Blue Line

graduate

I came across this http://www.blueline.ie/
This seems to be a bus proposing to use the bus lane reservation through Roebuck to join UCD to Sandyford and hence to the Dart. A sort of tram type bus is shown, this is OK in a special reservation, but is it going to bounce over the ramps on Nutley lane?
There is a need to connect UCD better, it is a significant destination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHJmbe7jmSA

The Stroller

Seems to be based of the First FTR system in the UK. First Group operate the FTR in York, Leeds and Swansea. They operate like a tram and look like a tram but are much cheaper to build.

Could have great potential at a much lower cost than a new LUAS line.

Cookie_Monster

UCD close the proposed route at rush hour to prevent rat running through the college, doesn't explain how they will get around that. whether the route will open for it somehow (auto bollards) or whether the gate will simply be left open in which case traffic will be terrible.

Any idea of fuel source, diesel?

stop

Ucd are pushing this, a flat screen and some space for promo have been allocated in the main restaurant inside the main doors.

Does it actually go all the way to Sydney parade? Reminds me a bit of route 52 on that section. Would assume it'll have it's on road for part of ucd as the video shows it going out via roebuck which is currently ped only.

ardmacha

Presumably it will cross Roebuck road on the "Eastern Bypass" reservation and hence into UCD. I imagine there could be a bus only pathway through UCD, it would be easy enough to fit a transponder for a barrier on this service which only operates on this route.

Judgement Day

The Stroller wrote: »

Seems to be based of the First FTR system in the UK. First Group operate the FTR in York, Leeds and Swansea. They operate like a tram and look like a tram but are much cheaper to build.

Could have great potential at a much lower cost than a new LUAS line.

Smacks of reinventing the wheel to me. After a while in operation some bright spark will suggest putting it on rails would make it even faster. :rolleyes:

eejoynt

yes JD it does seem strange

'buses will be attractive if they look like trams'

from the thirties onwards many trams were built in a 'modern' style to look like buses

foggy_lad

Blueline Rapid Transit Service or BRaTS sounds like a good idea for the area but is it really required as there is already so much in the area with dart luas and several high frequency busses as well as all the chelsea tractors and business persons driving tanks of cars to and from work.

is there not something else the money could be spent on like improving St. Vincents hospital to make it a real centre of excellence instead of it being called one just because the minister for health says it is?

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Blueline Rapid Transit Service or BRaTS sounds like a good idea for the area but is it really required as there is already so much in the area with dart luas and several high frequency busses as well as all the chelsea tractors and business persons driving tanks of cars to and from work.

None of these follow its route. You've comparing lines and routes that mostly go north to south with a route or line which will run east to west.

Nothing is really needed, the question is if it will add value and be cost effective.

Jehuty42

Anyone else notice the woman trying to get on a 10 bus at 2:30 only to have it pull off?

patneve2

DART, Luas, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Commuter, (Maybe metro), and now this blue line. Why can't we have 1 bloody transport agency governing all transport in the city? Simplification needed, PLEASE!

Oliver1985

It just looks like a bendy bus painted grey

dowlingm

During the discussion about DB and how they might be getting rid of bendybuses I wondered about painting them grey and having the RPA (via Veolia or some other contract) operate them with all-door boarding/proof-of-payment. I'd rather see that than yet another disconnected operation.

I'd like them to make more effort to "connect to the DART" than dumping people at St Vincent's.

Mushy

Article in yesterdays paper about it:

Irish Times wrote:

First bus rapid-transit route for Dublin would link Sydney Parade and Sandyford

FRANK McDONALD, Environment Editor

DUBLIN’S FIRST bus rapid-transit route is being planned to link the Dart station at Sydney Parade with Sandyford Business Estate, running via St Vincent’s University Hospital, the RTÉ campus at Montrose and University College Dublin in Belfield.

The proposed “Blue Line”, which could be built at a cost of €33 million – a small fraction of the estimated €5 billion price-tag for Metro North – would offer “a high quality, high-frequency, high-capacity public transport service featuring all the benefits of a fixed-rail tram system”.

