Are shotguns with pistolgrip illegal or not

Norwayviking

Are shotguns with pistolgrip or tactical look illegal,or classed as restricted?
seen the fabarm sat8 for sale at may-mac.
I know the German army uses them,although its a modified version.
Just gettin a bit confused!!!!!!!!:eek:

rrpc

Norwayviking wrote: »

Are shotguns with pistolgrip or tactical look illegal,or classed as restricted?
Just seen a fabarm with pistolgrip for sale on the boards,and seen them for sale at may-mac.
I know the German army uses them,although its a modified version.
Just gettin a bit confused!!!!!!!!:eek:

Restricted.

(1) Firearms other than those to which subparagraph (2) relates are declared to be restricted firearms for the purposes of the Act:
(2) This subparagraph relates to the following firearms:
(a) single-shot or repeating short firearms capable of discharging only blank ammunition;
(b) shotguns manufactured, adapted or modified so as to render them incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges, but not to shotguns—
(i) with a detached, folding or telescopic stock, or
(ii) with a pistol grip, or

Norwayviking

rrpc wrote: »

Restricted.

I presume it will be same for semi auto as well..Thanks.
And i am not buying one.A o/u sporter will do me fine.
Just read some threads here on the boards that they might be illegal.

Sparks

Norwayviking wrote: »

I presume it will be same for semi auto as well..Thanks.
And i am not buying one.Just read some threads here on the boards that they might be illegal.

No, semi-autos are unrestricted so long as they're less than three cartridges in capacity. Over that, yes, they're restricted.

Norwayviking

Sparks wrote: »

No, semi-autos are unrestricted so long as they're less than three cartridges in capacity. Over that, yes, they're restricted.

Thanks Spark.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

............ as they're less than three cartridges in capacity...............

Hate to sound like a Pedantic Pat, but is it not "3 or less" instead of "less than 3". I know its a simple turn on words, but an important one all the same.










( i'm gonna get banned now for correcting a mod :D)

Sparks

ezridax wrote: »

Hate to sound like a Pedantic Pat, but is it not "3 or less" instead of "less than 3". I know its a simple turn on words, but an important one all the same.

D'oh. Yup, correct.

( i'm gonna get banned now for correcting a mod :D)

You'd be the first...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

D'oh. Yup, correct.

You'd be the first...

I've just quoted the entire thing above and yet you both manage to get it wrong :eek:

incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

I've just quoted the entire thing above and yet you both manage to get it wrong :eek:
incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges

I think ezri was using my wording instead of quoting the act rrpc...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

I think ezri was using my wording instead of quoting the act rrpc...

To continue the pedantry; it's an SI and not an Act

And I did note that he used the same phraseology, but seeing as he was admitting to pedantry himself...

Apologies to Norwayviking, but at least your question was answered...

...to within an inch of its life

Norwayviking

rrpc wrote: »

To continue the pedantry; it's an SI and not an Act

And I did note that he used the same phraseology, but seeing as he was admitting to pedantry himself...

Apologies to Norwayviking, but at least your question was answered...

...to within an inch of its life

He he no need to apologize mate.I got the answers i wanted lol

Grizzly 45

"with a pistol grip" All shotguns have some form of pistolgrip built into the stock.Abit vauge this.Do they mean with just a pistol grip ala the Mossberg "Cruiser"??

meathstevie

Think they do Grizzly, sort of like the handgrip for the trigger hand you'd see on assault rifles and submachine guns.

Bananaman

They may also have meant shotguns that only have a pistol grip but no stock

the purpose is to be vague enough to cover 'idontlikedalookodat'

B'Man

pedroeibar1

Restricted.

The Fabarm button on the Maymac site is a re-direct to the Fabarm site. Regardless of pistol grip or otherwise, the gun is restricted because it has a telescopic stock. Ugly looking yoke, too.
Rs
P.

Grizzly 45

Be intresting then when they drag a disabled shooter into court,as many of those guns have odd shaped "pistol gripped " stocks,prodruding from the buttstock.Not to mind many DTL trapsemi auto guns have now got these odd shaped stocks.They only cost about 4grand mind.:rolleyes:

The ammo limit is vauge as well.Suppose your gun takes 3 3in or 3.5in Magnums.Three shots,what happens if it is loaded hypothecially with "mini rounds"IE cut down to 1in loads for competition shooting.They look abit like blank 12Ga shells,for those who have never seen them..In theoy you could load 9 of these into a gun capable of firing 3 in rounds.Wether the gun works is another thing.But whenever has functionality been a excuse here.??:rolleyes:Just one to watch out for...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be intresting then when they drag a disabled shooter into court,as many of those guns have odd shaped "pistol gripped " stocks,prodruding from the buttstock.Not to mind many DTL trapsemi auto guns have now got these odd shaped stocks.They only cost about 4grand mind.:rolleyes:

At the time (and this predates the FCP), the Minister of the day was trying to ban "Assault Shotguns". I'm not even going to try to guess what he meant by that. It very nearly applied to all rifles as well as all shotguns.

what happens if it is loaded hypothecially with "mini rounds"IE cut down to 1in loads for competition shooting

What happens is that you're deemed to have used your firearm in a way not permitted by your licence and you're then stuffed. That is, assuming someone is interested enough to check (and frankly, if they are, they're probably also interested enough to prosecute).
It's precisely the same thing as speeding while driving. You have a car that can go faster than 120kph, but the law clearly states you may never do so, under any circumstances (on a public road). If caught doing so, it's you that's held responsible, not the manufacturer of the car...

rrpc

This is starting to sound more than a little Pythonesque

"...then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached..."

