MORE Red Tape

Lenny Lovett

Just another example of the fine job our Department of the Environment etc are doing: This month the Wexford Meals on Wheels were donated a large quantity of fruit and Veg by the local farmers (a traditional harvest time gift) and this year they are forced to decline as under the food tracability regulations enforced by Environmental Health the vegetables cannot be used by them as they haven't been packaged and labeled with the farm of origin. Can't have the less fortunate and the elderly among us dying of carrot poisoning now can we? Take a bow Mr Gormley. Your Tsars are doing a sterling job. Mind how ye go now!:mad:

OhNoYouDidn't

What has John Gormley got to do with a Dept of Agriculture regulation?

Same old, blame the Greens for a FF departments decision. Unreal.

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What has John Gormley got to do with a Dept of Agriculture regulation?

Same old, blame the Greens for a FF departments decision. Unreal.

I stand corrected. The Environmental Health officers are not governed by the Department of the Environment. My mistake. How could I have mixed that up?

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I stand corrected. The Environmental Health officers are not governed by the Department of the Environment. My mistake. How could I have mixed that up?

It would be unkind to answer that question, I think. In fact, Environmental Health officers are part of the HSE:

Environmental Health Officers and laboratory services

Environmental Health Officers are employed by the HSE and implement national and EU laws on food safety and hygiene. They sometimes provide services for the local authorities as well. Among their responsibilities in the food safety area are:

* Food control, including maintaining a register of food premises, inspecting all premises where food is manufactured or sold and investigating complaints about unfit food
* Enforcing the smoking laws in public places
* Enforcing the rules on sale and storage of poisons

Environmental Health Officers have other public health and environmental functions, including pest control, monitoring of temporary dwellings, inspection of public buildings such as schools and places of entertainment and industrial hygiene.

Individuals may contact Environmental Health Officers to complain about such matters as hygiene in food premises or water quality. In certain circumstances, the Environmental Health Officer may provide a service to an individual to deal with pests.

amused,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Fair enough. It's still shocking though, that regulations such as these prevent local charities from using perfectly good fruit and vegetables to feed their clients. Total madness!

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Fair enough. It's still shocking though, that regulations such as these prevent local charities from using perfectly good fruit and vegetables to feed their clients. Total madness!

Until someone gets sick from one and the logical question is asked about why the rules were waived. We don't know if they are 'perfectly good', thats the whole point.

But the point here is that you decided to blame JG for a Food related policy from Europe enforced by the Dept of Health. Its tedious.

Wolfe Tone

Is this a national or EU law?

Considering today I learned how to look these things up I should really check myself.

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Until someone gets sick from one and the logical question is asked about why the rules were waived. We don't know if they are 'perfectly good', thats the whole point.

But the point here is that you decided to blame JG for a Food related policy from Europe enforced by the Dept of Health. Its tedious.

Yes and I corrected it and acknowledged I was wrong. I am going off now to beat myself soundly in reparation for my dreadful error.

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

Riskymove

Chastising PS workers for doing their job?

damned if they do...etc

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Yes and I corrected it and acknowledged I was wrong. I am going off now to beat myself soundly in reparation for my dreadful error.

No, you launched into a personalised polemic about the wrong bloody person. And still haven't edited it...

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

No, largely because of the food safety regieme you want waived.

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Yes and I corrected it and acknowledged I was wrong. I am going off now to beat myself soundly in reparation for my dreadful error.

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

There's no certainty what chemicals may contaminate a vegetable. Eating carrots full of heavy metals or PCBs won't immediately make an adult sick, but would cause liver damage. In a child, or worse, a baby, it could be quite serious. In a pregnant woman, potentially very serious indeed.