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown county manager Owen Keegan described it “a very exciting development in public transport in Dublin. It can deliver a quality service, which is very close to that of light rail in terms of journey time, operating hours, frequency, reliability and comfort.”

The proposed service would carry more than 1,000 passengers per hour each way, running every six minutes at peak times and operating 18 hours a day. It would have Nantes-style bus rapid-transit vehicles similar to Luas trams, giving users easy access from multiple doors.

There would be 10 intervening stations on the line, each with real-time passenger information displays, at St Vincent’s hospital, RTÉ, UCD main gate, “UCD Central”, Roebuck Road, Mount Anville, Goatstown, Kilmacud, Stillorgan and the Luas stop at Sandyford.

Each Blue Line station would have off-board ticket machines and shelters with “comfortable seats” and lighting. And with an overall journey time estimated at 18 minutes, the line would provide a “high-quality public transport link between the Dart, bus and Luas services”.

The project is being promoted by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council in association with St Vincent’s hospital, RTÉ, UCD and Sandyford Business Estate for inclusion in the transportation strategy for Dublin being developed by the National Transport Authority.

Mr Keegan, a former director of traffic with Dublin City Council, said a detailed evaluation of the project by British transport planning consultants MVA in conjunction with Healy, Kelly, Turner & Townsend, had shown that it “offers excellent value for money” at €33 million.

Noting that it would be significantly cheaper than a Luas line, he said: “This makes it a very appropriate public investment in the current difficult economic climate”. And by offering “safe, quick and dependable journey times”, it would reduce car dependence in southeast Dublin.

It would serve the major employment centres of St Vincent’s hospital, RTÉ, UCD and Sandyford, offering “improved accessibility to work, education, retail, leisure, public facilities and other activities” as well as improving “connectivity between local communities in the area”.

According to Mr Keegan, “the appraisal undertaken to date indicates that the project is financially viable and will generate an excellent return on the investment required, with fare revenue forecasts exceeding operating costs” – unlike the rail service, for example.

He said no decision had been made about who should run the line. “Our preference is that the Railway Procurement Agency would take over the development of this technology as part of its brief – high-spec vehicles, like light rail on pneumatic wheels, to convey the right image.”

The promoters have arranged for public information centres to be located at the Dún Laoghaire and Dundrum council offices, Beacon South Quarter, UCD main campus, the reception area of St Vincent’s hospital, the main canteen of RTÉ and the Merrion Centre.

A website is also being developed to provide additional information on the project (www.blueline.ie).

This would appear it does go to the DART station.

eejoynt

so we are asked to fork out 33m for ten tarted up bus stops and a few bendy buses in drag?

what part of this megalomaniac dream cannot be achieved with existing buses and stops ?

anyone know how real time project is progressing?

AlekSmart

so we are asked (a) to fork out 33m for ten tarted up bus stops and a few bendy buses in drag?

(b) What part of this megalomaniac dream cannot be achieved with existing buses and stops ?

(c) Anyone know how real time project is progressing?

Yes eejoynt for points a & b the answer is Yes and None.

However,as is evidenced by the very slick video presentation and the involvement of Loacl Authorities there are "forces at play" here.

One of the major players I would suggest may well be the WrightBus group of Ballymena,who are a highly regarded and successful Bus and Coach bodybuilding operation.

One of their responses to the collapse of orders consequent upon the UK`s fiscal reinvention was to diversify into niche markets such as alternative power sorces with Hybrid Diesel/Electric and Fuel Cell vehicles.

As other posters have pointed out Wrights and First Group (UK) have already had a toe in the water here with the York "ftr" scheme launched on the NUmber 4 route in that city.

On the surface the Blue-Line looks rather similar to "ftr4" even sharing the same elements...University-Hospital-Resedential-Railway etc.

However the "ftr" was not without it`s problems and as somebody who was in York for the Start-Up day I was dazed,confused,exira & delira to find that there was at least one other operation capable of making an equally big Ballz-Up of things as ourselves....and then some !

