Siptu- The money was just resting in our account?

bamboozle

but surely it should be very simple

Question to HSE = to whom did you agree to transfer in excess of €2.5m?
please provide back up, authorisation, corrospondence between HSE and Recipitants.

surely to God if a State body hands over 2.5 million, it did so with a paper trail & contract?

last person left in Ireland turn off the lights please.

Nijmegen

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Sorry, I keep reading that in a Jimmy Stewart voice:D

Heh

Still, you know yourself what tax you pay on your income, and what tax you pay everywhere else - on your petrol, on everything you buy in a shop.

And somebody blows all that cash on taxis to and from pubs at 3am?

dan_d

bamboozle wrote: »

but surely it should be very simple

Question to HSE = to whom did you agree to transfer in excess of €2.5m?
please provide back up, authorisation, corrospondence between HSE and Recipitants.

surely to God if a State body hands over 2.5 million, it did so with a paper trail & contract?

last person left in Ireland turn off the lights please.

That would be a reasonable assumption in any other country, where laws are followed and regulation enforced.

The HSE already admitted to the public accounts committee this morning that regulations regarding foreign travel that were brought in in 2006 were ignored (heard them speaking on the news). Therefore it's reasonable to assume that a lot of other things were ignored aswell. Piffling little things like receipts, or lodgement slips, or well...paper trails.

Having said that, it's an astronomical amount of money. Somebody - in fact more than one somebody - in there knows full well what's going on. Just heard that the account dates back 20 years (???) aswell. I wonder is this like Iarnrod Eireann - as people retired, the knowledge regarding things like bridge structures went with them, because the knowledge was in their heads, and hadn't been committed to a database or paper anywhere.Maybe this is the same - someone knew about it 20 years ago, but then they retired and well....why would you have a system where you can understand what's going on with money and accounts? It's far easier to know there's an account there, there's money in it, and it'll pay for the office christmas party. And apparently, the easter party, summer party and halloween parties too.:mad::mad:

The level of rage this is inspiring in me is outright scarey. I need to go stare at the sea, or stand in a field for a while to try and calm down.

kildarecommuter

Without getting to much of the detail of the whole thing with more coming out every day at least SIPTU are saying if it the money was spent by them they will repay it.
Its more than can be said for bankers, developers and certain politicians etc.

Nijmegen

kildarecommuter wrote: »

Without getting to much of the detail of the whole thing with more coming out every day at least SIPTU are saying if it the money was spent by them they will repay it.
Its more than can be said for bankers, developers and certain politicians etc.

I'd rather the high and mighty unions didn't have their snouts in the trough like all the rest. Truth is, they are as much a part of the golden circle as the rest, and I would bet my bottom dollar this is merely one example of such waste, junkets and crap they are cought up in.

FlutterinBantam

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0621/1224272953686.html


What a debacle!!

Looks like we were paying for a bunch of Union dudes and HSE honchos and their spouses to travel on various trips for 'educational purposes' ?.


As far as I can see ,no reports on the value of these trips ever came to light.

The old ' slush fund' used to oil the wheels of industry and use hard earned taxpayers money to check for 'reforms' which are usually only paper exercises anyway but need a trip or two to Australia to rubber stamp.

I believe that this is fairly prevelant in the highly unionised semi states where in the past ,I'm led to believe, before any new equipment was 'approved' it needed a delegation of Union heads to visit the factory, usually in Florida for a week and the golf clubs always travelled.;)

Wasy to see why O'Leary doesn't want to touch those people with a 737 tow-bar

Poly

I remember 10-15 years ago when the nurses from Our Lady's were on strike. they picketed outside Crumlin hosp on their days off ( while still looking after the kids). The unions sold them down the river, this confirms what many of them suspected. Unions cannot be trusted.

murphaph

Nijmegen wrote: »

I'd rather the high and mighty unions didn't have their snouts in the trough like all the rest. Truth is, they are as much a part of the golden circle as the rest, and I would bet my bottom dollar this is merely one example of such waste, junkets and crap they are cought up in.

Totally agree.

The so called social partners (govt, public sector and semi state (vast majority anyway, hardly any "normal" employees were represented) unions, IBEC and God knows who else) have basically been conspiring against the ordinary PAYE employee or small business owner for their own sleazy benefit. We've been well and truly shafted by these cretins, all of them.

Seth Brundle

Let me guess:
* people will be outraged with this for a few days
* reports of investigations, reports punishments, etc. will be said to the public to appease the anger
* another distraction will come along in a few days to outrage the public and they will generally forget about this
* no proper investgations will result
* nobody will be sacked
* some people may retire early on generous packages

Am I wrong in my predictions?