There are often reasons why we have environmental health and safety laws. People often see them as unwarranted interference, much as they historically viewed milk pasteurisation, water sanitation, clean air acts, the removal of lead from petrol, the use of disinfectant and hand-washing in hospitals and by midwives, toxic waste regulation...virtually every environmental health improvement in history has brought out a chorus of people complaining that it never did them any harm, is unwarranted interference in basic freedom, will actually be less healthy, will never work, restricts business, is ill-thought-out, is scientifically questionable, is a conspiracy for someone's profit, etc etc.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Riskymove

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

a case of not seeing the wood for the trees?

OhNoYouDidn't

Scofflaw wrote: »

In a child, or worse, a baby, it could be quite serious. In a pregnant woman, potentially very serious indeed.

You forgot the other high risk category, older folk. Which ironically..., ah you know where I am going.

Long and short of it, how hard is it for the (well intentioned) farmers to label the produce as normal?

Riskymove

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You forgot the other high risk category, older folk. Which ironically..., ah you know where I am going.

Long and short of it, how hard is it for the (well intentioned) farmers to label the produce as normal?

do farmers label produce?

i would have thought that was the food company they supply!

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You forgot the other high risk category, older folk. Which ironically..., ah you know where I am going.

Long and short of it, how hard is it for the (well intentioned) farmers to label the produce as normal?

Because it normally goes to the processors to be packed and labelled. The farmers don't have the equipment. I just think it's bureacracy gone mad. I buy veg at the farmers market every week with no labels or wasteful wrapping on it. and it's never harmed me. It is a simple concept of the farmers donating veg to a local charity but made complicated or impossible by silly red tape.

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's no certainty what chemicals may contaminate a vegetable. Eating carrots full of heavy metals or PCBs won't immediately make an adult sick, but would cause liver damage. In a child, or worse, a baby, it could be quite serious. In a pregnant woman, potentially very serious indeed.

There are often reasons why we have environmental health and safety laws. People often see them as unwarranted interference, much as they historically viewed milk pasteurisation, water sanitation, clean air acts, the removal of lead from petrol, the use of disinfectant and hand-washing in hospitals and by midwives, toxic waste regulation...virtually every environmental health improvement in history has brought out a chorus of people complaining that it never did them any harm, is unwarranted interference in basic freedom, will actually be less healthy, will never work, restricts business, is ill-thought-out, is scientifically questionable, is a conspiracy for someone's profit, etc etc.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ah come on. Be serious. For centuries up to ten years ago, or so, there was none of this silly labelling and packaging and the veg and fruit wasn't killing people. There was less waste, less unnecessary rubbish from the packaging. It's just so over the top. Go to Europe and look in the Supermarkets. You'll never see such prepacked, cleaned (using lots of chemicals) and labelled food as we have here.

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Ah come on. Be serious. For centuries up to ten years ago, or so, there was none of this silly labelling and packaging and the veg and fruit wasn't killing people. There was less waste, less unnecessary rubbish from the packaging. It's just so over the top. Go to Europe and look in the Supermarkets. You'll never see such prepacked, cleaned (using lots of chemicals) and labelled food as we have here.

That's actually a matter of consumer preference, though, apart from some of the labelling - nobody requires the supermarkets to present food as they do. You can buy vegetables unpacked, unwashed, and loose in greengrocers and organic markets, so it's rather clearly not an issue of regulation.

Mind you, it's not necessary for the fruit and veg to be killing people for it to be harmful - that's just a variant on the "never did me any harm" rebuttal.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's actually a matter of consumer preference, though, apart from some of the labelling - nobody requires the supermarkets to present food as they do. You can buy vegetables unpacked, unwashed, and loose in greengrocers and organic markets, so it's rather clearly not an issue of regulation.

The packaging isn't actually a matter of consumer choice. Most products (ironically except fruit and veg) - I'm talking about fish, meat, poultry etc - nowadays in Ireland must be wrapped under HACCAP Regs. The same produce can be bought in continental Europe without any such wrapping. Equally, farmers markets can sell some foods without labelling etc but for (in this case) The Meals on Wheels to use produce it must be labelled and wrapped. It is creating excess rubbish, waste and excess red tape.

