MORE Red Tape

Lenny Lovett

Just another example of the fine job our Department of the Environment etc are doing: This month the Wexford Meals on Wheels were donated a large quantity of fruit and Veg by the local farmers (a traditional harvest time gift) and this year they are forced to decline as under the food tracability regulations enforced by Environmental Health the vegetables cannot be used by them as they haven't been packaged and labeled with the farm of origin. Can't have the less fortunate and the elderly among us dying of carrot poisoning now can we? Take a bow Mr Gormley. Your Tsars are doing a sterling job. Mind how ye go now!:mad:

OhNoYouDidn't

What has John Gormley got to do with a Dept of Agriculture regulation?

Same old, blame the Greens for a FF departments decision. Unreal.

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What has John Gormley got to do with a Dept of Agriculture regulation?

Same old, blame the Greens for a FF departments decision. Unreal.

I stand corrected. The Environmental Health officers are not governed by the Department of the Environment. My mistake. How could I have mixed that up?

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I stand corrected. The Environmental Health officers are not governed by the Department of the Environment. My mistake. How could I have mixed that up?

It would be unkind to answer that question, I think. In fact, Environmental Health officers are part of the HSE:

Environmental Health Officers and laboratory services

Environmental Health Officers are employed by the HSE and implement national and EU laws on food safety and hygiene. They sometimes provide services for the local authorities as well. Among their responsibilities in the food safety area are:

* Food control, including maintaining a register of food premises, inspecting all premises where food is manufactured or sold and investigating complaints about unfit food
* Enforcing the smoking laws in public places
* Enforcing the rules on sale and storage of poisons

Environmental Health Officers have other public health and environmental functions, including pest control, monitoring of temporary dwellings, inspection of public buildings such as schools and places of entertainment and industrial hygiene.

Individuals may contact Environmental Health Officers to complain about such matters as hygiene in food premises or water quality. In certain circumstances, the Environmental Health Officer may provide a service to an individual to deal with pests.

amused,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Fair enough. It's still shocking though, that regulations such as these prevent local charities from using perfectly good fruit and vegetables to feed their clients. Total madness!

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Fair enough. It's still shocking though, that regulations such as these prevent local charities from using perfectly good fruit and vegetables to feed their clients. Total madness!

Until someone gets sick from one and the logical question is asked about why the rules were waived. We don't know if they are 'perfectly good', thats the whole point.

But the point here is that you decided to blame JG for a Food related policy from Europe enforced by the Dept of Health. Its tedious.

Wolfe Tone

Is this a national or EU law?

Considering today I learned how to look these things up I should really check myself.

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Until someone gets sick from one and the logical question is asked about why the rules were waived. We don't know if they are 'perfectly good', thats the whole point.

But the point here is that you decided to blame JG for a Food related policy from Europe enforced by the Dept of Health. Its tedious.

Yes and I corrected it and acknowledged I was wrong. I am going off now to beat myself soundly in reparation for my dreadful error.

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

Riskymove

Chastising PS workers for doing their job?

damned if they do...etc

OhNoYouDidn't

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Yes and I corrected it and acknowledged I was wrong. I am going off now to beat myself soundly in reparation for my dreadful error.

No, you launched into a personalised polemic about the wrong bloody person. And still haven't edited it...

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

No, largely because of the food safety regieme you want waived.

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Yes and I corrected it and acknowledged I was wrong. I am going off now to beat myself soundly in reparation for my dreadful error.

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

There's no certainty what chemicals may contaminate a vegetable. Eating carrots full of heavy metals or PCBs won't immediately make an adult sick, but would cause liver damage. In a child, or worse, a baby, it could be quite serious. In a pregnant woman, potentially very serious indeed.

There are often reasons why we have environmental health and safety laws. People often see them as unwarranted interference, much as they historically viewed milk pasteurisation, water sanitation, clean air acts, the removal of lead from petrol, the use of disinfectant and hand-washing in hospitals and by midwives, toxic waste regulation...virtually every environmental health improvement in history has brought out a chorus of people complaining that it never did them any harm, is unwarranted interference in basic freedom, will actually be less healthy, will never work, restricts business, is ill-thought-out, is scientifically questionable, is a conspiracy for someone's profit, etc etc.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Riskymove

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

BTW did you ever hear of someone getting sick from a vegetable?

a case of not seeing the wood for the trees?

OhNoYouDidn't

Scofflaw wrote: »

In a child, or worse, a baby, it could be quite serious. In a pregnant woman, potentially very serious indeed.

You forgot the other high risk category, older folk. Which ironically..., ah you know where I am going.

Long and short of it, how hard is it for the (well intentioned) farmers to label the produce as normal?