5live

kbannon wrote: »

Let me guess:
* people will be outraged with this for a few days
* reports of investigations, reports punishments, etc. will be said to the public to appease the anger
* another distraction will come along in a few days to outrage the public and they will generally forget about this
* no proper investgations will result
* nobody will be sacked
* some people may retire early on generous packages

Am I wrong in my predictions?

Ah, no? Could you PM me the lotto numbers for tonight while you are on line and i will split the 100 million with you? Coz you aint wrong on that post:(

Banned Account

To be perfectly honest, this whole affair sickens me. On the union side, we have a numberof people heading up various unions in the country, all of whom earn generous six figure salaries.

They regularly come out and criticise our politicians for being out of touch with the economic realities due to their 'bloated salaries'. A fair proportion of these people also sat on boards of FAS, Aer Lingus, AIB etc etc and make no apologies or reference to that.

Furthermore, we now have a situation whereby SIPTU is willing to hold up it's hands to the tune of €350,000 for money wasted by persons afilliated to it - this is a union funded by the subs of those whom it professes to represent.

Here's an idea, why not take the money that was wasted and squandered and return it to your members with a big apology for allowing theiving hans to be stuck into their pockets in the first place?

The hipocrasy is unbelievable.

Tora Bora

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, this whole affair sickens me. On the union side, we have a numberof people heading up various unions in the country, all of whom earn generous six figure salaries.

They regularly come out and criticise our politicians for being out of touch with the economic realities due to their 'bloated salaries'. A fair proportion of these people also sat on boards of FAS, Aer Lingus, AIB etc etc and make no apologies or reference to that.

Furthermore, we now have a situation whereby SIPTU is willing to hold up it's hands to the tune of €350,000 for money wasted by persons afilliated to it - this is a union funded by the subs of those whom it professes to represent.

Here's an idea, why not take the money that was wasted and squandered and return it to your members with a big apology for allowing theiving hans to be stuck into their pockets in the first place?

The hipocrasy is unbelievable.

It has been quite noticable how quiet the beards have become over the last 6 monts or so. I mentioned that on here several times. I get more and more suspicious as the days go by, that these guys are sitting on a great big time bomb, which is going to of off in a series of small explosions, to lay bare their hairy snouts in lots of different troughs at the tax payers and members expense.

jmayo

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, this whole affair sickens me. On the union side, we have a numberof people heading up various unions in the country, all of whom earn generous six figure salaries.

They regularly come out and criticise our politicians for being out of touch with the economic realities due to their 'bloated salaries'. A fair proportion of these people also sat on boards of FAS, Aer Lingus, AIB etc etc and make no apologies or reference to that.

Furthermore, we now have a situation whereby SIPTU is willing to hold up it's hands to the tune of €350,000 for money wasted by persons afilliated to it - this is a union funded by the subs of those whom it professes to represent.

Here's an idea, why not take the money that was wasted and squandered and return it to your members with a big apology for allowing theiving hans to be stuck into their pockets in the first place?

The hipocrasy is unbelievable.

Excuse me comrade that money does not belong to the members of the union, but to the IRISH TAXPAYERS.

Return it to the exchequer, not the HSE who helped in this deception and probable fraud.

Tora Bora

Banned Account

jmayo wrote: »

Excuse me comrade that money does not belong to the members of the union, but to the IRISH TAXPAYERS.

Return it to the exchequer, not the HSE who helped in this deception and probable fraud.

Probably didn't make myself too clear - the €350,000 SIPTU have pledged to cover the misappropriated money is the members money.

The €350,000 misappropriated is the taxpayers money - let those who squandered it have to pay it back in full, every last red cent - let the HSE have to pursue them for it as a punsihment for giving it to them in the first place.

How do idiots consistently get to positions of power in this country?

The mind boggles.

wiseguy

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

How do idiots consistently get to positions of power in this country?

Because we let them

macannrb

kbannon wrote: »

Let me guess:
* people will be outraged with this for a few days
* reports of investigations, reports punishments, etc. will be said to the public to appease the anger
* another distraction will come along in a few days to outrage the public and they will generally forget about this
* no proper investgations will result
* nobody will be sacked
* some people may retire early on generous packages

Am I wrong in my predictions?

Oh you forgot one, no reform of controls surrounding payments, bank accounts or responsibility of your actions

Seth Brundle

macannrb wrote: »

Oh you forgot one, no reform of controls surrounding payments, bank accounts or responsibility of your actions

Sure isn't that something that can be taken for granted?

macannrb

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Probably didn't make myself too clear - the €350,000 SIPTU have pledged to cover the misappropriated money is the members money.