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

The packaging isn't actually a matter of consumer choice. Most products (ironically except fruit and veg) - I'm talking about fish, meat, poultry etc - nowadays in Ireland must be wrapped under HACCAP Regs. The same produce can be bought in continental Europe without any such wrapping. Equally, farmers markets can sell some foods without labelling etc but for (in this case) The Meals on Wheels to use produce it must be labelled and wrapped. It is creating excess rubbish, waste and excess red tape.

The labelling and packaging for Meals on Wheels again isn't simply there for fun - numerous studies indicated problems with food safety for the recipients,

Sure, it would be very much easier if we had no regulations that in any way prevented businesses or people from doing anything they liked - but the question is whether "ease of doing something" is really something that takes priority over anything else. After all, one could argue for bringing back child labour on the same basis - or one could choose to dump a load of dodgy food into the Meals and Wheels service.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

The food was not dodgy. It was top quality FRESH vegetables and fruit. Again I say, it is next to impossible to get food poisoning from cooked veg. Ye can make as many excuses as ye like but the sheer waste of such fresh vegetables is scandalous.

BTW Scofflaw can you point me to some examples of the "numerous studies indicated problems with food safety for the recipients"?

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

The food was not dodgy. It was top quality FRESH vegetables and fruit. Again I say, it is next to impossible to get food poisoning from cooked veg. Ye can make as many excuses as ye like but the sheer waste of such fresh vegetables is scandalous.

Oh, sure, we should do casual exemptions on the basis of say-so. Or people could think about how to do something properly, instead of trying to do it the easy way and bitching when there's some reason they can't.

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

BTW Scofflaw can you point me to some examples of the "numerous studies indicated problems with food safety for the recipients"?

No problem: http://www.google.ie/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=meals+on+wheels+food+safety&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=738369fb0115b0d2

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Why does it not surprise me that a Green supporter such as yourself advocates the dumping of perfect fresh vegetables. Just typical. Well done Scofflaw, you've reinforced my opinions!

Callan57

Will someone explain to me why there is no problem buying loose fruit & veg in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc etc

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

Lenny Lovett

Callan57 wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there is no problem buying loose fruit & veg in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc etc

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

Because they don't have the battallions of quangos and faux Greenies plying them with the bullsh1t we have to endure. You can go to a market in most European countries and buy fresh meat and fish and it will be laid out there in front of you. No wrapping or regulation and it won't have travelled hundreds of miles to be processed and labelled to appease the greenies. It will have travelled a few miles from the farm down the road and have a minimal carbon footprint. The veg will probably be caked in mud and will taste delicious!

flutered

i use two local markets since i had to give up home growing, i hav yet to see a wrapper or a chemically cleaned veg, some of this type of thing is utter and compleate madness.

Lenny Lovett

flutered wrote: »

i use two local markets since i had to give up home growing, i hav yet to see a wrapper or a chemically cleaned veg, some of this type of thing is utter and compleate madness.

Absolutely. And my point is that if the local farmers market can sell you a carrot fresh from the ground why should the Meals on Wheels not be allowed to accept a gift of same and give it to their clients? Why must it be washed and packed and labelled? Veg wasn't meant to come in a bag!

dashboard_hula

Ok c'mere now, calm your ire.

Yes, you can get unlabelled fruit and vegetables both in farmers markets here and on the continent. However, the food in question was offered to the Meals on Wheels service. This service provides food for amongst others, the elderly, disabled, and ill. To be quite honest, I would highly prefer for that food to be labelled, wrapped and traceable. It is entirely possible to get quite ill from eating contaminated vegetables, and we're talking about the most vulnerable in the community. If you want to shop from a trailer and get your carrots mucky and fresh from the ground (the same way I do, btw), that's entirely your choice. However you are not concerned with anybody elses health but yours, therefore its your business.

And what's stopping the farmers selling their produce at the markets and donating the proceeds to Meals on Wheels? It's just as much of a well intentioned gift, and it'd be received just as gratefully.