Day 1 of "ftr4" was a total and absolute mess.
Vehicles breaking down.
Roadside infrastructure unfinished.
New on-board Ticketing Machines failed comprehensively to operate.
Lack of passenger Information.....and a bit more besides

(If anybody sees similarities with Network Direct Phase One,it`s totally coincidental and no Busdrivers were harmed in the making of ftr4...unlike ND1 ! )

What I see happening next is a serious PR job with the shiny new "Trammy like Buses" being brought to Merrion Square for Noel Dempsey and the NTA`s Management Elite to ooh and aah over.

At the reception afterwards they`ll probably be asked a few soft-questions along the lines of .....(c).

The answer to which is...."as well as can be expected in a programme which now involves more statutory bodies than a NASA (or should that be NAMA) landing on Mars".

We could always try to reintroduce the 52.........:)

Oliver1985

This really is a stupid idea whats the difference between this and a bus ? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::mad::mad::mad:

monument

eejoynt wrote: »

so we are asked to fork out 33m for ten tarted up bus stops and a few bendy buses in drag?

what part of this megalomaniac dream cannot be achieved with existing buses and stops ?

The plan for the €33m looks like it includes new roads for the busway across green lands and restructuring and likely widening of current roads in places. Plus stop costs would be along the lines of the costs of Luas stop (without tracks or over head cables).

Existing buses don't have as many doors, are owned by

Mushy wrote: »

Article in yesterdays paper about it:

This would appear it does go to the DART station.

Just because The Irish Times writes it that way does not mean its true. It does not quite go to the Dart station, but it ends not a million miles away.

If you go by the rough map on blueline.ie -- which shows a walking distance -- it could be as far as a 600m away from the Dart station or if the stop is near to the end of the road, that's over 300m from the station.

Oliver1985 wrote: »

This really is a stupid idea whats the difference between this and a bus ?....

It a busway and it will use buses. It has better segregation, better priority, real time electronic displays at all stops, ticket vending machines at stops, and fewer stops. The buses also have two or three doors while all of Dublin Bus' buses buses with more than one door has or is to be phased out, most of the current buses are also owned by Dublin Bus.

Why is it a really stupid idea?

IF you wan't to advocate trams, normal buses, improved QBCs or this (ie bus rapid transit), but calling one or the other stupid without explaining does not really add anything to the thread.

steamengine

Oliver1985 wrote: »

This really is a stupid idea whats the difference between this and a bus.

+1.........neither a tram or a bus, let's call it a 'Truss' - ouch!!! :eek:

ardmacha

One of the origins of this is that Dublin Bus have largely failed to cater for East West movement into UCD and hence to Vincents. The 17 bus is not seen as reliable and there are large areas of the southside where you'd have to go into town and back out to reach UCD. Of course these are not reached by this scheme either and so car travel remains the mode of choice.

antoinolachtnai

Why are so many people so down on this idea? It's trying to deliver high-spec public transport for a reasonable capital price. It's not perfect, but surely there are many good things about it?

There are BRT schemes all over the world. They are mostly not perfect. ftr, an example mentioned, has had a tough time for sure.

That example just proves that the capital required is in fact required, i.e., that you have to make an initial investment in road improvements, stations and ticketing procedures and systems to get a really good service that can fulfill the promise.

D'Peoples Voice

eejoynt wrote: »

so we are asked to fork out 33m for ten tarted up bus stops and a few bendy buses in drag?

what part of this megalomaniac dream cannot be achieved with existing buses and stops ?

anyone know how real time project is progressing?

good point, apparently it costs €170,000 for one bus stop, so are we overpaying?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055980849

AEG

There are many other cities who use Bus Rapid Transport as a cheaper version of trams and personally I think this is a positive move.

They have advantages over trams in that they are more cost effective and can be dismantled far easier than tram routes. They also have advantages over buses in that they can operate far more efficiently. I also would welcome competition like this for Dublin Bus. Do I think its a bad thing to have several different companies competing? No, as if there was one company that would give the union representing workers incredible power to bring the entire city or country to a halt. I also think either a body overseeing transport in Dublin or a Dublin Mayor with transport planning powers would be a great thing. Unfortunately the Dublin Transport Authority was changed to the National Transport Authority.

As someone who attended UCD for three years I think that it is a pity that there was a spur off the Luas to an area with in excess of 20,000 people commuting to it each day - as proposed at the time.