The €350,000 misappropriated is the taxpayers money

I'm not sure that is the case according to the irish independent its far larger then the 350k

To me, its sounds like the money in the account was money given to the union as a union, so really the union should pay it back.

And unfortunately its the members who elect the officials, and the members who should also insist proper controls. So in some part they should shoulder the responsibility

P. Breathnach

macannrb wrote: »

I'm not sure that is the case according to the irish independent its far larger then the 350k

To me, its sounds like the money in the account was money given to the union as a union, so really the union should pay it back.

And unfortunately its the members who elect the officials, and the members who should also insist proper controls. So in some part they should shoulder the responsibility

There is a gap in your argument that has yet to be bridged. The HSE records seem to suggest that the money went to SIPTU; SIPTU's records seem to suggest that it did not receive the money. It looks as if the money went into an account that was controlled by a group of people connected with SIPTU. That's a significant distinction, and the details need to be teased out.

Head The Wall

We'll have to agree though there's something rotten in all camps related to this

P. Breathnach

Head The Wall wrote: »

We'll have to agree though there's something rotten in all camps related to this

It looks like there is something rotten, all right, and it is important that the facts come out.

I think that the word used by Fitzcaraldo used is the right one: misappropriated. I would use the word in its narrowest sense for the time being: the money was put in the wrong place. It might emerge later that money was spent dishonestly (which I don't believe, but I await the facts) or recklessly and extravagantly (which I suspect is what happened, but I still need the facts).

Head The Wall

It was put in the wrong place on purpose though is what I would tend to believe. Tora Bora got an infraction for one of his pictures but it is entirely appropriate for what went on here.

There is no possible way this can be misconstrued to be anything other than theft, fraud and deception

jdivision

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

How do idiots consistently get to positions of power in this country?

Because we elect them and in the case of the unelected they're entitled to promotion after a certain amount of time

dfbemt

I've an idea for a new play called Bertie or Biffo or Mary or ..... Some of the purists may recognise it.

Dim the lights, silence, curtains....

Act I Scene IV

Lenny:
He waxes desperate with imagination.

Inda:
Let's follow. 'Tis not fit thus to obey him.

Lenny:
Have after. To what issue will this come?

Inda:
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark Ireland.
Lenny:
Heaven will direct it.
Inda:
Nay, let's follow him.

P. Breathnach

Head The Wall wrote: »

It was put in the wrong place on purpose though is what I would tend to believe. Tora Bora got an infraction for one of his pictures but it is entirely appropriate for what went on here.

There is no possible way this can be misconstrued to be anything other than theft, fraud and deception

Is there anything wrong with seeking the facts before making a judgement?

SkepticOne

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is there anything wrong with seeking the facts before making a judgement?

Except that the alleged wrongdoers are the ones conducting the investigation.

P. Breathnach

SkepticOne wrote: »

Except that the alleged wrongdoers are the ones conducting the investigation.

That's not a fair representation of what is happening.

One of the alleged wrongdoers is the HSE. Their internal auditors discovered questionable transactions and disclosed them. The matter is before the PAC and, I infer, is also with the CAG.

There is an allegation that SIPTU is involved, and allegation that SIPTU refutes. This allegation is in the public domain, and they have refuted the allegation in the same forum. They have indicated clearly that they intend to co-operate with any enquiry.

While the matter is in the public domain, and SIPTU is being criticised by some and judged by others, should they be obliged to say nothing?

Head The Wall

If the guys that were involved in this were not members of SIPTU then this probably would not have been able to happen. So whether it wants to or not SIPTU is involved in it. It's noty a case of deciding were they or were they not, but a case of how and to what extent was SIPTU involved

SkepticOne

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is an allegation that SIPTU is involved, and allegation that SIPTU refutes. This allegation is in the public domain, and they have refuted the allegation in the same forum. They have indicated clearly that they intend to co-operate with any enquiry.

While the matter is in the public domain, and SIPTU is being criticised by some and judged by others, should they be obliged to say nothing?

It is this side of things rather than the HSE that I'm concerned about. You say we should wait for all the facts to emerge, however the process by which the facts will emerge appears to be an internal investigation carried out be the union itself.

Nowhere did I say that the SIPTU should be obliged to say nothing, by the way. If anything, their silence is the problem. The questions that need to be answered are:

1. If they had nothing do do with these bank accounts, how come they are now in control of them?

2. Why didn't they hand back the money as soon as they came into control of the bank accounts?

3. Why didn't they call the gardaí when they became aware of these irregularities?

Now they are not obliged to answer these questions in public but in keeping silent they and those who defend them can't complain when there's speculation by others on the internet.