I can genuinely see where you're coming from, and how on the face of it it does seem like more waste and needless bureaucracy, however this is where good practices get lumped in and maligned along with the bad.

Scofflaw

Why does it not surprise me that a Green supporter such as yourself advocates the dumping of perfect fresh vegetables. Just typical. Well done Scofflaw, you've reinforced my opinions!

Which is to say that you don't have an answer to the point - and I note that in your further posts you've gone back to blaming the Greens for the existence of Environmental Health regulations that have nothing to do with them. Now you've decided to have a go at me for something I haven't said.

Could you make it clearer that you're Green-bashing for the sake of it, and perfectly willing to ignore the facts in order to do so?

regards,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which is to say that you don't have an answer to the point - and I note that in your further posts you've gone back to blaming the Greens for the existence of Environmental Health regulations that have nothing to do with them. Now you've decided to have a go at me for something I haven't said.

Could you make it clearer that you're Green-bashing for the sake of it, and perfectly willing to ignore the facts in order to do so?

regards,
Scofflaw

No man! I'm bashing the ideals that it's safer and better to take a fresh vegetable and transport if a few hundred kms in order to be cleaned, wrapped and labelled when it doesn't have to be. You say yourself you are a Green supporter and most of the others who disagree with my point are also. And you all think that this kind of practice is good? I just don't understand the logic. There are people here assuming that the produce is contaminated but where is there any evidence of it? It's just a matter of a simple thing being turned into a major operation which is just typical of Ireland today. Making life complicated when it doesn't need to be. A carrot doesn't need all this extra bureaucracy does it FFS?!:mad:

OhNoYouDidn't

Callan57 wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there is no problem buying loose fruit & veg in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc etc

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

Its still traceable to the farm though. The issue here is that the veg offered is not

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its still traceable to the farm though. The issue here is that the veg offered is not

Your gas! How many times growing up did you get poisoned by vegetables prior to all the labelling and bullsh1t that you advocate is soooo important? It's no wonder the country is where it is. Really...:rolleyes:

flutered

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its still traceable to the farm though. The issue here is that the veg offered is not

at the most ther would be about 6 or 7 farmers involved, they all would not be supplying the same produce, traceibility is easy here, also could not some one take random samples for checking, which is all that is done anyway, now unless the earth in wexford contains something that the powers to be requires hideing.

AlekSmart

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

For sure Callan57,that`s up for discussion.

One of the defining elements of our recent enthusiasm for the EU and its myriad rules,regulations,treaties and whatnot is the zeal with which we embrace and enforce them to the n`th degree.

Modern Irish Political Administration now appears to spend as much time and effort preventing people from doing stuff such as work as it does creating or encouraging a work ethic.

A friend of mine,who runs a small motor repair business,is currently travelling through France and Spain.

He is absolutely livid at the numbers of his proffession who are able to carry on their trade in small villages,towns and cities throughout these countries,whilst if he even attempted to work in this manner he would be raided by as many "Agencies" as could be mustered in order to shut his business down.

Whether it be spurious auld sustainability guff or even more wildly unnecessary anti-productive pahlavah such as the 48Hr week Working Time Directive...the chances of Éire Teo managing to make anything of itself unless it starts waking up,are nil.

dashboard_hula

flutered wrote: »

at the most ther would be about 6 or 7 farmers involved, they all would not be supplying the same produce, traceibility is easy here, also could not some one take random samples for checking, which is all that is done anyway, now unless the earth in wexford contains something that the powers to be requires hideing.

Unfortunately, that isn't the point. There aren't any regulations out there at the moment to facilitate the adhoc labelling/tracing of produce for a small, specific purpose. The system that's there at the present is the product of multiple food scares, both real and imagined. It would be nice though.

Your gas! How many times growing up did you get poisoned by vegetables prior to all the labelling and bullsh1t that you advocate is soooo important? It's no wonder the country is where it is. Really...