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

hat happens is that you're deemed to have used your firearm in a way not permitted by your licence and you're then stuffed. That is, assuming someone is interested enough to check (and frankly, if they are, they're probably also interested enough to prosecute).

Ahem..Not Quite the point I was trying to make Sparks.:p
More that there isnt a definition of what a shotgun cartridge length actually IS!We ASSume that this refers to the "standard" 2.5 to 2&3/4 in shell,but...
They can range from 3.5ins down to 1.5 ins nowadays.Logically of course you are responsible in what you put in your gun and how fast you drive your car.
BUT the point is that maybe [hypothecially] somday,somone might take a disliking to somone out there in the PTB ,and decide to "get you".
[And DONT SAY this will NEVER happen,odder things have and we have plenty of documented cases now of Garda ballistics officers twisting the truth in courts of law in this land.]and "prove" that your perfectly unrestricted 3shot can suddenly take 6shots ,depending on the ammo they shove into it! Again,just one to watch out for.

Sparks

See, the thing is Grizzly, there's a small bit tucked into section 3 of the Act that says:

A person who—
(a) knowingly gives false or misleading information to an issuing person in relation to an application for a firearm certificate or for its renewal,
...
is guilty of an offence and liable—
(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €2,500 or imprisonment or a term not exceeding 6 months or both, or
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €20,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

In other words, you applied for the licence knowing what the shotgun would be used for and got the licence on that basis. If you then turn round and use smaller ammo in it, it's on you, not the gardai or the lack of definition of a "standard" length for a cartridge (which you couldn't do anyway unless you made all non-standard-length ammo restricted which would be sub-optimal from our point of view).

I think though, that this isn't really going to make it to the list of top twenty problems with the Firearms Acts anytime soon

Grizzly 45

And there is also a thing called human nature and abuse of power and position and "fitting up" people,to look better with their superiors for whatever reason.
IOW,yes your own fault if you abuse your liscense conditions,and are caught out.Like if you drive at over 120kph..
But what LAW is there there to stop a PTB type from saying "Yes your honour I found Mr Sparks in possesion of a 6 shotgun when his liscense is for an unrestricted 3shot." I shall demonstrate to the court thussly.[Shoving in 1.5in minis]"there six shots m'Lud..State rests the case!"
Who are 12 good men and true going to belive?You or an honest PTB type who has demonstrated before their own eyes that the gun can take six cartridges??Doesnt say it was cartridges FOUND IN YOUR POSSESION!Does it??
All I'm pointing out is;there is possibility of potential abuse as the legislation stands.Not that it WILL happen,HAS happened or would be considerd by the PTB,and as you said a rather moot firearms act problem.

Sparks

Grizzly, you need to watch a little less Bruckheimer. First off, actually loading a shotgun in court with six shells? I know folks say the DCs are cowboy courts, but that's a bit of hyperbole dependant on comparison with the High and Supreme Courts.

Secondly, the whole point of court is that you also get to argue your case; to whit, every round of ammunition you purchase is (in theory at least) tracable through gun dealer records. If you state you never purchased those mini rounds and the records show you never did so, then the officer has to prove you did so illegally.

And thirdly the witness doesn't rest the case for the prosecution, even in Bruckheimer-land. That kind of exaggeration isn't really useful here because now we don't know what was part of your actual argument and what was "poetic licence" (or "lying" as we call it when a TD or a Garda does it...).

Bananaman

We have spent long enough arguing that we license firearms for the purpose for which we requested the license - nothing more - regardless of what they are capable of or what they could be used for.

I, for one, do not want to hear any more hypothetical waffling - if i sawed off the stock I could store it <mod edit: in a small space> - or - I could make shells out of toilet rolls and then get more in.

It's irrelevant - because you are NOT ALLOWED.

B'Man

rrpc

Seriously Grizzly you have long since left the wall and are buzzing around the light fixture in ever decreasing circles...

3 standard shells for that bore of shotgun. If you put something smaller in for the purpose of being <mod edit: daft>, then it's your own look out. Playing hypothetical court dramas out in your head involving some hypothetical killjoy whose only purpose is to play silly buggers with you is really stretching credibility beyond breaking point.

Grizzly 45

Sparks ,Bananaman & RRPC.
I am going to address this to you all three.
1] I dont watch Bruckheimers stuff because it is total and utter CRAP!
2]I think there have been times when you all three have trumpted that things will never happen ,wont happen or cant happen and have been all proven very wrong in actuality.
3] I think unless you all have been living under a rock for the last few years are suffering from total NAIVEITY to think a situation like that COULDNT happen .
4]
Sparks,you could really do with actually going into a court of law and stop being so pendantic and have to be 100% right everytime.You and I know DAMN well there are things as empty rounds for demo purposes and what not.I would love to see you argue some vagarecies about wether you bought some type of ammo or not after somone has proven to a bunch of woodentops that it CAN be done.If you were my lawyer and you were going to argue that point.I'd be better off defending myself.

If you belive that the Gaurds,or whomever will play by the rules and would NEVER contemplate doing somthing like this,well then I suggest you three get a serious dose of reality,and view what sort of BS lies and deciet has been presented in evidence in our courts regarding firearms over the last 18 months.Personally I wouldnt trust the ANY of the Gardai as far as I could throw them anymore.But if you chose to belive it is fine and dandy and they will always play by the rules in court and with the firearms laws..Well thats your beer.
4] I,RESENT your tone of your posts.:mad::mad::mad:?That is the height of ignorance,and I would have expected better from you three!If you cant say somthing nice,say nothing at all.Especially YOU Sparks have accused me of lying!! considering that this was a hypothecial post.I really resent that and demand a full apology
So please have the last word.I couldnt be arsed arguing the toss anymore .

Sparks

I don't think this can go anywhere productive, so I'm closing it before the shouting match.