons degree. It was difficult, got 2.1 and sweated for every mark. People that couldn't handle it dropped out.

oppenheimer1

ILA wrote: »

Drop in standards. Oversupply of graduates. Piece of paper (aka degree) becomes as useless as the Leaving Cert to the majority.

Are you actually for real in saying that the increase in the number of graduates is down to lowering of standards? Do you have a third level education?

The explosion in the number of graduates from the nations universities olny took place in the last twenty years. This coincided with a massive increase in the relative wealth of the population in addition to the increasing belief that a good leaving certificate was no longer enough to guarantee a person a living standard similar to what their parents enjoyed/endured. The nation became upwardly mobile, a third level education was seen as a distinct part of this.

The result of all this was that the University degree has become the minimum standard required for most jobs that can provide a reasonable standard of living similar t the all-honours leaving certificate of old. Obtaining a degree (level 8) is not easy and requires a lot of hard work and your remarks are insulting to those that have achieved this. There are no mickey mouse degrees at Irish Universities.

bamboozle

i'd much rather TD's with integrity, honesty and a commitment to this country rather than their arse pocket.

InigoMontoya

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

What a load of utter tosh! They're giving out degrees to every Tom Dick and Harry these days. Go into any University Bar and you'll see a bunch of morons who haven't a clue about life. They have all the theory maybe (and that's even questionable) but little or no cop

Whereas you can, of course, wander into any other bar and immediately locate a number of excellent ministerial candidates.

I don't agree with the OP at all though. I would like to see some system for ensuring that ministers had some expertise/track record in the area of their portfolio, but limiting the selection pool for TDs (or ministers) to graduates would exclude many competent and intelligent people.

dan_d

Possibly as an alternative take on the OP's original suggestion, it may be a requirement that to run for politics you need to have 3rd level education.

There are a lot of people out there that get very snotty when anything about education is mentioned - instantly you hear "well I did fine without education" and "a degree doesn't entitle you to anything". But the fact remains that, like it or not and regardless of the Bill Cullens among us, a degree is a yardstick against which many companies hire people. It shows a level of application (the results tend to indicate exactly how much application), a level of commitment to something, the ability to start something and finish it out, among other things. The Bill Cullens among us are what I would consider true entrepreneurs - I don't believe this is something that can be physically taught to people (that's just my belief). It doesn't necessarily make them any better or worse candidates, just that they tend to be in the minority.

I would add to the requirement of 3rd level education that a period of time has to be spent working in the private sector. I don't know why we have so many teachers in politics - it may be that they have more time on their hands than most people, and that's why.Possibly.

It's not an awful idea OP, but it could be tweaked a bit.Every company in the country hires by taking into account a person's educational achievements.Why should running the country be any different???

dashboard_hula

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Within all this noise and nonsense there is a potentially interesting discussion.

Would we be better served with something closer to the French model where the majority of politicians and administrators studied Politics and Public Administration at a handful of universities?

^^ That's not a bad idea. Devise a crash course in country-running and parliamentary procedure - make all new TD's attend. The processes are then mapped, a (small) amount of discipline is instilled, everyones singing from the same hymnsheet.

Side note from that - I don't believe that a degree is required to be TD, Minister or Taoiseach. But I would love to see the Civil Service run by a bunch of ruthless accountants and cut-throat ex performance managers. Mmmm...efficiency.

acer1000

It’s ridiculous to say that every TD should have a degree. I have a degree myself and as a result I know many others who also have one, and I know for a fact that having a degree wouldn’t in itself wouldn’t make one a better TD, than somebody who hasn’t got one. That’s compounded by the fact that the more recent degrees are far easier to get, thus calling into doubt the intelligence of the holders of such degrees

I accept that the country is served badly by the likes of gombeen politicians such as Jacky Healy R, but I’m inclined to think that the gombeen umbrella can also take in the degree laden, urban, middle class sophisticate type TD, too. No matter how they represent themselves to the world, if one scratches below the surface one will find an individual who’s on the make, just like JHR. After all like JHR they represent their constituents and their sectional interests, too. They are just a bit more savvy in not being to the top of the expenses list, but you bet they’re not that far down the list, either? Their worldview collides with that of the electorate who vote for JHR, so in effect they are the opposite side of the same coin. One being no more or less useful than the other and both costing more or less the same. So maybe, if you want to get rid of the JHR types, the answer could be not to vote for his opposite?

So maybe if we had politicians who weren’t on the make, in other words those who already have it made, I imagine we would now be in a better place as a country? Or maybe better if you have an individual who doesn’t necessarily have a lot, never had and doesn’t feel it’s necessary or should be necessary to have a lot of wealth to have a good life in a country? We had such in the past. The main qualification or common theme being a desire to be in politics to serve others,not the self.

Lenny Lovett

InigoMontoya wrote: »

I don't agree with the OP at all though. I would like to see some system for ensuring that ministers had some expertise/track record in the area of their portfolio, but limiting the selection pool for TDs (or ministers) to graduates would exclude many competent and intelligent people.

However, sometimes an outsider could be good. Especially here now we need fresh people with no preconceptions and with new ideas. The "old pros" are knackered.

PeterIanStaker

oscarBravo wrote: »

For various reasons I didn't go to college in the late 1980s when I finished school. I was one of the lucky few who got a job, and worked my way up a career path that culminated in a senior management position with international responsibility and a salary approaching six figures in today's terms. Since then I've been self-employed and now run a successful business.

But you think I'm unqualified to be a TD?

You have clearly demonstrated responsibility, leadership, initiative and hard graft in your career to date.

Not the kind of person the Dail wants:D

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

But the fact remains that, like it or not and regardless of the Bill Cullens among us, a degree is a yardstick against which many companies hire people.

...if the people in question have little or no professional experience. If I were an employer, I’d be far more interested in what a job applicant has achieved since they graduated than how they fared in their third-level education. Relevant achievements in a professional environment will trump qualifications almost every time.

And what’s with all the admiration on this thread for that Bill Cullen muppet?

P. Breathnach

I just can't get past the point of thinking that the only qualification for becoming a TD should be getting enough votes. If we mess around with that simple requirement, then we put our democracy in danger.