Riskymove

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You forgot the other high risk category, older folk. Which ironically..., ah you know where I am going.

Long and short of it, how hard is it for the (well intentioned) farmers to label the produce as normal?

do farmers label produce?

i would have thought that was the food company they supply!

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You forgot the other high risk category, older folk. Which ironically..., ah you know where I am going.

Long and short of it, how hard is it for the (well intentioned) farmers to label the produce as normal?

Because it normally goes to the processors to be packed and labelled. The farmers don't have the equipment. I just think it's bureacracy gone mad. I buy veg at the farmers market every week with no labels or wasteful wrapping on it. and it's never harmed me. It is a simple concept of the farmers donating veg to a local charity but made complicated or impossible by silly red tape.

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's no certainty what chemicals may contaminate a vegetable. Eating carrots full of heavy metals or PCBs won't immediately make an adult sick, but would cause liver damage. In a child, or worse, a baby, it could be quite serious. In a pregnant woman, potentially very serious indeed.

There are often reasons why we have environmental health and safety laws. People often see them as unwarranted interference, much as they historically viewed milk pasteurisation, water sanitation, clean air acts, the removal of lead from petrol, the use of disinfectant and hand-washing in hospitals and by midwives, toxic waste regulation...virtually every environmental health improvement in history has brought out a chorus of people complaining that it never did them any harm, is unwarranted interference in basic freedom, will actually be less healthy, will never work, restricts business, is ill-thought-out, is scientifically questionable, is a conspiracy for someone's profit, etc etc.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ah come on. Be serious. For centuries up to ten years ago, or so, there was none of this silly labelling and packaging and the veg and fruit wasn't killing people. There was less waste, less unnecessary rubbish from the packaging. It's just so over the top. Go to Europe and look in the Supermarkets. You'll never see such prepacked, cleaned (using lots of chemicals) and labelled food as we have here.

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Ah come on. Be serious. For centuries up to ten years ago, or so, there was none of this silly labelling and packaging and the veg and fruit wasn't killing people. There was less waste, less unnecessary rubbish from the packaging. It's just so over the top. Go to Europe and look in the Supermarkets. You'll never see such prepacked, cleaned (using lots of chemicals) and labelled food as we have here.

That's actually a matter of consumer preference, though, apart from some of the labelling - nobody requires the supermarkets to present food as they do. You can buy vegetables unpacked, unwashed, and loose in greengrocers and organic markets, so it's rather clearly not an issue of regulation.

Mind you, it's not necessary for the fruit and veg to be killing people for it to be harmful - that's just a variant on the "never did me any harm" rebuttal.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's actually a matter of consumer preference, though, apart from some of the labelling - nobody requires the supermarkets to present food as they do. You can buy vegetables unpacked, unwashed, and loose in greengrocers and organic markets, so it's rather clearly not an issue of regulation.

The packaging isn't actually a matter of consumer choice. Most products (ironically except fruit and veg) - I'm talking about fish, meat, poultry etc - nowadays in Ireland must be wrapped under HACCAP Regs. The same produce can be bought in continental Europe without any such wrapping. Equally, farmers markets can sell some foods without labelling etc but for (in this case) The Meals on Wheels to use produce it must be labelled and wrapped. It is creating excess rubbish, waste and excess red tape.

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

The packaging isn't actually a matter of consumer choice. Most products (ironically except fruit and veg) - I'm talking about fish, meat, poultry etc - nowadays in Ireland must be wrapped under HACCAP Regs. The same produce can be bought in continental Europe without any such wrapping. Equally, farmers markets can sell some foods without labelling etc but for (in this case) The Meals on Wheels to use produce it must be labelled and wrapped. It is creating excess rubbish, waste and excess red tape.

The labelling and packaging for Meals on Wheels again isn't simply there for fun - numerous studies indicated problems with food safety for the recipients,

Sure, it would be very much easier if we had no regulations that in any way prevented businesses or people from doing anything they liked - but the question is whether "ease of doing something" is really something that takes priority over anything else. After all, one could argue for bringing back child labour on the same basis - or one could choose to dump a load of dodgy food into the Meals and Wheels service.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

The food was not dodgy. It was top quality FRESH vegetables and fruit. Again I say, it is next to impossible to get food poisoning from cooked veg. Ye can make as many excuses as ye like but the sheer waste of such fresh vegetables is scandalous.

BTW Scofflaw can you point me to some examples of the "numerous studies indicated problems with food safety for the recipients"?

Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

The food was not dodgy. It was top quality FRESH vegetables and fruit. Again I say, it is next to impossible to get food poisoning from cooked veg. Ye can make as many excuses as ye like but the sheer waste of such fresh vegetables is scandalous.