Lenny Lovett -

This thread has an interesting topic, but you seem unable address any viewpoints different from your own other than to categorically dismiss them. I am not criticising you, I am criticising your logic. The country is not "the way it is" because of thorough food labelling techniques. It is not "all the Greens fault" that these regulations were passed. Ireland will not suffer culturally as a nation because a bunch of nice lads in Wexford couldn't send over a load of cabbages. So please, refute our points, debate them.

P. Breathnach

It seems that we have people in this discussion who favour light-touch regulation with scope for informal exceptions.

Sure, where's the harm in it?

dashboard_hula

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It seems that we have people in this discussion who favour light-touch regulation with scope for informal exceptions.

Sure, where's the harm in it?

Also true

Lenny Lovett

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It seems that we have people in this discussion who favour light-touch regulation with scope for informal exceptions.

Sure, where's the harm in it?

I'd prefer to call it common sense and there's no harm in that!

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

No man! I'm bashing the ideals that it's safer and better to take a fresh vegetable and transport if a few hundred kms in order to be cleaned, wrapped and labelled when it doesn't have to be. You say yourself you are a Green supporter and most of the others who disagree with my point are also. And you all think that this kind of practice is good? I just don't understand the logic. There are people here assuming that the produce is contaminated but where is there any evidence of it? It's just a matter of a simple thing being turned into a major operation which is just typical of Ireland today. Making life complicated when it doesn't need to be. A carrot doesn't need all this extra bureaucracy does it FFS?!:mad:

You don't need to assume the produce is contaminated - you only need to assume that the produce could be contaminated. As to the transporting it a few hundred kms to be cleaned, wrapped, and labelled - no, I'm no fan of that, but that's clearly not something that always has to be the case, otherwise you couldn't buy a cut of meat from a butcher or a piece of fish from a fishmonger, or buy loose carrots off a market stall - and you can do all those things.

It's the case here because we're dealing with a vulnerable group, who have been identified as having certain habits in respect of food that make labelling and packaging more necessary than for the general population.

That has nothing to do with "being Green" - it's a case of ensuring that at-risk members of society are properly protected.

regards,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I'd prefer to call it common sense and there's no harm in that!

And was there any harm in applying such "common sense" to bank regulation?

regards,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

And was there any harm in applying such "common sense" to bank regulation?

regards,
Scofflaw

Common sense should be applied across the spectrum not just to food handling and bank regulation. If our Government had an ounce of common sense we would not be in the mess we are in IMO! There was plenty of regulation on the banking sector over the past decade at least. It just wasn't monitored. Very little common sense was applied either. Who's responsible for that??? I'm still amazed that a Green supporter advocates transporting food half way across the country to get a label and a wash in chemicals.... Or am I?:rolleyes:

Maybe before the Greens got obsessed with protecting wild animals they could have looked at making food production for humans and the all important label system easier for farmers...

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Your gas! How many times growing up did you get poisoned by vegetables prior to all the labelling and bullsh1t that you advocate is soooo important? It's no wonder the country is where it is. Really...:rolleyes:

So what are you actually arguing here? That we should cease to have consumer protection on food? That farmers can be trusted if left to it (mad cow anyone?)? That resteraunts can be trusted to keep clean kitchens? Fast food places will store food correctly?

You are just making a lot of noise and no sound is eminating. What exactly is your problem? The concept of food safety or the idea that exceptions cannot be made when you want them to be made?

With respect, you are displaying the classic Irish mentality to the law. The rules should apply to everyone else. Regulation should be beefed up, but not in any area that impacts on me.

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Common sense should be applied across the spectrum not just to food handling and bank regulation. If

But what you are actually arguing for is not 'common sense'. Its bending the rules for the lads, which is EXACTLY the reason we are where we are.

Common sense says that you are more stringent when it comes to the old, sick and disabled when it comes to food safety. Not less.