Ideally when Metro North is built there will be a number of BRT routes like this to 'feed' passengers into the Metro system, as happens in most other cities.

But I have to say although I think this is a positive move, I don't think this is the best route to trial a BRT on in Dublin - perhaps the 46a route as one of the busiest bus routes in the city would be better?

Godge

patneve2 wrote: »

DART, Luas, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Commuter, (Maybe metro), and now this blue line. Why can't we have 1 bloody transport agency governing all transport in the city? Simplification needed, PLEASE!

Agree completely. Just posted something similar on the infrastructure thread. No need for another type of transport in Dublin.

Who ever heard of a city with as many different types of public transport as Dublin? Sometimes I think the personal egos of various people are behind "their" scheme.

dynamick

Looks like a good idea. I wonder which of the partners was the driving force behind this idea.

Somebody mentioned that Nutley Lane wasn't an ideal bus route (AlekSmart?) Perhaps It could be widened. Along most of the route, there are the hospital lands and golf course on one side and RTE campus at the Western end.

AlekSmart

That example just proves that the capital required is in fact required, i.e., that you have to make an initial investment in road improvements, stations and ticketing procedures and systems to get a really good service that can fulfill the promise.

I think Antoin makes the strongest point here,and it`s the one which we all need to recognize has thus far been totally absent from Dublin City`s approach to it`s Public Transport. (Capital P,Capital T)

The city is awash with infrastructure of all kinds,some of the latest and most modern and some outdated and time-expired.

Yet there is absolutely no suggestion anywhere that we are going to start looking at Public Transport as an integral part of the City,just as the Water,Gas and Electricity is.

Apart from using it as a bargainaing tool or an arguement point,Dublins Public Transport suffers from a serious lack of regard...not necessarily monetary,but in terms of INTEREST !

Victor

The name is unfortunate - Metro North is the Blue Line. http://www.rpa.ie/en/Documents/interactive_map.swf

ardmacha

that you have to make an initial investment in road improvements,

This will have a reserved route for much of its journey, so will have predictable service etc. However, there are many places in Dublin where a willingness to move a back a wall or even demolish one house could greatly alleviate pinch points on bus corridors. This type of work would be good to progress in the recession, especially if bigger programmes are procrastinated.

The name is unfortunate - Metro North is the Blue Line. http://www.rpa.ie/en/Documents/interactive_map.swf

Sure that's on the northside! DLR only has a green line!

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

The name is unfortunate - Metro North is the Blue Line. http://www.rpa.ie/en/Documents/interactive_map.swf

the blues for the northside, angry voilent red for tallaght and dublin 8 area and a nice gentle soft green line for the southside:):)

loyatemu

Godge wrote: »

Agree completely. Just posted something similar on the infrastructure thread. No need for another type of transport in Dublin.

Who ever heard of a city with as many different types of public transport as Dublin? Sometimes I think the personal egos of various people are behind "their" scheme.

whilst I agree there should be a unified branding for Dublin's public transport - there's no reason not to introduce a new form of transport just because its different to what we already have.

London and Paris have Metro, Trams, Buses, and Heavy rail all serving different parts of the city - the main difference is they have unified branding and integrated ticketing and information.

steve-o

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Why are so many people so down on this idea?

For the most part it seems like a good idea, but dressing a bus up as a pantomime tram is stupid. All the other buses will make fun of it, and rightly so.

There are other ways to distinguish it from ordinary bus services without adding silly plastic add-ons.

Godge

loyatemu wrote: »

whilst I agree there should be a unified branding for Dublin's public transport - there's no reason not to introduce a new form of transport just because its different to what we already have.

London and Paris have Metro, Trams, Buses, and Heavy rail all serving different parts of the city - the main difference is they have unified branding and integrated ticketing and information.

The difference between London and Paris on one side and Dublin on the order is in the order of millions (of people) and centuries (of providing public transport). These cities are many times larger than Dublin and are really mega-cities.

Compare us to a city of comparable size and you will not see multiple types of public transport, each with relatively low passengers.

DART, Luas and Bus are enough variables for Dublin, with commuter rail for long distance. If this idea could use Dublin Bus vehicles, it would be more useful.