Oh, sure, we should do casual exemptions on the basis of say-so. Or people could think about how to do something properly, instead of trying to do it the easy way and bitching when there's some reason they can't.

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

BTW Scofflaw can you point me to some examples of the "numerous studies indicated problems with food safety for the recipients"?

No problem: http://www.google.ie/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=meals+on+wheels+food+safety&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=738369fb0115b0d2

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Why does it not surprise me that a Green supporter such as yourself advocates the dumping of perfect fresh vegetables. Just typical. Well done Scofflaw, you've reinforced my opinions!

Callan57

Will someone explain to me why there is no problem buying loose fruit & veg in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc etc

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

Lenny Lovett

Callan57 wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there is no problem buying loose fruit & veg in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc etc

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

Because they don't have the battallions of quangos and faux Greenies plying them with the bullsh1t we have to endure. You can go to a market in most European countries and buy fresh meat and fish and it will be laid out there in front of you. No wrapping or regulation and it won't have travelled hundreds of miles to be processed and labelled to appease the greenies. It will have travelled a few miles from the farm down the road and have a minimal carbon footprint. The veg will probably be caked in mud and will taste delicious!

flutered

i use two local markets since i had to give up home growing, i hav yet to see a wrapper or a chemically cleaned veg, some of this type of thing is utter and compleate madness.

Lenny Lovett

flutered wrote: »

i use two local markets since i had to give up home growing, i hav yet to see a wrapper or a chemically cleaned veg, some of this type of thing is utter and compleate madness.

Absolutely. And my point is that if the local farmers market can sell you a carrot fresh from the ground why should the Meals on Wheels not be allowed to accept a gift of same and give it to their clients? Why must it be washed and packed and labelled? Veg wasn't meant to come in a bag!

dashboard_hula

Ok c'mere now, calm your ire.

Yes, you can get unlabelled fruit and vegetables both in farmers markets here and on the continent. However, the food in question was offered to the Meals on Wheels service. This service provides food for amongst others, the elderly, disabled, and ill. To be quite honest, I would highly prefer for that food to be labelled, wrapped and traceable. It is entirely possible to get quite ill from eating contaminated vegetables, and we're talking about the most vulnerable in the community. If you want to shop from a trailer and get your carrots mucky and fresh from the ground (the same way I do, btw), that's entirely your choice. However you are not concerned with anybody elses health but yours, therefore its your business.

And what's stopping the farmers selling their produce at the markets and donating the proceeds to Meals on Wheels? It's just as much of a well intentioned gift, and it'd be received just as gratefully.

I can genuinely see where you're coming from, and how on the face of it it does seem like more waste and needless bureaucracy, however this is where good practices get lumped in and maligned along with the bad.

Scofflaw

Why does it not surprise me that a Green supporter such as yourself advocates the dumping of perfect fresh vegetables. Just typical. Well done Scofflaw, you've reinforced my opinions!

Which is to say that you don't have an answer to the point - and I note that in your further posts you've gone back to blaming the Greens for the existence of Environmental Health regulations that have nothing to do with them. Now you've decided to have a go at me for something I haven't said.

Could you make it clearer that you're Green-bashing for the sake of it, and perfectly willing to ignore the facts in order to do so?

regards,
Scofflaw

Lenny Lovett

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which is to say that you don't have an answer to the point - and I note that in your further posts you've gone back to blaming the Greens for the existence of Environmental Health regulations that have nothing to do with them. Now you've decided to have a go at me for something I haven't said.

Could you make it clearer that you're Green-bashing for the sake of it, and perfectly willing to ignore the facts in order to do so?

regards,
Scofflaw

No man! I'm bashing the ideals that it's safer and better to take a fresh vegetable and transport if a few hundred kms in order to be cleaned, wrapped and labelled when it doesn't have to be. You say yourself you are a Green supporter and most of the others who disagree with my point are also. And you all think that this kind of practice is good? I just don't understand the logic. There are people here assuming that the produce is contaminated but where is there any evidence of it? It's just a matter of a simple thing being turned into a major operation which is just typical of Ireland today. Making life complicated when it doesn't need to be. A carrot doesn't need all this extra bureaucracy does it FFS?!:mad:

OhNoYouDidn't

Callan57 wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there is no problem buying loose fruit & veg in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc etc

I thought we were all in the same EU but apparently not.

Its still traceable to the farm though. The issue here is that the veg offered is not

Lenny Lovett

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its still traceable to the farm though. The issue here is that the veg offered is not

Your gas! How many times growing up did you get poisoned by vegetables prior to all the labelling and bullsh1t that you advocate is soooo important? It's no wonder the country is where it is. Really...:rolleyes: