If One of the Main Theistic Religions Had To Be True.....

strobe

padma wrote: »

I've pondered whether to post here because when I read in the atheist forums I'm always taking aback by the anger and hatred which can be found in here, but anyway. The poll is interesting if for example we all want to have a true religion, it would have to be this.

4 blind men in different villages in different parts of the world want to know what an elephant is like. The 1st Blind man goes to the front of the elephant and feels the trunk and tusks and pats the head, run backs to the village and tells everyone about the elephant. Wow long nose sharp tusk, little beard tongue etc.

2nd blind man approaches the elephant from the side wow Massive ears big strong legs and hoof, runs back to the village describing the curves on the elephant etc.

3rd blind man feels a big massive belly and the back legs. Back to the village telling everyone wow its so huge, massive the spine is hard the belly is soft the legs are tough like tree trunks etc.

The 4th blind man feels the tail smells something funny the back legs etc runs back to the village telling everyone about the smell etc etc.

See it's all the one elephant but each of them only have a different description of the elephant. That is religion. That is why people are divided, because their leader/teacher told them this was God, this other teacher says no this is God and so on so forth. Yet they all have a part of the truth.

So in answer to the poll. I believe in the elephant being the true description :P

Scoobali doobuli bobali doop?

ColmDawson

padma wrote: »

Have a hug, Im truly sorry if I offended you.

Thank you for the e-hug, but I have not been offended. I showed you a flaw in your argument and you got rather silly.

padma

WeeBushy wrote: »

That's lovely and all, but it brings us right back to the beginning. You can prove the elephant exists, so of course you'd want to get to know it (fascinating creatures are elephants). But you can't prove that god exists, instead you're following your irrational "Heart". No idea why you continue to call it that btw. Its simply an illogical brain function. Why would you, as a seemingly intelligent person, be so irrational in this aspect of your life but not any others?

I don't understand it this way I see it a different way I see the brain as the illogical one who argues, judges, overanalyses, is prone to negative thought patterns, believes everything it believes because it is as far as the knowledge it has required. Whereas I see the spiritual Heart as the connection to the Source of Love and Light/God in others beliefs. the Heart being the vessel of the True Self, the very true nature of man itself. From this understanding my view of the world would be very different from those who do not have this view. The Elephant is the metaphor for the Source of Love and Light.

jayzusb.christ

To be fair to Padma, I have found it hugely beneficial in the past to breathe deeply and let go of thoughts (Yep, i bought a book about meditation). It's a refreshing mental exercise and is for me a good way to detach from the emotions caused by mental activity. It does indeed bring a sense of stillness and peace. Buddhists have been doing it for centuries. (But like the Buddhists, I don't equate the feeling with the worship of a god.)

ColmDawson

padma wrote: »

I don't understand it this way I see it a different way I see the brain as the illogical one who argues, judges, overanalyses, is prone to negative thought patterns, believes everything it believes because it is as far as the knowledge it has required. Whereas I see the spiritual Heart as the connection to the Source of Love and Light/God in others beliefs. the Heart being the vessel of the True Self, the very true nature of man itself. From this understanding my view of the world would be very different from those who do not have this view. The Elephant is the metaphor for the Source of Love and Light.

That isn't how your mammal body functions. Your brain is what is capable of thought (logical and illogical). Your heart distributes blood around your body.

Do you think your view is valid just because it appeals to you on some 'spiritual' (shudder) level? Do facts matter? Does evidence matter?

WeeBushy

padma wrote: »

I don't understand it this way I see it a different way I see the brain as the illogical one who argues, judges, overanalyses, is prone to negative thought patterns, believes everything it believes because it is as far as the knowledge it has required. Whereas I see the spiritual Heart as the connection to the Source of Love and Light/God in others beliefs. the Heart being the vessel of the True Self, the very true nature of man itself. From this understanding my view of the world would be very different from those who do not have this view. The Elephant is the metaphor for the Source of Love and Light.

So the part of your brain that analyses, judges and argues is illogical. Wow.

And pray tell, this 'spiritual Heart' side of things, what brought you to this idea? It wasn't based on anything rational obviously.

Turtwig

padma wrote: »

I see the spiritual Heart as the connection to the Source of Love and Light/God in others beliefs. the Heart being the vessel of the True Self, the very true nature of man itself.

What about the "Ought Self" and "Want Self"?

"Ought Self"- Who the culture around you thinks you ought to be.
"Want Self" -Who you, yourself, desires to be.

Where do these notions or desires come from the spiritual heart or the brain?

padma

WeeBushy wrote: »

So the part of your brain that analyses, judges and argues is illogical. Wow.

And pray tell, this 'spiritual Heart' side of things, what brought you to this idea? It wasn't based on anything rational obviously.

So arguing is logical?

What brought me to this experience was experiencing it. Everyone has a Heart, Buddhist, Christian, Atheist, Islamist all Humans have a Heart and that's why it is so special it is what connects us towards one another closer than our thoughts, ideas, belief systems, music we listen to etc. Think of it if you are a goth are you attracted to a nikey tracksuit head? No because your identity of being different to that person seperates you from probably ever getting to know that person properly. That is your brain judging that person by the clothes they wear. Is that logical? It's the same with different religious groups and how they look upon one another, similar to rich versus poor. Its the illusion of brain dominating your actions. The more and more people open their Heart the closer towards one another you become as you see people as your siblings of the Heart rather than as seperate/different from you. This is the way of The Heart

padma

Malty_T wrote: »

What about the "Ought Self" and "Want Self"?

"Ought Self"- Who the culture around you thinks you ought to be.
"Want Self" -Who you, yourself, desires to be.

Where do these notions or desires come from the spiritual heart or the brain?

Never heard of them before Malty_T perhaps you could share with us what you perceive them to be. My guess though is they are your ego, desiring to be something in the case of your wants. And your ought self seems to be some paranoid worry about what others think of you. Am I correct? Or to be more precise what culture thinks you ought to be. Maybe some collective thoughts or sthg, I'm not a brainy person :P:D

padma

ColmDawson wrote: »

That isn't how your mammal body functions. Your brain is what is capable of thought (logical and illogical). Your heart distributes blood around your body.

Do you think your view is valid just because it appeals to you on some 'spiritual' (shudder) level? Do facts matter? Does evidence matter?

Just to clear the air, I am talking about the spiritual Heart not the Heart organ. The spiritual Heart is located at the centre of your chest at the level of your armpit. Unfortunately you can't see it, but there is a way you can feel it Colm.

Improbable

padma wrote: »

Just to clear the air, I am talking about the spiritual Heart not the Heart organ. The spiritual Heart is located at the centre of your chest at the level of your armpit. Unfortunately you can't see it, but there is a way you can feel it Colm.

This is not proof, evidence, reasoning, logic or even the end result of a coherent thought process. It might as well be gibberish for all the truth value in it.

padma

Improbable wrote: »

This is not proof, evidence, reasoning, logic or even the end result of a coherent thought process. It might as well be gibberish for all the truth value in it.

That is your brain making that judgement.

Turtwig

Ahh so we do have a dualist.

Improbable

padma wrote: »

That is your brain making that judgement.

Yes, I use my brain.

So you believe that your spiritual heart exists because your spiritual heart tells you that it does?

padma

Improbable wrote: »

Yes, I use my brain.

So you believe that your spiritual heart exists because your spiritual heart tells you that it does?

? That is a strange question Improbable. It almost seems like the spiritual Heart is an alien or sthg. Or some other voice inside or sthg. That is not the spiritual Heart, for sure if you hear a voice not of the normal inner voice you may need to see a doctor.

To explain about the spiritual Heart is akin to trying to describe what a mars bar tastes like to someone who has never tasted the mars bar. It is pointless yet what I have shared with you is that it is the centre of peace calmness, happiness and Joy. And is the key to our connection to the Source of Love and Light, which a lot of folk here have a lack of belief in.

Improbable

padma wrote: »

? That is a strange question Improbable. It almost seems like the spiritual Heart is an alien or sthg. Or some other voice inside or sthg. That is not the spiritual Heart, for sure if you hear a voice not of the normal inner voice you may need to see a doctor.

To explain about the spiritual Heart is akin to trying to describe what a mars bar tastes like to someone who has never tasted the mars bar. It is pointless yet what I have shared with you is that it is the centre of peace calmness, happiness and Joy. And is the key to our connection to the Source of Love and Light, which a lot of folk here have a lack of belief in.

I notice you haven't actually answered the question though... And I can feel peace, calmness, happiness, joy and love without believing in this "spiritual heart". But I would really like an answer to the question.

padma

Improbable wrote: »

I notice you haven't actually answered the question though... And I can feel peace, calmness, happiness, joy and love without believing in this "spiritual heart". But I would really like an answer to the question.

this being your question. (So you believe that your spiritual heart exists because your spiritual heart tells you that it does?)


The answer to your question is No, the spiritual Heart does not tell me that it exists

Improbable

So why do you believe that it exists?

padma

The truth to your question is I don't believe it exists I know

Improbable

No, you believe that you know. Which is still belief. But let's stop avoiding the question. How do you know?

padma

Improbable wrote: »

No, you believe that you know. Which is still belief. But let's stop avoiding the question. How do you know?

I haven't avoided the question I've directly answered the question. As to how do I know. the answer to that would be because it's where I live all the time or at least most of the time when i;m not busy with my wants thoughts etc.
So in the same sense you may say you live in your head/brain or mind. From a number of years practising and then finally using the Heart I say am now living in the Heart I know it's there, like you know where your thoughts brain are. Does this fully answer your question?

Improbable

padma wrote: »

I haven't avoided the question I've directly answered the question. As to how do I know. the answer to that would be because it's where I live all the time or at least most of the time when i;m not busy with my wants thoughts etc.
So in the same sense you may say you live in your head/brain or mind. From a number of years practising and then finally using the Heart I say am now living in the Heart I know it's there, like you know where your thoughts brain are. Does this fully answer your question?

Clearly it doesn't even come close to even attempting to answer it in any meaningful way... But I've given up now. Good night.

padma

Improbable wrote: »

Clearly it doesn't even come close to even attempting to answer it in any meaningful way... But I've given up now. Good night.

Oiche Mhaith

strobe

padma wrote: »

Oiche Mhaith

An bhfuil céad agam dul amach go dtí an leithreas más é do thoil é.

Now you go....

liamw

Improbable wrote: »

Clearly it doesn't even come close to even attempting to answer it in any meaningful way... But I've given up now. Good night.

Is that your brain telling you to give up or your spiritual heart?

Morbert

Judaism

Universalist Apocatastasis Christianity

The other big religions sound way too dodgy. If it is a reality that even one person has to spend eternity in hell (regardless of how many get to spend eternity with God), then reality is terrible.