AEG

I think this could be the way forward for Dublin Bus on some of its most popular routes though. Think of how much faster it would be with 3 doors and tickets purchased before you get on the bus. Journey times would be significantly faster.

Plus I don't really see the problem with having another mode of transport as long as they all integrate well and allow easy transititon from one to the other. Plus having a rival like this could force DB to improve their services.

I'd like to see it partly funded by the private sector in Sandyford Industrial Estate though.

Cool Mo D

Godge wrote: »

The difference between London and Paris on one side and Dublin on the order is in the order of millions (of people) and centuries (of providing public transport). These cities are many times larger than Dublin and are really mega-cities.

Compare us to a city of comparable size and you will not see multiple types of public transport, each with relatively low passengers.

DART, Luas and Bus are enough variables for Dublin, with commuter rail for long distance. If this idea could use Dublin Bus vehicles, it would be more useful.

Paris is bigger, but how exactly has it extra centuries of public transport? Go back 100 years, and Dublin had one of the best public transport systems in Europe, with the first true suburban rail line, and a comprehensive tram network.

I don't understand the fixation with not having different types of public transport. It makes no difference to users or operators if there are 100 types if they are run as a single system, which cities all over the world manage, even if Dublin is late to the party. Worst comes to worst, and integrated ticketing happens, the blue line could be part of the Luas/RPA system, like the metro will be - no complication at all.

ardmacha

Paris is bigger, but how exactly has it extra centuries of public transport?

Tayto2000

Linking UCD to the Dart and Luas would be great, they're just beyond easy walking range.

Road trams do have some advantages over busses - mainly capacity and speed of getting on/off. It'll depend on what sort of dedicated running space it gets I think, not much point if it can get snarled in traffic, that's the main reason the no 17 is regarded as so unreliable.

Nothing wrong with new modes of transport as long as they're complementary. If integrated ticketing could arrive at the same time, it would be an amazingly useful service, especially coming in from Wicklow direction.

guano_jim

eejoynt wrote: »

so we are asked to fork out 33m for ten tarted up bus stops and a few bendy buses in drag?
what part of this megalomaniac dream cannot be achieved with existing buses and stops ?
anyone know how real time project is progressing?

hear hear....

dowlingm

Extend beyond to Sydney Parade to Sandymount Strand and build a terminus at one of the car parks at the beach.

AlekSmart

Extend beyond to Sydney Parade to Sandymount Strand and build a terminus at one of the car parks at the beach.

Jeebuz Christuz...Get me John Gormley on the red telephone...QUICK !!!!! :eek:

Dowlingm....they know where you live !!!!

graduate

I got a leaflet in my letterbox describing this distant proposal today. No sign of any leaflets describing the current Dublin Bus changes though.

dynamick

Maybe it should just continue up Merrion Rd to Merrion Square, loop around and come back. There's Bus lane most of the way.

dRNk SAnTA

I don't see why this wouldn't be called a 'Luas line'. Especially if the RPA build it. The route will look and act quite like the other luas lines, it should have the same ticketing machines and station styles.

Also, won't it be great to have an orbital green line -> dart link! Shouldn't be called Blue line though, North-Dublin metro HAS to be blue.

Edit: This bus has to continue to Sydney Parade station. I've just seen the little walking man on the proposed route map, just as there is between red and green luas line maps, I never want to see another one of those guys again. Join up the lines!!

bazzer06

Godge wrote: »

Compare us to a city of comparable size and you will not see multiple types of public transport, each with relatively low passengers.
.

Brussels, Hannover, Oslo, Helsinki, Bilbao... most cities have the same mix of heavy rail, metro, trams and buses (inc. BRT) that Dublin will have - as many have said it's a matter of integrating ticketing more than anything else, even branding. In Germany, the S Bahn/U Bahn/Tram/Bus combo is very common (in Berlin, theres even two categories of bus and tram!) and everyone gets along just fine. Why would Dublin be any different?The act is that different densities require different solutions. A line like this does more than a traditional bus route could ever do, but doesn't go quite as far as - and costs much less then - an LRT.

Also, what do you mean by "relatively low passengers"? Was that just in relation to finding a city relative to Dublin, or implying that systems such as Blue Line won't attract passengers? Because if it's the second I would say thats an untenable assumption ( and taking the 17 as proof certainly doesnt prove anything here - BRT, as someone has pointed out, is more like a Luas with regards attractiveness for possible modal change)

antoinolachtnai

In terms of area, you will find that Dublin is almost as big or even slightly larger than Paris, although it is not as dense.

dowlingm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Jeebuz Christuz...Get me John Gormley on the red telephone...QUICK !!!!! :eek:

Dowlingm....they know where you live !!!!

Gormless doesn't believe in sustainable swimming then? :rolleyes:

bazzer06

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In terms of area, you will find that Dublin is almost as big or even slightly larger than Paris, although it is not as dense.

Not true really - you're comparing the City of Paris, which represents area-wise i would say less than a tenth (if even) of the Paris urban area, also, only 2 million of paris's c. 10 million inhabitants live in "Paris"...

bit pedantic i know, but lets compare like with like!!

antoinolachtnai

If you compare the Paris Metro to the GDA, Paris is 14000km2 and Dublin is 7000km2. Sure, Paris is bigger, but the population is over 11m, 6 times larger than the GDA. However, Dublin's footprint is massive and is in the same ballpark as some of the biggest cities in the world. (This is not a good thing).That means that we need almost as many miles of transport lines as some of these very large cities. The city is also quite diverse in terms of density, so it's not surprising that a few different approaches are needed.

rockman15

i think this is a great idea.

First of all I live just beside UCD, but if I wanted to get to anywhere beyond dun laoghire or around the quays i've to get a DART. Walking to the DART takes about 25mins and is impractical. There is no way of me getting to Sandyford either. For people who commute to UCD from south of Dun Laoghire and north of Mountjoy Sq. for college or work this is the solution to their problems. Hop on the DART or Luas and bang in on this.

The key to its success is integrated ticketing. It has to be done.

Propellerhead

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you compare the Paris Metro to the GDA, Paris is 14000km2 and Dublin is 7000km2. Sure, Paris is bigger, but the population is over 11m, 6 times larger than the GDA. However, Dublin's footprint is massive and is in the same ballpark as some of the biggest cities in the world. (This is not a good thing).That means that we need almost as many miles of transport lines as some of these very large cities. The city is also quite diverse in terms of density, so it's not surprising that a few different approaches are needed.

This was always the problem with Dublin and public transport. Building houses throughout the 1970s and 1980s at four houses to the acre meant that we were stuck with infrequent and crowded double decker buses lurching into the city centre as the backbone of the public transport system. One of the reasons for the interminable birth of DART and Luas is that higher densities weren't seriously done here for years and public policy makers were stuck with the idea that rail was either a) something that the Victorians and the Edwardians did or b) were in hock to the idea that the motor car was supreme and that public transport was for the losers who couldn't afford cars.

The legacy of these attitudes was the ridiculous amount of time it took to realise ANY of the schemes in CIÉ's "Towards Rapid Transit". While commentators took pot shots at the effrontery of anyone electrifying the Howth to Bray railway and seeking to have the funds diverted towards motorways while ripping up the railways altogether, successive governments (both FitzGerald's and Haughey's various administrations) dithered other the schems and whether planning densities could be increased. In the meantime Dublin Corporation and private developers nearly destroyed the fabric of central Dublin.

Propellerhead

rockman15 wrote: »

i think this is a great idea.

First of all I live just beside UCD, but if I wanted to get to anywhere beyond dun laoghire or around the quays i've to get a DART. Walking to the DART takes about 25mins and is impractical. There is no way of me getting to Sandyford either. For people who commute to UCD from south of Dun Laoghire and north of Mountjoy Sq. for college or work this is the solution to their problems. Hop on the DART or Luas and bang in on this.

The key to its success is integrated ticketing. It has to be done.

Unless I'm mistaken, you would want to have a fairly big hop to be able to jump on a DART from St Vincents Hospital. Six hundred metres to Sydney Parade Station.

dynamick

I count less than 300m from Sydney Parade Station to the Merrion Rd junction with Nutley Lane. If you continued the blue line across to the DART station, the last 300m might take longer than walking.