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But what you are actually arguing for is not 'common sense'. Its bending the rules for the lads, which is EXACTLY the reason we are where we are.

Common sense says that you are more stringent when it comes to the old, sick and disabled when it comes to food safety. Not less.

Sigh... There's a big difference between fruit/Veg and Meat. I suppose meat could need to be tracable, chilled etc etc though It wouldn't bother me if it wasn't. I could tell if it was off without a label to tell me!. Veg, in general doesn't need such red tape dressed up as safety. It's hard to get food poisoning from vegetables. I spoke to an Environmental Health Officer this morning (with over twenty years service) and he says that "technically it is possible for someone to get contamination from vegetables however it is extremely rare". In his twenty years experience he has never come across a case and hasn't heard of any in Ireland.

I despair. If you guys are examples of the average Green Party member, it's no wonder we are where we are. God help us!

KerranJast

Lenny seems to live in an imaginary world with no lawyers or law suits. It only takes one screw up due to lax regulations for some ambulance chaser to have a field day. E&H regs are as much protection for SMEs as they are for customers.

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Sigh... There's a big difference between fruit/Veg and Meat. I suppose meat could need to be tracable, chilled etc etc though It wouldn't bother me if it wasn't. I could tell if it was off without a label to tell me!.

Good for you, but the same can't be said for kids or many of those who get meals on wheels though...

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Veg, in general doesn't need such red tape dressed up as safety. It's hard to get food poisoning from vegetables. I spoke to an Environmental Health Officer this morning (with over twenty years service) and he says that "technically it is possible for someone to get contamination from vegetables however it is extremely rare". In his twenty years experience he has never come across a case and hasn't heard of any in Ireland.

You do understand the idea of circular logic. Maybe he hasn't heard of a case because of the regieme?

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I despair. If you guys are examples of the average Green Party member, it's no wonder we are where we are. God help us!

Green Party? Moi?

So far in the last couple of weeks I've been accused of membership of the 32csm, eirigi, FF, Labour and now the Greens. I'm either doing something very right or very wrong on here....

Don't assume that someone like me who approves of a state scheme like food tracing is a government supporter, never mind a minority party that has nothing to do with its application.

Lenny Lovett

KerranJast wrote: »

Lenny seems to live in an imaginary world with no lawyers or law suits.

Ah! That must be it. Thanks for explaining where I am. As long as I don't suffer death by carrot!:rolleyes:

Riskymove

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I despair. If you guys are examples of the average Green Party member, it's no wonder we are where we are. God help us!

I despair even more

if anyone is obsessed its you, with the Greens


its already been mentioned a few times but what have the Greens got to do with this issue?

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Ah! That must be it. Thanks for explaining where I am. As long as I don't suffer death by carrot!:rolleyes:

You are displaying a spectacular lack of common sense on this one.

Lenny Lovett

They're just talking on Liveline now about how the school kids must pay €90 per year for 1 litre of drinking water per day in school. One kid decided to bring his own bottle of water with him and is told he can't because his bottle might have germs. You couldn't make it up.:D FFS
I'm glad I don't have a four kids going to school or I'd have to cough up another water tax of €90 a head.

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

They're just talking on Liveline now about how the school kids must pay €90 per year for 1 litre of drinking water per day in school. One kid decided to bring his own bottle of water with him and is told he can't because his bottle might have germs. You couldn't make it up.:D FFS
I'm glad I don't have a four kids going to school or I'd have to cough up another water tax of €90 a head.

And what party is the Minister for Education a member of?

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And what party is the Minister for Education a member of?

The Minister for Education is a member of the FF/Green coalition. The water charges are being brought in by Minister Gormley's Department not Education. The schools have to pass on the charges. So again the Greens mean tax! This is actually very serious. Imagine an average family that has to pay up for two or three kids now, just before Christmas. It's beyond a joke now. By all means they should make householders pay but going after little kids? That's just downright disgusting. Ye should be very ashamed of yourselves.